Has anyone done any penetration tests of the Winchester XR w/ the various sizes of shot at ranges in excess of 40 yards? In evaluating duck, goose and turkey loads, both commercially manufactured and reloads, I have historically used 1/4" Marine Grade plywood to gauge the penetration. In my experience, at the distance the shot has insufficient kinetic energy to penetrate the 1/4" plywood you have a crippling, rather than, killing load. Holes in paper at long range, don't equate to the penetration required to cleanly kill a turkey. Based on the current hype and advertising, I'm afraid there is going to be a lot of, "I don't know what happened. I knocked him down, but he got up and ran away."
So you're asking if anyone has done testing, but you're saying it won't penetrate. Are you stirring the pot? Or have you done testing?
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Haterz gonna hate
Did you read what he wrote? He didn't say it wouldn't penetrate. He's guessing past 40 yards, people are going to have trouble. And I'd say he's right. 6s lack the energy much past 40, and while the 5s and 4s might have the needed energy, the patterns usually deteriorate rapidly past 40. He explained how he tested waterfowl loads in the past, and asked if anyone had done anything similar with the LBs. He's not stirring the pot, he's asking a legitimate question. But, since no one should be shooting past 40 anyway, and discussions of such are frowned upon here, it's a moot point. I would however like to see tests comparing the hevi 6s and 7s and the LB 4s, 5s, and 6s at 40 yards, just to compare them.
Quote from: Borden811 on February 11, 2014, 02:27:02 PM
Did you read what he wrote? He didn't say it wouldn't penetrate. He's guessing past 40 yards, people are going to have trouble. And I'd say he's right. 6s lack the energy much past 40, and while the 5s and 4s might have the needed energy, the patterns usually deteriorate rapidly past 40. He explained how he tested waterfowl loads in the past, and asked if anyone had done anything similar with the LBs. He's not stirring the pot, he's asking a legitimate question. But, since no one should be shooting past 40 anyway, and discussions of such are frowned upon here, it's a moot point. I would however like to see tests comparing the hevi 6s and 7s and the LB 4s, 5s, and 6s at 40 yards, just to compare them.
That's what I got out of his post also.
Quote from: ericjames on February 11, 2014, 02:40:32 PM
Quote from: Borden811 on February 11, 2014, 02:27:02 PM
Did you read what he wrote? He didn't say it wouldn't penetrate. He's guessing past 40 yards, people are going to have trouble. And I'd say he's right. 6s lack the energy much past 40, and while the 5s and 4s might have the needed energy, the patterns usually deteriorate rapidly past 40. He explained how he tested waterfowl loads in the past, and asked if anyone had done anything similar with the LBs. He's not stirring the pot, he's asking a legitimate question. But, since no one should be shooting past 40 anyway, and discussions of such are frowned upon here, it's a moot point. I would however like to see tests comparing the hevi 6s and 7s and the LB 4s, 5s, and 6s at 40 yards, just to compare them.
That's what I got out of his post also.
Same here. I'd like to see a penetration test...just for fun. :icon_thumright:
Quote from: drum817 on February 11, 2014, 02:56:16 PM
Quote from: ericjames on February 11, 2014, 02:40:32 PM
Quote from: Borden811 on February 11, 2014, 02:27:02 PM
Did you read what he wrote? He didn't say it wouldn't penetrate. He's guessing past 40 yards, people are going to have trouble. And I'd say he's right. 6s lack the energy much past 40, and while the 5s and 4s might have the needed energy, the patterns usually deteriorate rapidly past 40. He explained how he tested waterfowl loads in the past, and asked if anyone had done anything similar with the LBs. He's not stirring the pot, he's asking a legitimate question. But, since no one should be shooting past 40 anyway, and discussions of such are frowned upon here, it's a moot point. I would however like to see tests comparing the hevi 6s and 7s and the LB 4s, 5s, and 6s at 40 yards, just to compare them.
That's what I got out of his post also.
Same here. I'd like to see a penetration test...just for fun. :icon_thumright:
I think some maybe surprised at 40 yards with lead 6s.
