Are the smaller makers on here (and not selling on here) doing a smaller, less expensive sideshow at a motel, church fellowship hall, Mason's Lodge, VFW Lodge, Moose Lodge, etc. concurrent with the big show at Opryland?
I believe that I will go up this coming year and will try to come see yuns if you have a place to exhibit.
I would think that the NWTF knew about it they would try to shut it down. That would be very disrespectful to the NWTF and the call builders that pay the price to get a table and sell at the Convention. There are a lot of guys that walk around the show or in their rooms selling their calls without buying a table, and most of the call builders don't care for that either.
Quote from: WillowRidgeCalls on December 16, 2012, 05:58:49 PM
I would think that the NWTF knew about it they would try to shut it down. That would be very disrespectful to the NWTF and the call builders that pay the price to get a table and sell at the Convention. There are a lot of guys that walk around the show or in their rooms selling their calls without buying a table, and most of the call builders don't care for that either.
I agree. I've only had a booth one time at nationals. After having turned a couple hundred calls and paying around $1,000 for a table, driving nearly 10 hours and having to get up early each morning to go sit at a table for 12 hours... I would also consider it disrespectful to those who put so much into having a booth. I work a full time job and a part time job and only make calls in my "spare" time. I definitely consider myself a smaller scale callmaker.
I understand callmakers delivering calls previously ordered at nationals, but taking stock to sell is another issue. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.
I'd agree about questioning judgment and taste of makers that were selling at the NWTF exhibition hall with no table. Those that buy a booth can rightfully/should be upset with the NWTF's failure to marshal that.
However, the NWTF show cannot provide space for every maker, and what they do provide is not accessible to every maker due to price. The show is incapable of meeting the needs of all consumers because it cannot provide an interface with every maker he might want to meet and calls he may want to run. I doubt that every callmaker is a member of NWTF, and every turkey hunter is not a member. I don't know the vendor policy, but one must belong or pay, but either way, he pays to get in. A small show opens up access to prospective consumers without payment to attend.
Moreover, this country's free enterprise system is based on competition. If NWTF or someone else does not provide what some need or provide it well enough or at the right price, there is nothing unethical or immoral about competing with it in the same town, at the same time, at a different location. Competition makes market participants better or puts them out of the market. The makers here an on other forums are competing by putting their products up against those of others in the classifieds. Those that put their wares in stores or at Midwest Turkey Calls are competing side by side for consumer dollars. The vendors at the NWTF show are competing against one another within the hall for consumer dollars.
Quote from: Turkey Trot on December 19, 2012, 05:25:13 PM
If NWTF or someone else does not provide what some need or provide it well enough or at the right price, there is nothing unethical or immoral about competing with it in the same town, at the same time, at a different location. Competition makes market participants better or puts them out of the market. The makers here an on other forums are competing by putting their products up against those of others in the classifieds. Those that put their wares in stores or at Midwest Turkey Calls are competing side by side for consumer dollars. The vendors at the NWTF show are competing against one another within the hall for consumer dollars.
I'm really not trying to get into a peeing match with you, so please don't take it that way. I am not a member of the NWTF, so please understand I am not being a "fanboy". However, I recognize that the NWTF puts out the money to rent the facilities at the Opryland Hotel, which I am sure is a sizable figure. They DO make space available for vendors on a first come first serve basis. Since they rent the space and they organize the event, they set the price for booth space. It's really a fairly simple principle... if you can't afford a booth, you don't get to set up and sell at the event. I bit the bullet and reserved a booth one year. I didn't find the financial return worth the investment to make it worth the effort to do it again.
