Sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 Words. This is a 20 ga, HEVI 13 #7 pattern at 40 yards. It is a measured 40. This was my 10 the shot of the day. I was tired, and pulled my shot about 3 inches right. My POI was off by 3 inches. If I would have pulled it another inch, I was dealing with a wounded bird even with a dense 10 ring pattern. This goes to show you how much human error comes into play even with a dense pattern at longer distances and why this is a hot topic.
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h173/dcrow77/P1010260.jpg)
That is why you need a good 20" pattern.
Agree!!
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on March 11, 2012, 12:52:40 AM
That is why you need a good 20" pattern.
100% agree, I think this pattern is to tight, but thats not the point of the thread.
just dont shooot 10 times at a turkey and hold steady.... :anim_25:
Quote from: savduck on March 10, 2012, 10:54:35 PM
Sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 Words. This is a 20 ga, HEVI 13 #7 pattern at 40 yards. It is a measured 40. This was my 10 th shot of the day. I was tired, and pulled my shot about 3 inches right. My POI was off by 3 inches. If I would have pulled it another inch, I was dealing with a wounded bird even with a great pattern. This goes to show you how much human error comes into play even with a great pattern and why this is a hot topic.
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h173/dcrow77/P1010260.jpg)
Yup, Im turning 150's-170's with my 20 guages and the patterns are very tight. I squeeze the trigger like im shooting a rifle and im able to stay on. My 20 guages are wicked at 30yds. My 12 guages that turn high numbers are super tight within 30yds. They turn killer 20" patterns at 40 but regardless they are super tight up close. I shot a turkey at 12-15yds last year and the pattern was about the size of a softball. The guns i shoot folks would have a problem with if "snatching" on the trigger is a bad habit for them. Guess thats why my dad started me out with a MOD and then a FULL. I have progressed to where i am but sure didn't start there and dont recommend it to novice hunters.
Do you know what the difference is between a 20ga and a 12ga? More Shot! which means larger pattern and more wiggle room. Just ask anyone who shoots sub gages in trap, skeet or sporting clays. You can make all the same shots that the 12ga guys can but with less wiggle room. I would not consider 40 yds to long of a shot with that gun, shell, choke. The turkey would still be dead. Yes, if you would have pulled it off a little more it wouldn't have been. But the same could have been said for a 15yd shot. How much wiggle room do you think you have at 15yds with that combo? The edge of the pattern may be at 5" @40yds it may be 2" @ 15yds. Does this mean not to shoot a 20ga? Not to shoot over 35yds? not to shoot under 20yds? No, It should meen know your guns abilities, your abilities, and the situation at hand. Know the limitations. Or we call all shoot 10 gages with 2 1/2 oz of shot, spreader choke and limit our shots to 25yds.
Quote from: savduck on March 11, 2012, 07:34:32 AM
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on March 11, 2012, 12:52:40 AM
That is why you need a good 20" pattern.
100% agree, I think this pattern is to tight, but thats not the point of the thread.
I know what your saying, but again if the 20" pattern was there you would have no need to make this thread in the first place. Don't mean that smart either. But your 20" pattern looks very weak. If it was what it should be, that bird would easily still be just as dead.
Sav, either I don't understand your point or I don't agree with it if I understand it correctly. I don't see where you shooting to the right on that target had anything to do with how far it was.
Fact is, with a tight pattern there is no wiggle room no matter how far or near the shot.
Your maximum distance should be determined by your pattern testing and at what range your gun falls below the desired hit density.
Whether or not you kill the bird is determined by your shooting ability at ANY range within that acceptable distance.
If you pull a shot you will miss or wound one up close too.
Quote from: wmahunter on March 11, 2012, 01:04:28 PM
Sav, either I don't understand your point or I don't agree with it if I understand it correctly. I don't see where you shooting to the right on that target had anything to do with how far it was.
Fact is, with a tight pattern there is no wiggle room no matter how far or near the shot.
Your maximum distance should be determined by your pattern testing and at what range your gun falls below the desired hit density.
Whether or not you kill the bird is determined by your shooting ability at ANY range within that acceptable distance.
X2
I understand what you are talking about... savduck
And don't get me wrong, I do see your point. But what I was saying is that if we all pattern our guns to where they shoot good 10" for a main core kill pattern and still have a very good 20" kill pattern then this gives us more wiggle room. This is why I try to tell everyone to pattern any load in their gun to see how well they pattern that way you know how it's going to perform come turkey season. I know sometimes people say shooting paper and what kind of pattern is needed to kill a turkey are 2 different things, and some think there is such a thing as overdoing it. But I like to think of it as I know I have done my homework ahead of time and know that I am throwing the best possible 10" and 20" pattern I can possibly throw when the moment of truth arises. That way if I do make a slight shooting error, I'm still covered with plenty of insurance so to speak.
IF the thread title were "A picture to support NO SUPER TIGHT PATTERNS" then I could understand, BUT the picture and discussion do not show an issue with "LONG SHOTS".
I don't agree with long shots either (farther than your gun/load/pattern will cleanly kill) but the picture and story here simply do not support that argument IMO....he has a very good killing pattern in the picture...just off on the POI which has nothing to do with distance.
Hevi, I agree with you that a big dense pattern is better than a small dense pattern however this still has nothing to do with distance....only accuracy.
