The weather finally warmed up enough for some pattern testing and I've been taking full advantage. Over the past two days, I've fired close to 20 Turkey shells through my Mossberg 535 through 4 different choke tubes.
After reading about the cracking problems with Indian Creek chokes I've been keeping a real close eye on mine after each shot. Today after firing a Federal Mag Shok 3.5-2-6 lead shell with the flite control wad I noticed a crack near the muzzle end of my Indian Creek BDS #0001 choke.
The total round count through this choke was 10 rounds.
3 field loads 2.75"-1 1/8 ounce of #6 lead.
2 Hevi 13 loads of 3-2-7 (awesome patterns BTW)
5 Federal Mag Shok's 3.5-2-#6
I've already spoke personally with Mike Ponder at Indian Creek and he's been super to deal with. I explained that my turkey season starts on April 18 and I still have some pattern testing to do. He told me to send my defective choke in and he will send me a new upgraded Stainless Steel model today.
While it sucks that my current choke puked with so few rounds through it, I'm happy to see Indian Creek standing behind their product and sending me a new choke without even receiving the bad one.
Well done Indian Creek :thanks:
Here's a couple pic's of the failure which looks pretty typical from what I've already seen this spring. BTW, my choke was purchased at the Auburn Hills, Michigan Bass Pro Shops retail store on 2/12/11.
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1dd11b3127ccefce81117455a00000030O08AbtG7Jm2buQe3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1dd11b3127ccefce927c865d200000030O08AbtG7Jm2buQe3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Hate that for you but glad to see IC making it right!
glad they are taking care of you, that is the very reason i went with pure gold i just dont like the idea of the long ports, it looks to me like some of the fairy dust pellets from hevi could could get in between them dont know if they could just a thought
Them dadgum flight control wads are so bada$$ that they turn Indian Creeks into Indian Cracks, yo!
Quote from: slickyboyboo on March 30, 2011, 04:42:33 PM
They do warn, not to shoot any of the Fed FC Wads with those chokes.
X2..
Quote from: slickyboyboo on March 30, 2011, 04:42:33 PM
They do warn, not to shoot any of the Fed FC Wads with those chokes.
Here's the warning right from their site.
**DO NOT USE FEDERAL FLIGHT CONTROL Heavy Loads. Manufacturer does not recommend use with Ported Choke Tubes such as the Black Diamond Strike.**
I was shooting plain 'ol copper plated lead. Not the Federal Heavyweight stuff.
Quote from: mcgruff1533 on March 30, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
Today after firing a Federal Mag Shok 3.5-2-6 lead shell with the flite control wad
The total round count through this choke was 10 rounds.
You did state in your first post "flight control wad"....but you are correct that the "MAG SHOK" load does not use the F C wad.
Not sure if these shells are a non-standard production run or not, but here's what the box says.
Federal Premium
Mag-Shok Lead
12 ga 3-1/2 inches, 2 oz shot, #6 shot
"Featuring Flite Control Wad"
These shells are most definitely NOT Heavyweight's, and they do have the FCW.
Quote from: drum817 on March 30, 2011, 05:33:49 PM
Quote from: mcgruff1533 on March 30, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
Today after firing a Federal Mag Shok 3.5-2-6 lead shell with the flite control wad
The total round count through this choke was 10 rounds.
You did state in your first post "flight control wad"....but you are correct that the "MAG SHOK" load does not use the F C wad.
Quote from: mcgruff1533 on March 30, 2011, 05:42:01 PM
Not sure if these shells are a non-standard production run or not, but here's what the box says.
Federal Premium
Mag-Shok Lead
12 ga 3-1/2 inches, 2 oz shot, #6 shot
"Featuring Flite Control Wad"
These shells are most definitely NOT Heavyweight's, and they do have the FCW.
Quote from: drum817 on March 30, 2011, 05:33:49 PM
Quote from: mcgruff1533 on March 30, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
Today after firing a Federal Mag Shok 3.5-2-6 lead shell with the flite control wad
The total round count through this choke was 10 rounds.
You did state in your first post "flight control wad"....but you are correct that the "MAG SHOK" load does not use the F C wad.
Then federal must have changed it because the Mag Shok I looked at the other day does not have the F C wad...BUT evidently yours does. It IS the F C wad that I C warns against not using. The shot does not matter but the wad does.
OH...on a side note....it was the Fed "Strut Shok" that I looked at the other day NOT the "Mag Shok"....sorry for the confussion.
I'll stop using Flite Control equipped shells when my new choke arrives. My SSX choke shoots FCW ammo almost as good as the IC BDS, and there is no danger of splitting that choke at the ports.
Quote from: drum817 on March 30, 2011, 05:48:43 PM
Quote from: mcgruff1533 on March 30, 2011, 05:42:01 PM
Not sure if these shells are a non-standard production run or not, but here's what the box says.
