I was wondering on everyone's thoughts
That hunt or have hunted Arkansas over the last
8 or 9 years, what they think about why
Our turkey population declined? It is back
On the rise the last couple of years, which
Is good to see, but I have my own theories
Just wondering y'all's.
I dont know about other southern states but here in NC, I believe the wildlife commission was in such a hurry to get flocks into all 100 of our counties and open the season statewide, they didnt let the flocks become established long enough before they let John Q. Hunter start hammering them...
Sent from Gobblers Knob, NC
I am from Arkansas and I agree the turkeys are coming back in our state. I filled both my tags last spring in Arkansas which was the first time I had done that in about three years. There were a couple years I heard one bird gobble the whole season and managed to kill both those birds. Six years ago I could hunt this same land and hear birds gobbling in every direction at daylight and have a hard time deciding which bird to hunt.
I think we had several years of bad hatches and predators such as coyotes, bobcats, and raccoons about took over.
Populations cycle up and down. Its natures way. My part of Kansas hit rock bottom a couple years ago. We were low since the mid 2000s but it got worse. Starting to see some recovery.
Quote from: Triple Gobble on March 16, 2015, 08:49:23 PM
I was wondering on everyone's thoughts
That hunt or have hunted Arkansas over the last
8 or 9 years, what they think about why
Our turkey population declined? It is back
On the rise the last couple of years, which
Is good to see, but I have my own theories
Just wondering y'all's.
to me, I believe that it is a product of many things. Starting with, very few of the big deer "leases" actually try to manage for turkeys. Some had gotten on board and they have a good population now that is getting healthier by the day. Next, I believe like you said is the predator issue(which is probably the number 1 culprit). With a booming population of coyotes, bobcats, foxes, coons, possums, and hogs, it amazes me that a turkey can even hatch. The third though I have is the loss in habitat in several thousand acres. Where once a 200 acre oak flat or ridge with valleys stood, now sits a clear cut pine plantation(yes I know cutovers are good, but there loosing lots of there habitat). All of this combined with poor nesting seasons(wet spring etc,) , lack of management, lack of predator control, leaves for a tough life on the Arkansas turkey population. I agree with you
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Predators, several massive/historic floods only a few years apart, poor nesting habitat
All very good points, I know that I could
Do a much better part myself on the predator
Control. The floods I believe had a huge
Part in it , but it is looking up which is great.
I'm ready for the times when I can just take
Off walking down an old logging road and
Strike up numerous birds and take my pick
On which one I want to go after, like I use to
Be able to do 10 years ago around hear. It wasn't
If you were going to hear one, it was how
Many you would hear, at least for me for a
Number of years.
talked to the green jeans about this a while back and they said we agreed to trade turkeys for elk with a western state (can not recall which state). that is how they attempted to build our elk population in the ozarks... this could be a load of crap but it is straight from a high ranking official in the AGFC.
I cannot speak for your area, but every game bird population I hunt is dependent on habitat...
Rural encroachment, more efficient farming practices (leaving less uncultivated land for nesting), weather, etc...
Rural encroachment and farming practices will not create better habitat in future years...
I believe that hunting and even predation fall far behind habitat as far as importance for game populations in most areas.
Poultry industry. To many airborne disease for which wild fowl have no immunity.
I do a lot of turkey hunting on my own farm in se ohio as well as a few close by properties where I have access to hunt. The turkey hunting was great from early to late 90's. Then from about 2002-2008 it dropped off to where I hadn't taken a spring bird off my farm in several years. Now, things are booming again. Last muzzy season I watched a flock of 21 long beard walk right in front of my blind. I had never seen so many in my life in that area. Today I have a flock of about 9-10 gobblers using my ground on a daily basis.
I had an nwtf biologist come out and assess my property 3 years ago. The first thing he said that was missing was adequate nesting cover. When asked how to do this he told me a couple ways. One of which is to thin the timber with logging, but another, more simpler way, is hinge cutting.
