The NWTF National Convention is in Nashville next month and numerous local NWTF Chapters are soon holding their 2015 banquets. It is imperative that the "new" current marketing hype about the "long range" killing ability of several manufacturers turkey loads be both diffused and debunked. We all owe it to our sport to educate as many turkey hunters as we can about the gross misinformation and outlandish claims which are currently being promoted and advertised. As ethical hunters we all need to express our displeasure to the manufacturers marketing staff, representatives and sales agents in person and via letters, E-Mails and telephone calls. This entire myth that "60 yards is the new killing range for turkeys" needs to be stopped before it gathers further traction/media attention, and the best way is for ethical turkey hunters to express their outrage and displeasure. If the manufacturers and their marketing staff get sufficient "negative comments and publicity" they will listen and perhaps retool their marketing strategies.
As a newbie, I think it's pretty well known 40 yards(or less due to your gun/load setup), is max.
With that said I don't think anything will stop any manufacture from implying that have a edge over the competition. It's mostly their marketing department versus their R&d department.
I hope most hunters would understand that while it's certainly likely that it could be done. "Likely" is not an ethical decision or shot.
But I agree if some idiot sees that hype, they might try, but that poor decision would likely come after other poor decisions, and that type of hunter may not get an opportunity to shoot or even wound a bird if he/she did.
Contact the chapter presidents and organize a meeting, or webinar, and see if the NWTF will support speaking out against long range shooting. If they will support the effort there are many ways to proceed. They could put commercials on the hunting channels if they really want to get behind protecting the sport of hunting the wild turkey. The only way to get any company's attention is to stop buying their products. Something tells me Winchester and Environmental Metals are not going to see a drop in sales at this point. Their marketing is misleading but they have some of the best shells on the market. Educating hunters might be the best approach.
WHAT!!! My magblends are NOT good at 70 yards!!! :z-dizzy:
Quote from: dirt road ninja on January 18, 2015, 03:26:29 PM
WHAT!!! My magblends are NOT good at 70 yards!!! :z-dizzy:
Who would have ever thunk it dirt ninja!! ????
I agree the marketing is terrible and for some it's become all about killing and not the whole experience! I really like the new Winchester shells but I also know the appropriate distance at taking a gobbler....unfortunately there is some that are clueless. I wish you the best in your efforts!
God bless
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Although it seems elementary for experienced turkey hunters there are hunters on this very website out there shooting 50-70 yds. Education could start right here and at your local hunting camps and leases. Just don't think enough hunters are willing to step up and confront other hunters.
Quote from: dirt road ninja on January 18, 2015, 03:26:29 PM
WHAT!!! My magblends are NOT good at 70 yards!!! :z-dizzy:
75+ yards in this commercial http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV13RLrxUPYsAyiVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZ2wxdWhpBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDVklQNTY4XzEEc2VjA3Nj/RV=2/RE=1421647698/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.youtube.com%2fwatch%3fv%3dNUGcrp_0xSY/RK=0/RS=HLqs_liRXQjT0OQcxTNPM..PPWw-
In winchesters defense the box says nothing of killing turkey's at sixty yards only that you will have twice the pellets in a ten inch circle out to 60 yards but I agree they should have worded it differently
Quote from: Tbrady835 on January 18, 2015, 05:25:12 PM
In winchesters defense the box says nothing of killing turkey's at sixty yards only that you will have twice the pellets in a ten inch circle out to 60 yards but I agree they should have worded it differently
No, the Drury brothers take care of that on their show. Check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfPBAqOMajQ
I know the rules of Ford vs Chevy on here, but I'm glad someone called Hevi out.
First let me say I DO NOT condone 50-75 yard shots. Personally I kill most of mine 20 and in.
However it seems to me that the Hevi "cult" have ran down the LB's so much on here with "lead is lead", and you get what you pay for "$30 for 5 shells" that its time for fair to be fair.
It doesn't take 3.5 inch shells full of Hevi to kill turkeys if you will limit yourself. Just like bows and deer if you can't group 40 yards doesn't mean its ok to shoot deer that far even if you have a PSE and rage broad heads.
