(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/JODYLOVE01/88c34812-41ca-44e1-a746-543547f09d66_zpsafvknrbk.png) (http://s382.photobucket.com/user/JODYLOVE01/media/88c34812-41ca-44e1-a746-543547f09d66_zpsafvknrbk.png.html)
Thanks for posting, always enjoy this thread. Do you know what pot Kimmy Hanks won the DD Adams award with?
Quote from: packmule on February 12, 2016, 01:03:53 PM
Thanks for posting, always enjoy this thread. Do you know what pot Kimmy Hanks won the DD Adams award with?
ZEBRAWOOD GLASS
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/JODYLOVE01/KIMMY%20HANKS%20DD%20ADAMS_zpsc6tgszsd.jpg) (http://s382.photobucket.com/user/JODYLOVE01/media/KIMMY%20HANKS%20DD%20ADAMS_zpsc6tgszsd.jpg.html)
Thank you.
Congrats to Al and Josh from SS Calls. I see they won the Don Chancey Award.
A later board has that changed and Frank Kruer won the award for box call set.
Congrats to Al & Josh!!!! And congrats to Tim on the scratch box that he shared a soundfile with. Looks like Jeff McKamey is sky-rocketing also :z-winnersmiley:
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on February 12, 2016, 09:26:44 PM
Congrats to Al and Josh from SS Calls. I see they won the Don Chancey Award.
Great job!!
As I was walking around the show yesterday I was looking at box calls and there very, very few that I liked as well as my SS Customs calls!
I think silverspur is saying that the wrong results were posted.
Quote from: TNReb on February 13, 2016, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on February 12, 2016, 09:26:44 PM
Congrats to Al and Josh from SS Calls. I see they won the Don Chancey Award.
Great job!!
As I was walking around the show yesterday I was looking at box calls and there very, very few that I liked as well as my SS Customs calls!
me too and i only have one of theirs but its a very good one..
Something really screwy happened in the box call set division. I saw pics of the Shoemaker's calls with the Don Chauncey award and the first place ribbon. I talked to the guy that took the pics. He congratulated the Shoemaker's and they were extremely pleased and excited. Then they got a phone call and were told that there had been a computer glitch and that they not only did not win but did not even place. No way something like that should happen.
I ran a lot of the calls that won awards and there were some mighty fine calls entered in the competition. Congrats to the winners and all that entered.
Rickey looks like the same ole same ole in Nashville. Didn't think they could sink to a lower depth but they managed to do it. What a shame that stuff like this happens!!
Quote from: letinmfly on February 13, 2016, 10:20:53 PM
Rickey looks like the same ole same ole in Nashville. Didn't think they could sink to a lower depth but they managed to do it. What a shame that stuff like this happens!!
That really sucks!!! :character0029: :character0029:
Dang. I have heard so many horror stories over the years. I mailed a couple in just for the heck of it but was unable to attend. I don't even know if my calls were entered. How do you find out? I have heard of calls being lost or not entered for whatever reason. I see why some makers have chosen to avoid the competition circuit.
Quote from: KentuckyHeadhunter on February 14, 2016, 10:36:42 AM
Dang. I have heard so many horror stories over the years. I mailed a couple in just for the heck of it but was unable to attend. I don't even know if my calls were entered. How do you find out? I have heard of calls being lost or not entered for whatever reason. I see why some makers have chosen to avoid the competition circuit.
I did the same thing. I would also like to know if it's possible to know if the calls were entered.
Quote from: KentuckyHeadhunter on February 14, 2016, 10:36:42 AM
Dang. I have heard so many horror stories over the years. I mailed a couple in just for the heck of it but was unable to attend. I don't even know if my calls were entered. How do you find out? I have heard of calls being lost or not entered for whatever reason. I see why some makers have chosen to avoid the competition circuit.
Your scratchers were there Allen. I played them. They sounded great!
Well thank you Anthony. I appreciate the info too.
I guess Steve Harvey was the guy handling the results.
Quote from: idratherb on February 14, 2016, 06:40:19 PM
I guess Steve Harvey was the guy handling the results.
That's just funny!!!
I've never been able to go, I have never been able to get my hands on the vast majority of the call makers calls out there to define for myself, but I do seem to see the same names over and over again and wonder if they are just "that much better" or if its a bit of they are supposed to win or that's who the reoccurring judges prefer.
It is a very subjective thing to try and judge. Each person have a different perfect hen in their head.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Im sure they all sound great but to me its just as important how they play. Can they play just as good soft as they do loud. Good purrs and kee kees. I'm sure theres gotta be some biased judging though.
i played alot of those calls over the weekend,where people play them so much most calls are slick and you cant really tell anything about them,the ones that were actually conditioned were the best sounding,and playing.i wonder if the judges actually take the time to play them conditioned,or if they just play them like they are.i really dont understand who or how they are judged but i go every year and it seems something happens,i dont think they should know who calls they are playing either but they do.i played alot of calls over the weekend and out in the booths al and josh had a few laying out,they had a purpleheart and jatoba that was to me the best sounding box there,it would have came home with me if i hadnt spent all my money before i found them.
[quote author=TauntoHawk.........but I do seem to see the same names over and over again and wonder if they are just "that much better" or if its a bit of they are supposed to win or that's who the reoccurring judges prefer.
Yup. Agreed.