I started hinge cutting in my deer sanctuary (20 acres in the middle of my property) mostly of non mast producing trees like maple, poplar, hickory etc. Anything that was not an oak and would not be a likely roost tree (smaller 8-20' high trees) for turkey I hinge cut. I spread my hinge work across 3-4 years and now I am probably 90% done in my sanctuary. He told me the tops of trees are great nest locations and even against the base of the tree since there is over head cover.
In addition to what I have done there has been a lot of clear cutting going on in surrounding properties which is now forcing the birds to roost on my property since I have plenty of mature timber. Yet the clear cuts are great for nesting too.
I also plant several smaller food plots and my go to seed blend is a mix of winter rye and clover. He said to let the winter rye head out and fall over on its own. This would be great brood habitat. I also have one field I do not plant and basically just let be for cover since it is not too far from property line.
I live in central AR and hunt Winona WMA which is probably the most used WMA in AR simple because of where it is located. We had a good hatch a couple years ago but that was the bright star of the last decade in our area. I would have to agree habitat is what has hurt us most but the wet springs can't be overlooked. All of the above mentioned things; predators, nesting habitat, wet springs and poaching all have contributed to our decline. Maybe not one thing by itself is to blame but you add them together and the birds have a hard time raising a good brood. I have noticed some cutting of underbrush in areas of Winona and hope this leads to more.
I know it isn't popular to say and have been scolded before but I wish we would go to a one bird limit till things improve. Maybe not on private lands or leases but at least on our WMA's. I know, gobblers don't have poults but with our late season I have to wonder if we are bumping too many hens off the nest. One and done would get most hunters out of the woods in my opinion.
Quote from: Triple Gobble on March 16, 2015, 08:49:23 PM
I was wondering on everyone's thoughts
That hunt or have hunted Arkansas over the last
8 or 9 years, what they think about why
Our turkey population declined? It is back
On the rise the last couple of years, which
Is good to see, but I have my own theories
Just wondering y'all's.
Just interested to know which part of Arkansas you are from. I have hunted all around Arkansas, but never in Arkansas. My ex-inlaws owned land down south around El Dorado and the birds were just coming on strong on their property in the late 90's. I frequently drive across Arkansas from north to south--I live in SW Missouri and visit family in Louisiana. I very rarely see turkeys on my drive in Northern Areas of the state. It seems as soon as I cross the Missouri Line, the turkeys magically appear. Kind of weird. My impression is the southern areas have remained more stable. I did run into some Arkansas boys in Kansas last year, and they seemed to be some bona fide turkey killers, and they were complaining about no turkeys in Arkansas.
I do have a good friend that wanted me to come hunt down in the Buffalo River Area, but it seems Kansas always gets my attention that time of year.
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 17, 2015, 01:45:04 AM
Poultry industry. To many airborne disease for which wild fowl have no immunity.
This is true as well...I started to post this but it is just a theory that only a few people think is valid.
Since you don't have to tend to harsh winters, I bet it is predators or poachers ... I'm just saying ... :turkey2:
Quote from: Gumby on March 17, 2015, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 17, 2015, 01:45:04 AM
Poultry industry. To many airborne disease for which wild fowl have no immunity.
This is true as well...I started to post this but it is just a theory that only a few people think is valid.
Blackhead?
Quote from: Tony Harris on March 17, 2015, 11:27:43 AM
I live in central AR and hunt Winona WMA which is probably the most used WMA in AR simple because of where it is located. We had a good hatch a couple years ago but that was the bright star of the last decade in our area. I would have to agree habitat is what has hurt us most but the wet springs can't be overlooked. All of the above mentioned things; predators, nesting habitat, wet springs and poaching all have contributed to our decline. Maybe not one thing by itself is to blame but you add them together and the birds have a hard time raising a good brood. I have noticed some cutting of underbrush in areas of Winona and hope this leads to more.
I know it isn't popular to say and have been scolded before but I wish we would go to a one bird limit till things improve. Maybe not on private lands or leases but at least on our WMA's. I know, gobblers don't have poults but with our late season I have to wonder if we are bumping too many hens off the nest. One and done would get most hunters out of the woods in my opinion.
id be up for a one bird limit for a couple of years. we also need to have some of our WMA's dedicated for things other than duck hunting. ive been duck hunting in arkansas since i was 10 but our levee systems on most WMAs are designed to flood up the area which is poor habitat for turkeys. if a WMA is off the flyway they really ought to stop attempting to flood it just for woodie shoots. no one shoots them things in arkansas anyways!