Now Hevi makes a great load and I've killed birds with them so I don't need the Hevi faithful to "educate" me on here. But I do know that ever bird I've killed with Hevi could've been killed with lead.
So while we are bashing Winchester for making dubious marketing claims, let's remember Hevi started it!
Yeah those drury brothers are something on there man they should have been more conservative with their support of the product
I think it's not so much about whether a shell can kill a turkey at 60, 70, 100 yards or whatever. With the chokes & shells we have today you can make ethical kills farther than the old 40 yard max rule we've used for years. Most everybody knows that's a fact. But I still don't promote doing it because I think it takes away from the sport of what turkey hunting is all about, calling them in as close as you can. I don't think companies should promote shooting them at long ranges even if their shells are capable of killing a turkey at 300 yards with a .410. In my opinion it's just bad for the sport of turkey hunting. Putting pressure on the companies that promote this is a good idea. Don't want to give novice turkey hunters the idea to shoot at a turkey 60 yds.
NWTF Jakes magazine a few months ago had the new Winchester advertised on the back and I was really upset. Kids don't need to learn a bad habit. 60 yards is too far for an adult, much less a child.
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I won't knock another hunter who is legally taking turkeys at longer ranges and making instant one shot kills. I may disagree with it and teach otherwise, but if it's legal and they can kill cleanly, the only person they are cheating is themselves...out of the thrill of turkey hunting close up. There will be those who try to push it too far and wound birds, but there probably always have been.
I will pass along to the new hunters I bring to the sport that turkey hunting is best done as a close range sport. The thrill of fooling that old tom and getting him in to "knock your hat off when he gobbles" range is worth the effort.
I've seen a TV show that's all about extreme long range shooting. They shoot animals at ranges from 600-1000 yards. I'm not wild about that either but if they can make clean kills, it's not my job to police their style of hunting. I realize that kind of shooting requires it's own set of considerable skills that I don't really have, but it's not to my taste.
That seems to be a popular argument these days. "If it's legal then it's fine." The only problem with is that it leaves out ethics. This has become a problem not with just shooting but , respecting wildlife ,other hunters, and other peoples property. Long range with a rifle and long range with a shotgun are two different things. I have a friend that's a former sniper and shooting 1000 under the right conditions is a piece of cake. He doesn't, however, go out shooting turkey's 60-70 yds with a shotgun . In the hunting community if we just go with what's legal, most people wouldn't even hunt on a place where that is the only requirement. Game management and ethical practices have developed properties throughout the country into incredible places to experience the outdoors. It's a shame that it is difficult to get people to advocate for that. If Turkey hunters and the NWTF don't make a stand against long range shooting then it probably won't happen. Folks will be allowed to shoot rifles in the not too far away future. That'll be a sad day in the turkey woods.
Rifles are legal in a few places already. I stressed they should be able to make a clean kill at their chosen distance.
I too, would like to see the NWTF stress the safety factor of long range shooting.
I have never understood why rifles are legal anywhere for turkey I mean dosent that defeat the purpose, kind of crazy to me but what do I know I'm an alabama redneck lol :you_rock:
Quote from: Tail Feathers on January 19, 2015, 07:13:39 PM
Rifles are legal in a few places already. I stressed they should be able to make a clean kill at their chosen distance.
I too, would like to see the NWTF stress the safety factor of long range shooting.
I agree with you that clean, high percentage shots is what the objective should be. The problem with shooting 50-70 yds at turkey is that a much larger percentage of turkey's are wounded and crippled. Over the years guiding I have seen turkey hunters take long shots at turkey's with high tech guns that would eat a target up at 50-60 yds. Problem is in the woods there are allot more factors than just shooting at a peice of paper off a rest. Inside 40 yds produces better results regardless of the the gun/ choke/ shell. 40 years experience in the turkey woods hunting and guiding has proven this to me time after time.
I don't agree with the marketing by Hevishot, and posted about it as soon as I saw one of their Magblend ads two years ago. That said, here is my take on things. Some guys get a thrill fighting 12 inch trout caught on dry flies using a 2x tippet. Others enjoy hanging a bait half that size on a 300 lb test trotline in hopes of snagging a 50 lb catfish. I don't knock either one, as it isn't my place to tell either guy how they should enjoy the outdoors.
