I've started watching the new Turkey Thugs show sponsored by Mossy Oak. It's a good show and they have some serious professional turkey hunters on there every week. The show has a sort of teaching theme to it where they ask the experts questions about turkey hunting and they all answer the question in turn. Pretty good stuff usually. This weeks show ask a question about shot size for turkey hunting. Every pro on the show answered the same thing:
5 shot
Thoughts?
I agree with em...I shot 5's when I shot lead...switched to 6's when I went to HTL.
Lead 5's hit em hard as does the HTL 6's
My thoughts are....they are correct sir!!
I feel these birds are tough and anything smaller than #6s borders on hunter ethics
Albeit I respect every one of them guys hunting abilities except one.. The answer to your question, they are all old school killers..
Quote from: shootumindaface on March 16, 2011, 09:16:31 AM
Albeit I respect every one of them guys hunting abilities.. The answer to your question, they are all old school killers..
:agreed: :agreed:
Does their sponsors have anything to do with what they say they are using ?
I doubt it. Mossy Oak makes clothes not shotgun shells.
Quotethey are all old school killers..
Yep. There's still alot of old school hunters that swear by lead #4s as well. Many of them rarely pattern their guns, they just go kill turkeys.
Quote from: shootumindaface on March 16, 2011, 09:16:31 AM
Albeit I respect every one of them guys hunting abilities except one.. The answer to your question, they are all old school killers..
Just a little research and understanding of basic physics and the properties of energy and penetration makes this statement
Quote from: bad0351 on March 16, 2011, 09:15:21 AM
My thoughts are....they are correct sir!!
I feel these birds are tough and anything smaller than #6s borders on hunter ethics
absolutely ridiculous.
You just have to think of Ping Pong ball (lead #5) vs a kids 1/2" rubber bouncy ball (HTL #7 or #8) Which hurts more when it hits you? Same principle when thinking of shot.
QuoteYes, lead 5s were and are a great choice for killing turkeys.
70% of their audience still uses Lead, and won't pay for HTL.
The 30% who have already moved on to HTL, probably don't need their ammo advice anyway.
Quote from: bad0351 on March 16, 2011, 09:15:21 AM
My thoughts are....they are correct sir!!
I feel these birds are tough and anything smaller than #6s borders on hunter ethics
thats the great thing about ethics everyone who has a brain has different ethical standards :begging:
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on March 16, 2011, 10:04:29 AM
70% of their audience still uses Lead, and won't pay for HTL.
The 30% who have already moved on to HTL, probably don't need their ammo advice anyway.
Agreed...the ratio might be closer to 90/10.
I wouldn't expect any "pro" to recommend the #7 1/2's lead rounds I've been using. Well....maybe Ray Eye...but not on TV. :D
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on March 16, 2011, 10:04:29 AM
70% of their audience still uses Lead, and won't pay for HTL.
The 30% who have already moved on to HTL, probably don't need their ammo advice anyway.
:z-winnersmiley:
If you guys want to read what the HTL crowd here on OG is up against, you need to go to, Outdoor Life.com ASK A QUESTION section, and read the answers to BIG RED C'S question for a dedicated 12 or 20 guage gun that will kill turkeys to 50+ yards. These guys, that give Big Red answers, believe you shouldn't shoot a turkey unless he is inside 30 yards.
With the technology we have with Today's Guns, Chokes and HTL shotshells, these guys are lost in the Stone Age.
Maybe we need to return to being Cavemen and bludgeon the birds to death, after we run them down. LOL
We need to continue educating our fellow hunters on Today's technology and the limitations of HTL.
I want to Thank each one of you for the shared information you have put out on this website to educate the benefits of HTL. WHICH BY THE WAY INCLUDES ME!!!!
Quote from: bad0351 on March 16, 2011, 09:15:21 AM
My thoughts are....they are correct sir!!
I feel these birds are tough and anything smaller than #6s borders on hunter ethics
how foolish but I will leave it at that.
What is foolish? The fact that someone could possibly have the unmitigated gall to just disagree with you?
The first post asked for thoughts on the subject...that's all, not a lecture on ballistics...(On which I'm sure your expert)...
Quote from: bad0351 on March 16, 2011, 11:43:18 AM
What is foolish? The fact that someone could possibly have the unmitigated gall to just disagree with you?
The first post asked for thoughts on the subject...that's all, not a lecture on ballistics...(On which I'm sure your expert)...
have you not seen the patterns people have got with the H13 #7s?
have you not seen the penetration tests people have done using the H13 #7?
have you not seen all the reports of birds killed at 50+ yards using the H13 #7s?
if you are comfortable using lead 6s or even 5s then it is foolish to believe that hevi #7s are unethical when all the data goes against that. Sure these birds are tough but we arent shooting elephants here.