I won't pretend to know if there are any legal ramifications of having a competing event in the same town at the same time, but question the "good sense" aspect of doing so. In principle, I would find it disrespectful (regardless of how I feel personally about the NWTF) to organize a competing event as proposed. To me, it would be like riding on the coat-tails of a well-known, well-promoted, well-publicized event. I also suspect that there might be signficnant fallout for participating vendors of such a competing event. By that, I mean a sort of "black-listing" of callmakers participating in a competing event. Regardless of how one feels about the NWTF, their history, their practices, etc... they carry a lot of influence among hunters, callmakers and sportsmen in general. There are a number of forums that these people post on or are members of. Many of these other forums do not have quite the family-oriented feel as OG, interpret that as you will. As a callmaker that does not have an advertising budget, most of my advertising is "word-of-mouth". It wouldn't be worth the risk for me to participate in a separate event in the same town at the same time as the NWTF nationals. I have spent just over 8 years developing a reputation as a reputable callmaker and would not be willing to risk that reputation being flushed by basically trying to draw some of the dollars away from such an event as nationals.
This post is COMPLETELY my own opinion, and may not reflect the thinking of anyone else who posts here. I just know I want my reputation to be that of a callmaker that not only makes a great call and has great customer service, but also one that respects other callmakers and organizations. Having spent the money to have a booth at nationals, I would not have thought highly of others trying to capitalize on the crowd drawn by nationals, but not willing to pay the price to be a part of it. Again, I have no plans to get a booth at nationals in the future, but also wouldn't travel to Nashville to attend a competing event at the same time.
Can we agree to disagree?
Does anybody know what the cost of a booth is? I was told that it was going to change this year to be way more expensive. If so it might have eliminated the smaller call companies from affording a booth.
TRKYHTR
1200.00 plus room plus food plus gas around 2000,00
With those cost you are strikeing out before you get to swing, at a average cost of $50.00 per call you will have to sell 100 calls to to make any profit with your other expences. don't do it.
I can honestly say that the best part of having a booth at Nationals for me a few years ago was the people I met. I met numerous folks from Old Gobbler, customers who had bought from me over the years and some fellow callmakers.
As I mentioned, the financial return did not make it worth going back, all things considered. Directly across the aisle from me was a well known callmaker that had 3 booths, including a corner. His "prostaffers" literally stood in the middle of the aisle running calls at full volume. After 2 1/2 days of that, I had enough. I just don't get that kind of mentality. You rent the booth space, not the aisles...
As a callmaker, a complaint often voiced about the NWTF has been that they don't seem to care much about the custom callmakers. They will gladly accept donations of calls for their auctions and contests, but they price booth space in a way that keeps many individual callmakers from being able to show and sell their products. It stinks, but that's the way it is. I would caution callmakers to be careful what they say and do as it relates to the NWTF. There are passionate people on both sides of any argument/issue you might have with them. Your words and actions don't go un-noticed.
I see a catch 22 here, don't let the small custom call maker set up a outside display/sale of his calls, but they welcome the beautiful works of art made by the custom call maker to draw folks in to buy the production cr*p. whoops guess i'm not going to place in the contest this year.
Gary
The big space entry fee Takes the fun out of it for us guys that do it for fun. Personally it's your decision to pay the space fee not anyone else's so why bash others that want to hold a show somewhere else. I was surprised at some of the responses to this post. I see no problem with it. It has nothing to do with disrespecting the nwtf, just hunters/call makers that want to show off Their work and MAKE SOME EXTRA CASH NOT GIVE IT AWAY.
Quote from: BigGobbler on December 21, 2012, 02:27:48 PM
The big space entry fee Takes the fun out of it for us guys that do it for fun. Personally it's your decision to pay the space fee not anyone else's so why bash others that want to hold a show somewhere else. I was surprised at some of the responses to this post. I see no problem with it. It has nothing to do with disrespecting the nwtf, just hunters/call makers that want to show off Their work and MAKE SOME EXTRA CASH NOT GIVE IT AWAY.
I read back through all of the posts and missed where anyone was bashing anyone... Maybe you could clarify with specifics, maybe quotes of statements that offended you?
You state that "It has nothing to do with disrespecting the nwtf..." . I won't go into my personal thoughts on the organization, but would like for you to think about something:
Why would a person or group of people organize an event focussed on turkey hunters in the same town and on the same dates as the largest yearly event of the NWTF, an organization specifically focused on that same group of people?