Perfect storm. It has hit the entire Southeast US.
More than 6 years of bad hatches in a row. Cold wet springs and other weather factors. Some spring freezes that knocked back mast production. The population can't rebound with poor hatches. If we could get several good hatches, you will see a rebound.
i think that the turkey population hit it climax back in the early 2000s. Now, we are in a small rebound to what this states habitat can sustain. We will see minor ups and downs from here on, but never like it was for about 5 years.
Quote from: owlhoot on March 17, 2015, 10:30:37 PM
Quote from: Gumby on March 17, 2015, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 17, 2015, 01:45:04 AM
Poultry industry. To many airborne disease for which wild fowl have no immunity.
This is true as well...I started to post this but it is just a theory that only a few people think is valid.
Blackhead?
I was thinking LT but possibly both. Really there are several factors, wet weather/bad hatches, disease, predation, the list goes on and on. I've seen the Eastern population rise and fall here in OK twice. Its like a 10+ year cycle both times.
Your population declined due to several bad hatches. The population is rebounding because the state took drastic action and reduced the limit and the season.
We also have declining populations in Alabama and our state has done nothing and continues to do nothing. I just don't see a good outcome for us.
Florida turkey hunting...specifically central and southern Florida is living on borrowed time folks , I say this with the deepest regret , as I type this .....there is a total for the ETIRE state not just the Osceola turkey in the central and southern regions , a total of only about 700 gobblers harvested on public wma's , that's public , but in the south and central most of the suitable property that holds turkeys is in public holding , cause the rest has been developed - you read that correctly ...700 turkeys in total for the whole state on public wma areas those numbers are not lies , those are the check station numbers most of those harvested are in the hybrid and eastern zones
the majority of south zone hunting in south Florida is mainly comprised of not private land but of public property that is severely mismanaged - there are exactly 2 wma's in the south zone that don't require a permit to hunt , the year before yours truly. .., I think 3 were checked out in one of them , some of those were ones I called up -- I won't ever return to either one of these wma's even though I've killed dozens of Osceolas in them over a 30 year period , it's sad how low the population has dropped and sad the heathen hoards of tv brainwashed deer hunter turned turkey hunters swarm the area for a few gobblers - the state has mismanaged the program in there , partially due to the obsession with creating one as a "wilderness area" and not doing any prescribed burns and mostly the sacred cow .....the Florida panther ...though shalt not endanger the panther population
The central zone ....Orlando south to Okeechobee area ....the area is rapidly being developed, yes there is some holdings on private ranches and larger wma's but that won't last forever , houses and neighborhoods are popping up , with that comes the advent of the walk in hunter with the .22 -- right now there are approximately 250 turkeys harvested on wma's in this area , the private holdings are far larger and hold thousands of birds , but in due time the private holdings will succumb to development and progress - thw state is grabbing up property , some prime habitat is to be converted into storm water treatment eras , or into park like areas that are missmanaged too --and like southern florida all that will be left is public wma's , in 20 years time they will be far less Osceolas , today I estimate , and my estimate is way more accurate than that of the state's , I estimate that there is less than 20,000 Osceola turkeys Orlando area and south ,in 20 years time there will be about 5,000 - speaking of Orlando .....anyone been there lately it's the next sprawling Miami waiting to happen --
The population of Florida (people) stands at 19 million, the STATE estimates that in 2035 the population will be 42 million - turkey hunting will be a thing of the past , at least how we know it --there will be turkey hunting on a few large ranches and the price tag will resemble that of a Dall Ram hunt ---
The quota hunt program in fl. 25 years ago was a mail in system where you would get drawn 75% of the time , today it takes about 4 years worth of preference points to get a good permit , 20 years from now , you may need a permit to hunt any wma , and the good areas will be next to impossible to get , similar to the big game permits out west for pronghorn etc..where it takes 10 years to get one