I'm seeing quite a few of the LBs barely stuck in the plywood backer of my patterning board. They're the only copper plated shot that's been used on it and they've all been from 40 yds.
Quote from: SCDieselDawg on February 11, 2014, 03:13:05 PM
I'm seeing quite a few of the LBs barely stuck in the plywood backer of my patterning board. They're the only copper plated shot that's been used on it and they've all been from 40 yds.
I wouldn't worry about that....I've seen the same thing with HTL too at 40yards. Is your paterning board 3/4" plywood?
Not sure, it's either 1/2 or 3/4. I found it in the junk pile behind the barn so it's pretty well saturated with rain water to boot.
Lead 4,5,6 is lead 4,5,6 period.................It was killing turkeys for years at 40 yards with people that would put 90 pellets in 10" and be happy. I have personally killed my fair share of turkeys at 40 with lead 6 and also hevi 6 and and i cant tell a difference dead is dead. I have used 5s also. But now at 40 yards we can put about 3 times the shot in there head neck. I think the longbeards will kill better than standard lead due to the more shot per square inch but in the end its still lead.
Shoot some Fed HW's @ that plywood & you will see daylight !! :icon_thumright:
Quote from: scdxt on February 11, 2014, 04:13:45 PM
Lead 4,5,6 is lead 4,5,6 period.................It was killing turkeys for years at 40 yards with people that would put 90 pellets in 10" and be happy. I have personally killed my fair share of turkeys at 40 with lead 6 and also hevi 6 and and i cant tell a difference dead is dead. I have used 5s also. But now at 40 yards we can put about 3 times the shot in there head neck. I think the longbeards will kill better than standard lead due to the more shot per square inch but in the end its still lead.
I agree, Win longbeard is just a more effective lead load inside 40yds. Effective enough that expensive HTL is not needed.. I'm ok with that. Glad Winchester came out with an economical solution to spending 6-10 per shell. People have been thinking they could take long shots at turkey's since HTL came out. Avid turkey hunters know what's ethical and the rest will find out what works and what doesn't work by making their mistakes like everyone has in turkey hunting.
Quote from: Longshanks on February 11, 2014, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: scdxt on February 11, 2014, 04:13:45 PM
Lead 4,5,6 is lead 4,5,6 period.................It was killing turkeys for years at 40 yards with people that would put 90 pellets in 10" and be happy. I have personally killed my fair share of turkeys at 40 with lead 6 and also hevi 6 and and i cant tell a difference dead is dead. I have used 5s also. But now at 40 yards we can put about 3 times the shot in there head neck. I think the longbeards will kill better than standard lead due to the more shot per square inch but in the end its still lead.
I agree, Win longbeard is just a more effective lead load inside 40yds. Effective enough that expensive HTL is not needed.. I'm ok with that :you_rock:
And i agree with you sir
Quote from: Longshanks on February 11, 2014, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: scdxt on February 11, 2014, 04:13:45 PM
Win longbeard is just a more effective lead load inside 40yds. Effective enough that expensive HTL is not needed.. I'm ok with that. Glad Winchester came out with an economical solution to spending 6-10 per shell. People have been thinking they could take long shots at turkey's since HTL came out. Avid turkey hunters know what's ethical and the rest will find out what works and what doesn't work by making their mistakes like everyone has in turkey hunting.
:agreed: That's the same place I'm at with the whole thing....I NEVER shoot past 40...heck, "most" of the time it's under 30!!! I'm just ready to get of the house and GO HUNTING!!! :fud: :OGani:
If the pattern density is there, lead 6's will kill to 40yds every single time. But I agree that lead 6's on a misjudged bird past the 40yd mark starts lacking penetration very quickly. I get better and I mean way better penetration on Hevi-13 #7's than what lead 6's ever thought about getting at 40yds. I don't care what the ft lb charts say either. They lie.
Quote from: Longshanks on February 11, 2014, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: scdxt on February 11, 2014, 04:13:45 PM
Lead 4,5,6 is lead 4,5,6 period.................It was killing turkeys for years at 40 yards with people that would put 90 pellets in 10" and be happy. I have personally killed my fair share of turkeys at 40 with lead 6 and also hevi 6 and and i cant tell a difference dead is dead. I have used 5s also. But now at 40 yards we can put about 3 times the shot in there head neck. I think the longbeards will kill better than standard lead due to the more shot per square inch but in the end its still lead.
