Came across a very well written article in an old (Nov-Dec '13) Audubon magazine....lots of data concerning the decline of turkeys in the S.E. I see it myself and from harvest reports...To make a long story short, I tried to reach people who are doing research on this occurrence with out many answers...hard enough to reach them,yet get any info...Has anyone come across any recent results or answers that have come out of all these studies??......Anyone have any thoughts of their own??
https://www.audubon.org/magazine/wild-turkey-rocks
Is this the article you were referring to? I suspect that the decline is a perfect storm of factors with nest disturbing predators (lack of trapping due to laziness and do gooders who frown on the wearing of fur) and changing habitat management practices being the primary factors.
Not to mention more people hunting turkeys than ever
Quote from: Old Gobbler on December 06, 2015, 06:39:36 PM
Not to mention more people hunting turkeys than ever
That's what im seeing up here in Pa.,getting worse every spring.
Personal observation here in Iowa the numbers seem down. Nothing I've read just my conclusion. Lots of hunters in the spring for sure.
Unfortunately, turkey hunting doesn't lend itself to pressure. Squirrel, deer, rabbit, yes, but you do the game a disservice when the introduction of others becomes your aim.. Take them squirrel hunting.
the population declines i have witnessed have occurred in very different settings.....strict limits and seasons, no poaching involved , favorable weather, private leases, big woods/ small woods, ect....seems like the population grows and for some reason it then rapidly gets smaller....seems like when they expand their territory , they do real good for a while..(see Marlboro,NJ turkey problem)......predators,even ants may be part of the problem, but a summation of what i've seen and researched points to some sort of disease or virus....
A BIG BUNCH of predators eat a BIG BUNCH of turkeys to the point that the turkey numbers drop way down, for a few years the predator numbers level off, then starts to decline due to the lower numbers turkeys. When they reach all time lows, the turkey numbers start to increase. As they increase, they level off for a few years, but then here comes those predators back again. We learned this as the cycle of life among wildlife, back in school many years ago. Factor in diseases and the ever growing number of hunters.
There was even a theory one time, that we may even be killing out all of the gobbling birds. Don't know how that ever panned out. Sometimes, I think there may be some truth to that.... ;D
All of mother natures populations rise and fall. Here in this part of Kansas we were the highest in the late 90s-early 2000s. It started slipping in 2007. We are starting to see some rebounding.
Quote from: nativeks on December 09, 2015, 05:35:54 PM
All of mother natures populations rise and fall. Here in this part of Kansas we were the highest in the late 90s-early 2000s. It started slipping in 2007. We are starting to see some rebounding.
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cycles ,,im a believer.......typed up a long entry for this thread,,but pressed the wrong button, its in cyber space somewhere :TooFunny:
with your population falling, did any of the folks who get paid to be turkey experts come up with answers ????(not theories , I have them for free)....many agencies and the NWTF do not come up w/ answers when the count goes down, but do not hesitate to pat their backs and blow steam when the count is up .. ???
High predator populations can cause a decrease in prey species such as turkeys, but turkeys are too small of a percentage of the meat eating predator's diet to affect the populations of the meat eating predators one way or the other.
I think the population fluctuates for many reasons. Bad hatches and wet summers, all the varmints we have now and more hunting pressure than ever. Another thing I have noticed over the years around here is that every four years or so most flocks relocate for a year or two and then come right back. Giving the appearance of fewer birds. My best guess is that they are just finding better forage after being raked over for so long and then when the area get a break it replenishes and with it come the birds. Not sure I did a good job of explaining it but I can usually tell when it's coming and I will remark that they are about to make there "swing" as I call it.
Here in CT our population is crashing. I have a small farm and had a winter flock of 60 to 80 birds in my fields regularly back in 2002. Now if I see a flock of 12 I am amazed. I have outstanding habitat for them with hard woods and great nesting areas. We have a lot of predators, we see many Bobcats and I have already shot 2 coyotes this fall. In NY we have a camp and hunt for 3 out of the 4 week season. Last year was the absolute worst. It was depressing how few birds gobbled. When you did find a few birds they clammed up and acted very strange. On 2 occasions I called in coyotes looking for a easy meal. They got lead. Now NY has changed there Fall season from nearly 1 month to 2 weeks. I don't know what to do but it is very disturbing. Where is the NWTF? I would expect they would be more proactive. Start a restocking program again. What seems strange to me is how well populations are doing in populated areas. Turkeys walking in Boston is a common sight. Also in large towns they are everywhere. Why do the thrive even with predators among them. Every day you hear about some neighborhood pet killed by a coyote in some town. But the turkeys are surviving there, WHY? I would think the call industry would also be proactive. How many new calls will you be buying when you can't even hear a gobble. HELP is what the turkeys need, NOW! Not 10 years from now. As for hunters I don't see nearly the amount of guys hunting anymore in my areas. Not much to shoot at and not everyone has the drive when the woods are SILENT.
your description of what you see in CT. is mirrored thru out the eastern U S....seems to be ignored,except by those sitti'n in the woods who see this occurring..???