The board of directors for the Florida nwtf in thier infinite stupidity have done possibly two of the very worst things possible ....despite some strong objections from wiser bod past and present, they swayed the state into 2 rule changes , all day turkey hunting.... (roost shooting problem) and making it legal to shoot 2 gobblers in the same day -- there will be a increased harvest , followed by a substantial drop in population , a population drop similar to Pintail ducks in North America - we are seeing some creative turkey hunting trickery like a sudden intrest in people bringing youth hunters , even bringing kids that are not even thiers to sit with them while they pop off a early season Osceola , also having scores of family members apply for them on quotas and then being guested in by thier sister or the likes , loopholes abound
There is a very , very good possibility that the Osceola could be placed on the Federally threatened or endangered list in our lifetime, as a example I think there are 1,500 breeding pairs of bald eagles in the state , shoot one of those and see how many years you get in the slammer
The state needs to fo the following actions immediately,especially in the central and southern zones and especially on wma's some of these rules are going to be unpopular
1) 12 o'clock hunting , withdraw the all day hunting
2) 1 bird per day , perhaps 1 per season , if the populations don't correct themselves -
3) rule change-- you may not physically touch a harvested gobbler until you write on the back of your hunting permit , the date and time of the harvest in permanent ink-- $5,000 dollar fine for being caught , revenue from that goes directly to the turkey program
4) 6 inch beard rule , it's in place in Mississippi and few other states , it needs to be deployed here, no more sexually immature male Osceolas
5)no more guests with the quota hunting permits , at least ones with a gun sharing the permit -
6) roll the special op permits into the regular permit hunts and stop the prostitution of the system
7) increase the turkey stamp to $50 for residents and hire some more turkey biologists , game wardens and equipment to due more prescribed burns - and give the wardens and biologists serving all ready a good rais of pay
8) $20 permit application fee for ALL quota hunts, funds go to aquiring more property
9) end the loopholes with the youth season , sorry folks I know there was some good intentions with this , but we all know what's going on , the legal guardian , grandparent, parent of the child shall accompany the child while hunting , if it's your buddies or sisters child , bring them too the three of you can share the moment , people are actively recruiting any child they can locate and putting them down on a application - on opening day of the regular season it's totally amazing the sudden drop in enthusiasm with folks bringing thier new found apprentice hunters , all the kiddies have disappeared on the real opener -- when I was a kid I hunted with my dad every single day of the season , not just some loophole day the weekend before , I like the youth season but it is being played out and gamed out
with any luck our next generation of turkey hunters will have a huntable population of these amazing birds ,
Remember there is only ONE PLACE IN THIS WORLD YOU CAN FIND A TRUE OSCEOLA , and it is smack dab in the middle of the most rapidly developed area in the country . This isn't about who gets to kill what , this is about extinction of a subspecies , many of the old timer florida turkey hunters down here feel exactly like I do
Shannon
Be careful what you wish for. Several rule changes that OG mentioned have been put in place in AR, as well as other states. These states are having a difficult time reversing these restrictions due to higher numbers of liberals that have slipped into power in the recent years.
What needs to happen is less dependency on our government and more reliance on ourselves.
I, for one, speak my mind when I am on public ground. I will flat out tell ppl where I am going. I get there early. And I will not do anything to hurt the population. Killing 2 birds in one day is ridiculous. I Used to be the one that would have jumped at the opportunity, but with age, my greed has lessened.
In other words, do not rely on the government, rely on you and your fellow hunter.....the government has been proven to screw good things up on occasion.
Why? Not enough diversity in the gene pool in my opinion. Look at how the wild turkeys were restored and relocated to new areas. There was little to any genetic diversity as most if not all of the birds they re-located by trapping them with nets were so closely related. For awhile the population grew steadily, rapidly and exploded in these new areas where wild turkeys were introduced. But it was only short lived and that I believe is what we are now experiencing. No genetic diversity meant a lot of inbreeding which led to little to no resistance to disease and slower growth rates with poor reproductive efforts.
Not just Arkansas, but across multiple states and different regions of the country.