Federal Premium
Mag-Shok Lead
12 ga 3-1/2 inches, 2 oz shot, #6 shot
"Featuring Flite Control Wad"
These shells are most definitely NOT Heavyweight's, and they do have the FCW.
Quote from: drum817 on March 30, 2011, 05:33:49 PM
Quote from: mcgruff1533 on March 30, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
Today after firing a Federal Mag Shok 3.5-2-6 lead shell with the flite control wad
The total round count through this choke was 10 rounds.
You did state in your first post "flight control wad"....but you are correct that the "MAG SHOK" load does not use the F C wad.
Then federal must have changed it because the Mag Shok I looked at the other day does not have the F C wad...BUT evidently yours does. It IS the F C wad that I C warns against not using. The shot does not matter but the wad does.
I will take up for IC on this one. I have posted in the past year about the FCW. The wad is solid cylinder and hard. That will not let it give very much. Now with that The wad is .730 OD that is bigger then the bore of most barrels. So then you try to run it out of the choke that is 40% to 50% take down that can get bad. Give you something to try. Shoot a plain winchester then a federal see what one kicks the hardest.
I will also take up for IC on this one.
They clearly warn about the Flight Control Wad.
IC chokes can accomodate all types of shot. I.E.: lead, hevi-shot, tungsten, etc. It ain't the shot that ruined your choke. It's the wad.
Guys... Believe me, I don't want to start a fuss at all, but I need to speak my mind on this one....
I believe that if you pay premium dollars for a premium turkey choke, this type of results is unacceptable. Now having said that, It's man made, and its going to break. Not a matter of how, but when. I realize this.
Great customer service helps this situation, but it does not remove the fact that this is a premium turkey choke and a standard turkey load was used during its defection. Wad issue or not, tolerances in the choke design should allow for this.
Not bashing anybody, just stating my mind.
Are the 20 g chokes any different, I know the wad is different???http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,3757.0.html (http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,3757.0.html)
Im curious how plastic can destroy steel? Honestly, I would like to know this ???
Quote from: turkey_slayer on March 30, 2011, 10:24:26 PM
Im curious how plastic can destroy steel? Honestly, I would like to know this ???
the wad did not destroy the choke(plastic does not damage steel)
the wad had nothing to do with it,the choke was defective to start with
you're paying 50.00 to 80.00 for a choke that plastic can destroy,I don't think so
QuoteIm curious how plastic can destroy steel?
It's the sudden pressure created at the moment the .730 solid FC wad full of pellets hits the .065 constriction down to the .665 exit diameter. Ports create weakness, period. Huge ports create greater weakness. Fine shooting chokes though.
Quote from: surehuntsalot on March 30, 2011, 10:38:16 PM
Quote from: turkey_slayer on March 30, 2011, 10:24:26 PM
Im curious how plastic can destroy steel? Honestly, I would like to know this ???
the wad did not destroy the choke(plastic does not damage steel)
the wad had nothing to do with it,the choke was defective to start with
you're paying 50.00 to 80.00 for a choke that plastic can destroy,I don't think so
I agree, plastic destroying metal? not the problem. However, defective choke? I'm not seeing that either considering the evidence. Looking back on the damaged IC chokes shown here on OG and the few I've seen on another forum, all of them have broken or split in the same general area. Weakness of design gets my vote. I like IC performance, but I'm growing very weary of it's strength. I love turkey hunting, shooting and such, but when safety becomes a potential issue... Changes are in order. If IC feels replacing chokes with stainless steal versions, Great! Hope it cures the problem.
I dont think it is the IC design. They have been around enough years and 1000s of rounds through that design to prove it. I myself have one with a couple hundred rounds through it. no issues.
It is more than likely a bad batch of steel in a more recent run of chokes.
And about the comment about paying high dollar for a product and not being able to use it the way you want. If you buy a new truck and it says unleaded only, you dont go running diesel through it do you? Why wouldnt chokes be the same. The maker of the choke says what you can and cant do with it for a reason.
Quote from: savduck on March 30, 2011, 11:18:42 PM
I dont think it is the IC design. They have been around enough years and 1000s of rounds through that design to prove it. I myself have one with a couple hundred rounds through it. no issues.
It is more than likely a bad batch of steel in a more recent run of chokes.
And about the comment about paying high dollar for a product and not being able to use it the way you want. If you buy a new truck and it says unleaded only, you dont go running diesel through it do you? Why wouldnt chokes be the same. The maker of the choke says what you can and cant do with it for a reason.
Yep, I copied this direct from IC's site...
"The Strike will accommodate all lead, steel and hybrid heavy loads with shot sizes from #2 through #8."
" **DO NOT USE FEDERAL FLIGHT CONTROL Heavy Loads. Manufacturer does not recommend use with Ported Choke Tubes such as the Black Diamond Strike.**"
Note the highlighted... Shot sizes and the section about the manufacturer (federal) not recommending using flight control heavy loads with ported chokes... IC has not made a public stance themselves about not shooting flight control wads.