I think all you guys get it, but are over thinking what I put up.
This is an experimental pattern in my new 20 ga gun. Im trying to find a pattern that has a good core 10 and 20. This pattern does not have that and is to tight, and I totally agree about the points brought up about having a 20 yard pattern. There are however a bunch of guys shooting this type of pattern and letting it rip at longer distances. This is more for the new guys getting into hunting.
My whole point in the thread was to show that a gun that is sighted in dead on, can, due to human error at 40 or longer yardages, cripple birds. Thats it nothing more.
Quote from: savduck on March 12, 2012, 09:42:38 AM
I think all you guys get it, but are over thinking what I put up.
My whole point in the thread was to show that a gun that is sighted in dead on, can, due to human error at 40 or longer yardages, cripple birds. Thats it nothing more.
There are basically three ways to "miss" a bird.
1. You don't shoot straight and simply miss him. (
not distance related)
2. You shoot straight, have a good pattern, but the shot pellets don't do the job. ie: too small/light weight shot pellets. (
distance related)
3. You shoot straight but the pattern is too weak and the bird doesn't get hit with a killing pellet. ie: too far for your choke/pattern. (
distance related)
Your example fits into category 1 and is not distance related yet you still are trying to tie it to 40 yds for some reason which I don't understand. ??? Just leave out the 40 yd part and I can agree with everything else you are saying.
Quote from: wmahunter on March 12, 2012, 08:27:31 AM
IF the thread title were "A picture to support NO SUPER TIGHT PATTERNS" then I could understand, BUT the picture and discussion do not show an issue with "LONG SHOTS".
I don't agree with long shots either (farther than your gun/load/pattern will cleanly kill) but the picture and story here simply do not support that argument IMO....he has a very good killing pattern in the picture...just off on the POI which has nothing to do with distance.
Hevi, I agree with you that a big dense pattern is better than a small dense pattern however this still has nothing to do with distance....only accuracy.
Having been a benchrest shooter I know all too well about accuracy. And your correct. I had a 22 rimfire benchrest gun that would put 5 shots inside this smiley :toothy9: at 50yds in good conditions.
Guys , I want take the time to thank all the good members for all the positive pm's , kind words and understanding regarding this controversial issue that on many peoples opinion could alter the image, identity , and sport of turkey hunting as we know it - the outporing of support and understanding even from some of us who are shooting fanatics is very appreciated and we know that the site members understand the reasoning to be of maintaing a immage of great resposibilty to a game bird we all have the greatest respect for
again , we are not telling anyone what to do in thier own free time , just to be very cautions of the impression it portrays of the sport especially to new guys, we are all human and we make mistakes nobody is perfect , things happen and we want to insure a public image of making clean responsible shots in the woods -
I will share with you that last spring ther were several posts where people crippled gobblers at 50 yards , the bottom line is that the gobblers were crippled and probaby died a cruel death , and second they were influenced to try this right here on this site - as a group as a whole we want to promote responsible shooting and avoid the errors that us hunters we all make
thank you again for the support and understanding on this issue-Shannon
:icon_thumright: :icon_thumright: :you_rock:
This is a good post and had to read again , but shows the necessity of properly set up equipment ,that point true of aim -- some very good points were made starting with the Original Poster on down through the thread
--Shannon :icon_thumright:
I think in time these heavier than lead shells is really going to hurt our sport it us to be to see how close you could get a gobbler to come say 20 yards or less when i started 30 years ago it was like that.now withthese fancy loads people don't rely on their calling ability anymore just a kill i wonder how many birds get away because of to long of shots or human error :cahoot:
Playing Devil's Advocate here:
At a greater distance than what you patterned at, the pattern would open up a little and become a more forgiving "hunting" pattern.
Your near miss was so critical because your pattern was so tight. If 40 Yards, plus a little cushion for yardage misjudgement is the maximum range, why not open your pattern up a little and make it more forgiving?
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on March 13, 2012, 08:52:43 AM
Playing Devil's Advocate here:
At a greater distance than what you patterned at, the pattern would open up a little and become a more forgiving "hunting" pattern.
Your near miss was so critical because your pattern was so tight. If 40 Yards, plus a little cushion for yardage misjudgement is the maximum range, why not open your pattern up a little and make it more forgiving?
Thats not the pattern Im going with. Thats a new gun and Im shooting several different chokes to find the right pattern. There is discussion of this earlier in the thread. The picture is just to show how much human error plays when taking a shot.
Savduck, I understand what your saying, just a little geometry/physics. The further the distance the greater the error becomes. Super tight patterns are less likely to cover the error down range.
Bottom line.. pulling=missing.
Got a little test for you guys..set up a target at 20yds..put the gun on sand bags or lead sled..move the barrel 2 inches off bullseye. Fire a shot. Do the same thing at 40yds..move the barrel 2 inches..fire a shot. I think you will be surprised at how far off at 40yds you will be by pulling the barrel 2inches.
*if you snatch on the trigger..shooting free hand..hunting situation..pulling the barrel 2 inches is pretty easy to do.
*by the way..I would hunt with that pattern..I would put a red dot on the gun and "rock and roll". But that's just my preference.You may have slightly pulled that one and the turkey is still dead with a 20g @ 40.
Never mind.