I have a few questions about turkey shot size:
1 – Does the Federal HW #7 pellet have the necessary "kill power" at 50 yds?
2 – Same question about TSS 9 pellets.
3 – If the answers to the above questions are YES then what possible advantage is there for using a Fed HW larger than 7 or a TSS larger than 9?
My opinion on both questions is YES. Actually I feel that they both pack the needed punch at even greater distance than that (although I am not going to shoot farther).
Seems to me that going to a larger pellet will reduce the pattern density and therefore reduce the effective "clean kill" range. The rule I learned when younger was "pattern stops before penetration" and this was talking about lead shot so it would be even MORE true about HTL shot wouldn't it?
I honestly don't understand why Federal even loads HW in 4's and 5's or why anyone would pay the cost and hunt with them if the 7's pack all the punch needed AND will shoot a much denser pattern. Same goes for TSS 8's or larger.
If you hunt with these larger HTL sizes, what's your reason? Am I seeing this completely wrong?
I know some say the larger shot size will do more damage but seems to me that any hole through the head or spine is gonna be fatal no matter whether it is a 4 or a 9 size hole.
As an analogy; even if it were legal, would the lead shooters use 00 buck rather than #5's (even though the 00 would do more damage). Of course not. They use the smaller shot because it meets two criteria: it has the energy to cleanly kill while also giving a clean killing pattern at the range they are willing to shoot.
Seems that the same should go for HTL shooters. Why would anyone not want the most pellets possible in the kill zone as long as those pellets will kill cleanly ?
What got me wondering about this is the fact that last Spring Fed HW 5's seemed to be everywhere while it was hard to get the 7's. Obviously there are plenty of folks buying and shooting the 5's or Fed wouldn't be making them but I just can't understand why there is any demand for them.
It seems to me that people are still applying the old "lead rules" to HTL shells. Think of it this way...IF lead weighed 15 or 18g/cc then we would have ALWAYS been shooting 7's or 9's to kill turkeys and no one would have EVER thought that 4's or 5's were the best for that purpose. It just seems to be hard to throw out the OLD turkey shell logic and move forward to logic that fits the technology that is available now.
Honestly, If you never shoot beyond 30 yds then there is no reason not to shoot lead 6's because you can get a great pattern and still have clean kill energy however that is pretty much the reliable limit for lead 6's (IMO) and every year I have turkeys that only offer me a 40-45 yd shot.
Of course lead 4's and 5's pack more punch than 6's at longer ranges but you are giving up pellet count (range) if you use them so it seems to be a even trade off and in the long run you are still back around the 30yd point for a guaranteed clean kill.
My real question however is why would someone use HTL 5's or 6's? The REAL advantage of spending the extra cash for the HTL shot is only realized if you also go to the smaller shot which then gives you the killing power of larger lead shot along with more range which lead shot doesn't give because of the pattern loss.
Every time I hunt turkeys I only intend to shoot at 30yds or less but I don't always get what I want....especially when turkey hunting....so I shoot TSS 9's :gobble:
Great post and questions, but it would be better to post it in the "reloading" section in my opinion, if you want the specifics.
Simple answer for some states; #7 and smaller shot sizes are illegal to use for turkey.
God Bless,
David B.
From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.
A theory i have for the larger shot being more abundant then the smaller shot is most of the major sporting good chains don't have turkey hunters in charge of ammo ordering. The person in charge of stocking their shelves probably doesn't know better.
We are on the cutting edge of technology now days. I like the hevi-shot and the TSS loads and i did shoot copper #6's back in the day,...........its JUST HARD TO TEACH OLD DOGS NEW TRICKS.
brian
It's hard enough to get people who are used to shooting #4 or #5 Lead to use #6 HTL. Getting them to use #7 or #7.5 HTL is even harder. They are more easily won over to Magnum Blend, since it contains some big pellets as well.
None of my local stores stock #7's. So, I have chosen Magnum Blend over #6 HTL. I'm stocking up on Magnum Blend, to use when I run out of my 2 Ounce #7 and #6 HTL loads.