I'll buy the bad batch of steal possibility though. That could very well be the case.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on March 30, 2011, 09:18:00 PM
I will also take up for IC on this one.
They clearly warn about the Flight Control Wad.
IC chokes can accomodate all types of shot. I.E.: lead, hevi-shot, tungsten, etc. It ain't the shot that ruined your choke. It's the wad.
I disagree, the they advise against the fc wads because their choke with ports is designed to strip the wad away so it has less effect on patterning. The fc wads are federals way of trying to make it so the choke doesn't have to strip the wad ,yet the wad will still not effect the pattern. I may be wring but regardless of how hard that wad is the choke is machined steel...
QuoteYep, I copied this direct from IC's site...
"The Strike will accommodate all lead, steel and hybrid heavy loads with shot sizes from #2 through #8."
On the back of the package that my IC BDS came in, the recommendations were for all turkey loads, shot sizes #4 through #9. The word "steel" did not appear on the package.
I emailed Indian Creek about this, and they replied saying that the wording on the packaging was correct. Turkey loads, shot sizes #4 through #9. No steel shot.
My IC BDS was purchased at the Bass Pro in Pearl, MS one or two years ago.
IC better be standing behind there chokes. if they do not they will be cutting there own throats.
when i buy a turkey choke i expect that choke to hold up to ANY turkey load.
"IC better be standing behind there chokes."
So far they've replaced them. Since they're willing to do that, I'll use mine with total reckless abandon. H13 and Win Sup HV Lead.
Quote from: msgobblergetter on March 30, 2011, 10:59:57 PM
Quote from: surehuntsalot on March 30, 2011, 10:38:16 PM
Quote from: turkey_slayer on March 30, 2011, 10:24:26 PM
Im curious how plastic can destroy steel? Honestly, I would like to know this ???
the wad did not destroy the choke(plastic does not damage steel)
the wad had nothing to do with it,the choke was defective to start with
you're paying 50.00 to 80.00 for a choke that plastic can destroy,I don't think so
I agree, plastic destroying metal? not the problem. However, defective choke? I'm not seeing that either considering the evidence. Looking back on the damaged IC chokes shown here on OG and the few I've seen on another forum, all of them have broken or split in the same general area. Weakness of design gets my vote. I like IC performance, but I'm growing very weary of it's strength. I love turkey hunting, shooting and such, but when safety becomes a potential issue... Changes are in order. If IC feels replacing chokes with stainless steal versions, Great! Hope it cures the problem.
Exactly. I was hoping no one thought the plastic would destroy the choke. They must have just had a bad batch of steel cause if I recall the other ones that cracked were not shot with FC's.
Please see my above link, a member was told by IC it WAS safe to shoot FCW
it is my understanding that IC is not recommending against the FCW because it may damage their choke, but they are recommending against it because Federal recommends against using ported choke tubes with the FC wad for the best patterns.
i'm sure that you could put 1000 FC rounds through an indian creek choke made out of a good batch of steel and never had a problem, but a choke that was flawed when it was birthed from a bar of steel is likely to fracture from the start
btw the plastic vs steel debate is hilarious
Quote from: BigPeck215 on March 31, 2011, 10:40:50 AM
it is my understanding that IC is not recommending against the FCW because it may damage their choke, but they are recommending against it because Federal recommends against using ported choke tubes with the FC wad for the best patterns.
i'm sure that you could put 1000 FC rounds through an indian creek choke made out of a good batch of steel and never had a problem, but a choke that was flawed when it was birthed from a bar of steel is likely to fracture from the start
btw the plastic vs steel debate is hilarious
Amen
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on March 30, 2011, 10:40:24 PM
QuoteIm curious how plastic can destroy steel?
It's the sudden pressure created at the moment the .730 solid FC wad full of pellets hits the .65 constriction down to the .665 exit diameter. Ports create weakness, period. Huge ports create greater weakness. Fine shooting chokes though.
shell shucker, Your constriction should read 0.065, not .65 witch is more than 5/8 of an inch. Marty
Quoteshell shucker, Your constriction should read 0.065, not .65 witch is more than 5/8 of an inch. Marty
Correction made. :icon_thumright:
Federal Black Cloud steel with the Flight Control wad is notorious for destroying shotgun barrels, generally tearing the the choke out of the gun or pealing the barrel open at the choke, so the wad is known for being very hard on choke systems and we are talking about chokes in the .010-.030 being permanently removed form the gun! so just think how hard it is on a choke with .050+ constriction trying to force 2oz of hard lead shot and a rock hard wad that has two hard forward facing edges getting forced through wad catchers and porting, that combo is bad mojo!
Just a little input from an avid Waterfowler that has seen stacks of barrels ruined by Black Cloud, the biggest issue seems to be loose chokes and the forward facing brakes on the wad.
Kurt