I've also been watching that show on a pretty regular basis. I like the idea that they ask a variety of hunters the same questions. They sometimes agree on a subject and sometimes differ, kind of what you'd expect from any group of hunters or shooters.
They also seem to show hunts in different parts of the country and seem to be showing more actual hunting clips on the most recent episodes than on the earlier ones.
Good show.
Thanks,
Clark
shot size dont matter to me. i call em in so close all i need is the muzzle blast!
seariously. i can call em in close! so that means more money in my pocket and i dont have to break the bank to buy 5 shells
I've seen all the data and opinions....if you think its ethical to shoot at 50 yds and beyond, that's fine...have you ever had a bird flinch right when you pull the trigger? Or have you ever flinched dropping the hammer....at the ranges your talking about a few #7s or 8s are gonna wound not kill...on the other hand...at 40 and under a few #5s?.....dead bird...shot size is a choice we all make but nh outlaws any shot smaller than 6 for a reason...ethics....
I say shoot what you like and are comfortable with regardless of how much it costs. Your perference is your preference! Lead or Hevi, both will kill a turkey. They can only be so dead! I hunt with a fellow that up until a couple of years ago only shot 2 3/4" Winchester #4's and he started spring gobbler hunting when you were the only man in the woods in April and May.
(http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/12/122599/1707034-like_where_this_thread_is_going_jpg_super.jpg)
Quote from: bad0351 on March 16, 2011, 12:09:56 PM
I've seen all the data and opinions....if you think its ethical to shoot at 50 yds and beyond, that's fine...have you ever had a bird flinch right when you pull the trigger? Or have you ever flinched dropping the hammer....at the ranges your talking about a few #7s or 8s are gonna wound not kill...on the other hand...at 40 and under a few #5s?.....dead bird...shot size is a choice we all make but nh outlaws any shot smaller than 6 for a reason...ethics....
its not ethics....they have no idea what hevi #7s are capable of let alone TSS #8s and #9s
A few #7s will kill. It only takes 1.
I can throw a baseball and hit a turkey in the head and kill it.....but not the body...wing...legs beyond 50 yds
I'm guessing TSS #8's will out penetrate a thrown baseball at 50 yards. :D
Quote from: trkehunr93 on March 16, 2011, 12:14:30 PM
I hunt with a fellow that up until a couple of years ago only shot 2 3/4" Winchester #4's and he started spring gobbler hunting when you were the only man in the woods in April and May.
Along time ago in a galaxy far far away.............Turkey Hunters used #4 shot :TooFunny:
I tend to agree :laugh: However, I know guys (actually almost every one who is noton this sight) who will want to get into heated arguments with me when I simply imply that they do not the capabilities of Hevi #7's.
Even from randy Johnson??
Quote from: bad0351 on March 16, 2011, 01:34:00 PM
Even from randy Johnson??
Game departments frown on his use. I'm not sure why...
(http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/11/2007/04/RandyJohnsonIsAPrettyGirl.jpg)
I'm sorry but anyone that thinks denser than lead 6's or 7's are unethical and that shots at 50 yards are still a poke and hope deal with some of todays loads and chokes are just woefully uneducated on the equipment and ammo that's out there today. And that's as nice as I can say that.
I shot a turkey two years ago with a 3 inch Winchester Extended range number 6. Their version of a DTL shell. The gobbler was 40 yards away and had his left side facing me. It not only killed him cleanly but when I got him home and cleaned him I discovered that some of the pellets from the lower part of my pattern had hit him in the upper left breast. Those pellets had gone through his wing, his breast feathers, the meat of his left breast, his breast plate, and were lodged half way through the meat of his right breast. With body penetration like that from 40 yards away, I have no doubt in the effectiveness of smaller sized DTL shot on a turkeys head and neck at much greater distances.
I've never seen the show. This is my take from what I have read. You have five pro turkey hunters that hunt for the TV audience some hunters and some not hunters watching with wife or girlfriend. These guys have only about two months to hunt and travel to make shows. They're probably hunting pretty much none pressured birds unlike me and some of you. So they also have to get everything on camera up close. I doubt they spend the time patterning to many shells. Go with what works for you and your hunting conditions. May it be 5's, 6's, or 7's. to each his own and happy hunting.
Quote from: stick bow on March 16, 2011, 03:56:04 PM
I've never seen the show. This is my take from what I have read. You have five pro turkey hunters that hunt for the TV audience some hunters and some not hunters watching with wife or girlfriend. These guys have only about two months to hunt and travel to make shows. They're probably hunting pretty much none pressured birds unlike me and some of you. So they also have to get everything on camera up close. I doubt they spend the time patterning to many shells. Go with what works for you and your hunting conditions. May it be 5's, 6's, or 7's. to each his own and happy hunting.