Quote from: bird on January 08, 2012, 09:45:53 PM
From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.
i agree bird.
i have tested 7's over and over again.sure they will kill birds.but when my back is against the tree i want to know without a doubt that the load of shot that i will be sending him will be MORE than enough to get the job done. that is why i will always use 6's
Quote from: GOLD HUNTER on January 08, 2012, 10:29:36 PM
...its JUST HARD TO TEACH OLD DOGS NEW TRICKS...
This. The typical consumer will likely buy the same size that he's used to purchasing in lead...that is, if he pays the higher price at all. The ammo companies and the retailers know this. We are in the minority.
Quote from: bird on January 08, 2012, 09:45:53 PM
From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.
Why do you believe that? Don't trust the math? Seems pretty clear to me that they DO pack the punch and offer more pellets for a better pattern too. I just don't understand.
Quote from: wmahunter on January 09, 2012, 10:17:29 AM
Quote from: bird on January 08, 2012, 09:45:53 PM
From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.
Why do you believe that? Don't trust the math? Seems pretty clear to me that they DO pack the punch and offer more pellets for a better pattern too. I just don't understand.
After digging out a few low-flying, slow 1090fps H13 #7's from underneath the skin on the OPPOSITE SIDE of a gobbler's breast at 38 non-scientific, non-lasered paces (whatever distance that equates to), I have absolutely no lack of confidence about the amount of punch they carry. :D
Quote from: Spuriosity on January 09, 2012, 10:29:16 AM
HS is a little different case. While I believe HS 7s will kill to 50 yds, IMO that is the outside of their effective range. HS 6s have excess penetration at that distance if you have the pattern.
I deliberatly didn't mention HS because I know it has a huge following on here but I also question how much improvement it really is over lead when it comes to turkeys....maybe gives you 1 shot size difference...certainly doesn't compare to Fed HW or TSS IMO.
Quote from: wmahunter on January 09, 2012, 10:17:29 AM
Quote from: bird on January 08, 2012, 09:45:53 PM
From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.
Why do you believe that? Don't trust the math? Seems pretty clear to me that they DO pack the punch and offer more pellets for a better pattern too. I just don't understand.
Lets put it this way.... I have a gun that patterns exceptionally well with the HS #7's and after my experience with them last year I just don't believe that they pack the punch of the larger pellets. And no it was not the shooter as I am very confident in my shot placements. I myself have rid myself of all HS HTL #7 shells and went to Winchester HD #6's. Lets just say that "Field Experience" is at times much more valuable that Bench Time or any Math that a person can calculate! (http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/birdhunter50613/Guns%20Calls%20Decoys%20Mounts%20and%20More/P1000110.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/birdhunter50613/Guns%20Calls%20Decoys%20Mounts%20and%20More/P1100875.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/birdhunter50613/Guns%20Calls%20Decoys%20Mounts%20and%20More/P1100872.jpg)
In my gun/choke combo, the Mag-Blends pattern almost the same as the #7's, so it, to me, doesn't make any sense to shoot all 7's, when I can get as many hits, and part of them are going to be larger pellets. Without testing numerous chokes, I'm guessing there are many people who find that their gun shoots a better pattern with larger shot. I've never shot #4's in all the years I've been turkey hunting, but one of the best turkey hunters I ever knew, shot #4 lead in his gun exclusively, because they patterned the best from shells available in those days. The same principle is true today, except I think more people are willing to buy numerous brands of shells, and different choke constrictions, than they were 20 years ago.
Bird, You gotta shoot what you feel good with. As far as what went wrong, the devil is in the details and I guess you will never know for sure.
2oz6, I feel confident that my TSS 9's will take down a yote. They pass all the way through every turkey I shoot...head, neck, body, or wherever the pellets hit so I am sure they will penetrate a yote body and skull just fine. Good job on the yotes BTW :happy0064:
Neill, IMO hevi uses fuzzy math and is not very good at measuring shot size so I deliberately left them out of my OP for that reason. I don't feel their shot is in the same league as Fed HW and TSS and comparing them is not apples to apples.
I understand HTL and hevi and HW, but what is TSS 9?
TSS #9 is Tungsten Supershot sized in #9 shot. TSS is 18 grams /Cubic Centimeter in Density. Lead is like 11 g/cc. Shooting TSS #9 is like shooting Lead #4.
