Winchester had a nice display of the Birchwood Casey Turkey Splattering Targets which had been shot at various ranges w/ different sizes of shot through approximately 4" of ballistic gelatin w/ the Longbeard XR's. It was a neat set-up w/ the targets and gel mounted in rectangular sealed plexiglass boxes. The patterns and penetration was impressive esp. w/ the 6's and 5's at 40 yards. They had several of the targets which had been shot w/ 4's at extreme ranges ( I remember two which were at 60 and 70 yards). I was surprised w/ the penetration, but it was definitely a bird crippling range due to the shot dispersal and lack of cranial/spinal hits. I sat back and listened to the sales rep discuss the long-range effectiveness and killing potential of the shells to several individuals before I politely stepped up and asked him several pointed questions about the crippling potential and ethics of promoting long range shots. Frankly, his response was straight off of the Drury's video script that the shell will revolutionize the effective ranges that turkey's can be cleanly killed. In years past, I've talked w/ the folks at the Hevi-Shot booth and in Oregon about the ethics of promoting the 60-70 yard claims for the MagBlends with similar results. It's obvious that these folks are just trying to sell and market shotshells with absolutely no regard or respect for turkeys, safety and the ethics of the sport. It is incumbent and imperative that the members of Old Gobbler educate other hunters about the fallacy of the effectiveness of long range shooting at turkeys and the increased inherent danger which it presents to other hunters.
I agree!!! One reason I personally like bigger numbers in the 10" @40 is in case I misjudge a bird by a "FEW" (few being defined as less than 5) yards. If a person gets out and shoots a reasonable amount at 40 yards in a open field and does the same in a more wooded area you will EASILY learn what those distances look like. I do love the patterns I'm seeing everyone post with the new LB load...but, I am totally not crazy about Winchester promoting the whole long range thing. I do, however, see the new LB load as a positive thing as a cost effective solution to HTL and it's gonna sell like crazy with the numbers folks are getting at 40 yards alone....and that being said, I don't understand why Winchester felt the need to promote it as they have.
You should have told him that their shell was still nothing more than lead shot traveling at 1200 fps. Only thing special about it is the resin, which makes it pattern amazing. I have seen the gel pics of the larger shot at 70 yards, and if that rep considers that pattern ethical, then he is just plain stupid. Ok yea there was 5 pellets in the head and neck at 70 yards with the 4's. What if the wind was blowing some and those 5 pellets didn't hit that bird in the head and neck, but in the breast instead? You end up with a crippled bird. Hevi Shot is the same way promoting Mag Blends out to 70 yards. That's hogwash, and painting the wrong picture about turkey hunters. You have to have some ethics in hunting, other wise there probably wouldn't be any game laws or nothing. You have to have respect for the animal. When I bow hunt, my bow has the capability of killing a deer at 100+ yards if I want it to, but I try to keep my shots at 30 yards and under, because I know that so many things can happen at those longer distances that could mess up my arrow and cause me to wound that animal. It just kills me that these companies care more about their money, than the turkey.
Unless these are especially dense "lead" shot I don't get the deeper penetration statement since it is advertised at 1200 fps and the HV win lead are 1300 fps. If someone can explain this one please do so.
Quote from: RAJ on February 17, 2014, 10:02:56 PM
Unless these are especially dense "lead" shot I don't get the deeper penetration statement since it is advertised at 1200 fps and the HV win lead are 1300 fps. If someone can explain this one please do so.
Voodoo
The increased penetration, 10% is what I believe they are marketing, is confusing. I'm wondering if they are claiming this because the shot stays more uniform. Don't know. Pb 6's running a 100 fps slower and penetrating better...hmm..Shell companies just seem to get carried away with their marketing. Their claims of 60-70yds killing patterns was when I stopped listening to their marketing. One thing for sure is better patterns inside 40yds. Music to a turkey hunters ears. That works for me.
Here is a question for the physics experts (of which I am not)...
If the shot string stays together/has a smaller surface area as a whole, would the shot be more aerodynamic?
It seems to me that if the pattern opens closer to the barrel each pellet has to overcome drag rather than the leading edge of the shot string breaking the "surface tension". Basically the larger the surface area the more drag and resistance effects energy.
Supposedly the resin not only keeps the shot closer but keeps the lead pellets from getting deformed. Non deformed pellets fly straighter and penetrate better..ideally. This sounds like a science project. I can't wait to see how they resinate on Ol' Toms head. :fud: That's the test that solves the riddle for me. Heard 4-5 turkey's gobble the other morning..setting up blinds for youth season this weekend..gitrdone..
Possibly more shot stays together longer and creates drafting, maintaining velocity longer as distance increases?
Quote from: Quax on February 18, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
Possibly more shot stays together longer and creates drafting, maintaining velocity longer as distance increases?
Sounds good to me! I am highly confident hunting with these shells.
Makes sense. Staying on direction keeps everything truer. Almost liking drafting on a high way.
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Its great the companies are making the shells better, but its still up to you and I to take an ethical shot.
Quote from: bmhern on February 18, 2014, 09:34:34 AM
Its great the companies are making the shells better, but its still up to you and I to take an ethical shot.
Very true..we are now hunting with Winchester Longbeard Xtended Range, Shot Lock'd, Resin Incapsilated, anti-pellet deforming, tighter patterning, deeper penetrating, pellet drafting shells..if there are problems killing turkey's with these shells..it's the turkey on the other side of the gun. :boon:
*all that equates to..if the turkey gets inside 40yds, there's a better chance he will ride home in the back of the truck.