Congrats To all that entered...I was fortunate to get 2nd with my scratchbox. I feel terrible for Al and Josh I was unfortunately standing there with them when this all happened, It also happened to another callmaker where they placed the ribbon on his call and he took pics and was so excited and then they moved it bc they screwed up...Lots of great calls entered this year, I felt I had put my best in and i am sure each of the makers do, But I think I am going to take a long look at whether or not its worth entering anymore. JMO, Thanks Tim
I was fortunate to have my scratch box come in 5th, first time placing, so I am happy about that. I heard through the grapevine what happened to Al and Josh, that sucks and should not happen at an event like that. I did notice that there seemed to be a lot less box calls entered this year, probably for the reasons stated above.
First of all, let me say congrats to all of those that entered in the competition! There was a mighty fine bunch of calls there!!
This is a thankless job in which one doesn't get compensated for doing. You are there for 7 or 8 hours fulfilling your obligation. I was asked to judge the box call division this year, which I declined. You have to be there before noon on Thursday and I get there about 4 pm. That wasn't the only reason I declined. Personally, I don't want to have to play box calls for 7-8 hours.....that gets old, quick!! I don't have a clue who the judges were. It would be hard to say if they were qualified to even judge them since I don't know who they were. I received an email earlier this year asking if I knew of anyone that might be willing to judge the competition calls this year. This is how they come up with the judges, as far as I know. I am aware of the situation that happened this year!! There is definitely room for improvement!!! There are some changes that could, and should, be made!! I'm not making excuses for anyone!! This should have never happened!!!!!!!! This is not the first time a similar situation like this has occurred and as long as these competitions go on, they will continue to happen!! One year, they had a couple of judges that couldn't play air operated calls. They judged simply by listening to someone else play the calls and how they looked.
Russell and I have been asked about a call makers competition at the Unicoi Call Makers Show. This is the very reason there will never be a call makers competition at this show. Qualified judges are too hard to come by and these things only cause hard feelings between folks. Every person enters a call that he, or she, feels is capable of winning. A ribbon or plastic trophy with a title is not worth losing friendships over!!!!!! Ask that trophy, ribbon, or title to do you a favor or assist you in a time of need!! So our philosophy is, in order for this to never become a problem....don't start it!! Sooooo, don't even ask about one!!!!!!!!!
Al, I'm in NO WAY defending them!!! I'm not the one calling it a "mistake" / "or not". You are right with everything that you said!!! There are numerous things wrong with this competition....judges selection being one of them!!!! The custom call makers are pulling out from the show. When the guys entering the calls pull out then they'll have to come up with something else to get money from folks with. This was the 40th convention and the 18th call makers contest, so it is relatively a new deal compared with how long the show has been going on!! I entered calls last year, even placed with one of them; and, that was enough for me!!! BTW, I didn't think computers made mistakes.... ??? ??? And yes, I think they should publicly apologize to you and Josh for this!!! Which we know that will never happen!!
Al, the weight of my statement lies in the last paragraph of my previous post!!!!!!!!!!! If there isn't a call makers competition, these things will never happen!! I understand your hostility towards the NWTF !!! A lot of people share your same feelings!!!
Same problem different year! Call makers should boycott the Nationals but there are a select few that will not! A computer doesn't make a mistake! Even if one score wasn't put in correctly it would`nt drop a call maker from 1st to nothing! I haven't attended for 3 years for obvious reasons. I`m not a call maker but I know how to run them. I don`t volunteer to score calls because I have friends that enter!
Maybe next year they can get Steve Harvey to announce the winners :TooFunny:
Sorry that happened to you Al and Josh.
After running a bunch of the calls I will say it would be VERY difficult to select winners. Very very good boxes in all categories. I have zero clue how that can happen. Al and Josh made a tremendous pair along with a few killer long boxes. Hate that happened guys. Just awful.
I will continue to buy calls from Al & Josh and many other call makers on this site, not because of a Medal but because they make great turkey calls!! Keep up the great work yall do in making some of the best turkey calls out there. :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Almost forgot, it was nice meeting Al & Josh at the convention
Heck with the political correctness! Many people and call makers know what has been going on for 6 years. I feel sorry for hunters that purchase award winning calls, pay a high price and don't like them. Yelper is correct about many of the fine call makers on this site that produce callers that consistently run easy and kill gobblers! There definitely will be fewer box calls entered in the Nationals. Hit the NWTF in the pockets! This reminds of the cold war days when the Soviet block judged Olympic events.
I had the privilege of running most of the box calls that were entered in the contest. Like David said earlier, there were so many great sounding calls it would have been hard to pick out a winner. Several were so close in sound that I believe if a person had taken them behind a curtain and ran them that a judge could not tell them apart. They were that close in sound. I have said for years that the call maker's name should not be on their call entered and that best friends should not be judging a category a call maker is in. This debate will go on forever as long as the current judging system is in place. I think more and more call makers will stop competing. Heck, I can name close to 10 call makers that I consider the "Big Boys" that do not compete. A few of them have told me that they want to be judged by a gobbler and not by a person who in some cases cannot even play a call.
Unfortunately I've never been able to go. I can't imagine seeing you've won a category with your hard work and pride, then have it taken from you because of a mistake something or someone made.
Hate to hear it, I don't know how the judging really works, but I know it's impossible to be there every year. It would be best for the call maker to run his call, behind a curtain for the judges, but hard to do for most.
Maybe they should implement this with a top winning caller running say all the box calls behind a curtain. And another top winner for each category.
Again I don't know the layout of the competition but it sounds like a change is in order for sure.