Stands for Tungsten Super Shot and it is the heaviest density shot available.
For comparison:
lead shot weighs 10.6 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cc)
hevi shot wieghs 12 g/cc
hevi-13 weighs 13 g/cc
Federal HW weighs 15 g/cc
TSS weighs 18 g/cc or almost twice what lead weighs at the same volume.
Smaller pellet at same weight means more pellets in shell and better pattern.
Since it is smaller diameter it also has less wind resistance and therefore carries downrange speed better than any of the other shot choices.
Well everyone is entitled to have their own opinion on what works and what doesn't. I say shoot what you have the most confidence in. That's all that really matters in the end. We each have our own thoughts on what shot works better than others. There was a time when I swore lead #4's was the cats meow. And I still think it will kill turkeys out to 50yds in your bigger bore guns that shoots them well like the 835. But I also now believe that Hevi-Shot #7's will skin a turkey in its tracks at that same distance. No need to reshow my pictures, I'm sure most have seen them. But shot size is always going to be a big debate subject, and trying to convince others your shot is superior to theirs is really not doing anybody any good. And most aren't going to listen anyway. So keep shooting what you like and what you think works for you.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on January 09, 2012, 04:49:02 PM
Well everyone is entitled to have their own opinion on what works and what doesn't. I say shoot what you have the most confidence in. That's all that really matters in the end. We each have our own thoughts on what shot works better than others. There was a time when I swore lead #4's was the cats meow. And I still think it will kill turkeys out to 50yds in your bigger bore guns that shoots them well like the 835. But I also now believe that Hevi-Shot #7's will skin a turkey in its tracks at that same distance. No need to reshow my pictures, I'm sure most have seen them. But shot size is always going to be a big debate subject, and trying to convince others your shot is superior to theirs is really not doing anybody any good. And most aren't going to listen anyway. So keep shooting what you like and what you think works for you.
bet you never thought you would say those words :TooFunny:
YEP they penetrate a yote body and skull just fine :icon_thumright:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRQ-q89HnBc&feature=g-upl&context=G23afdcbAUAAAAAAALAA
brian
good topic.i think i will stay with the fed 7's in my 10,and 20.thought about the win.6's in my 12.
If I weren't able to load the TSS (which BTW doesn't take any unusual equipment, just a scale and roll crimp tool) I would shoot the Fed HW 7's.
I shoot 8 b/c that was the smallest when I started 2 yrs ago. I am not going to change just b/c 9 is out now. I load 9 for the 20 my son shoots, and get 200 at 40. I have my loads set and will buy shot when I need it!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: sugarray on January 09, 2012, 09:41:09 PM
I shoot 8 b/c that was the smallest when I started 2 yrs ago. I am not going to change just b/c 9 is out now. I load 9 for the 20 my son shoots, and get 200 at 40. I have my loads set and will buy shot when I need it!
Ray just a quick question have you compared the cost per round of your B/C hand loads so we can compare to factory loads. Thanks
I get my best patterns by far with H13 #7. But Magnum Blend throws fine patterns too, is easier to find, and has some large pellets in it. I'll still hunt with the 7's and 6's I have, or maybe even shoot them up trying chokes, who knows? But I'll spend my money stocking up on Magnum Blend, when available.
While the cost may SEEM high, it is still by far the smallest part of my turkey hunting budget.
I actually only shoot 4 or 5 shells a year while hunting and now that I have my gun set up, red dot sighted in, and know what my pattern does, there is really no need to do much pre-season shooting.
Compare that to all the other costs that go into bagging a tom and the shell cost is so small that it barely even shows up on the list.
Hal () is the man to talk to about what components you will need and where to get them.
As far as equipment, you can get an electronic scale for around $30.00 and the only other item you need is a roll crimper which is also about $30.00. There is no need to purchase a shotshell press for the limited number of shells you will be loading for turkeys and IMO the roll crimper works better anyway.
Quote from: link=topic=15485.msg171311#msg171311 date=1326202019
Quote from: mossy835 on January 10, 2012, 12:06:22 AMjust a quick question have you compared the cost per round of your B/C hand loads so we can compare to factory loads.