Maybe I am completely off in my perception, but it seems the only reason to hold such an event at the same time, in the same town and focused on the same group of attendees would be to draw those same people away from the biggest yearly event that the NWTF has organized - in order to gain personal financial benefit. Regardless of my personal opinion of the NWTF, I recognize that the ONLY reason many of the thousands of the attendees are in Nashville that weekend is because the NWTF has invested tons of money in promoting that event over the years and has built it into "THE" event for its paid members to attend.
I can only speak for my own posts. My intent was never to "bash" anyone. My intent was to express how organizing a competing event might come across to not only the NWTF, but also to those vendors, large or small, who paid the fees to exhibit their goods in the official exhibition hall. Remember, these folks paid good money to show their products. Part of those fees cover advertising costs for the event... in other words, each vendor paid to help draw the crowd that someone else is trying to capitalize on.
My intent is not to judge anyone else, nor to sound threatening. I simply hope to present how an attempt to organize such a proposed competing event may be viewed. I would hate to see someone "blacklisted", so to speak, simply because they were trying to make a few bucks and make their calls more visible to more people. Take it for what you will...
If that comes across as "bashing", just dismiss it as the ramblings of a tired, middle aged man under the influence of sawdust and lacquer fumes. ;)
I really wish each one nothing but the best.
What the call makers need to do is get together and start their own shows. Whats been said above is not trying to bash anyone, but more trying to stop anyone from bashing what the nwtf has spent years trying to do. They have spent thousands of dollers to make that event what it is today, and yes it does take a lot of cash to do an event that way, so the price they get for a booth is costly. It has nothing to do with the nwtf not caring about the small guy, it only has to do with the cost of putting on an event like that. It would be great if they had an area for guys to have a one day table to put your calls out in the eyes of everyone that comes to the show, but that would be a nightmare trying to get it set up that way, while trying to run a big show smoothly.
If the call builders in a state would unite and start shows that every call builder could attent for a small fee and get their calls out in the publics eye would be great. Yes they would be a small show for a while until they start getting enough attendence and advertizing out there to draw more people. There isn't anything stopping a small builder from going to the event, other than the cost and time spent for a table, but to put a show on trying to draw people away from the nwtf's event to fill their own pockets with cash is very disrespectful to the nwtf and as far as that goes to every call builder out there, because all they only care about is trying to fill their own pockets with cash because there is a large gathering of turkey people in that town.
Take it for what it's worth, just my feelings.
If the small guys are serious to compete then band together and purchase a booth with a group of like minded custom makers. This would be cheaper then competing at a different venue with all the pluses that NWTF brings to the table.
There is a group of us that have been talking about splitting a booth at the deer expo in town this summer. 5 of us at 100-150 ea or so
It's done everyday with all shows everywhere.just because its the NWTF that's doing a show means no different. As far as being disrespectful and making money off their hard work,that's a bunch of crap.Look again at who is pocketing all the money LOL
As a call maker I pay to play. I've never went to Nationals simply because of the cost. I do however attend 3 or 4 state/regional expos and the tabels usualy run $400-$550 per show. Simple math is you need to triple the cost of the table to make it worth while.
I have to throw I my 2 cents...... number one...I would love to set up one day at the Nationals but till I can justify the expense that day will nee'r be close for me. Number two....should call makers not sitting in a booth inside the Convention Center sell their wares under the same roof, I would not.....Why? Because I do respect the call makers "CUSTOM CALL MAKERS" who spent their hard earned dollars and time creating their calls and respect their investing those same dollars in order to be seen and heard by numerous people at a function of this magnitude. Would I feel like I am black marketing my calls if I sold out side the building? Of course not, I sell my calls where ever I get the chance, but as far as setting up a "private" booth somewhere within the confines of the Gaylord while the NWTF is promoting our craft and beloved sport....nope not me. Now don't get me wrong, I do get aggravated when I see companies that sell millions in calls that are made in China and Thailand promoting their wares in the same building as the custom call makers......taking up to ten spaces at 1200.00 a space ..... then taking everything off as business expenses during tax time....while the lowly single call maker has to scrape the ground for every dime just to make head way in their expenses....who profits from this? Who loses?