Quote from: SS Calls on February 16, 2016, 07:14:11 AM
Quote from: cypresscreek on February 15, 2016, 10:43:40 AM
I was fortunate to have my scratch box come in 5th, first time placing, so I am happy about that. I heard through the grapevine what happened to Al and Josh, that sucks and should not happen at an event like that. I did notice that there seemed to be a lot less box calls entered this year, probably for the reasons stated above.
You're right about a lot less box calls being entered. Unfortunately, there will probably be even fewer entered next year.
Sorry about what happened Al n Josh. I'm only a buyer/user but you are some of the best, most respectful and professional businessmen n callmakers around. That's the truth.
Now I am a little hound judge. There was a club south of me that did shady/crooked stuff. Most guys stopped going to that club. Their field champions were being certified during the week w no one around. This was the American rabbit hound format. I also judge AKC, same crooked stuff. Friends of judges placing, given unfair consideration or judges playing if I win when you judge, you win when I do. That's no good, weakens the competition. In fact makes it useless.
Back to that club in South Jersey, they used club members for judging, eventually no one else showed. You knew who'd win beforehand. The bums even talked to each other about what they needed before the trial n they got it.
Club entries dropped to zero n the club went out of business. I'm a NWTF supporter but this garbage has got to be addressed. I've heard of at least 3 callmakers dropping out next year. With decreased makers comes decreased interest. It's bad for everyone except for the guy who didn't have to beat SS.
Great calls guys!
Assign each call a number, have the judges behind curtain and hear a series of calls ( Yelp, purr, etc...) They are judging on sound and not whos name is on the call. You would think that the NWTF would care enough to make this contest what it should be, but I guess as long as they get a check it doesnt matter, Personally I am sick and tired of it. and I can promise you I am not the only callmaker that thinks this way.... Its easy to get frustrated and say " I dont care" but the fact of the matter is I do! and most all callmakers do. I build calls bc i love turkey hunting, that has nothing to do with Contest, but you take pride in your craft and you want it to be displayed and judged for what it is. I played calls that deserved ribbons and I played calls that didnt have any and should have...and it was obvious. There is alot more I could say about how I feel about it but unless enough voices are heard its not gonna change a thing.
I haven't commented for a reason. I feel bad for Al and Josh. They are great friends and super callmakers but I also feel bad for Frank because it also will lead people to believe or ask themselves did he really win. This is a really terrible thing to have happen. It shouldn't reflect on the judges or the callmakers. It only reflect on the NWTF itself. I know some of the past history or judging problems but one huge question to ask is (Just When) is the NWTF going to address these issues. Matter of fact it is already to late IMO for the NWTF to adjust their practices. To Al, Josh and Frank this is a terrible thing to have happen. If I was Judging all I can do is give my opinion on which call sounds better. I would hope I wouldn't offend anyone but I promise you someone isn't going to like it. It's always going to be that way when there is a contest. What the NWTF did and how they went about it is totally wrong. Hope I didn't offend anyone but there are 3 victims here. This is the exact reason you will never see a judging contest at Unicoi according to Mark and Russell.
Quote from: REBELYELL on February 12, 2016, 12:05:55 PM
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/JODYLOVE01/88c34812-41ca-44e1-a746-543547f09d66_zpsafvknrbk.png) (http://s382.photobucket.com/user/JODYLOVE01/media/88c34812-41ca-44e1-a746-543547f09d66_zpsafvknrbk.png.html)
I have no dog in this hunt and folks who know me - know how I feel about the NWTF!
Can you imagine how the person from the NWTF (who was most likely a volunteer not getting squat!) felt? They most likely felt like Steve Harvey @ the Miss Universe pagent (ok maybe smaller scale) but I'm sure he along with Miss Colombia & Philippines all felt bad.
It looks like simple human error to me from whoever it was that entered the names on the board above. Thats right guys human error that I am sure many wish they could take back. NOW please read the next paragraph and EVERYONE think about this.....
Straight from NWTF website:
Category 16 – Box Call Sets: Must include one Category 1 type box and one Category 2 type box.
The winner of this category will receive a first place medallion and will earn the Don Chancey Award.Look on the board above at the 1st place name for category 16 and tell me who's name is there. No offense to Al & Josh but when their name did not appear in 1st place there I think the red flag should have been raised and questions asked then before any celebrating commenced.
As I said in my first sentence I have no dog in this hunt. I have no calls from either Al & Josh or Frank but when I look at the NWTF board above I would have to say the winner is obvious as your name has to be in the first place slot in order to win this award.
Thats strange as I thought that board was sitting out from early Friday morning but I could be wrong.
Did they fill out the board first?
Did they set out the medals/ribbons first?
Who was responsible for placing the ribbons with the calls?
Who was responsible for writing the info on the big board?
Is it the same person that sets out ribbons that fills out the board?
Has this type of thing ever happened with the call makers contest previously?
Does any of the above really matter at this point?
I can only imagine the chaos with the 100's of entries and multiple categories to take care of. As I have said before I have no love for the NWTF either! But I do like Miss Karen Cavander who runs the Custom call contest, auctions and Wild turkey records and think she has a thankless job that I would not want.
I do not know if this error was any of her part but if so I would bet that she would be one of the first to humbly apologize.
I hate it that you guys had to go through this and I don't even have anything to do with it.
There are changes that I as a call collector would like to see as well but that's an entirely different can of worms.