I agree, Win longbeard is just a more effective lead load inside 40yds. Effective enough that expensive HTL is not needed.. I'm ok with that. Glad Winchester came out with an economical solution to spending 6-10 per shell. People have been thinking they could take long shots at turkey's since HTL came out. Avid turkey hunters know what's ethical and the rest will find out what works and what doesn't work by making their mistakes like everyone has in turkey hunting.
Couldnt have been said better
Quote from: scdxt on February 11, 2014, 04:13:45 PM
Lead 4,5,6 is lead 4,5,6 period.................It was killing turkeys for years at 40 yards with people that would put 90 pellets in 10" and be happy. I have personally killed my fair share of turkeys at 40 with lead 6 and also hevi 6 and and i cant tell a difference dead is dead. I have used 5s also. But now at 40 yards we can put about 3 times the shot in there head neck. I think the longbeards will kill better than standard lead due to the more shot per square inch but in the end its still lead.
I agree with you. As most of us know a lot of turkeys have fallen to lead shot. It was when you don't point the gun right or misjudge the yardage is when you have problems.
Quote from: WyoHunter on February 12, 2014, 06:09:30 PM
Quote from: scdxt on February 11, 2014, 04:13:45 PM
Lead 4,5,6 is lead 4,5,6 period.................It was killing turkeys for years at 40 yards with people that would put 90 pellets in 10" and be happy. I have personally killed my fair share of turkeys at 40 with lead 6 and also hevi 6 and and i cant tell a difference dead is dead. I have used 5s also. But now at 40 yards we can put about 3 times the shot in there head neck. I think the longbeards will kill better than standard lead due to the more shot per square inch but in the end its still lead.
I agree with you. As most of us know a lot of turkeys have fallen to lead shot. It was when you don't point the gun right or misjudge the yardage is when you have problems.
Agreed! Be prepared for when everything goes wrong, not when the situation is perfect!
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
Lots and lots of turkeys killed at 40 yards with lead , not at 35, not at 41-45. but at 40.
If lead 6's are lacking past 40 it is time to use 5's or 4's with lead shot, don't you think?
many say that past 40 if you misjudge the yardage and lead 6's will be lacking the power you need.
Why use a load you have to make excuses about?
Should we not have a little room for error too?
Or use the heavier than lead stuff, people don't have much to say bad even about the 7's in Hevi 13 or the Heavy weight federal 7's or even the tss 8 or 9 shot in the very small gauges.
Why is that?
I'll probably catch some heat for saying it but I don't understand why anyone would shoot lead these days. I know it will kill turkeys just fine but HTL just ups your odds by letting you shoot smaller shot so why save a couple of bucks per shell when you only shoot a few each season. I've killed just as many turkeys with lead as I have with HTL but man the heavy stuff just slams them to the point that I rarely see one flop after being hit. I like bringing them in close too but I don't see anything wrong with not having to worry about penetration if I do have to take a 40 yard shot.
Quote from: owlhoot on February 12, 2014, 08:28:21 PM
Lots and lots of turkeys killed at 40 yards with lead , not at 35, not at 41-45. but at 40.
If lead 6's are lacking past 40 it is time to use 5's or 4's with lead shot, don't you think?
many say that past 40 if you misjudge the yardage and lead 6's will be lacking the power you need.
Why use a load you have to make excuses about?
Should we not have a little room for error too?
Or use the heavier than lead stuff, people don't have much to say bad even about the 7's in Hevi 13 or the Heavy weight federal 7's or even the tss 8 or 9 shot in the very small gauges.
Why is that?
Well buddy i can first hand tell you that lead 6 has the power to kill if you misjudge.These birds ant made of steel. I agree with the room for error but if people cant judge 40 pretty close then they need to bow hunt a little while it might teach them a thing or two.Or set up on a bird when u first see him top the ridge or hill he is 25-30 yds. I know things happen in the woods cause I am guilty myself of misjudging 45 for 40. But if people cant tell 60 from 40 then they might want to order some hevi 2s lol
Quote from: scdxt on February 12, 2014, 08:51:11 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on February 12, 2014, 08:28:21 PM
Lots and lots of turkeys killed at 40 yards with lead , not at 35, not at 41-45. but at 40.
If lead 6's are lacking past 40 it is time to use 5's or 4's with lead shot, don't you think?
many say that past 40 if you misjudge the yardage and lead 6's will be lacking the power you need.
Why use a load you have to make excuses about?
Should we not have a little room for error too?
Or use the heavier than lead stuff, people don't have much to say bad even about the 7's in Hevi 13 or the Heavy weight federal 7's or even the tss 8 or 9 shot in the very small gauges.
Why is that?
Well buddy i can first hand tell you that lead 6 has the power to kill if you misjudge.These birds ant made of steel. I agree with the room for error but if people cant judge 40 pretty close then they need to bow hunt a little while it might teach them a thing or two.Or set up on a bird when u first see him top the ridge or hill he is 25-30 yds. I know things happen in the woods cause I am guilty myself of misjudging 45 for 40. But if people cant tell 60 from 40 then they might want to order some hevi 2s lol
I have always wanted to try htl 7s myself.I have shot the 6s.
Quote from: Redfish on February 12, 2014, 08:45:11 PM
I'll probably catch some heat for saying it but I don't understand why anyone would shoot lead these days. I know it will kill turkeys just fine but HTL just ups your odds by letting you shoot smaller shot so why save a couple of bucks per shell when you only shoot a few each season. I've killed just as many turkeys with lead as I have with HTL but man the heavy stuff just slams them to the point that I rarely see one flop after being hit. I like bringing them in close too but I don't see anything wrong with not having to worry about penetration if I do have to take a 40 yard shot.
I might catch some heat too,but oh well.I shoot lead,been shooting lead for 30+ years,I have played around some with the HTL shells,but just can't justify the outrageous cost.You say the small shot just slams them,and you don't see anything wrong with penetration,or worry about a 40 yd shot.
The #5 and 4's that I shoot have no problems with penetration out at 40yds or beyond.I have never lost a bird because of shooting old large size lead pellets.I hear and read all about how the HTL 7's just roll them over in a cloud of dust,no they don't near about have the pellet #'s of the 7's,but the birds I have rolled with a 2oz load of 4's never knew what just rocked their world.I mean dead is dead.
I heard they are using a special heavier lead blend in the long beards.
Quote from: Philippe on February 12, 2014, 09:28:12 PM
I heard they are using a special heavier lead blend in the long beards.
I heard that myself. I will text Klemsontigers7 ask if he weighed them today.
Quote from: vaturkey on February 11, 2014, 05:06:25 PM
Shoot some Fed HW's @ that plywood & you will see daylight !! :icon_thumright:
same here.... I always shoot with a plywood backer , and one day I was testing magblends and federal hw #7s , and man that hw7 has knockdown power you can't even understand - it blows right through 1/2 HARDWOOD ply like butta -- the 4,s and 5s in the magblends went straight through also
These longbeards shoot fantastically tight ,I was wondering has anyone weighed or counted the pellets in the new load to see if they are actually size #6 lead pellets ?
I don't know but I'm shooting long beard 5 and 6 this year and opening day I am gonna look like this. LOL
Quote from: surehuntsalot on February 12, 2014, 09:27:02 PM
Quote from: Redfish on February 12, 2014, 08:45:11 PM
I'll probably catch some heat for saying it but I don't understand why anyone would shoot lead these days. I know it will kill turkeys just fine but HTL just ups your odds by letting you shoot smaller shot so why save a couple of bucks per shell when you only shoot a few each season. I've killed just as many turkeys with lead as I have with HTL but man the heavy stuff just slams them to the point that I rarely see one flop after being hit. I like bringing them in close too but I don't see anything wrong with not having to worry about penetration if I do have to take a 40 yard shot.
I might catch some heat too,but oh well.I shoot lead,been shooting lead for 30+ years,I have played around some with the HTL shells,but just can't justify the outrageous cost.You say the small shot just slams them,and you don't see anything wrong with penetration,or worry about a 40 yd shot.
The #5 and 4's that I shoot have no problems with penetration out at 40yds or beyond.I have never lost a bird because of shooting old large size lead pellets.I hear and read all about how the HTL 7's just roll them over in a cloud of dust,no they don't near about have the pellet #'s of the 7's,but the birds I have rolled with a 2oz load of 4's never knew what just rocked their world.I mean dead is dead.
I definitely see your point. I actually shoot MagBlends 5-6-7s as I like having some bigger shot in the pattern too. I used to shoot lead 5's and they definitely do the job. For me the cost difference just doesn't figure. In Florida we are only allowed two birds. Last year I used two shells. Considering it costs me $30 in gas to get to my lease and back home, not to mention the hundreds I spend on leasing land and buying junk I don't really need from Cabelas, spending three dollars more a shell is not a deal breaker. I'm just thankful that with the exception of California we live in a country where we can shoot whatever load we like.
Quote from: Philippe on February 12, 2014, 09:28:12 PM
I heard they are using a special heavier lead blend in the long beards.
Given Winch's penchant for marketing hyperbole, I bet we would have seen it in print by now if they were.
What are you thinking, maybe a little spent Uranium mixed in?
Hey my nabor has some yard turkeys if y'all want me to test those 6's out to 50,60 and 70 :funnyturkey:
Quote from: Redfish on February 12, 2014, 08:45:11 PM
I'll probably catch some heat for saying it but I don't understand why anyone would shoot lead these days. I know it will kill turkeys just fine but HTL just ups your odds by letting you shoot smaller shot so why save a couple of bucks per shell when you only shoot a few each season. I've killed just as many turkeys with lead as I have with HTL but man the heavy stuff just slams them to the point that I rarely see one flop after being hit. I like bringing them in close too but I don't see anything wrong with not having to worry about penetration if I do have to take a 40 yard shot.
I don't understand when people say "Hevi hits harder". Yes, a number 6 Hevi hits harder than a number 6 lead at the same velocity. But you do realize that you have less pellets in a number 6 Hevi vs a number 6 lead of the same weight of shot, right? Hevi are more dense, meaning less pellets. Number 5 lead is similar in weight to Hevi 6, so why not just shoot number 5 lead? Hevi 6 are slow... 1090 is slow..... Hope I didn't confuse you! (I think most Hevi shooters don't get it)
Quote from: scdxt on February 12, 2014, 09:43:06 PM
I don't know but I'm shooting long beard 5 and 6 this year and opening day I am gonna look like this. LOL
:TooFunny: :TooFunny:
Ya well , when i watch my kid shoot Hevi 6's out of a 20 at 35 yards and break the wing joint with them and shot found in the keel bone after cleaning the bird, this is multiple times. and I have been shooting a 3 1/2 super cannon with lead for years without doing that. When you shoot galvanized barn metal and compare 20 gauge 6 right threw and 3 1/2 super cannon 6 lead makes a dent. When you watch your buddy shoot his plywood backed target and see wood blow out the back with hevi and not his lead doing the same. Am not paying extra because it says hevi.
Ya i still shoot lead too. bbbbbbbbbbbbut realize the difference.
Now if we could see a longbeard penetration test soon.
Moo
Quote from: klemsontigers7 on February 12, 2014, 10:16:21 PM
Quote from: Redfish on February 12, 2014, 08:45:11 PM
I'll probably catch some heat for saying it but I don't understand why anyone would shoot lead these days. I know it will kill turkeys just fine but HTL just ups your odds by letting you shoot smaller shot so why save a couple of bucks per shell when you only shoot a few each season. I've killed just as many turkeys with lead as I have with HTL but man the heavy stuff just slams them to the point that I rarely see one flop after being hit. I like bringing them in close too but I don't see anything wrong with not having to worry about penetration if I do have to take a 40 yard shot.
I don't understand when people say "Hevi hits harder". Yes, a number 6 Hevi hits harder than a number 6 lead at the same velocity. But you do realize that you have less pellets in a number 6 Hevi vs a number 6 lead of the same weight of shot, right? Hevi are more dense, meaning less pellets. Number 5 lead is similar in weight to Hevi 6, so why not just shoot number 5 lead? Hevi 6 are slow... 1090 is slow..... Hope I didn't confuse you! (I think most Hevi shooters don't get it)
For someone that does not have enough time on here to have any kind of positive reputation on here you sure seem to think your opinions are fact. The difference in lead 6 and hevi 6 is the hevi is denser. Therefore using physics, something heavier/denser will carry more energy and translate that energy when hitting an object. Hevi-Shot #6s carry the energy of lead 4s when they hit at their 12 g/cc. Federal HW s are 15 g/cc making them hit harder and TSS is 18 g/cc. Hopefully you can understand that the larger the number the harder they hit and that is why one can use smaller shot when using a denser shot.
With Hevi traveling at 1090 and your precious long beards traveling at 1200 the same shot size in the denser shot will hit harder.
If you want to shoot lead then more power to you. Shoot what you want as long as it is legal where you are hunting.
Seems like every thread you and your buddies are in turn hostile because of y'all knowing it all. I promise you that many of these guys forgot more about hunting turkeys than you or me will know. Nobody likes a jackass.
Sit back and enjoy conversation here. Good luck and have a good season.
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
Please keep it civil or this thread gets shutdown
:popcorn:
:popcorn:
Quote from: davisd9 on February 12, 2014, 10:38:02 PM
MooQuote from: klemsontigers7 on February 12, 2014, 10:16:21 PM
Quote from: Redfish on February 12, 2014, 08:45:11 PM
I'll probably catch some heat for saying it but I don't understand why anyone would shoot lead these days. I know it will kill turkeys just fine but HTL just ups your odds by letting you shoot smaller shot so why save a couple of bucks per shell when you only shoot a few each season. I've killed just as many turkeys with lead as I have with HTL but man the heavy stuff just slams them to the point that I rarely see one flop after being hit. I like bringing them in close too but I don't see anything wrong with not having to worry about penetration if I do have to take a 40 yard shot.
I don't understand when people say "Hevi hits harder". Yes, a number 6 Hevi hits harder than a number 6 lead at the same velocity. But you do realize that you have less pellets in a number 6 Hevi vs a number 6 lead of the same weight of shot, right? Hevi are more dense, meaning less pellets. Number 5 lead is similar in weight to Hevi 6, so why not just shoot number 5 lead? Hevi 6 are slow... 1090 is slow..... Hope I didn't confuse you! (I think most Hevi shooters don't get it)
For someone that does not have enough time on here to have any kind of positive reputation on here you sure seem to think your opinions are fact. The difference in lead 6 and hevi 6 is the hevi is denser. Therefore using physics, something heavier/denser will carry more energy and translate that energy when hitting an object. Hevi-Shot #6s carry the energy of lead 4s when they hit at their 12 g/cc. Federal HW s are 15 g/cc making them hit harder and TSS is 18 g/cc. Hopefully you can understand that the larger the number the harder they hit and that is why one can use smaller shot when using a denser shot.
With Hevi traveling at 1090 and your precious long beards traveling at 1200 the same shot size in the denser shot will hit harder.
If you want to shoot lead then more power to you. Shoot what you want as long as it is legal where you are hunting.
Seems like every thread you and your buddies are in turn hostile because of y'all knowing it all. I promise you that many of these guys forgot more about hunting turkeys than you or me will know. Nobody likes a jackass.
Sit back and enjoy conversation here. Good luck and have a good season.
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
You obviously didn't read my post. With bachelors and masters degrees in engineering I think I know a little about different metals. What advantage does a smaller Hevi size bring over a larger lead?
Its the off season now ,its cold outside and there ain't much to do ...cabin fever season some call it , and sometimes people start fussin over things , when you look back at these things, you realize they are not that important to getting upset about or getting someone else angry over - were asking that people refrain from antagonizing posts and or antagonistic personal messages in the future
Thanks in advance -- Shannon