I hunt zone 5 and zone 3 in arkansas every year. I haven't had any issues with turkey numbers being down in my area at all. My only problem this year was getting time to go. I have killed my 2 birds every year for the last 11 years I believe. Up until this year I was averaging only carrying a gun for about 5 hours to fill my 2 tags in the last 5 seasons. The 2 I killed this year both had buddies with them. 1st was in zone 3 it was the 5th bird killed on 400 acres and he came up with a buddy. Both were 3 years old or older. 2nd bird was in zone 5 and he was a big 2 year old with 2 more Tom's with him. I feel that some places are down and some are better than ever. I also believe that harvest number are a terrible way of determining the number of birds in a state. In arkansas you get your turkey tags when you buy your deer tags so there is no real way of knowing how successful the season was. Say there was 15,000 turkey killed this year and 17,000 last year you would think last year was a better right. Now if they sold turkey tags separate of the deer tags and we knew that 50,000 hunters bought tags last year and only 30,000 hunters bought tags this year it would be obvious that this year was alot better of a harvest. AGFC only cares about Mallards and Rainbow Trout anyway and they are to dumb to get that. If they weren't idiots we could have the best turkey hunting in the US. And if not dam close to it.
I am wondering if aflatoxin is not the problem from the deer "feeders". I wish they would totally outlaw supplemental feeding/baiting.
1. Natural Cycling +
2. Loss of habitat +
3. Poor Management +
4. Lack of Predator Control +
5. Spring/Growing Season Burns in late April through May.
Truly we can only control 3,4 & 5. But those are HUGE factors !
I would also love to see a complete ban on the supplemental feeding/baiting. It is known to help deer spread diseases, seems reasonable that it might apply for other game animals. In my state they keep it legal 8 months out of the year except for a few select counties, despite what they know about how it helps spread disease amongst the deer when they congregate at a bait site.
Quote from: highwaygun on May 21, 2015, 07:44:19 PM
I hunt zone 5 and zone 3 in arkansas every year. I haven't had any issues with turkey numbers being down in my area at all. My only problem this year was getting time to go. I have killed my 2 birds every year for the last 11 years I believe. Up until this year I was averaging only carrying a gun for about 5 hours to fill my 2 tags in the last 5 seasons. The 2 I killed this year both had buddies with them. 1st was in zone 3 it was the 5th bird killed on 400 acres and he came up with a buddy. Both were 3 years old or older. 2nd bird was in zone 5 and he was a big 2 year old with 2 more Tom's with him. I feel that some places are down and some are better than ever. I also believe that harvest number are a terrible way of determining the number of birds in a state. In arkansas you get your turkey tags when you buy your deer tags so there is no real way of knowing how successful the season was. Say there was 15,000 turkey killed this year and 17,000 last year you would think last year was a better right. Now if they sold turkey tags separate of the deer tags and we knew that 50,000 hunters bought tags last year and only 30,000 hunters bought tags this year it would be obvious that this year was alot better of a harvest. AGFC only cares about Mallards and Rainbow Trout anyway and they are to dumb to get that. If they weren't idiots we could have the best turkey hunting in the US. And if not dam close to it.
I appreciate your vote of confidence. Lol.
Quote from: HogBiologist on May 23, 2015, 11:32:32 PM
Quote from: highwaygun on May 21, 2015, 07:44:19 PM
I hunt zone 5 and zone 3 in arkansas every year. I haven't had any issues with turkey numbers being down in my area at all. My only problem this year was getting time to go. I have killed my 2 birds every year for the last 11 years I believe. Up until this year I was averaging only carrying a gun for about 5 hours to fill my 2 tags in the last 5 seasons. The 2 I killed this year both had buddies with them. 1st was in zone 3 it was the 5th bird killed on 400 acres and he came up with a buddy. Both were 3 years old or older. 2nd bird was in zone 5 and he was a big 2 year old with 2 more Tom's with him. I feel that some places are down and some are better than ever. I also believe that harvest number are a terrible way of determining the number of birds in a state. In arkansas you get your turkey tags when you buy your deer tags so there is no real way of knowing how successful the season was. Say there was 15,000 turkey killed this year and 17,000 last year you would think last year was a better right. Now if they sold turkey tags separate of the deer tags and we knew that 50,000 hunters bought tags last year and only 30,000 hunters bought tags this year it would be obvious that this year was alot better of a harvest. AGFC only cares about Mallards and Rainbow Trout anyway and they are to dumb to get that. If they weren't idiots we could have the best turkey hunting in the US. And if not dam close to it.