Take care and good luck with it all in the future guys I've said my peace.
i think i can answer one of the questions,when i first got there friday,that was one of the first places i went,i remember seeing the boards,they were there but no names were on them,i went into the exabition part and spent some time then ran back up to my room for a minute to take some stuff i bought,this was about three hours later,when i came back by the boards were filled out then.i dont know when they got filled out,but there were the blank boards there at first because i remember looking at all the different catagories on them.
GSLAM. Mistakingly putting the wrong name on the board is not even close to the issues with that contest! ::)
Quote from: trb136 on February 17, 2016, 10:16:50 PM
GSLAM. Mistakingly putting the wrong name on the board is not even close to the issues with that contest! ::)
Yep
Wow, another fun filled nwtf call contest..... :character0029:
I have no dog in the fight, but feel really bad for the callmakers....
The judging ordeal has been a :TrainWreck1: ever since Bruce Elliott quit....
Finding unbiased & competent judging seems like an insurmountable task....
Anytime, you have a contest, that is judged by people, there will be problems....
The respect & honesty dealing with the callmakers calls entered, that once made this contest respected & meaningful, has gone by the wayside... :'(
To place the proper worth & value of each callmakers efforts to build calls that get results spring & fall, is really what you build them for.... :icon_thumright:
The redhead with the beard & spurs is the real judge of callmaking..... :you_rock: When he replies to your calling & you take pictures of him along side your calls, I hope, the nasty taste from Nashville is a very distant memory...
To all you callmakers.......Thanks much for all you do to make your calls the best they can be.
Made in AMERICA, too....
Quote from: boatpaddle on February 18, 2016, 06:56:01 AM
Wow, another fun filled nwtf call contest..... :character0029:
I have no dog in the fight, but feel really bad for the callmakers....
The judging ordeal has been a :TrainWreck1: ever since Bruce Elliott quit....
Finding unbiased & competent judging seems like an insurmountable task....
Anytime, you have a contest, that is judged by people, there will be problems....
The respect & honesty dealing with the callmakers calls entered, that once made this contest respected & meaningful, has gone by the wayside... :'(
To place the proper worth & value of each callmakers efforts to build calls that get results spring & fall, is really what you build them for.... :icon_thumright:
The redhead with the beard & spurs is the real judge of callmaking..... :you_rock: When he replies to your calling & you take pictures of him along side your calls, I hope, the nasty taste from Nashville is a very distant memory...
To all you callmakers.......Thanks much for all you do to make your calls the best they can be.
Made in AMERICA, too....
Best post of 2016.
Quote from: trb136 on February 17, 2016, 10:16:50 PM
GSLAM. Mistakingly putting the wrong name on the board is not even close to the issues with that contest! ::)
Tim as I said I have no dog in the hunt when it comes to the call making contest. I feel bad for Al & Josh as well, it would be a hell of a blow to get that phone call after you thought you had won.
Why not post right here what other issues there are with that contest for everyone to see and discuss or even better yet start a thread directly toward the issue?
John---- I too have no dog in this hunt. But I have to say that a pet peeve of mine about the contest has always been that best friends and hunting buddies judge some callmakers calls. It seems the same guys judge each year so I can see where it would be pretty easy for the same guys to win each year. I am not trying to start anything on here because I know some of the judges are members on here. I am just stating what I think is wrong with the contest. This was my first year to attend the Convention. Man, what a show. I was fortunate to get to run most of the calls that were entered. My buddy David was also running them so I could truly hear what they sounded like. I have to say that there were no difference in sound of some of the first place calls and some calls that did not even place. I actually preferred a couple box calls that had no ribbons beside them. But I will also say that most of the calls that got ribbons were great sounding calls. I had a nice talk this week with one of the call makers that consistently wins and he even said how good so many calls sounded in his categories. He said that if you get five different judges you would probably have a totally different set of winners because different people like different sounds in a call. Maybe the NWTF should rotate a different set of judges each year and come up with a way of the judges not seeing the calls and names on them but only hearing them. You and I both know that several of the finest callmakers out there no longer enter the contest. There is a reason for this.
This really makes a fella think. How can such a subjective thing be judged to the margin of 1st 2nd 3rd.... If possible, what is the standard? There must be one right?
Calling contest seem kin to this subject. Such and incredibly difficult thing to judge with a lack of a standard. I participated in a coyote calling contest once. It was a ton of fun! But at least in my mind... every guy there could have been 1st place. I will participate in another coyote calling contest in January 2017. Cause its fun to hang out with the folks, play calls, and talk about our shared interest. If I were to ever enter my calls into a contest... It would be for the same reasons.
Quote from: SS Calls on February 17, 2016, 08:06:17 PM
First let me be very clear. Karen Cavander is the ONLY one on the nwtf staff who had the guts to speak her mind about how this mistake should never have happened. We have known Karen for years, and me and my whole family are very close to her. She stood up and voiced here opinion to her boss. I heard it myself. Just don't want any confusion there. She's a great person.
If the board was there on Fri. morning I missed it. It is possible. I want argue that point. As for all your other questions, the only person I know who might answer them for you is Charlie Burke.
Good luck with that.
Honestly, Josh and I could care less about the award. It's how we were treated by the staff member who first addressed the issue that is the big problem.
I'm done now, I've said my peace. Time to fill some call orders and get ready for turkey season. :icon_thumright:
Yeah get back too work Al!!!!! :OGani: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny:
I will admit that I have picked up some calls just as others have every year at the convention and said to myself "How in the H*** did those calls place over this one". Lets face it, judging would be a thankless job period!