Fifty years ago, everyone bowhunted with a recurve, because that was the best thing available. Most people had to practice at length to make 25 yard killing shots consistently. Now, with compound bows, carbon arrows, advanced broadheads, releases and sights, most guys willing to put in a little time shooting in their back yard can make 40 yard kill shots all day long. If you don't like that, fine, then buy yourself a recurve and start slinging arrows.
I read on this forum and others many complaints as to how the longer range abilities of the latest shells and choke combinations are ruining the sport of turkey hunting, but I can't recall anyone saying they are going back to a modified fixed choke gun loaded with high brass lead loads from the 1960's. I have a huge problem with people shooting beyond their maximum killing range and keeping their fingers crossed in hopes they get lucky, but, honestly, if a guy who is lucky to be able to hunt one morning a week is confronted with a broadside tom with his head looking like a WWII German periscope in an open field at 50 yards, and knows his rig will put his beak in the dirt pulls the trigger, I have no problem with that. It is not my place to decide what others consider a successful hunt and outdoor experience.
If we are going to diffuse and debunk the long range marketing hype we are going to have to diffuse and debunk the long range shooting hype.
"Drury Brothers". What a JOKE! I hunt MO a lot and know folks where they grew up.
---Hole. Kills Big Deer that others have scouted and located for months and he shows up to kill.
Refuses to pay. Takes all the credit. They are a joke.
He started out as a great turkey caller and winning contests. Now he is turning a blind eye to
The true sport of Turkey Hunting and calling
He is ONLY concerned about endorsement money.
Quote from: Neill_Prater on January 23, 2015, 01:09:09 AM
I don't agree with the marketing by Hevishot, and posted about it as soon as I saw one of their Magblend ads two years ago. That said, here is my take on things. Some guys get a thrill fighting 12 inch trout caught on dry flies using a 2x tippet. Others enjoy hanging a bait half that size on a 300 lb test trotline in hopes of snagging a 50 lb catfish. I don't knock either one, as it isn't my place to tell either guy how they should enjoy the outdoors.
Fifty years ago, everyone bowhunted with a recurve, because that was the best thing available. Most people had to practice at length to make 25 yard killing shots consistently. Now, with compound bows, carbon arrows, advanced broadheads, releases and sights, most guys willing to put in a little time shooting in their back yard can make 40 yard kill shots all day long. If you don't like that, fine, then buy yourself a recurve and start slinging arrows.
I read on this forum and others many complaints as to how the longer range abilities of the latest shells and choke combinations are ruining the sport of turkey hunting, but I can't recall anyone saying they are going back to a modified fixed choke gun loaded with high brass lead loads from the 1960's. I have a huge problem with people shooting beyond their maximum killing range and keeping their fingers crossed in hopes they get lucky, but, honestly, if a guy who is lucky to be able to hunt one morning a week is confronted with a broadside tom with his head looking like a WWII German periscope in an open field at 50 yards, and knows his rig will put his beak in the dirt pulls the trigger, I have no problem with that. It is not my place to decide what others consider a successful hunt and outdoor experience.
Outstanding post !
If you have spent the time at the range, done the work to your gun and you shoot HTL or TSS in patterns that exceed 100 pellets in a 10" circle at 50 and 60 yards there is no ethical argument against killing them that far.
Ill just go ahead and debunk that for ya right here and right now????
I also personally will call 40yds the max, and that's about the max I can get from what I have, but times they are changing, ethics, morals! What's that, there is not much of that anymore these days, don't believe me just watch tv, even the basic channels are smut. The last few times dad, and i was fishing somebody with a big ole flashy boat had to blow right up where we was fishing! Absolute no respect for others feelings and peace! Anyway big ammo makers want all you're money, they could care less how they get it, if it's telling people that you can shoot a turkey past xx yards then they'll do, if you buy into it, that's you're game, not mine! Using a high power rifle for turkey hunting is like using a 50 cal. Barrett for jackrabbits, it will get the job done, but severe overkill! I enjoy getting a gobbler up close, and will teach my kids the same ethics, and values, and hopefully they will pass it on to there's. If they don't come in close, you didn't earn it, and if you didn't earn it ain't worth having!
