My brother has been boiling and whitening deer & bear skulls here in VA for a good many years now. Several years ago he was told that he needed a taxidermy license in order to continue doing them so he got his license and has kept it current.
Well the game warden came by a couple months ago and asked to see his records. My brother showed him the names and check-in confirmation #'s for everyone he had done a head for. Game warden said that was not good enough and wrote him a ticket saying he should have hunters address, ph. #, date of kill, date head was brought to him and date it was picked up. He also told him that he needed to update all of his records for the past 3 years before he came back or he would issue him another ticket.
My brother was just going to pay the fine and forget about it but was told he had to appear in court. While waiting in the courthouse a lawyer friend of ours saw him and asked why he was there. Upon hearing the reason he told my brother to follow him to a back room. He gave him a state law book and told him to read a certain part to the judge.
The judge asked my brother what his "taxidermy practice" consisted of whereupon he told him that he boiled skulls. The judge then asked if he had anything to say in his defense and he read from the book our lawyer friend gave him.
What did he read you ask?...the state definition of a taxidermist.
Taxidermy - The art or operation of preparing, stuffing, and mounting the skins of dead animals for exhibition in a lifelike state.
Taxidermist - A craftsman who stuffs and mounts the skins of animals for display
The judge dismissed the case.
I have 2 questions...
1. Why is the hunter's name and his check-in confirmation # not enough for his records?
and...
2. If the court does not consider what he does as taxidermy why does he even need a license?
The questions that you have can only be answered by specifically looking at the statutes and regs of Virginia (or whatever state he is situated).
In other words, what does the law say about information to be recorded and maintained by such people?
It doesn't matter what everyone else "thinks," it only matters what the law says. If the law is not liked, people need to speak with their state reps and senators.
Quote from: Turkey Trot on May 27, 2014, 03:37:57 PM
The questions that you have can only be answered by specifically looking at the statutes and regs of Virginia (or whatever state he is situated).
In other words, what does the law say about information to be recorded and maintained by such people?
It doesn't matter what everyone else "thinks," it only matters what the law says. If the law is not liked, people need to speak with their state reps and senators.
Guess I should have clarified...If the court says one thing and the game warden says the opposite on the same matter, which do you abide by? Confusing huh!
Personally, if the book doesn't classify him as a taxidermist, I'd not worry about it. If, however, he wants to not deal with the issue in the future, I'd get current. Was the ticketing co present?
Quote from: barry on May 27, 2014, 03:32:13 PM
I have 2 questions...
1. Why is the hunter's name and his check-in confirmation # not enough for his records?
and...
2. If the court does not consider what he does as taxidermy why does he even need a license?
My answers are based on supposition only...
For question #1, the whole reason that you need the name and number of the clients is to prove that you are not harvesting excess game, and that you are not selling wild game once it is finished. The date is important, cause if you just have the name with no records of when it was dropped off or picked up, it would be easy for an unscrupulous taxidermist to harvest or sell excess game.
With those dates, it is easy to tell who the customers are, when the dropped off the animal, and that he only has the animals he should have...
Question #2... I would guess maybe he actually does not need a license, or he does need one to have over the possession limit on animals from clients... Say the possession limit is 3 deer, and your brother is working on 10 deer; would he not be over the possession limit?
Well, if that's all there is to it then there shouldn't be an issue. However, it may be an issue with the taxidermy license requirements and the statutory language attached to it. Is a taxidermy license required for any preparation of animals for display, should be found somewhere in the code? I'm not sure how it is in VA but in WV there are several codes that will allow one thing but the next code says you no. All law books need burned and started over fresh.
Another thing, it sounds like he probably appeared in magistrate court, or Virginias equivalent to a magistrate. In most cases those judges have no law degree and only interpret the law to the best of their ability. As for the court being able to discern the difference it would probably be required to be decided on by a higher court. I would be willing to guess that if the state wanted to push the issue they could appeal it to circuit or district court at which point it could be cleared up.
If it was me I'd keep my license, and begin to keep better records. As far as the ticket is concerned, I would be glad I got out of it and just be prepared for any future inspection by the warden, because now at this point he will be watching.
be glad you got out of it but you know they are coming back
Quote from: Marc on May 27, 2014, 04:33:00 PM
Quote from: barry on May 27, 2014, 03:32:13 PM
For question #1, the whole reason that you need the name and number of the clients is to prove that you are not harvesting excess game, and that you are not selling wild game once it is finished. The date is important, cause if you just have the name with no records of when it was dropped off or picked up, it would be easy for an unscrupulous taxidermist to harvest or sell excess game.
With those dates, it is easy to tell who the customers are, when the dropped off the animal, and that he only has the animals he should have...
In VA the check-in confirmation # tells you who killed it, date of kill and sex of kill but that was not enuff info according to this warden.
Quote from: wvmntnhick on May 27, 2014, 04:16:40 PM
Personally, if the book doesn't classify him as a taxidermist, I'd not worry about it. If, however, he wants to not deal with the issue in the future, I'd get current. Was the ticketing co present?
Yes, the warden was standing right beside him when the judge dismissed it. Another local LEO has told us that 90% of this particular warden's cases are thrown out of court.
Quote from: Gooserbat on May 27, 2014, 04:45:09 PM
If it was me I'd keep my license, and begin to keep better records. As far as the ticket is concerned, I would be glad I got out of it and just be prepared for any future inspection by the warden, because now at this point he will be watching.