Actually no, the show is kinda what everyone wants.. They are not "pro" turkey hunters.. They are turkey hunters that may have a reputation locally of being a murderer.. The guys really dont hunt much on the show but are they giving advice they have acquired.. Paul Butski is probably the only well known hunter on there.. I have heard many a times of Bob Walker being a turkey killing fool that has flown under the radar.. The other 3 I have no clue who they are but 2 of them give spot on advice..
I love the show and DVR it every week but I cant remember a single episode where any one of the five pro hunters was hunting. All the hunts I've seen have been other people hunting and the pros are answering questions on the weeks topic.
Well here is my insight on this, all the lead shooters WILL at one point in time have to switch to HTL sometime soon in the near future because the way things are going with the EPA lead is slowly vanishing anyways, and just think, all of us HTL shooters that have been trying out multiple chokes and different shell manufacture combinations will have tried and true recipes that the lead shooters will have to one day switch over and the cost $$ of making this switch in the future is not decreasing any by no means.
So why all the hype about Heavy shot or heavier than lead, well the manufacturer's know where this is heading!and in my opinion Hevi13 and federal are already on the ship sailing into the future and have that being said, Dont Miss The Boat!
The show is pretty good, Paul Butski has been killing birds and guiding since before i remember,have a pic with him from 1989, Bob Walker is also a killing & calling machine, don't know the other two personally, but if Cuz & Toxey ok'd them, they got to be good folks, and turkey killers, i totally agreed with the #5 shot advice, been shooting Fed 3" 2oz #5's in a1187 for several years, have two kills over 60yds with the setup, bought a 2nd fully camo'd 1187 last year, shot it with the same setup, best i did was 60 pellets in 10" at 40, went & got some magnum blend today 3" 2oz 5,6,7 mix 1187 26" barrel, rem super full choke (got 170 count in 10" at 40), now I'm ready to go, use the old gun for a backup now
Let's not jump to any conclusions. No one said they are shooting lead. Nitro sells a very effective load of 3 1/2", 2 7/16 oz of # 5 Hevi Shot.
I have the neck of a turkey killed with Hevi weight Fed #7. All the pellets penetrated the spine and skull completely. I have no doubts about HTL #7. Anyone who does not believe in the HTL #7 has their head in the sand and i bet believes the world is flat. It is a new ball game folks, get onboard or get left out. Lead #4-6 is perfect for killing turkeys. But in HTL, #6HS- #7 HS or #8 - #9 TSS is the cats meow.
Smaller denser shots allow higher shot count, will lose it's velocity slower at extended ranges, and penetrate further at extended ranges. Throw a volley ball and a baseball at ninety mph hour which one goes further why density and size. Now think how easy a needle can penetrate compared to a railroad spike smaller penetrates better. Number 5 lead great turkey killer. Personally i'll take those htl 7's. Higher velociy at extended ranges, check. More penetration at extended ranges, check. Higher pellet count on target at extended ranges, check. Obviously there's not much of an arguement for what's the most deadly. It's ok to just be happy with dead and it's great to be an ethical hunter but being more deadly is more ethical than just deadly anytime as long as it's not to damaging to the game/prey.IMOP
You guys seem to be missing my point on ethics.....I do have a problem with shot size smaller that 6s...lead or htl...but my main concern is with those that think it's perfectly acceptable to take shots at 55, 60, 65 yds and beyond.
No matter how many pellets are in an over the counter load...which most people only have the means to shoot, at those ranges the shot pattern begins falling apart very rapidly...with holes developing in the pattern as well.
the way some here talk it wont be long with todays "super improved equipment" that they will be taking shots at birds 80 yds beyond...I mean really, come on, a shell is only one part of the equation....the gun and choke combo does the work of putting the payload downrange and as Pure Gold chokes say....the chokes they build are NOT meant to extend the effective range of the shell....just put a better pattern together at reasonable and ethical hunting range.
my buddy knows butski and walker personally. they have other people calling for them most of the time. walker is the most arrogant guy since his game ear has takin him the profits. there is a guy in sullivan that calls , records for these guys and he does the calling without any calls. just his mouth. now thats old school indeed.. i had a chance to hear this guy in feb., and he is awesome. what a talent
Quote from: stinkpickle on March 16, 2011, 01:48:05 PM
Quote from: bad0351 on March 16, 2011, 01:34:00 PM
Even from randy Johnson??
Game departments frown on his use. I'm not sure why...