As far as the NWTF is concerned, I gave em back my card in Edgefield,SC. the 2nd year they had the new building...went there to enquirer about the turkey die off in Fisheating Creek WMA , Fl. They where no help and basically told me there would no info to this matter....I guess things have not changed ...
Quote from: saltysenior on December 09, 2015, 07:43:12 PM
cycles ,,im a believer.......typed up a long entry for this thread,,but pressed the wrong button, its in cyber space somewhere :TooFunny:
with your population falling, did any of the folks who get paid to be turkey experts come up with answers ????(not theories , I have them for free)....many agencies and the NWTF do not come up w/ answers when the count goes down, but do not hesitate to pat their backs and blow steam when the count is up .. ???
I already had a good idea of why. We flooded for 4 consecutive years. Then folks were coming to Kansas and laying waste to anything with a beard. A local biologist also said blackhead had a small part to play as well. I remember when populations were high and it was rare to see another hunter. Last year the public was so bad the guys running it say they need to do a draw to take pressure off the resource. However the manager said it would be political suicide.
Watch at some point when the coyotes get really overpopulated a disease will wipe them out. Same thing is racoons and distemper. Then you will see populations explode. Many people just happened to get into turkey hunting at the peak of the cycle and now that it has dropped off the sky is falling.
the article mentioned in post #2 , which all should read, is quite old and printed by a group that is really noted not to be hunter friendly ............has any hunting magazines, organizations,or state natural resource agency put out any info on this occurrence that any members of this forum have come across ????
Quote from: silvestris on December 09, 2015, 08:33:54 PM
High predator populations can cause a decrease in prey species such as turkeys, but turkeys are too small of a percentage of the meat eating predator's diet to affect the populations of the meat eating predators one way or the other.
Turkeys are just one piece of the puzzle. Wasn't implying that turkeys were all they ate. Wild hogs seem to be a big factor in some of the areas I hunt. High hog population..low turkeys. Bunch of nest destroyers.
No doubt that the rooters destroy nests, however I remember armadillos being quite prevalent in the 70-80s with little detriment to nesting hens, and dillers can really root. Hogs also compete heavily for mast. If your game relies on mast to a degree, then hogs must be exterminated.
I have told many times, of my long number of years, hunting the same woods, 59 seasons; where original native turkeys, have always lived. The population has not changed very much over the years, till now. Never was very many turkeys here. However, these are all woods turkeys; with no civilization at all.
Today though, there are high population, of wild hogs, armadillos, coyotes, more hawks and owls; not to mention more turkey hunters too, and the turkey numbers are down; big time.
We have always had weather, and parts of North Georgia here, has the second highest rainfall; in the country. So I don't blame the weather as much as all those new predators; I mention. Yes, we have also, always had wild-cats, coons and skunks here.
herb mcclure
after some research it seems that disease is something all states are concerned with....google ''LPDV in wild turkeys "...
not to be a sky is falling type BUT through some exploring on the computer ,seems like the population seems to be falling in many states...we are also faced with a decrease in many other birds.... grouse, dove,snipe,woodcock,and the longstanding issue w/ quail... even the whippoorwill seems to be in a decline....
thoughts???
.
In talking the population decline over with a buddy - I told him that hardly anyone traps or coon hunts in our area anymore. Back in the late 70's fur prices were high and almost everyone hunted coons and ran a trap line. Now I can count the number of trappers and coon hunters on two hands. Forget the coons, foxes and coyotes that we killed how about all the non target animals like skunks and opossums. All of these predators are hard on nests and poults.
Wonder how much of a difference this makes...
Just opinions here but anytime we get hit with a late spring cold wet spell it results in low recruitment. IMHO everything can be perfect and you have a weather pattern set in for a few days during the two weeks from hatch to pin feathers and you just lost a pile of birds. Sure we now have plenty of yotes, hogs showing up in every county too and figure they do their part in damage. Have heard from others that ran extensive trapping on their properties that they saw almost immediate rebounds in turkey numbers in following years.
