We do all types of chokes. The other day we tested a sporting clay choke. On paper it was not any better then the chokes that they had. We shot a few clay targets and it was day and night on how the targets broke.
So that got me to thinking the paper is 2 dimensional and real world is 3 dimensional. So could this be something to think about with all shells.
We have the guys from the show going to film some of the test we do. They going to set up and film from the time it exit the barrel to it hits the paper. Then we slow it down to see what is going on.
What do yall think about all this. I may be spending to much time on trying to find the perfect set up but that is what maid the target guns work.
What you are talking about is the stringing of a shot load in the air. No shot does not fly in a flat 2 dimentional circle through the air. There are leading pellets and trailing pellets. This isn't critical when shooting at a stationary target however. It can play a factor on fast pass shooting at greater range however. For turkey hunting, the pattern board is fairly accurate in predicting how many pellets will strike the bird. It does not tell you what penetration power they will have though. A load of #6 lead isnt going to do the damage at 40 yards that a load of #6 HTL is going to do.
Your question was Is Pattern on paper a true test ,its as good as we have till we actually use the gun on a bird, it gives us a good idea if we can hit him and how far we can kill him cleanly.
paper does not lie. you will have a hole where the shot is hitting. but you are shooting at a stationary target. so you are getting the full affect of the pattern.
when shooting at moving targets such as clays .you have No idea of what percentage of pellets are actually making contact.
Quote from: VAHUNTER on February 21, 2011, 08:33:27 AM
paper does not lie. you will have a hole where the shot is hitting. but you are shooting at a stationary target. so you are getting the full affect of the pattern.
when shooting at moving targets such as clays .you have No idea of what percentage of pellets are actually making contact.
:agreed:
I think that it will not give you the full story. I know on a clay going away one turn to dust one just broke. This was done a few times to just see if it was hit even every time. Paper they looked the same. I know with the target gun you will get a clean hole or a rag hole at 60 ft with old junk 9's.
Now with this it makes me think that if the target is not movable you may not get the complete kill pattern. Now on something moving if it is a long shot stream if the 1st shot hit the target/head will start to move. Then some/part of shot will miss.
I know we shoot a target on wood that is thrown in the air. You have 2 chokes both blow hold on paper in target holder. One blow hole on paper with block behind it moving in the air. The other will put good number of shoot but will have shoot marks across the paper. That say it a long shot stream so will that hurt on a good kill.
Have have saw on film that the shows have that it look like some of the birds look like they was hit with a hammer some just look like you slapped them.
I ask this because I am looking to give folks what they need to kill. I like to blow holes in things and it looks like 2 different chokes. We had holes blown in ducks this year at 20 to 25 yards.
I think I understand what you are saying. I would think a can filled with spray foam would work. It will move when first hit kind of like a birds head. Maybe something heavier than foam would be better.
Quote from: JohnDoe on February 21, 2011, 12:17:53 AM
Looked at your web site and very little info. Can find anything but a general desciption.
???
Google it you will find stuff from both shows. We are working on the web page now. We have put all our time in the chokes not the page. A web page can make you look big and bad. I not care alot about a web page just what feed back we get from the guys/gals that shoot our stuff.
Do some research on shot strings. The longer the shot string the worse it is for skeet///wingshooting. Tighter chokes usually mean longer shotstrings. Jug chokes shorten shot strings. Like skeeterbait said It is not as important with turkeys if the shot hits them a split second late or early.
That is why I ask for the feed back from yall. I know we get good patterns on paper and blown up ducks and targets. I just want to make sure that we see the same with the Turkeys. I know that if you get a ball of shoot to hit you better then a long string.
You was on the target site.
Link on profile take you to the hunting page.
That link on your profile is a dead link.
And to answer your question, I agree with Hal.
I always say this about shooting loads and testing to see what works. If you want to play, you have to pay. And testing to see what works on paper will let you know what will work on live targets. Some say shooting numbers in 10" circles on paper is totally different than killing turkeys. Well I disagree totally. What your pattern does on paper, lets you know for sure what will take place on the game your shooting at for number of hits. That's why I laugh when folks say Indian Creek chokes are worried more about 10" numbers than they are about killing turkeys. Those 10" numbers are your working ants of your pattern when you stop and think about it. More times than not the better your 10" numbers the better your 20" numbers will be as well.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 21, 2011, 10:44:50 PM
I always say this about shooting loads and testing to see what works. If you want to play, you have to pay. And testing to see what works on paper will let you know what will work on live targets. Some say shooting numbers in 10" circles on paper is totally different than killing turkeys. Well I disagree totally. What your pattern does on paper, lets you know for sure what will take place on the game your shooting at for number of hits. That's why I laugh when folks say Indian Creek chokes are worried more about 10" numbers than they are about killing turkeys. Those 10" numbers are your working ants of your pattern when you stop and think about it. More times than not the better your 10" numbers the better your 20" numbers will be as well.
:agreed:
When you shoot at a flying target you get a long shot string. When you shoot at a stationary target while your pattern does expand it still stays centered. Kinda like the difference between between squirting a spray gun or slinging the spray gun from side to side while squirting. One is a long stream of shot and one is a centered concentrtation of shot. Testing a pattern on paper is a very good test for a stationary target. Duck shooting and turkey shooting are apples and oranges.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 21, 2011, 10:34:55 PM
That link on your profile is a dead link.
And to answer your question, I agree with Hal.
Link works. Now if yall are happy with the numbers on paper that is cool. I just did not want to get a false kill pattern. So I will stay with the paper and the 10 inch numbers.