I was discussing this next subject with a call maker just last night, the question of "How can anyone give a true fair judgement of calls when judging so many in such a short time?" The reason I say this is because how many times have we all set out a bunch of our calls to run on a table at home and after running just a few there becomes a period of what I call "tone deafness". I may not be the best at typing what I am thinking here but I am sure most of you have and do experience what I am talking about.
It is that point where a lot of calls sound the same but yet if you take a good break away and come back later sometimes a different call than what you first chose will end up being the better sounding to you. You simply in my opinion can not judge that many calls in such a short amount of time.
Leaving names and signatures off of calls is a good idea as well but there are many of us who don't need a name on a call to figure out who's it is so I don't know just how much this would accomplish either although it may help somewhat.
I think one reason you won't see some people judging is because the NWTF is such a tightwad organization that they will not even pay for the rooms of the judges. They don't have to give them an individual room but they could bunk two to a room to save on some of the cost or even offer a substantially reduced room rate since they have to be there a day or two in advance.
A lot of good discussion could happen here but it won't. One reason is there are many call makers that are afraid they will be pushed to the side and will not be part of the "callmaking click" anymore.
No way could you drag me into judging after finally seeing and playing all the fine calls entered. And yes, I could tell you who made what call without a name being on it. I own numerous calls from about all of them. LOL It seems that the calling competition judging does not come under the scrutiny of the call making competition. What is different between the two contests?
Well I finally read down far enough to see what happened to Al and Josh. Absolutely unbelievable! This is why I enjoyed Unicoi so much, just good ole' call makers, turkey calls and callin'.
Quote from: hunter22 on February 18, 2016, 05:30:37 PM
No way could you drag me into judging after finally seeing and playing all the fine calls entered. And yes, I could tell you who made what call without a name being on it. I own numerous calls from about all of them. LOL It seems that the calling competition judging does not come under the scrutiny of the call making competition. What is different between the two contests?
Uhhh I know several folks in that part of the world as well and trust me there is just as much scrutiny in the calling world as well!
I sit back and don't say much, but this time of the year a thread like this always pops up. Hopefully no one takes this the wrong way. I'm not here to ruffle any feathers. I'm happy for the winners and sorry to hear about the people who were affected negatively. This stuff is almost entertainment. Similar stories have been going on like this for years as far back as the CCO days and probably even further. The days of holding pig Pickens at the NWTF building in SC during closed hours to try and build a relationship with call makers and the NWTF. As you can see it didn't work. Nothing will change until call makers put their foot down,stop going and donating.
Quote from: boatpaddle on February 18, 2016, 06:56:01 AM
Wow, another fun filled nwtf call contest..... :character0029:
I have no dog in the fight, but feel really bad for the callmakers....
The judging ordeal has been a :TrainWreck1: ever since Bruce Elliott quit....
Finding unbiased & competent judging seems like an insurmountable task....
Anytime, you have a contest, that is judged by people, there will be problems....
The respect & honesty dealing with the callmakers calls entered, that once made this contest respected & meaningful, has gone by the wayside... :'(
To place the proper worth & value of each callmakers efforts to build calls that get results spring & fall, is really what you build them for.... :icon_thumright:
The redhead with the beard & spurs is the real judge of callmaking..... :you_rock: When he replies to your calling & you take pictures of him along side your calls, I hope, the nasty taste from Nashville is a very distant memory...
To all you callmakers.......Thanks much for all you do to make your calls the best they can be.
Made in AMERICA, too....
very well said! Something else that is very disturbing to me is how it seems some of the calls entered into the custom call competitions are totally machine made. I can put a piece of material in a cnc machine, program the machine and spit out a call, then every other one would be exactly the same from then on just change the material used. To me this is not custom, not made by call makers hands and there abilities as true artist.
Quote from: slicksbeagles1 on February 19, 2016, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: boatpaddle on February 18, 2016, 06:56:01 AM
Wow, another fun filled nwtf call contest..... :character0029:
I have no dog in the fight, but feel really bad for the callmakers....
The judging ordeal has been a :TrainWreck1: ever since Bruce Elliott quit....
Finding unbiased & competent judging seems like an insurmountable task....
Anytime, you have a contest, that is judged by people, there will be problems....
The respect & honesty dealing with the callmakers calls entered, that once made this contest respected & meaningful, has gone by the wayside... :'(
To place the proper worth & value of each callmakers efforts to build calls that get results spring & fall, is really what you build them for.... :icon_thumright:
The redhead with the beard & spurs is the real judge of callmaking..... :you_rock: When he replies to your calling & you take pictures of him along side your calls, I hope, the nasty taste from Nashville is a very distant memory...
To all you callmakers.......Thanks much for all you do to make your calls the best they can be.
Made in AMERICA, too....
very well said! Something else that is very disturbing to me is how it seems some of the calls entered into the custom call competitions are totally machine made. I can put a piece of material in a cnc machine, program the machine and spit out a call, then every other one would be exactly the same from then on just change the material used. To me this is not custom, not made by call makers hands and there abilities as true artist.
I couldn't agree more. But I have been flogged for expressing this view in the past. Heck, I was attacked on here recently for saying it. Unfortunately a lot of the winning calls are being made this way now.
Hand hewn vs cnc = a huge :TrainWreck1:
We are entitled to speak our thoughts and opinions over this topic....
For those that get/got offended, please understand it's not a personal vendetta against you or your way of making calls on my part....