TSS currently costs $49/lb, and it goes up and down in price. It will cost about $7 a shell at that price level, assuming a 2 oz 12 ga load.
If one was satisfied with getting 40 yd performance similar to the 20 ga Fed HWT 7s, then the price goes down to about $3.75 per shell.
The beautiful thing about rolling your own is you can create what you want, particularly when you're using this shot.
So almost like when I reloaded for rifles it was more about the end result and being consistent then the cost alone.
I agree on cost per round when last year I shot/provided four HM shells for 4 turkeys and could have cared less on the individual shell costs but I did care about the one shot kills back to back for two of us. Thanks Hal for the info.
b/c is just an abbreviation for because. Not the name of my loads.
My loads are 2 oz #8 for the 12 - Green Hornet
1 7/16 oz #9 for the 20 - Yellow Jacket
Cause, man than are an angry swarm and sure to sting!!
Quote from: wmahunter on January 10, 2012, 11:36:02 AM
Hal () is the man to talk to about what components you will need and where to get them.
As far as equipment, you can get an electronic scale for around $30.00 and the only other item you need is a roll crimper which is also about $30.00. There is no need to purchase a shotshell press for the limited number of shells you will be loading for turkeys and IMO the roll crimper works better anyway.
roll crimping is e-zer to master and cheeper to get started if your just getting in to loading shells. its harder to put a good looking 8 star crimp on a load and takes some time to set up press and master it...... i just never got in to rolling my turkey loads, i have had my press for some time now.
brian
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh97/STRIKER1300/oldgobbler3034-1.jpg)
Quote from: 2ounce6s on January 10, 2012, 01:03:05 PM
Quote from: wmahunter on January 10, 2012, 11:36:02 AM
Hal () is the man to talk to about what components you will need and where to get them.
As far as equipment, you can get an electronic scale for around $30.00 and the only other item you need is a roll crimper which is also about $30.00. There is no need to purchase a shotshell press for the limited number of shells you will be loading for turkeys and IMO the roll crimper works better anyway.
So $60 for scale and crimper.
$49 per lb of TSS shot (assuming you can't buy smaller quantities)
So we are at $110 now.
How much for shells, wads, primers?
How many loads roughly do you fire to determine which you are going to use?
To get started, I purchased $163.00 total worth of components and that included enough shot (1 lb) to load 11 20g shells and enough of the other components to load at least 100 and some of the components came in 250 quantities so most of this will last me for years and years. This is in addition to the $60 discussed earlier.
The only thing I will need to replenish each year would be shot. (actually, I just purchased 5 lb so I won't need to get any more of that in the near future either)
Quote from: 2ounce6s on January 11, 2012, 11:21:32 AM
So $270 roughly to be comfortably set up.
You ain't helping me much to build my case for this with the Wife.
:TooFunny:
Step #1: Buy the equipment first. Wait until the dust settles to proceed to step #2.
Step #2: Buy the shot.
Quote from: 2ounce6s on January 11, 2012, 11:21:32 AM
So $270 roughly to be comfortably set up.
You ain't helping me much to build my case for this with the Wife.
Forgiveness is better than permission! :TooFunny:
Quote from: sugarray on January 10, 2012, 12:59:45 PM
b/c is just an abbreviation for because. Not the name of my loads.
My loads are 2 oz #8 for the 12 - Green Hornet
1 7/16 oz #9 for the 20 - Yellow Jacket
Cause, man than are an angry swarm and sure to sting!!
Great names!
Quote from: VAHUNTER on January 09, 2012, 07:02:05 AM
Quote from: bird on January 08, 2012, 09:45:53 PM
From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.
i agree bird.
i have tested 7's over and over again.sure they will kill birds.but when my back is against the tree i want to know without a doubt that the load of shot that i will be sending him will be MORE than enough to get the job done. that is why i will always use 6's
x3- At least with Hevi shot. I haven't tried the federals though.
Clint
Its instering how peoples experience's differ. I shot a mallard this morning, in a jump shot, in the back at 30 yds. There was a #6 hd visible in the breast, when cleaned. Will I use HS #7 for turkeys NO!!!!!