Read two articles in GON that had me thinking. One was about poult per hen survival over the last 25 years, the other was a survey by deer hunters rating their season.
The turkey article had a chart that showed survival rates by poults per hen. In the mid 80s it was over 4 poults per hen. Today it is below 2. This is ironic, that the decreased survival rate also kind of follows when coyotes started showing up in fox pens and when their population has started to explode. Now most biologist would blame it on habitat loss and urban sprawl. Kinda ironic
Now the deer article had over 70 % negatively rating their deer season, as I read every negative comment I kept seeing " coyote". Apparently many coyotes have been seen during daylight hours, and many deer hunters witness coyote problems. Many made note of the rapid lack of deer sighting and overall numbers seen. Again kind of ironic.
What irked me about the survey was how many hunters complained about the coyote problem. They all thought the state should handle it or pay bounty. Nobody said they were gonna become predator hunters. I find it funny hunters will spend all this money on gear, cameras, food plots, etc...but very few are taking up predator hunting.
I plan on waging war on predators, specifically coyotes. Just wonder how many of you guys would do the same? To me the coyote epidemic is so bad I believe you ought to have to register at least one predator kill before you can be issued a big game permit.
I urge you guys to think on this a while. Imagine what we could all do for our deer and turkey population if we all committed to just killing one predator each.
:agreed:
I believe coyotes are scapegoats.
In reality, they are opportunistic feeders who kill raccoons, opossum, and skunk. All of these animals are notorious for preying on turkeys at their most vulnerable phase of life: while in the egg.
I firmly believe that a decrease in trapper numbers has contributed to low poult production in conjunction with a decrease in quality habitat and habitat loss but I do not think the correspondence you and the survey respondents speak of is directly attributable to the Wiley coyote.
Well, now coons, opossoms, and skunks are on my hit list to... But coyotes aren't getting off the hook.
I think the urban sprawl is a scapegoat in my area. I know many private lands that haven't cut timber or changed habitat that are loosing turkey and hearing less gobbling, but seeing and hearing more coyotes.
Two years ago, we watched a hen and her poults all summer long on the cams at www.gadeercam.com. She had 14 poults to start, by the end of the summer she was down to 10.
Last year,no hens or poults were seen. Yet to see what this year brings
Gman
I think one of the worst culprits is far smaller than the coyote, coon and possum. But their numbers exceed all other predators and scavengers combined. And their numbers are increasing, and their range is creeping North.
Quote from: guesswho on May 09, 2012, 06:11:39 PM
I think one of the worst culprits is far smaller than the coyote, coon and possum. But their numbers exceed all other predators combined. And their numbers are increasing, and their range is creeping North.
No shoulders.
Quote from: Flydown on May 09, 2012, 06:12:40 PM
Quote from: guesswho on May 09, 2012, 06:11:39 PM
I think one of the worst culprits is far smaller than the coyote, coon and possum. But their numbers exceed all other predators combined. And their numbers are increasing, and their range is creeping North.
No shoulders.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/olesixbeards/thumbnailCA00UCVY.jpg)
I have a friend that found a yote den last summer and put a game cam on it and in about a two month span the female brought in 9 spotted fawn . Now this will put are hurting on your deer herd .
Every chance I get I kill as many as I can. This is the only way to solve this problem..
Watched a female coyote stalk my hen decoys in a field for a long time today. It was actually pretty interesting until she got close enough to shoot then it got serious. Felt guilty that she probably had pups BUT, figured it was maybe 8 or 10 coyotes with one shot. BOOM!
The predator/prey relationship keeps the population of both in check. Have any of you been around long enough to remember what happened in the trap and transfer days? When turkeys were introduced into a new suitable habitat populations exploded...until predator numbers caught up. Then the turkey numbers were reduced to a sustained level and pretty much stayed there; except for seasonal changes e.g. bad hatches due to weather. Now, of course, it takes all ground-nesting birds longer to recover due to the still greater number of predators. But, the predators finally die off until things balance again. Man is just another predator for things to sidestep and, remember, you can't stockpile game. Consider this scenario, which is pretty much the way it is: Joe Hunter kills mama coyote "A" in the spring. She wouild have had ten pups. Only five would have survived due to lack of food. Mama coyote "B" has ten pups; all survive due to not having to compete for food with "A" pups. Balance.
I think guesswho is spot on with the ants. They've killed off most of our quail.