Quote from: Dirt nap on May 27, 2014, 05:05:32 PM
be glad you got out of it but you know they are coming back
No doubt, we know he'll be back. That's why I'm having a friend in the game department do some research so we know exactly what the law is. This same friend told me over the phone today that he thought it was all bull$#&% and was glad the case was dismissed
Quote from: Dirt nap on May 27, 2014, 05:05:32 PM
be glad you got out of it but you know they are coming back
Yep he's on a list. Your borther needs to get a copy of that law book for when Mr warden comes back
Quote from: SinGin on May 27, 2014, 06:28:05 PM
Quote from: Dirt nap on May 27, 2014, 05:05:32 PM
be glad you got out of it but you know they are coming back
Yep he's on a list. Your borther needs to get a copy of that law book for when Mr warden comes back
Working on getting everything in writing to have on hand for when he does come back
Does VA have a board composed of citizens for oversight of the wildlife or natural resources department?
Your friend should be getting to know them and start raising a little cane and get to the supervisors at HQ. A letter, the ticket, and a copy of the dismissal order (or anything memorializing dismissal) should be sent to them.
If you smack a dumb LEO through HQ enough, he will eventually stay away.
I have some experience in which a smart arse game warden in GA seized a bunch of varmint traps while no one was present. The owner did not go to him for the traps, he went to his friend, whom was serving as governor, then through the DNR board and staff supervisors. He got reamed and he decided to stay away when he found out who the friends were.
Quote from: Turkey Trot on May 28, 2014, 01:30:11 PM
Does VA have a board composed of citizens for oversight of the wildlife or natural resources department?
Your friend should be getting to know them and start raising a little cane and get to the supervisors at HQ. A letter, the ticket, and a copy of the dismissal order (or anything memorializing dismissal) should be sent to them.
If you smack a dumb LEO through HQ enough, he will eventually stay away.
I have some experience in which a smart arse game warden in GA seized a bunch of varmint traps while no one was present. The owner did not go to him for the traps, he went to his friend, whom was serving as governor, then through the DNR board and staff supervisors. He got reamed and he decided to stay away when he found out who the friends were.
We have a friend in the VA Game Dept and he is doing some investigating to see what he can find out, and yes, VA does have a board of directors and I have a contact for our district rep just in case
This is unfortunate. Some game officers are crooks and use intimidation to their advantage. It gives the good ones a bad rep. I'm glad your brother was able to get the bogus charge dismissed.
Quote from: Snoodsniper on May 29, 2014, 02:40:51 AM
This is unfortunate. Some game officers are crooks and use intimidation to their advantage. It gives the good ones a bad rep. I'm glad your brother was able to get the bogus charge dismissed.
I wouldn't this officer is a crook but he certainly could have handled this matter in an entirely different fashion. To make matters worse he told us he could give us tickets for every old deer rack we have on our shop wall if we didn't have documentation for it. Some of these racks are 30-40 years old!
I know a fellow that has over 50 deer racks hanging in a big cluster in a tree in his yard ! A GW rode by his house & saw them in the tree. The GW knocked on his door & told him he wanted to see a game tag for every rack in that tree. My friend said " I bought all them racks @ the flea market " ! The GW shook his head & left ! TRUE STORY ! :icon_thumright:
I'd recommend calling the GW's supervisor and posing the question to him. If his guy is writing tickets that don't pass court muster, he would be interested in stopping that practice.
Jeopardy has attached, so he's out of the woods on the charge so there is no harm in asking.
I'd bring up the other issues here regarding possession limits and such as well. That way, he can be prepared for the future. A phone call for some clarification could save him some heartache down the road.
Honestly, it doesn't sound like gathering that extra information would hinder your brother too much anyway.
Quote from: barry on May 27, 2014, 03:32:13 PM
My brother has been boiling and whitening deer & bear skulls here in VA for a good many years now. Several years ago he was told that he needed a taxidermy license in order to continue doing them so he got his license and has kept it current.
Well the game warden came by a couple months ago and asked to see his records. My brother showed him the names and check-in confirmation #'s for everyone he had done a head for. Game warden said that was not good enough and wrote him a ticket saying he should have hunters address, ph. #, date of kill, date head was brought to him and date it was picked up. He also told him that he needed to update all of his records for the past 3 years before he came back or he would issue him another ticket.
My brother was just going to pay the fine and forget about it but was told he had to appear in court. While waiting in the courthouse a lawyer friend of ours saw him and asked why he was there. Upon hearing the reason he told my brother to follow him to a back room. He gave him a state law book and told him to read a certain part to the judge.
The judge asked my brother what his "taxidermy practice" consisted of whereupon he told him that he boiled skulls. The judge then asked if he had anything to say in his defense and he read from the book our lawyer friend gave him.
What did he read you ask?...the state definition of a taxidermist.
Taxidermy - The art or operation of preparing, stuffing, and mounting the skins of dead animals for exhibition in a lifelike state.
Taxidermist - A craftsman who stuffs and mounts the skins of animals for display
The judge dismissed the case.
I have 2 questions...
1. Why is the hunter's name and his check-in confirmation # not enough for his records?
and...
2. If the court does not consider what he does as taxidermy why does he even need a license?
Maybe he is taking work away from someone that has ties to said game warden ??
I would call his boss and tell him what his employees is up to . explain what he has done. most of the time they will help you out .
Sent from my C811 4G