Well said .Lee
My thinking is, and I may be wrong, w/ the shot staying round instead of deforming, it keep up velocity, increasing penetration over deformed shot. The " draft effect"(??) Should also keep velocities. These combined, round shot and better (downrange) velocity should keep patterns tight( we've definetly seen that) and pellets striking the target at a higher rate of speed. The only way to know bout downrange velocity is to test w/ a very large chrono. Or do penetration tests side by side with other lead loads. May be wrong, I'm just a dumb ol country boy. That's just my thoughts on it.
Hey, I guess I could open up the season early and do a real downrange test if y'all like. All in the name of science of course... :z-guntootsmiley:
Jus kiddin of course. :angel9:
gonna be a bunch of disappointed folks inside of 25 and past 45 im afraid :character0029:
I'd really like to know how much antimony was added to their lead shotshells. That would give one a better idea of the penetration they might have because they would be harder then shells with less antimony. I'm hoping some day we find out just to factor that into the equation.
I been turkey hunting a long time and the hunt itself is about reversing nature and fooling and old tom. If you need to shoot at a turkey or have to kill a turkey at a long range use a rifle if it is legal in your state. I have not shot at turkeys at 40 yards because it was simply too thick. I pass on birds that are young. I try to match my abilities against the best mother nature has to offer. Try taking your hunt to a new level you owe that to the birds. Some TV shows take ethics and throw them a away for the sake of the show. I would much rather see a show where they let the bird walk and place blame on improper set up or the inability of calling that bird in for an clean quick kill. Some of you may agree or disagree with what I have wrote but this is how I see it and how I hunt. I have patterned the WLB's in two guns and like the results but they will not change the way I hunt.
Quote from: knightrider on February 18, 2014, 05:55:23 PM
gonna be a bunch of disappointed folks inside of 25 and past 45 im afraid :character0029:
Anyone used to shooting HTL is used to the softball/ volleyball size patterns at close range. The tightest pattern I've shot up close were with nitro and hevi 7's. These long beard patterns don't look much tighter. If folks have never shot tight patterns they might want to spend sometime at the range. Shoot the gun up close and see what you are dealing with..aim small miss small..try to avoid lifting your cheek off the stock and avoid snatching on the trigger.
Quote from: Longshanks on February 18, 2014, 07:27:31 PM
Quote from: knightrider on February 18, 2014, 05:55:23 PM
gonna be a bunch of disappointed folks inside of 25 and past 45 im afraid :character0029:
Anyone used to shooting HTL is used to the softball/ volleyball size patterns at close range. The tightest pattern I've shot up close were with nitro and hevi 7's. These long beard patterns don't look much tighter. If folks have never shot tight patterns they might want to spend sometime at the range. Shoot the gun up close and see what you are dealing with..aim small miss small..try to avoid lifting your cheek off the stock and avoid snatching on the trigger.
that is true for folks on here but im talking about the majority of the public who is gonna buy the#6 and start sling lead at turkeys at the 55-70 range because the drury boys told them they could
Quote from: Longshanks on February 18, 2014, 07:27:31 PM
Quote from: knightrider on February 18, 2014, 05:55:23 PM
gonna be a bunch of disappointed folks inside of 25 and past 45 im afraid :character0029:
Anyone used to shooting HTL is used to the softball/ volleyball size patterns at close range. The tightest pattern I've shot up close were with nitro and hevi 7's. These long beard patterns don't look much tighter. If folks have never shot tight patterns they might want to spend sometime at the range. Shoot the gun up close and see what you are dealing with..aim small miss small..try to avoid lifting your cheek off the stock and avoid snatching on the trigger.
:z-winnersmiley: X 1 million
I have seen this comment 5 or 6 times concerning these loads and each time I read it I scratch my head. What load isn't tight at 10 yards? 15 yards? If someone has trouble consistently killing a turkey from 20-25 yards with any turkey load on the market, then it might be time to try something new. Crocheting or basket weaving, maybe.
Quote from: bigwayne17 on February 18, 2014, 08:44:11 PM
Quote from: Longshanks on February 18, 2014, 07:27:31 PM
Quote from: knightrider on February 18, 2014, 05:55:23 PM
gonna be a bunch of disappointed folks inside of 25 and past 45 im afraid :character0029:
Anyone used to shooting HTL is used to the softball/ volleyball size patterns at close range. The tightest pattern I've shot up close were with nitro and hevi 7's. These long beard patterns don't look much tighter. If folks have never shot tight patterns they might want to spend sometime at the range. Shoot the gun up close and see what you are dealing with..aim small miss small..try to avoid lifting your cheek off the stock and avoid snatching on the trigger.
:z-winnersmiley: X 1 million
I have seen this comment 5 or 6 times concerning these loads and each time I read it I scratch my head. What load isn't tight at 10 yards? 15 yards? If someone has trouble consistently killing a turkey from 20-25 yards with any turkey load on the market, then it might by time to try something new. Crocheting or basket weaving, maybe.
guess you don't know how the general public really is , when they throw the normal lead loads in there guns they throw together night before season it generally isn't that tight of a pattern :fud:
Ive got pictures of those displays from the NWTF. Ill post them up as soon as I can get them uploaded to this computer. I took pictures of the 55 yards penetration test. I had seen where guys had been asking about a penetration test so I snapped a couple pictures of the displays.