It's one of those agree to disagree topic's ....... ::)
Quote from: boatpaddle on February 19, 2016, 02:08:56 PM
Hand hewn vs cnc = a huge :TrainWreck1:
We are entitled to speak our thoughts and opinions over this topic....
For those that get/got offended, please understand it's not a personal vendetta against you or your way of making calls on my part....
It's one of those agree to disagree topic's ....... ::)
the machines can make a great call, there is no doubt,me myself, i much rather prefer the hand made calls,that some one has put their heart and soul in to make the best possible call they can,i like everything about them better,even the tiny flaws.they are works of art to me that has a purpose.i am not against machine made calls in anyway,i like anything that can call a turkey,but i just love a hand made call.i would love to one day have a collection like ricky on here,maybe even a room just dedicated to turkey hunting and calls,but for now i will just have to dream :z-twocents:
DESIRE
Al, Josh, Jeff, Frank, Matt, Mark, Russell, Lamar, Ralph, Marlin, Scott, Wendell, Mike, Jack, Herb, Bill, Shannon, Chuck, and even myself along with a thousand others that Desire to take a piece of wood or bone and hew it out, sand it down, carve it up, or burn it in whichever mean we can afford or have available to us to create to the best of our abilities a call that will assist us with the disease we all share. The DESIRE to call, hunt and kill one of the greatest birds God ever created. The Wild Turkey.
Ask yourself, Do I really think that the few CNC calls laying on the tables at the Nationals are the same as the calls hanging in Bass Pro, Wal-Mart,or any of the retail outlets are the same quality??? Do you see any of these calls laying up on those tables. NO You Do Not !!!! WHY because every call on those tables was built by someone who is making the best call they can any way they can. No one makes anyone put a call in the competition. Why some do and some don't is up to them. One thing is for sure once entered rest assured you are up against some of the best guy and gal who share the same DESIRE.
strutnrut all call makers have the desire to make calls that will call in a turkey, but compare apples to apples. It's like comparing a Chevy to a Ferrari. Each call maker has a choice in how to make there calls machine made is the same as mass produced the only difference is the quality of material used. Hand made is just as it implies made with human hands. The competition should have 2 different categories custom hand made and machine made it is only fair to the real artist. It is kind of a disgrace to the fore fathers of call making for which the TOP awards are NAMED in HONOR!
If you had "100%" hand made calls there would only be 2 or 3 entered
I bet a brand new turkey call that the calls in question a MACHINE was used at some point. Red Apple or Green Apple it's still an Apple.
Quote from: strutnrut on February 20, 2016, 07:18:22 PM
I bet a brand new turkey call that the calls in question a MACHINE was used at some point. Red Apple or Green Apple it's still an Apple.
That's what I'm saying Richard a lot of the people don't understand if you use a foot power lathe or drill press its still a machine
I must have went to a different school because there is a difference In putting a block of material in a machine and it spit out a turkey call. Than using it just to produce one piece and the real custom call makers still use hand tools. Ignorance is bliss!
:popcorn:
I sure do like buying turkey calls from all you Great Callmakers and hunting this GREAT bird!!! :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright:
How many custom callmaker you know that only use a hammer and chisel to hew out a box call. I use a bandsaw,drillpress,beltsander and a lot of sandpaper. An only consider myself a callmaker who builds a tool used by some to kill turkeys.
Think about it,
Typing X, Y, Z coordinates into a CNC control or if you have the program saved you just call up a raspy longbox program.
Push a button.
Have a coffee, post a call on eBay while taking a dump all while the call is being "manufactured"
Or the guy who is actually laying out on the block of wood where the checkering will go, the screw hole and how deep the hole should be, what the radius of the rails should be.... All laid out. Go take a dump, they have to do it too BUT when they are done they pick up where they left off.
These true craftsmen can then tune the call, to make most any of them into a good sounding call.
The CNC manufactured calls that make the grade (1 out 100?) get set aside for contests or buddies, the rest get sold to the public online because the market is there.
I understand that machines are used by both but the difference here is the (CNC) computer numeric control - automated operation of a machine by a computer program. With this type of technology, anyone can press the start button and produce a call. Anyone. How tough could that be?? Hey Martha, you are running sycamore shortbox calls from 9 til 11..... I have a hunt planned.
This is where the issue lies, anyone can go into a CNC shop and produce as good of a call as the person who is selling their calls as custom, where is the custom? The true callmakers shop this cannot be done as theirs is a skilled profession.
Ask a CNC operator to go into a true callmakers shop and produce as good of a call as said true callmakers standard, it cannot be done.
Ask a true callmaker to go into a CNC shop and make a call, it's as easy as pushing the start button.
I wonder how many calls get thrown away by either.....
Thanks Woodsman that is exactly my point in a nut shell.
No problem.
Richard, your calls are works of art and I would rather pay you for your learned skills than pay for the technology in a CNC machine.
I value skilled/learned hand-crafted like yourself far above that of a button pusher.