I'd love you to expand upon the not earning them aspect of your argument.
Getting a gun to shoot well at extended ranges takes far more investment than screwing a choke in and imposing a 40 yard limit on yourself.
It takes a couple hours to polish a barrel, it takes a lot of money to purchase the chokes and loads to experiment with, it takes a lot of time at the range to actually shoot and pattern those choke load combinations. There is also a sense of satisfaction achieved when you have refined a gun to shoot that well because you have earned the right to roll that bird standing at xx yards.
Furthermore, my personal experience has been that I have higher investments in the turkeys I have shot in the 50-60 yard ranges. I shot one last year coming to me at 50 yards on a dead run because I was in so much pain from the position he had me tied up in before he finally broke. I would've killed him at 15 steps but my body simply couldn't endure it.
Several years ago I crawled in an open field with my face buried in the dirt for 3 hours with a strutter and his flock before the shot materialized at 55 yards. The pants and shirt were ruined after that stalk and to this day after almost 100 turkeys that hunt still quickly comes to mind as a bird I worked exceptionally hard for.
I don't remember $hit about the turkeys that I shoot in the 20-30 yard range. It's the ones at extended ranges where my gun and persistence allowed me to be successful or the ones at point blank range.
You haven't earned a d.a.m.n. thingjust because you only shoot birds inside 40 yards, except the right to get on the Internet and act like the ethics police by making broad generalizations and sounding like a moron by rejecting the lethality of HTL and TSS at the ranges being discussed in this thread.
The point being made is....Marketing by large firms ( read ...for profit enterprise ) are making some over the top claims , a very common and reoccurring trend in the the business community , we know of folks in high rise office buildings sitting at conference tables making outlandish claims to make money , and I know of people in small operations doing the same
People take pride in their ability , turkey hunting is a skill orientated endeavor , it takes years often a lifetime to get halfway good at it , only to realize you don't know squat ....lol ...better cultured hunting circles that know how to handle themselves on a swamp bottom would never take a ridiculous shot and them come back to camp and brag about it -I would be ashamed to shoot at a turkey at rifle ranges with a shotgun or rifle , and I would never associate myself with people engaged in that activity not only for morality purposes , but for personal safety issues I don't want to be around anyone taking those way out shots , and no .....no I'm not in the mood for the 40.5 yard jokes we are talking the way....way out there garbage
I know of some turkey hunters that I grew up with that used 3 inch guns with a fixed choke , ratty U.S. issue camo , if I knew for a fact they were working the the area , I would bet my 401k plan that he would come back to camp with a gobbler , long before someone with rifle shooting ability
Skill...
as I have said before, there are turkey hunters and turkey shooters, there is a big difference between the two
Quote from: surehuntsalot on February 01, 2015, 05:56:38 PM
as I have said before, there are turkey hunters and turkey shooters, there is a big difference between the two
Agreed!!!! It's really this simple gentlemen!!!
Quote from: surehuntsalot on February 01, 2015, 05:56:38 PM
as I have said before, there are turkey hunters and turkey shooters, there is a big difference between the two
Agreed!!!! It's really this simple gentlemen!!!
Another issue I have with the TV shows about "LONG RANGE" hunting is that, they only show you/us the highlights, they never/rarely show the gut shots and if they do they dont usually show the 6, 12, 24 hours of tracking the animal which is suffering and dying. In 30 years I have made one questionable decision hunting, I shot a 6 pt with a muzzleloader from 245 steps, and the second I squeezed the trigger I regretted it (animal was recovered, after a follow up shot). I have never shot a deer with a bow over 30yds (34 to be exact) nor a turkey at more than 38 yds. If I cant call him in any closer then he wins this round, I will get up tomorrow and go back after him again (thats why they call it hunting and not just killing).
Quote from: surehuntsalot on February 01, 2015, 05:56:38 PM
as I have said before, there are turkey hunters and turkey shooters, there is a big difference between the two
That's the truth..well said.