Timber loss has also decreased our turkey populations imo, but it has really help out our deer. Whenever they cut, body weights go up and we rack up the pic's on the camera's. It does make them harder to hunt, but provides plenty of food and cover for our whitetails. The turkey on my place avoid the cut overs.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on May 09, 2012, 04:53:12 PM
I believe coyotes are scapegoats.
In reality, they are opportunistic feeders who kill raccoons, opossum, and skunk. All of these animals are notorious for preying on turkeys at their most vulnerable phase of life: while in the egg.
I firmly believe that a decrease in trapper numbers has contributed to low poult production in conjunction with a decrease in quality habitat and habitat loss but I do not think the correspondence you and the survey respondents speak of is directly attributable to the Wiley coyote.
I agree completey with this comment.. :agreed:
If Coyotes effected Turkey numbers there wouldn't be any turkey in Texas .. and they have tons of Turkeys and tons of coyotes.. Now Deer are another story, I think the yotes do affect deer populations because they catch the fawns.
I did a goggle search yesterday after I posted this to see what study's have been done. There have been a few, but most weren't to in depth.
One study was very detailed. It discussed deer, grouse, and turkey predation by coyotes. Long story short, the issue from the coyotes is not on adult deer or turkeys. It is on fawns and nesting hens. It said in their study 55% percent of the coyotes diet was fawns. They severely impacted the deer herd in that area. when talking about turkeys vs grouse. The study did not give a percentage of diet, but yet discuss the impact on nesting. Apparently even though hens will re-nest, once their original nest is destroyed their re- nesting attempts are far less successful. Broad size if successful is considerably lower. It said there is a direct link to the poult to hen ratio...which is what I brought up in my first post. This study also had areas where active coyote trapping killing was being done, and brood numbers for turkeys and fawns were way up.
So from my research, it is evident to me that coyotes do a lot of damage, but the most important time for me to make an impact is during the nesting season. The most damage to our turkeys is coming from all predators during the nesting cycle. Again not only do we lose the poults/eggs just laid, but also the re-nesting efforts are far less successful.
I don't think coyotes are a huge problem for the turkeys on our properties, either. We have a lot of them though. I killed three of them in January in fifteen minutes in the same spot from a deer stand. I've seen hens not even pay a lick of attention to coyotes in open fields that are within 75 yards of them in Ohio. Our biggest problem seems to also be raccoons and possums. I can't carry enough arrows/ammo to clean them out during the seasons. They're everywhere and they are always scouring around known nesting sites. It's a wonder any poults make it...
Quote from: savduck on May 09, 2012, 04:30:53 PM
Read two articles in GON that had me thinking. One was about poult per hen survival over the last 25 years, the other was a survey by deer hunters rating their season.
Can you point me to this article? I would like to read it as well.
Quote from: savduck on May 10, 2012, 11:07:42 AM
I did a goggle search yesterday after I posted this to see what study's have been done. There have been a few, but most weren't to in depth.
One study was very detailed. It discussed deer, grouse, and turkey predation by coyotes. Long story short, the issue from the coyotes is not on adult deer or turkeys. It is on fawns and nesting hens. It said in their study 55% percent of the coyotes diet was fawns. They severely impacted the deer herd in that area. when talking about turkeys vs grouse. The study did not give a percentage of diet, but yet discuss the impact on nesting. Apparently even though hens will re-nest, once their original nest is destroyed their re- nesting attempts are far less successful. Broad size if successful is considerably lower. It said there is a direct link to the poult to hen ratio...which is what I brought up in my first post. This study also had areas where active coyote trapping killing was being done, and brood numbers for turkeys and fawns were way up.
So from my research, it is evident to me that coyotes do a lot of damage, but the most important time for me to make an impact is during the nesting season. The most damage to our turkeys is coming from all predators during the nesting cycle. Again not only do we lose the poults/eggs just laid, but also the re-nesting efforts are far less successful.
If this study you are citing was the one conducted in South Carolina, it is a very poor example due to the fact thy the habitat is very, very poor when assessed from a fawning and brooding perspective.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on May 10, 2012, 12:50:08 PM
Quote from: savduck on May 10, 2012, 11:07:42 AM
I did a goggle search yesterday after I posted this to see what study's have been done. There have been a few, but most weren't to in depth.