Denny
Thanks Denny. Besides my wife is to cheap to buy a CNC :TooFunny:
Quote from: strutnrut on February 20, 2016, 11:04:14 PM
Thanks Denny. Besides my wife is to cheap to buy a CNC :TooFunny:
LMAO!!!!!! :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny:
Quote from: strutnrut on February 20, 2016, 11:04:14 PM
Thanks Denny. Besides my wife is to cheap to buy a CNC :TooFunny:
you neverknow,they may a progam to spit out shoes and purses,she may fork over enough for you to have one then;D
Well I've set back an an read all these comments and just want to set the record straight the box calls that won at Nashville that placed first by callmakers that have been named in this thread where not in anyway made with a CNC I know this for a fact. To say that is pure crazy as far as the mishap all you have to do is go back an look at the score sheet of the calls that won and the calls that placed score sheets do not lie. Human era happens that's what happened in this case it's that simple. I was there I ran the calls anyone could have won was a lot of good box calls there. But for some of the comments that have been made are totally crazy. In a nut shell weather it's me or anyother call maker who enters calls if you don't win or place guess what build a better call next time it's that simple. You win with grace you lose with grace. As far as how someone chooses to build a call it's there decision but I can assure you the winning calls were not CNC machined. If a person can afford better equipment than someone else then so be it who cares the end result is what we strive for that's a call that will kill birds bottom line. But as far as the rest goes if somebody has an issue with another call maker don't put them on blast on here before you know the facts as to what happend or how they build a call with out knowing the facts. Like I said you win with grace you lose with grace. I know for facts there are others on here who use what I use to build calls some have even posted on this thread. I can assure you a turkey doesn't care what you build a call out of last I checked. If you can't be happy for someone's accomplishments that they earned that's on you. But I know the time and work that goes into building a call and it does not consist of punching in numbers in a computer an sitting back and 5 mins later a call pops out far from it.
Why is it, that makers of turkey calls place sooooooooo much value on the results of a contest from a 3 day show in Nashville ???
Every year after this show, it's always fussing and arguments about who won....Why do 5 judges carry so much weight in their opinion of a calls sound in the hunting aspect of callmaking??
You folks that build calls, do it for one MAIN reason......For us to buy your call & call in turkeys, not to please judges at Nashville...
You continue to build calls year after year, after Nashville is over......
How many callmakers quit building calls, because of the results of Nashville ????
Most just strive to build a better sounding call for next years ordeal at Nashville or quit sending calls down there to be judged....
Every callmaker with a website, has pictures of dead turkeys & testimonials of how well their calls work from guys like you & me.....Not judges from the Nashville show.... :o
PS: The turkeys don't care, how the calls are made.....The website pictures prove that :newmascot:
It's called prestige...
Quote from: The Woodsman on February 21, 2016, 08:29:29 AM
It's called prestige...
Denny,
What worth or value is prestige, if the judging is so poor, biased, & corrupt as many claim it to be ???
For trophies & ribbons made in china? :TooFunny:
I agree but who would admit to taking top honors by incompetent judging?
Absolutely no one.
Looks good on the resume though..... ;)
Quote from: The Woodsman on February 21, 2016, 09:09:34 AM
I agree but who would admit to taking top honors by incompetent judging?
Absolutely no one.
Looks good on the resume though..... ;)
:z-winnersmiley: :z-winnersmiley: :you_rock: :you_rock:
So your saying the judges were incompetent lol wow. Fact is the wrong name got placed in the wrong spot look at the score sheet. Go back an read the rules on where you got to place an win in order to get chancey award. I can assure you the man who won is not ashamed and works his but off building calls and puts his heart an soul in everyone of them and has earned everything he has won. If someone is so but hurt take your time off from work or whatever and go spend an extra couple days of your money to judge and I can promise you next year you will be the bad so called incompetent judge who doesn't know the difference between the sound of a turkey or a chicken.
Ok, how about being biased? Incompetency may be a wrong description.
I was fortunate to get to go to Nashville this year and had the opportunity to run most of the calls entered. I will also say that most of the winning calls sounded good. I had my buddy David running them and I was off a few feet so I could hear the calls. I can honestly say that several calls that did not place sounded as good as some that did. I can't imagine how a judge could differentiate between them. I may be wrong here and if I am please correct me if I am, but I think for the most part the same judges judge the same categories each year. So if John Doe wins this year and the judges like his calls, then it stands to reason that they will like his calls next year. And if those judges are good friends and hunting buddies with the callmaker it has to influence them. And when the judges are seen hanging out in the callmakers' booths it does not send a good signal to the guys who lost out to those guys. Please don't tell me that this does not happen because I saw it with my own eyes and I have seen pictures of calls that were given to a judge's kid by a callmaker before the competition was held. If you want to get next to me do something kind for one of my kids. I had a good talk this week with one of the callmakers that did real well and he even said that if you get five different judges then you probably have several different winners. I think that would be true even if there was no friendship factor involved. We all have a particular sound we like in a call.
I have gotten to a point that I really do not care if a callmaker makes his calls using a CNC/Mill or whatever. In my opinion these tools take away from the learning curve in how to make a call. But I can say I played some at Nashville that sounded great. One of the "Old School" callmakers told me what the big advantage was in using the advanced technology. The old school maker is very limited on how many calls he can turn out. The maker I talked to said he might be able to make 30 or so calls a year. Where a guy with advanced technology can turn out several hundred a year. In a pile of calls that big there is a lot more likelihood that there will be some that jump out at you.
Unbiased judging come on man all five of those judges had to agree on the calls all them. This whole thing that friends judging or paying judges off or whatever is crazy is it possible a judge might know 10 call makers yes I guess it could happen do I think they had there minds made up before judging no not at all. The man who won call maker of the year won with a trough call "a trough call "do you think he had a friend judging I don't think so. It was said he had the best trough call in 15 years there I herd the call played at the auction for the winners it sounded good I'm happy for him and so are is everyone else. The man who won the longbox division never won a first place at Nashvillle before do I think he or anybody else influenced the judges not at all. I'm happy for everyone who won or placed. The man who won rookie call maker of the year first time he ever enterd a comp ever pretty sure there was nothing fishy about that. I was blessed and lucky and won first in my first ever comp and best of class and I don't know a soul in Virginia or the judges don't care to know them. It's a comp you win or lose its that simple man just like any other sport. Like I said you win with grace you lose with grace. Next time build a better a call just like everyone else who doesn't win or place try's to do. But bashing people with no facts is wrong.