I appreciate your vote of confidence. Lol.
No problem. I assume by you screen name you work for the agfc. Can you explain to me why the agfc doesn't sell the turkey tags separate of the deer tags. Doesn't that seem like a better way to determine the success rate of the harvest. I learned in 7th grade algebra it hard to solve an equation without all the variables. I would think knowing how many hunters are actually in the woods is one of the most important variable in this equation. Yet yall continue to throw a couple of turkey tags to the guy that buys his combination tags to go to the hills and pile up some deer with a 30.06 and could care less about turkey. I would be willing to pay 25 dollars for each turkey tag in the spring separate of the deer tags. That way you know if a guy buys 1 tag he's planning on turkey hunting and if he buys 2 tags he planning on killing 2 turkeys. Plus yall would get extra revenue that you could use to help the turkey population. As for the duck and trout statement I would love it if you could prove me wrong. Right now or in the future.
well in the few years I've worked here, I have yet to do anything oriented toward ducks or trout. The specific division I work under deals with private lands and habitat restoration. Most of that is native habitat restoration (native grass and woodlands) and actually benefits both quail (target species) and turkeys. We have a DMAP program which is a big part of the commission. If anything, more wildlife time is spent on deer by far. There are limited area that deal with trout. Ducks are limited primarily to the southeast and eastern areas (Mississippi flyway). But most large areas are in the delta and that is a mostly private land holders.
As far as tags, that is not my area. There are ways that the hunter numbers are monitored. Various surveys are done to determine the trend in Hunter numbers. Believe me, having been a biologist for almost 12 years and with 2 different state agencies, there is a lot that goes on. People see what they want to see. As momma Oddie said in the Princess Frog; you gotta dig a little deeper. All the info you seek is available. Call little rock and ask. Turkey harvest summaries are available which look at harvest and reproduction amongst other factors. For the last 2 years, surveys have been done on proposed rule changes. People want to blame AGFC for the forest service burning later. They don't control the Feds and besides, the burns have benefits that outweigh the negatives. When you have 9 bad hatches in a row, the population suffers. We have had a few years with decent production. This year will probably have lower reproduction. Obviously we have had a wet/cold spring.
Quote from: Gumby on March 17, 2015, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 17, 2015, 01:45:04 AM
Poultry industry. To many airborne disease for which wild fowl have no immunity.
This is true as well...I started to post this but it is just a theory that only a few people think is valid.
I've said this many times but have zero proof. Also, after these chicken farms have disease killing thousands of birds per day in a single house the litter from diseased houses is spread on pastures for fertilize. The same pastures turkeys catch bugs in.
The one thing that makes me doubt this theory is turkey populations have fell off in areas without chicken houses so there are other priblems as well.
I personally think gobbler hunting/poaching has little effect on population.
Another cause I suspect is the hardwood poison timber companies spray on tracts of timber they plan to clear cut and replant with pines. This kills everything but the evergreens. I suspect this harmful to wildlife.
Quote from: Spurs on March 23, 2015, 10:30:54 AM
Be careful what you wish for. Several rule changes that OG mentioned have been put in place in AR, as well as other states. These states are having a difficult time reversing these restrictions due to higher numbers of liberals that have slipped into power in the recent years.
What needs to happen is less dependency on our government and more reliance on ourselves.
Read and heed above, and then read it again, we are down to a two week season here...with no end in sight....The continued whining allowed the game commissions to make reg changes that give them and the whiners a warm and fuzzy feeling (REMEMBER? WE HAVE ALL HEARD IT, SOME MAY HAVE SAID IT, "THEY" HAVE TO DO SOMETHING...., it don't DO A DANG thing to make more turkeys.
improve the habitat where you can, prescribe fire as a whole is cheap
shoot all the predators you can
there are going to be years there are more and years there are less. It is what it is.