One study was very detailed. It discussed deer, grouse, and turkey predation by coyotes. Long story short, the issue from the coyotes is not on adult deer or turkeys. It is on fawns and nesting hens. It said in their study 55% percent of the coyotes diet was fawns. They severely impacted the deer herd in that area. when talking about turkeys vs grouse. The study did not give a percentage of diet, but yet discuss the impact on nesting. Apparently even though hens will re-nest, once their original nest is destroyed their re- nesting attempts are far less successful. Broad size if successful is considerably lower. It said there is a direct link to the poult to hen ratio...which is what I brought up in my first post. This study also had areas where active coyote trapping killing was being done, and brood numbers for turkeys and fawns were way up.
So from my research, it is evident to me that coyotes do a lot of damage, but the most important time for me to make an impact is during the nesting season. The most damage to our turkeys is coming from all predators during the nesting cycle. Again not only do we lose the poults/eggs just laid, but also the re-nesting efforts are far less successful.
If this study you are citing was the one conducted in South Carolina, it is a very poor example due to the fact thy the habitat is very, very poor when assessed from a fawning and brooding perspective.
Grouse in SC?...
The Savannah River Site research has shown how big of an impact coyotes are having on deer. Something like a 76% fawn mortality rate last year. Years ago, the rate wasn't anything close to that. Regardless of fawn habitat (I'm not sure where in the world you got that that swampland is poor habitat...), there's huge difference, attributed to coyotes.
My buddy worked on site last year and is working again there now. He say's it's loaded with turkeys, despite the coyotes. There was something like 23 out of 24 hunters killing a gobbler on the disabled/youth (I can't remember which it was) hunt there this spring. That's in one day.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on May 10, 2012, 12:50:08 PM
Quote from: savduck on May 10, 2012, 11:07:42 AM
I did a goggle search yesterday after I posted this to see what study's have been done. There have been a few, but most weren't to in depth.
One study was very detailed. It discussed deer, grouse, and turkey predation by coyotes. Long story short, the issue from the coyotes is not on adult deer or turkeys. It is on fawns and nesting hens. It said in their study 55% percent of the coyotes diet was fawns. They severely impacted the deer herd in that area. when talking about turkeys vs grouse. The study did not give a percentage of diet, but yet discuss the impact on nesting. Apparently even though hens will re-nest, once their original nest is destroyed their re- nesting attempts are far less successful. Broad size if successful is considerably lower. It said there is a direct link to the poult to hen ratio...which is what I brought up in my first post. This study also had areas where active coyote trapping killing was being done, and brood numbers for turkeys and fawns were way up.
So from my research, it is evident to me that coyotes do a lot of damage, but the most important time for me to make an impact is during the nesting season. The most damage to our turkeys is coming from all predators during the nesting cycle. Again not only do we lose the poults/eggs just laid, but also the re-nesting efforts are far less successful.
If this study you are citing was the one conducted in South Carolina, it is a very poor example due to the fact thy the habitat is very, very poor when assessed from a fawning and brooding perspective.
No it wasn't. I didn't see that one.
Quote from: Andy S. on May 10, 2012, 12:06:21 PM
Quote from: savduck on May 09, 2012, 04:30:53 PM
Read two articles in GON that had me thinking. One was about poult per hen survival over the last 25 years, the other was a survey by deer hunters rating their season.
Can you point me to this article? I would like to read it as well.
Yes, It was a GON article in a preseason publication. Try February or March of this year. It had an article about turkeys and the preseason forecast...that had the poult per hen info and commentary. The second article was a deer survey in the same issue.
I am not sure what causes the decline in particular, I believe that it is probably a combination of all things mentioned. Turkeys have so many predators after them and primarily their eggs that survival from egg to hatch is almost a miracle.
I can say that in the last 5 years of my hunting seasons (deer) I have seen more Yotes and Bobs than all of my combined 22 years in the woods. Cut over has increased, fire ants are everywhere (i had to clean them out of my hoot flute one morning in the dark), and also their has been an explosion of turkey hunters and a decrease in lands capable of holding and sustaining flocks. Mix that all together and flocks will decline in number.
IMO the bobcats are harder on the adult birds here than the coyotes. The coons and possums are really hard on nests. I do think the coyotes are hard on the fawn population and I go after them any Chance I get. I also think that the you must kill every doe to get a 1 to 1 ratio mentality has really hurt deer populations. Some people call this qdma, but I think it's idiocy.