Thanks for the feed back.
You must know where your pattern is hitting and how it is hitting.I can not see my pattern shooting it in the AIR . Turkey hunter
SumToy I do not know if this will help or not but the paper target has helped me with clays. For example I have an old JC Higgins 12 gauge with factory chokes. I could only hit 3 out of 10 clays until I went to the paper pattern board and found where it was shooting at different yardage. From there I jumped to 15 out of 18 clays with most turned to dust. I was shooting Estate 7.5 2 .75 shells. Not knowing where the center of the pellets where caused me to miss. And with a flying target all I knew was a miss. But how far off was I? Went for pheasant and dropped 6 out of 7 and the miss was on me. Hope this helps.
Mike
I would like to sidetrack here for a second. I would sure like to see some pictures of your chokes, especially the turkey chokes. I go to your website and 3 chokes pop up for a split second and then they are gone. Come on man, show some pictures of your chokes!
bird
Patience bird Patience he said they were working on the page but I agree with you I would like to see more also.
Quote from: mossy835 on March 23, 2011, 12:20:01 PM
Patience bird Patience he said they were working on the page but I agree with you I would like to see more also.
Ahhh the heck with patience.... That site has been like that for a long time. I wanna see some PICTURES!!!
Ok yall fill me in on what yall want or need on site. I spend my time in shop and on test rang. LoL. I not have any idea on what folks want to see. I have always sold stuff by showing you what it will do. So I will get on web site next. The big thing the past few has been getting package to put them in. So web is next.
Check what 's in the 15" 20" and 30" circle conuts are too @40 yards to see what the whole pattern is doing. Plus shoot more than one pattern to avg above 5 patterns. This will allow you to be confident when you shot at that turkey you will have the pattern you need too take him.
Quote from: SumToy on February 21, 2011, 11:04:30 PM
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 21, 2011, 10:34:55 PM
That link on your profile is a dead link.
And to answer your question, I agree with Hal.
Link works. Now if yall are happy with the numbers on paper that is cool. I just did not want to get a false kill pattern. So I will stay with the paper and the 10 inch numbers.
Thanks for the feed back.
Quote from: VAHUNTER on February 21, 2011, 08:33:27 AM
paper does not lie. you will have a hole where the shot is hitting. but you are shooting at a stationary target. so you are getting the full affect of the pattern.
when shooting at moving targets such as clays .you have No idea of what percentage of pellets are actually making contact.
:agreed:
I have seen video of a shot string hitting a turkeys head in slow mo..
On the subject of time to target.. It would be interesting to know how many of these pellets are doing the job and if their is enough time difference for the Toms head to kick back and thus the trailing end of the shot string is really just passing over..
I cannot think for the life of me, what video that is on
Shootum. Now you have picked up on what I was talking about. I know we have 2 target chokes. Both blow hole on paper. You shoot target on block of wood that can move one blow hole the other not. Ball of shot string of shot. That why I asked this.
Yeah I've seen a video too that show the shot string as it travels from muzzle to target and can't think of who it was that had it out. Pretty cool video too.
bird
I wonder why you think paper targets are two DIMENSIONAL. Turkey Hunter .
Quote from: jebs chokes on March 24, 2011, 10:13:29 PM
I wonder why you think paper targets are two DIMENSIONAL. Turkey Hunter .
Because they are!! height by width.
Quote from: jebs chokes on March 24, 2011, 10:13:29 PM
I wonder why you think paper targets are two DIMENSIONAL. Turkey Hunter .
I wonder why you wonder why he thinks paper targets are two dimensional...
Sum, you are going to have me going through my extensive DVD library.. I think it is an older HS Strut DVD.. And if I remember correctly the bird is hit the head rocks back and half the string passes over the head meaning the reaction to the initial shot is faster than the entire shot string hitting the head.
So now you have my mind churning and we are on the same page.. So what good is 100 in the head and neck with a long shot string if 50 of the pellets never even do any work as the first 20 had already did the dirty work or do they ?????????????..
Or, Or, What is the possibilities if we can shorten the shot string so that a larger number of pellets are hitting at the initial moment of impact thus increasing damage and insuring that a larger number of shot is going to be hitting the bird thus insuring more will be in vital areas.
Alot of this is over our heads and would require some HD video footage and a dude that is really good at physics to determine the benefits of a shorter shot string hitting a bird vs reaction time..
But another thing to consider is a shorter shot string will entail more pellets crashing into each other thus more flyers..
Quote from: shootumindaface on March 25, 2011, 12:26:12 AM
Sum, you are going to have me going through my extensive DVD library.. I think it is an older HS Strut DVD.. And if I remember correctly the bird is hit the head rocks back and half the string passes over the head meaning the reaction to the initial shot is faster than the entire shot string hitting the head.
So now you have my mind churning and we are on the same page.. So what good is 100 in the head and neck with a long shot string if 50 of the pellets never even do any work as the first 20 had already did the dirty work or do they ?????????????..
Or, Or, What is the possibilities if we can shorten the shot string so that a larger number of pellets are hitting at the initial moment of impact thus increasing damage and insuring that a larger number of shot is going to be hitting the bird thus insuring more will be in vital areas.
Alot of this is over our heads and would require some HD video footage and a dude that is really good at physics to determine the benefits of a shorter shot string hitting a bird vs reaction time..
But another thing to consider is a shorter shot string will entail more pellets crashing into each other thus more flyers..
That was what I was talking about. The bird is like the block of wood.. Now I think the ball of shoot is better but that could be because I have figured it out. LOL