Me, I can't help but also wonder if there is some chemical that could be getting into the environment that is causing hatch issues. We've always had predators on turkeys, just a different mix now. From what I am seeing this fall we had some decent hatches in upstate SC this year, at least locally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwLPnWMM2h4
Our turkey populations have been declining here in NY for some time now. This past spring things were pitiful. Fields/woods that had at least a few birds in them the year before were almost empty.
We had a couple poor nesting seasons in a row and a hard winter here last year, so I'm sure that didn't help, but I don't think it caused all the problems we have here. Our DEC blames it on the above reasons, predators, and possibly too many hens being shot in the fall.
I'm no biologist, but we've had all the above before, and it did cut down on the numbers of turkeys here around home, but nothing like this.
I found an article online this past summer and I can't for the life of me find it now, but it stated that there is a disease affecting the birds not only here, but all over the east. It can cause growths around the eyes, eventually causing blindness, and in the birds mouths/throats, causing them to starve.
I haven't killed a bird that had any growths that I could see, but if that's the case, maybe it has something to do with it.
I know It's a sad state of affairs around here, and I guess other places too.
On the up side, I've seen a couple flocks of hens and young birds over the summer and fall here, so I'm hoping for the best. I can't imagine spring without gobbles.
Bob
There are many things contributing to decline in wild turkey populations, predators, chemicals, disease, weather, etc etc it is a combination of all of these. Right now there are many states that are worried about turkey populations and are trying to study them. Studying turkeys and seeing trends in population can be difficult thing when people want to see science behind it. Hence why many states have not done anything with hunting season/bag limits. Alabama has a research going on with Auburn University radio collaring birds and tracking them. Unfortunately by the time the research is complete and the data is analyzed it will be a few years...
One thing that many people do not realize the that chickens carry NUMEROUS diseases that will affect wild turkeys BUT those same diseases will not affect other chickens in the houses. Once this chicken litter is spread out on the fields it then in turn infects turkeys. If you notice many fields that you use to see birds in that now have chicken litter no longer hold birds. This issue then becomes political because the poultry industry is a lot larger and than the wildlife industry. Talk to your local DNR about this and see if you cant get them to study this...
the last few posts show a reflection of what is happening.....all the normal reasons are part of the problem, but they do not occur throughout the country....a bad spring in VT. does not effect the hatch in Ky.... if it was happening in a private industry, i believe more answers would come out faster....
People throwing corn out does not help either. It can actually make turkeys sick as it get wet and molds.
Sent from the Strut Zone
Decline is happening in a lot of places but not the entire southeast. Around where I live and hunt the birds are thriving. But people come up here to hunt the public land from just 1 or 2 counties away because their land has mysteriously lost most of its turkeys. They are weird creatures and I'm not sure why they fluctuate so much from one county to the next.
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Also the hatch here this past season was awesome. Looking forward to the next couple years of hunting.
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After reading about LPDV and Avion pox I feel that our wild life agencies are just getting started on understanding these diseases. They may be able to link this to the spreading of chicken manure in fields. The two diseases are showing up in most birds tested in the eastern US. They thought it was Avian Pox but now are seeing LPDV and Avian Pox together and findings are relatively widespread. All birds may not show symptoms. Birds showing up with lesions on head and feet are becoming more prevalent. It seems that where ever they look for it they are finding it. In 2012 NH fish and game sent 6 birds for testing and all came back positive. In NY turkeys peaked in 2001 and have been in steady decline since. NY is very proactive in this and is very concerned, they have trapped and outfitted birds with radio tracking devices. There are many unknowns but they are working on it. This has already effected our NY seasons. The DEC has cut the fall season from 7 weeks to 2 weeks. I can only assume next will be spring season reduction and bag limits. I wished there was something hunters could do to help. I know that I will not feel the same about getting my bird this spring. What would the late great Lovett Williams have to say. I miss his knowledge ang his voice. Google LPDV and check out the article from John Soltes. Thanks to Salty Senior for his post to bring this out. May the force be with us.
met Lovett's partner ( David Austin) at Fisheating Creek WMA,FL. years back..Sorta brushed me off when I asked where the turkeys went....Later at the check station the lady said he was checking for some disease.....
I was getting a little concerned after not seeing any birds for the better part of deer season but they have started showing back up again.
Thought I would bump this out