Dude all you doing is trying to get under my skin it's not working. The wrong name got placed in a spot that simple. Since you know so much about judging y not be one next year I'll pay for your 5 days there. Fact is people are jealous of other call makers who do good it's a comp anyone can win anyone. We both know you have an agenda on certain call makers that's obvious and that's your right but know what your talking about before talking about crooked judges. Or better yet start building your on calls if you think it's just so easy. I'm in the shop right now myself trying to get better at it cause I know where I want to be someday an I assure you i won't get what I'm after cause of a friend who's a judge or cause I paid them off i will have earned it.
I could care less if I get under your skin or not. Maybe you need to re-read my post. Nowhere did I say that the calls that won did not deserve to win. I ran them and they sounded good. But I played calls that did not get a ribbon that sounded just as good. To me the competition was that close. With calls that close it just seems odd to a lot of folks the same guys win each year. It is all about perception. Take away any hint of friendship such as calls being given to a judge's family member and that would make the guys that did not place be able to take it a little better.
Why do you think the top callmakers out there do not enter this contest? Guys like Darrin Dawkins, Steve Mann, Albert Paul, Lamar, etc. Like Darrin told me, his judges all have a red head and come in making a big fuss. He refuses to be judged by a group of guys that may not even know how to run a call.
You can hammer away at me because I am done on this subject. Good luck in your call making endeavors.
Ricky my last post was not directed at you. Secondly have you ever thought that the reason others don't enter is because if they didn't do good they think it might hurt there reputation maybe that's it maybe I don't know. All I know is anyone can enter anyone and to say that the winners of this years comp in Nashville are lesser call makers or aren't in the same category than the ones mentioned because you concider them to be the top call makers is just not fair. Every one of the ones you mentioned make great calls no doubt about it I agree with you. But as far as I'm concerned anyone one can win or lose on any given day regardless who you are. The main thing is doing it with class win or lose. Me I'm not building calls to win trophys or medals if i do that's great if not I'm still happy. I do it cause I love it and love the sport and knowing that someone killed a bird with a call I made that's what will give me more satisfaction than anything. I've spoke my piece on this and not bashing anyone. I was there I know what happened and know a mistake was made it happens. This whole judging thing will never change regardless what they do some people are always going to complain and cry no matter if your judging watermelon eatting contest some one is going to get but hurt. So everyone have good day I know I am and I'm looking forward to the up coming season good luck to every one and roll them up.
I live a long ways away from the NWTF convention and have never attended, I also don't personally know any of the callmakers who enter calls in a given year. I do love to hunt turkeys and I love to collect turkey calls. For me the callmakers contest that NWTF puts on each year is at least semi-important. When I open up a magazine and see a callmaker's advertisement with a record of wins at such events, that means something to me, or at least it did before learning more about these details the past few weeks.
For me, there seems to be a couple main issues:
(1) Should totally "hand built" calls be judged against others that are built with varying degrees of assistance from power tools and technology. I'm not sure how or where you'd draw the line on this one. Can a drill press be used? A lathe? A CNC machine? I don't know if the NWTF could address this effectively. I know that I have my beliefs on this particular issue, and I can purchase calls based on those beliefs so I guess that's good enough for me.
(2) However, the main issue seems to be whether or not the NWTF is operating the judgement of these calls in a fair and professional manner. That's what is giving me a lot of heartburn. In my opinion, there's no way that identical judges should be used from year to year to year. The judges also need to understand the seriousness of their duties on that particular weekend. If I'm judging you'd better be assured that I wouldn't be hanging out with a couple of the callmakers in that competition, and sure wouldn't be accepting calls from them, at least during that particular weekend. Putting out an "official" sign displaying the winners and then having to take it back down and put up new "official" sign with different names because a "mistake" was made? That is laughable and a disgrace to anyone who is involved with managing the contest. Whatever happened to double checking or triple checking your work? That competition could and should be designed and executed in a PROFESSIONAL and UNBIASED manner.
My :z-twocents:
I'm sure glad I made my post it has opened up blind eyes! A machine that can produce a call with the push of a button is manufactured. Those that are made with different tools to make each piece or pieces are handmade. As far as the judging goes this has been going on from the beginning of any competion whether it is horses, dogs, cars, etc. I don't know what the answer is to this just go pick enough turkey hunters at the convention at random that can answer certain questions to there ability on calls and ask them to judge. Now don't go crazy that is just a thought!
Please tell Josh I will kill turkey with my new call made by him! If I have to knock him in the dang head with it!!
Keep up the good work. This will serve as a life lesson, believe me. I learned this a long time ago in sports.
You have a great talent and NO ONE can take it away from you.
Flounder
:popcorn:
I can't imagine how disappointing that must have been and shows a real lack of professionalism in the administration of the competition. As a long time duck call maker but relative new comer to turkey calls I entered hunting calls just see how my stacked up against the top makers. Come to find out that, at least in the hunting calls, there is no record of how they scored or how they ranked so it is impossible to gauge where you stand. Lesson learned.
:jackson: