1125 fps instead of 1200? OG commented on other post. But not sure.
Doesn't that load with 6's run out of juice at 40 according to penetration and ft lbs. tests?
Didn't the 1300 fps lead loads of a few years back seem to kill better that the slower loads at that time?
My group thought so.
If indeed they did 1300.
maybe nothing , but i like the higher velocity loads and will buy accordingly.
Box says 1200 fps. Plenty of penetration at 40 to kill a turkey.
I like the winchester high velocity loads as much as anyone but in my opinion the extra velocity doesn't make that big a difference. I watched my buddy wax a bird a 45 yards with the standard xx 3.5in #6's. Counted several holes on the opposite side of the birds head from which he shot it meaning they exited. Not to mention I've killed my share of birds back in the day with the old federal 3 in 2oz #6's. If your talking 40 yds and in, I don't think it really matters. And considering I'm talking #6's here, it should be even less of a factor with #5's. I shoot the hv winchester loads these days but mainly because my gun patterns them better. Just my opinion.
OutdoorLife's February 2014 issue did some field testing/reveiws of 3" 4s, 5s and 6s of the new Longbeard loads (Mossberg 835 THUG 18" barrel XX full choke)
No. 6 shot at 70 yards showed 1.75" penetration in ballistic gel.
I'm not saying its true , just repeating what I have heard from anonymous sources - you have to take into consideration it is a widely held fact that some ammo companies test their ammo in 30 inch barrels to achieve those higher velocities , many companies do this it's a common practice , - if someone has a chrono and they have the time , have at it
I can probably buy a box of the longboard ammo and cleanly kill a gobbler at 40 yards no problem , that's not the issue ..... The issue is making ridiculous claims and misleading the general public into thinking they can kill gobblers at 66 yards - oh I'm sure someone will pop up here come April time and claim this stuff got them a gobbler at a distance " they mistakenly took but after pacing it off they were amazed to realize they shot it at "X" yards " - let me ask you how many people will proudly make a " longest miss" thread , I've had this forum for 7 spring seasons now , and have yet to see someone make a longest miss thread
- there is all kinds of hype popping up about it , people are posting up patterns that they feel are incredible , I've seen a few #6 patterns that shoot good , but nothing yet to write home to mom about
As your shot string exits your barrel it will start to decelerate , the heavier the projectile the more KE it will have, but as distance adds to the shot the slower and slower it will travel ,you would be surprised to know that a # 4 "lead" pellet with a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps will be traveling at around 650 fps at 40 yards that's if it's actually departing the barrel at 1200 fps - if it's a smaller /lighter projectile it will travel slower - basic physics - that's why turkey hunters rave about htl ammo like hevishot and the like
what we are seeing in 2014 , is that people have become accustomed to htl ammo and the fantastic performance of it , and now that it is financially unviable for many companies to produce it with a profit margin , it looks like ammo companies have found it more financially viable to spend money on celebrities , and pricey marketing than actually invest it into the product , believe it or not if you make a fantastic product these days that product will sell itself !!! Who needs to hire a Billy Mays when your stuff is good already
Nothing wrong with the ammo , there is something wrong with the marketing campaign , what's next ? Next year or the year after another rival ammo company goes out and hires Tiffany Lakowski to push repackaged mediocre ammo , and claim they bopped a gobbler at 76 yards ? When does all this marketing stop
Another statement out there is that the 1 3/4 ounces of shot is not 1 3/4 oz of shot but also includes the weight of the resin column. 2 oz the same. This would be an easy weigh and count exercise for someone.
Yes i believe the patterns i have seen with 4's are good. But don't seem to be any better than loads shot 15 years or so . I have seen quite a few 125 to 140 patterns with Fed. grand slams, 3 1/2" 4's with 835 and 935 stardots. X2 win with stardot did 130-140 with same load. 1300 fps loads that patterned and killed well. Never polished no barrels or cleaned that deep then. don't remember any 65 yard claims then.
Do appreciate Winchester R&D for their new innovation. :icon_thumright:
marketing dept. needs a swift kick in the pants, they fell and bumped their heads :z-dizzy:
if someone gets Tiffany on the box of shells, they can load them with pretty colored air soft pellets and i will get a box anyway. :drool:
I can honestly say that I have tried almost every choke and lead shot combo through the guns that I have and nothing, pattern wise, has compared to the Win. LB XRs. Winchester has came out with a load that everyone can afford and now people want to starting talking bad about it. I do not understand. I am in no means agreeing with their marketing schemes, even though I haven't seen any of them, but I am glad that they came up with an alternative to the ridiculously priced "heavier than lead" loads. I say cheers to Winchester, and thanks for a turkey shell that will not break the bank.
Quote from: Punisher on January 19, 2014, 01:41:04 AM
I can honestly say that I have tried almost every choke and lead shot combo through the guns that I have and nothing, pattern wise, has compared to the Win. LB XRs. Winchester has came out with a load that everyone can afford and now people want to starting talking bad about it. I do not understand. I am in no means agreeing with their marketing schemes, even though I haven't seen any of them, but I am glad that they came up with an alternative to the ridiculously priced "heavier than lead" loads. I say cheers to Winchester, and thanks for a turkey shell that will not break the bank.
Whoa here. I do not consider that my post is talking bad about the shell as such and neither does Old Gobblers from what I read ; it is more in the advertising claims that give concern. This shell has very good use at longer distances such as 35-45 yards perhaps but nobody should be talking #6 lead at 65-70 yards regardless. Also if the pellet count is low per ounce stated then that should be known to the user. I believe Win has tried to oversell the attributes of this new shell since it got out of the HTL realm. They will get a lot of business based on the merits of the shell alone and word of mouth without making such claims that could draw some hunters to perhaps wounding game and taking what I consider pot shots at long distances. This shell may even be too tight at the old normal 25-30 yard and under shots as well. It does appear to be the tightest lead load ever for commercial loads and I applaud Winchester for providing alternative shells to the consumer at a more affordable price. If my comments seem offensive to you then I apologize.
I agree Mr. Robert.. I don't plan on shooting them anyway. Most all my shots are under 25 yards, with a majority of those 10-15.. So they will probably be a little tighter than I like. But only time will tell, I haven't saw any 20 yard patterns yet..
I have a good supply of Winchester's "Supreme" 12 ga. 3 1/2" HV 2 oz. #6 to last quite a while. I also have a supply of the same load and shot size in 10 Ga. I'll be using these loads until I run out.
First thing. Not saying this is a bad shell.
In fact the patterns are amazing with 6's, 200-250 already posted. With 4 shot near 140's already with not much trouble.
It is a new shell and concept. Subject to evaluation.
If the velocity is lower than 1200 or the weight of load is less than advertised than some might like to know that. These things matter to some.
As others use the patterns to judge a good load, lead or htl. All are important to me . Just my opinion.
Heck i have 60 bucks in 3 boxes of these sitting in front of me.
I too would like to apologize if that posted seems offensive.
thanks to those who have patterned and posted result already.
I too am sorry if my post offended anyone in any way. That was not my intent. I probably took the other previous posts wrong. As far as the claims being made to advertise these shells I am hearing about, I agree, those kind of shots should not be encouraged. Once again, sorry if I offended anyone.
FROM WHAT I HAVE READ ELSE WHERE , THIS LOOKS LIKE WINCHESTER IS EXTENDING THE RANGE , AND STILL HAVE A VERY GOOD AND A RESPECTABLE KILL SHOT AT THAT RANGE ......
Again , nothing wrong with the shell , it's fantastic stuff - all the ruffled feathers we are seeing is the exaggerated marketing
I hope Winchester/Olin scales back on the flashy claims - there has been some low brow and suggestive adds in the past from other companies , but this ...... has to be without a doubt the most controversial add campaign for turkey ammunition EVER - the other ammo companies may follow suit , with all the money being thrown into TV shows and commercials it could stand a good chance of having a detrimental effect on turkeys , via crippling etc....
Many turkey hunters feel the same way , and have strong reservations with the marketing
Quote from: Old Gobbler on January 19, 2014, 08:47:28 PM
...but this ...... has to be without a doubt the most controversial add campaign for turkey ammunition EVER - the other ammo companies may follow suit , with all the money being thrown into TV shows and commercials it could stand a good chance of having a detrimental effect on turkeys , via crippling etc....Many turkey hunters feel the same way , and have strong reservations with the marketing
:agreed:
Really surprised at the claims being made on the Winchester ammo web site, under the "performance" tab for this load, where they display a 70 yard pattern target. Though they have a disclaimer, to the effect of "...the decision for maximum range is the hunter's decision..." posting a 70 yard pattern certainly could lead one to believe that this
lead load was designed to deliver at 70 yards. Very irresponsible marketing in my opinion.
Hope that winchester does well with these new shells and that whoever decides to use them will have great success; as for me, I will stick with what has worked for me for many years; Remington 2 3/4 inch magnum number 5's.
Got to take barrel length into consideration as well longer barrels will yield a higher velocity and I would think that Winchester would use a longer barrel to test their speeds.
Quote from: paboxcall on January 19, 2014, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: Old Gobbler on January 19, 2014, 08:47:28 PM
...but this ...... has to be without a doubt the most controversial add campaign for turkey ammunition EVER - the other ammo companies may follow suit , with all the money being thrown into TV shows and commercials it could stand a good chance of having a detrimental effect on turkeys , via crippling etc....Many turkey hunters feel the same way , and have strong reservations with the marketing
:agreed:
Really surprised at the claims being made on the Winchester ammo web site, under the "performance" tab for this load, where they display a 70 yard pattern target. Though they have a disclaimer, to the effect of "...the decision for maximum range is the hunter's decision..." posting a 70 yard pattern certainly could lead one to believe that this lead load was designed to deliver at 70 yards. Very irresponsible marketing in my opinion.
It's all marketing to make us part with our cash! As I posted in another thread, 40 yards is where I try to limit my shots, whether I have my 835 with Winchester XXs or my 870 with nevi 6s.
It seems like a great load and if it helps someone kill a turkey at a responsible distance, I'm all for it! I think the above two posts really make a good point, but it's not all Winchester! Take a look at this Mag Blend Commercial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZu_Iu54HBw
Now, if you pay attention toward the middle of the commercial it makes it seem like you can kill turkeys out to 75 yard! Hevi or not, that's a bit extreme!
Quote from: jblackburn on January 21, 2014, 12:50:16 PM
...it makes it seem like you can kill turkeys out to 75 yard! Hevi or not, that's a bit extreme!
I agree 100%. I shoot HTL, 40 yards is my maximum too, and my set up preference is to have a bird show up on the scene between 20-30 yards. Nice to know through patterning my gun/choke/shell combo that the HTL will deliver a still-cooking, devastating pattern at 40 yards, which is why I shoot it instead of lead. Just my personal choice. When I eventually burn through my stash of straight 7s, I might look to a lead load similar to this one. Or not... :z-guntootsmiley:
Quote from: Gooserbat on January 21, 2014, 10:46:48 AM
Got to take barrel length into consideration as well longer barrels will yield a higher velocity and I would think that Winchester would use a longer barrel to test their speeds.
30" barrel at 3' from the muzzle at 68 degrees at an altitude of 495'. I'm not sure about the humidity level, probably 50% but it should be constant in the tunnel.
Thanks,
Clark
I'll put my two cents worth in. Unless your a navy seal trained person, don't try beyond the forty yard guess mark. I'am waiting for the lady to call and tell me that my new 11-87 20 gauge just came through the door! The twelve got to heavy just like the ten did. Why don't we go back to old school and learn to call and sit a little longer and wait? Last year I let a fifty yarder walk away. On the last week I missed a big gobbler at ten short yards when I would not wait that last five minutes after we hammered each other for almost an hour. I would never even dream of shooting at one at seventy yards nor let my sons or grandsons do it. I do like the idea of it being much easery to find a good choke and shell that throws a good pattern these days. Next thing you know we'll be talking cross currents and elevaton clicks, tempature and who knows what else. maybe mega hertz. Maybe we just need to make better choices even when turkey huntin. Go have fun and hoot and holler when you get'em. Hope I didn't make anybody mad. cluck
Quote from: cluck on January 25, 2014, 05:12:46 PM
I'll put my two cents worth in. Unless your a navy seal trained person, don't try beyond the forty yard guess mark. I'am waiting for the lady to call and tell me that my new 11-87 20 gauge just came through the door! The twelve got to heavy just like the ten did. Why don't we go back to old school and learn to call and sit a little longer and wait? Last year I let a fifty yarder walk away. On the last week I missed a big gobbler at ten short yards when I would not wait that last five minutes after we hammered each other for almost an hour. I would never even dream of shooting at one at seventy yards nor let my sons or grandsons do it. I do like the idea of it being much easery to find a good choke and shell that throws a good pattern these days. Next thing you know we'll be talking cross currents and elevaton clicks, tempature and who knows what else. maybe mega hertz. Maybe we just need to make better choices even when turkey huntin. Go have fun and hoot and holler when you get'em. Hope I didn't make anybody mad. cluck
Very well said.
Thanks,
Clark
I've killed birds from 20 feet to forty yards, and I have no interest in shooting more than forty yards. What I am interested in is more shot on target, and less flyers to damage meat. I'm hoping that this new buffering system accomplishes that. I've picked up a couple of boxes Longbeard #5's, and intend to run them and the Federals I've been shooting through a few different chokes to see how they compare. I'm also thinking of picking up a Trulock tube, and emailed them to ask about their tests with the new shells. I'm shooting an 11-87 3", anybody on here with any experience with this combo yet?
I figure people who are going to take shots at 60yds have been doing it way before the longbeards came out and they just think this shell will better the odds and it will, but it's still not a good idea. Yeah they will kill some of them at 60 but it would be jus as easy to wound them. Bottom line people who take long shots will always take Long shot no matter what shell is in the gun.
I just patterned my SX3 .665 choke 40 yards with winchester long beards #5 shot. the pattern was so tight that I could miss a turkey at 40 yards, I believe they could kill a bird a lot farther. I will not use long beards because 40 yards is enough for me. I am going to use winchester supreme HV #5 shot. They have a little larger pattern than LB. If birds do get in close on me at least I'll have a better chance there also.
Quote from: d.winsor on March 12, 2014, 10:16:14 PM
I just patterned my SX3 .665 choke 40 yards with winchester long beards #5 shot. the pattern was so tight that I could miss a turkey at 40 yards, I believe they could kill a bird a lot farther. I will not use long beards because 40 yards is enough for me. I am going to use winchester supreme HV #5 shot. They have a little larger pattern than LB. If birds do get in close on me at least I'll have a better chance there also.
I'm with you on the tight patterns. Not going to find many people to agree with you this year; the train is warmed up and leaving the station. But I think you will see some folks rethink their love affair for LBs after this season. There will be a lot of turkeys missed at 20-30 yds this year with these shells, particularly with folks that are not using optics of some sort. For my money, inside 40 yds, the Turkey Thugs or any of the other Winch shells throw a more forgiving pattern that is still solid at 40 yds.
Based on what Im seeing, these shells don't don't pattern any tighter then any other lead shell at 10, 15, 20, 30 yards. They just hold their pattern better, and are tighter at 40. Tighter at 40 doesn't necessarliy equate to tighter at close range. Shoot a few at close range compared to your normal shell at the same range. I bet you'll be surprised how little difference there is.
Pattern my guns to have an effective pattern at 40. Regardless of the shell HTL, Lead. I don't change the way I hunt. 40 and under is most productive regardless of gun/shell/combo.
Killing results is what we're after. If the shell kills to your wishes, then so be it.
An 870SM I shot recently will place all pellets (save 10-15) from the 3.5" #5 LB shell in a 12" circle at 40 yards. Not bad.
Consistent results and dead birds ... that's what we want :funnyturkey:!
I'm not advocating this but here's an article from outdoor life
Earlier this summer a buddy and I patterned the load from 10 yards to 70 yards in 10-yard increments. We shot 3-inch No. 6s and No. 4s through a Mossberg 835 Turkey THUG with an 18-inch barrel and an XX-full choke. Both shot sizes did extremely well from 30 yards to 50 yards. Past the 50-yard mark, the 6s pulled away, outperforming the 4s and absolutely whooping the standard Winchester Double X high velocity rounds we shot as a control group. With No. 6 shot at 70 yards, we were able to sink about a dozen pellets in our gobbler target's head and neck (see some of our patterning photos below), and we saw 1 ¾-inch penetration in our ballistics gel test.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2013/09/winchester-longbeard-xr-new-turkey-load-designed-longer-ranges
I'm shooting these shells this year and like most others 40 yards is a long shot for me. I'd much rather 20-25 yards under ideal conditions.
I might add I posted this to verify another users post where he said he read of 1.75in penetration at 70 yards. "This be where he got it" as my old neighbor would say
Shot a 3-1.75-5 Longbeard today through a 26" barrelled SBE across my Pro Chrony and got 1337 fps. I don't think they calibrated their BG at Outdoor Life. That's about .75" more penetration than would be expected.
I'm sure winchester is probably a contributor to their magazine and that's fine. I don't think 60-70 yards are acceptable turkey shots but I do love the pattern these shells throw
There aint a snowballs chance in hell that a #6 lead can get the penetration they are claiming at 70yds. Absolutely no way physically possible.
Well, maybe if you start it at 1700pfs or so :TooFunny:
Quote from: highwaygun on March 15, 2014, 11:02:45 AM
There aint a snowballs chance in hell that a #6 lead can get the penetration they are claiming at 70yds. Absolutely no way physically possible.
+100
they must be smoking something