I am persuaded to continue to make my calls because I love the sport and the opportunity to put a good quality call into a hunter's hand at an affordable price, a little more pricy the WalMart or Bass Pro or some of the other China based call companies, but my calls as I am sure the calls of other custom call makers, are USA made with pride and we should have the right to display and sell our wares without second thought.....outside the convention center.
I am going to be staying in the Gaylord, spending 300.00 on a room and most likely 100.00 to 150.00 in meals and 125.00 in gas and that is before I even step foot into the convention center...am I competing against the NWTF? Nope....just China and Thailand...
Remember, when you guys that are against violating the nwtf air space with a small call makers show, as you are there meeting and greeting people' don't hand out any business cards. if you sell your calls across the street or out of your wallet there's no difference.
Gary
As someone who has been on both sides of the fence , this is my take on it . I am a longtime sponsor and member of the NWTF and I donate many calls to chapters as well as to the competitions also. I have had a booth at Nationals and I have sold from my room also. While the NWTF is a great organization , they are geared toward the money involved in the convention . Booth prices are so high now that unless you produce hundreds of calls to sell there , you cannot come out on top . Before you jump on callmakers who sell without a booth , you must understand that some of the top callmakers in the country do business that way . Even some of the top names in the business can't all afford a booth to sell just a handful of calls . As far as a group getting together in a booth , the NWTF does not allow more than one dealer to advertise in a booth , you could group up but only one guy will be able to display his name in the booth . That is done to keep the small guys from banding together to save money . If you have never been to the Gaylord and experienced the costs involved with showing or even staying there then you cant possibly tell someone else what is "right " or " wrong" about selling calls in nashville . Now I don't suggest that anyone sells in front of someone else's booth , there are always places to step out and run calls or you can step into a friend's booth to do business if they allow you to do so . I love the mission of the NWTF and I support it 100% . That said , the federation does not look out for the small callmakers which are a big part of the draw at the show . The booths are priced out of most callmakers budget and are geared toward the big companies which can purchase multiple booths IMO , ten callmakers set up in individual booths will draw more people than ONE big company setting up in 10 booths . Many of us , myself included , go to the show to see and run custom calls , not to visit the big booths like Remington or Yamaha .
Jusy my 2 cents worth .
You know I never thought about the big group of makers under one name thing...of course I am sure it is that way to keep confusion down as to billing and so forth. BUT......one thing I just thought about is if there were a group of callmakers who wanted to sit in a space under one name, just rent it under the site you are a memebr of. I saw this last couple years where a group of memeber got together and rented a space, set up calls from several call makers....they were selling calls too, as well as visiting and promoting their site. Now that is just an idea.....I am sure you would need approval from the site adminstrator to use the site's name. But if yu are looking to setup in the Convention Center and can't afford it, like me, this would conquer one battle....
Selling calls in the convention center without a Tenn. State Tax Vendors License can get you in big trouble. Tax Commission are there watching for this.
Bob
In my opening post and follow up, I specified off the Opryland grounds.
I don't think it would be couth to set up on the grounds to do it. But it would make a great meet and greet and an opportunity to actually talk to makers and hear the calls. The main show floor gets so crowded and loud that it is tough to hear well and make good choices. I try to get there early and get out before it gets so crowded. I can only take about 4-5 hours of it, and a lot of others say the same thing. The amount of money involved in such a sideshow would be fairly nominal anyway and not hurt anyone, particularly if the expo hall is booked/filled with booths and packed with people.
I'll tell ya what I'd like to see. Since the Opryland is such a huge complex. Why couldn't they have one of their big rooms devoted to the smaller operation custom call makers. They could leave the giant double booths for the big dogs on the main convention floor. But what about one of the other big rooms with small booths, at a lesser cost, maybe $500 per booth. I'd be willing to bet they could fill it right up and it would get plenty of traffic.
I agree with you Brian. Everyone would benefit from that in the end, small call makers get some publicity and the NWTF gets their money.