(http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/11/2007/04/RandyJohnsonIsAPrettyGirl.jpg)
I think it is his mullet. He has too much mullitude. :you_rock:
want to Thank each one of you for the shared information you have put out on this website to educate the benefits of HTL. WHICH BY THE WAY INCLUDES ME!!!!
[/quote]
Me too. Just started last year. chose #7s this year just in time for the (bad batch). If you told me 3 or 4 years ago to use 7s I would question your knowledge. Turns out mine would be in question. Penetration is not even a thought any more. Only question is, can you put the shot in there
Quote from: archery1 on March 19, 2011, 12:41:10 AM
my buddy knows butski and walker personally. they have other people calling for them most of the time. walker is the most arrogant guy since his game ear has takin him the profits. there is a guy in sullivan that calls , records for these guys and he does the calling without any calls. just his mouth. now thats old school indeed.. i had a chance to hear this guy in feb., and he is awesome. what a talent
The Bob Walker on the show is not same Bob Walker that started Walker's Game Ear. He's a guide from Alabama's Bent Creek Lodge. And why would Paul Butski have other people calling for him most of the time???
Quote from: bbcoach on March 16, 2011, 10:59:46 AM
If you guys want to read what the HTL crowd here on OG is up against, you need to go to, Outdoor Life.com ASK A QUESTION section, and read the answers to BIG RED C'S question for a dedicated 12 or 20 guage gun that will kill turkeys to 50+ yards. These guys, that give Big Red answers, believe you shouldn't shoot a turkey unless he is inside 30 yards.
With the technology we have with Today's Guns, Chokes and HTL shotshells, these guys are lost in the Stone Age.
Maybe we need to return to being Cavemen and bludgeon the birds to death, after we run them down. LOL
We need to continue educating our fellow hunters on Today's technology and the limitations of HTL.
I want to Thank each one of you for the shared information you have put out on this website to educate the benefits of HTL. WHICH BY THE WAY INCLUDES ME!!!!
If you want to shot them a mile out its your choice do what you want. Everyone has there own way,no way is right or wrong if its legal.
I choose to shot no Jakes and a Gobbler needs to be at 20 yards or less and must gobble and strut before I shot. Its just what I do.
If you want to shot them a mile out its your choice do what you want. Everyone has there own way,no way is right or wrong if its legal.
I choose to shot no Jakes and a Gobbler needs to be at 20 yards or less and must gobble and strut before I shot. Its just what I do.
[/quote]
BigGobbler
I applaud you on the restrictions you've put on yourself when turkey hunting. It tells me a lot about what kind of turkey hunter you are.
Unfortunately I'm going to have to disagree with you about "no way is right or wrong if its legal" Something doesn't have to be legaly wrong to be ethically wrong. It's legal to shoot at a turkey at a range that has a good chance of wounding a bird instead of killing it, but it's ethically wrong. We need to remember that turkeys, like any other wildlife, if they get just one hole of any size in their stomach or intestines will die 100% of the time. It may not be quick and it may not be pretty but it will happen. We owe it to the turkeys do try to kill as quickly and humanely as possible at whatever range that may be.. As a friend of mine says: "Hunt hard, Shoot straight, Kill clean and Apologize to no one."
Quote from: stinkpickle on March 20, 2011, 04:58:24 PM
Quote from: archery1 on March 19, 2011, 12:41:10 AM
my buddy knows butski and walker personally. they have other people calling for them most of the time. walker is the most arrogant guy since his game ear has takin him the profits. there is a guy in sullivan that calls , records for these guys and he does the calling without any calls. just his mouth. now thats old school indeed.. i had a chance to hear this guy in feb., and he is awesome. what a talent
The Bob Walker on the show is not same Bob Walker that started Walker's Game Ear. He's a guide from Alabama's Bent Creek Lodge. And why would Paul Butski have other people calling for him most of the time???
I was biting my tounge The bob walker in the show is a turkey killing machine.. Paul Butski is old school but turkey none the less, he doesnt have folks call in his birds for him
Quote from: TrackeySauresRex on March 16, 2011, 12:48:56 PM
Quote from: trkehunr93 on March 16, 2011, 12:14:30 PM
I hunt with a fellow that up until a couple of years ago only shot 2 3/4" Winchester #4's and he started spring gobbler hunting when you were the only man in the woods in April and May.
Along time ago in a galaxy far far away.............Turkey Hunters used #4 shot :TooFunny:
:agreed:
He has since upgraded to 2 3/4" Winchester #5's but that was only because he sent his old Winchester pump to get it camo dipped and they somehow screwed up the choke/barrel and he sent it to Rhino and put in a custom choke and they recommended the 5's. The Winchester he shoots is only chambered for 2 3/4", and he bought this gun brand new in the mid 70's. Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess! It's a turkey thumper though! I am hoping he will's it to me.