Quote from: merocustomcalls on January 23, 2013, 12:59:21 PM
I'll tell ya what I'd like to see. Since the Opryland is such a huge complex. Why couldn't they have one of their big rooms devoted to the smaller operation custom call makers. They could leave the giant double booths for the big dogs on the main convention floor. But what about one of the other big rooms with small booths, at a lesser cost, maybe $500 per booth. I'd be willing to bet they could fill it right up and it would get plenty of traffic.
I'd be willing to bet they could fill it right up and it would get plenty of traffic.
that's exactly what would happen, and i along with 95% of the other turkey hunters would be there spending the $75.00 that moma said we could spend on a call. not up there looking at a $30.000 dolar outboard motor, a four weeler and a $3.000 dollar guided hunt. man there would be a riot between the big boys and nwtf, don't see that happening. just my 2 cents worth.
Gary
People on both sides of the discussion bring up several good points.
Regardless whether you are running a side show across town or out your room are you not , in part, capitalizing on the marketing efforts of the national show to draw patrons? Isn't that promotion part of benefit of having booth space at the show? From my perspective the issue is over who cultivated the collective audience. These shows are all about promoting and marketing.
Why not organize a cyber show right hear on the OG website? Start a special thread, limit it to just photos & sound clips to showcase custom calls. Make it special in some way that it's only available for a limited time.
For what it's worth. Just a thought from someone sitting in the back row.
Muck
Do what you wish, do you think the large manufacturers started out that way? Do you really think they played by all the rules and that they never tried to sell under the counter?
There successful because they found ways to market there products and get it to the masses. While they may frown now at competition there own past is far from clean.
If you are willing to take the steps to forward your business be strong enough to handle the negatives. But in the end selling calls to individuals at shows is not going to make you rich and the negatives will out weigh the positives. I think if you really want to become something you will need to get in stores, start local and as $ permits grow and make connections.
What I see is a business opportunity for someone business minded. We are all manufacturers and few of us have the drive or know how to be retailers. We need a retailer to form a co-op. This co-op can provide purchasing power for members, web-site and marketing help at discounted rates, and provide booth space for members. Of course members will have to realize they must compete against each other at the same table but its a necessary evil to have a spot at the table.
I sense a :TrainWreck1: coming!
if your calls are worth a salt then you should have no trouble selling with a booth in tn.what i see in this thread is a bunch of "callmakers" that dont actually believe in their calls and bunch of excuses
::)
I think every call maker here got his number.
This is in no way right!!! On a different level, a couple months ago my wife planned a yard sale one Saturday. Worked her butt off advertising and getting ready. Neighbor across the road comes home right at dark on Friday and sees us setting up and that I had put out signs along the hwy and at intersections, as we live off the beaten path. Just so happens his house is first. He is outside throwing his stuff out when I realize what he is doing. He said well I saw y'all are having a sale I might as well too. I could have punched him in the mouth. No different here he took advantage of her hard work.
Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk 2
And the NWTF promotes and manufacturers buy booth space using callmaker competition as entertainment. Personally if you enter the contest you should get a spot at a table.
Who's using who? Maybe they need to make a section for competitive callmakers at drastically reduced $.
Many sides to this and see no clear cut right or wrong, just be willing to accept the good and bad from our decisions.
Quote from: ol bob on December 20, 2012, 05:22:49 PM
1200.00 plus room plus food plus gas around 2000,00
This is not the case, I had a booth at the convention over the weekend and I payed $775 for it. If you want a corner booth with two booth sections know you are talk 1200$. But it is only 775 for a single booth.
The convention booths are not a charity , and nobody is forcing anyone to have or.... not have one -
If you are planning on attending the Nashville convention you are most likely very serious into the business , and be prepared to make a commitment to gain access to that kind of traffic and customers , its not free nor easy to pull of a annual event like that - The Opryland convention center most likely gobbles up the lions share of the fees
I will throw out some numbers there for you to consider , I am very well aware of what retail leasing space fetches in high traffic shopping centers - if you are in a high end mall , leasing a spot the size of a Wallgreens in floor space , your looking at about $80,000 per month , for a foodcourt location your looking a $25,000 a month - big bucks ---- so a booth for $1,000 -1,800 is nothing compared to that level
It looks like they could stretch out the convention a few more days or expand the floor space to add additional vendors - possibly large outdoor tents ?? etc.. that would generate more revenue for the federation - For the record I don't think it is a sound idea to have a rival trade show at the same time in the same city -In fact I think its plain wrong --- you will get skunked
That's like comparing Apples and bowling balls! Your talking a Month compared to 3 days. Technically I'm not disagreeing at all because 775-1200 is fair if you compare what is written above this. If I do my math correctly your getten what 2 maybe 3 days of retail for what Panda Express pays a day!! I agree with all ya'll on certain issues stated here. I do support the NWTF but I limit my amount of donations through the year because of this. I'm in the ARMy we have a thing called the combined federal campaign. I donated 400.00 of my pay check to the NWTF this year just through that. Now do you think they threw me a free membership (even though I made my name visible to them) NOPE. Not to mention LOOK at where those dollars go 75% to overhead. Sorry to get off track here guys but this is why I keep NWTF donations low. I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum who is a call maker has donated about the cost of a booth maybe double or triple that but all everyone gets is maybe a tax right off. NO Disrespect towards anyone here just wanted to chime in with some stuff.
To add to this . Just recent a NWTF Chapter here asked me to donate a few calls for them I said no problem! I asked can I bring about 7 to 10 calls to sell after the auction? I was pretty taken back when the guy told me I dont think that would be a good idea. I respectfully replied then I dont think it would be a good idea that I donate my calls then. MONEY MONEY MONEY drives the train. I know thats just one chapter and their not all like this but WOW really. What I think IMO and its just me what fuels the argument on both sides here is that some of us have been treated pretty decent by the NWTF chapters and some of the others have been treated like a kid getten a shake down for his luch money on the playground. Its a harsh analysis but thats what I equate it too. Here is what I can show you as fact I donated $535 in calls to NWTF chapters That included 100%(which was only 1in MN) donation at comps. with the above 400 that almost pays for 93% of a booth. And ill ask this question as well how many of ya'll got free addmission to the Nationals that donated calls or any other services to them?? Not this guy! Im not tring to Bash the NWTF here I just think they have gone slightly off track.. I think a credit system should be given with member numbers so that way when you donate you have credit to #1 put towards a booth at an NWTF event or #2 pay for your darn tickets to it....
I talked to a lot of "custom call" makers at the convention this year, their input was as follows: 1. Biggest complaint was space, everything seemed to be too close this year, not allowing sufficient time for customers to take full advantage of viewing and trying out their wares. 2. Location, bigger bucks bought better locations, one seller told me that he was going to be charged an extra 100 bucks if his stall was just three spots down from his current location, why? Because they figured the foot traffic was going to be better, thus his profits were going to be higher....100 bucks for moving 30 feet...come on. 3. Too much emphasis on "celebrities" and not enough on the call makers, some felt that the NWTF was making too big a deal over celebs, and or the larger manufactured call makers and not focusing on the smaller guys. One person told me that just a few booths down from him there was a "PSYCHIC" set up.....and that he was talking to someone who had a booth set not far from a certain celeb station and he practically had to grab folks walking by his booth. 4. Paying extras for certain things like 112.00 for a computer hook up....now come on, is it about MONEY? I think that overall the NWTF is trying hard to promote the craft and the sport, and that things have gotten so big over the years that it is hard to keep up with implementing fair and practical service for all involved.
Will it get better or worse? Who knows? Will it get smaller, nope, will it get cheaper, I doubt it. Will there be complaints, sure, will they be heard? Hummmm......by whom? And what actions will be taken? I do know this much, I went by the PSYCHIC booth and there wasn't anyone asking her questions....maybe that was a sign?
Complain, you might as well go throw a dime in the fountain and wish, you will get the same results. this is 2013 you have to use your dollars as your spokesperson, don't lease a table next year, don't go to the show next year, go to one of the local state chapter shows. boycot them one year and watch what happens, or go next year pay the high fees and post your complaints again.