This deer was 1.5 years old. He was propbably concieved during our first rut which is in mid November. This means he droped in late May or early June. He had optimal nutrition with a highly cared for National Forest and very good flower beds in a rich part of town. This was his first set of antlers. This deer is a great example of why Antler Restrictions dont work. He would have been harvested in the fall (and if we had AR's) he would have been shot. He is they type of deer that you would want to let walk to get some age.
(http://www.bayoubucks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36130&d=1315511608)
(http://www.bayoubucks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36131&d=1315511922)
Dang we all were wrong. :o
Definitely a good 1.5, but you are very wrong on ARs not working. They work extremely well when properly used. The key word being properly. Good ARs are such that deem a certain main beam length, IE: one 18" main beam for instance. It works as it allows you to take culls and a given age class is protected. People argue round and round including state bios, but I'm telling you, when you've seen it in place it flat works for a fact. You will eliminate 1.5 and most 2.5yo kills here in the South. The main gripe seems to be about culls, but I can tell you first hand that most culls will hit the length at 3.5, an age they must get to IMO to be considered a true cull. Those that are serious about mature deer will not shoot the deer that meet the 18, they'll pass for older bucks. Those clubs are where you find consistant year after year success on mature deer.
Then, you have the total BS some Bios pitch about overall reduction of deer quality throughout a herd. Total BS, I hunt QDM land and know places that have done this for many years and trust me, they have gotten much better. The key to avoiding stunted growth lies with population, you MUST keep the does in check. The best place I hunt allows one buck, but you get multi doe tags.
I know far too many people that have AR programs that have dramatically improved the quality of their bucks in years since they were put in place. I hunt an area that's managed for older bucks and can tell you first hand ARs can work wonders. I can also tell you that people that gripe the most quickly shut their mouths after a few years when they start killing nice deer instead of the dinks they've shot for decades. That one always cracks me up.
The folks here in LA would be pissed if you put real ARs in place, state wide, but as I mentioned, they WILL shut up when they see the results. If you don't believe me, just go out and find the best clubs even here in LA and see what their rules are, yep, they have ARs in place and the results speak for themselves. No disrespect to anyone, but you must see it work to realize it is golden.
There's also the crowd that doesn't want anyone to tell them what bucks they can legally shoot. Many of those hunters call themselves meat hunters, yet most of them will not shoot a doe for some odd reason. I've killed somewhere close to 200 deer and can tell you no matter where I've hunted, does were always much easier to kill and much more plentiful. Shoot a doe if you're a meat hunter. Nearly every place I've hunted in the US has had an issue with doe population, that's another very important key to QDM. It burns me up when I run into guys that will not shoot a doe, but they'll drop the hammer on every little dink 1.5yo they see. Shoot a doe and do other hunters a favor. I'd much rather proudly display a doe on the skinning rack than a 1.5yo buck.
Average looking 1.5 up here in Northern WI I've seen them bigger.
To bad he didn't make it
Neal
Reloader I will agree that on well managed land where folks know how to age deer on the hoof they work. My point is that a state wide blanket AR does not work. Sure the deer get older and bigger. But the majority of hunters cannot tell the difference between a 1.5 year old 8 point and a 3.5 yr old 8 point. That was the purpose of this thread. Joe Blow Deer Hunter would have shot this one because he could not shoot the spike that came out before him. There by removing the quality deer and letting the poor quality move up.
Quote from: neal on September 09, 2011, 10:56:09 AM
Average looking 1.5 up here in Northern WI I've seen them bigger.
To bad he didn't make it
Neal
Yup,,I live in Illinois...He's a nice 1 1/2 deer but.. I also have seen a few bigger.
i need to see his coppers to tell.i wished they would go to 4 points per side here in my county
(http://www.bayoubucks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36157&d=1315580422)
They wouldn't be able to shoot that one legally with proper ARs. Joe Blow deer hunter will learn real quick what it takes to be legal. Look at TX's 13" spread rule in Eastern COs. While not the best AR IMO, the guys that hunt in those areas say it has helped considerably. The "Joe Blow" guys learn not to shoot unless the deer in unquestionably big enough.
Keep it like it is and we'll continue to have some of the poorest quality overall to our neighboring states. The guys I've talked to in MS, even in the poorer quality hills areas, are loving the new rules and wishing they would up the measure requirments. One of my bud's in North MS had his best year yet last year. I've heard the same stories from ETX guys.
Another year of seeing truck loads of spikes, 4pts, and 6pts running up and down the hwys for us La folks. One day LAWFD will learn. I do admit going to 3 buck tags was a descent move, but it's not helping much as you still have thousands of hunters placing those 3 tags on 1.5s. A move to 2 buck tags and 4 doe tags would help much more. Later moving to ARs would put us where we need to be for a fact. It's funny that the best states usually allow one tag :D What were those WFDs thinking! And folks wonder why it's so hard to draw there :D
Have a good one,
Reloader
Quote from: LaBiologist on September 09, 2011, 11:53:54 AM
Reloader I will agree that on well managed land where folks know how to age deer on the hoof they work. My point is that a state wide blanket AR does not work. Sure the deer get older and bigger. But the majority of hunters cannot tell the difference between a 1.5 year old 8 point and a 3.5 yr old 8 point. That was the purpose of this thread. Joe Blow Deer Hunter would have shot this one because he could not shoot the spike that came out before him. There by removing the quality deer and letting the poor quality move up.
It's all on the state and the biologists.
Why should deer hunters in a respective state receive 3 buck tags? Why not divide them accordingly per weapon. Or better yet
why not only allow 1 buck tag per hunter per season. Sure, that's a great young buck, and to the hunter, maybe it was a trophy, but why not prevent that same hunter from being able to continue the same behavior another time or two throughout the rest of his season?
AR's without additional stipulations other than "the point rule" promote high grading and Joe Blow deer hunter is typically not educated in general, let alone educated on how to age a whitetail on the hoof based on physical features.
Furthermore, most research indicates that a spike buck is typically the product of a late breeding. Consequently, his antlers are deprived of growth due to his body's need to obtain calories before facing his first winter. Additionally, research also indicates that a 1.5 year old spike will catch up to his peers in antler growth by 4.5. Although a 1.5 year old spike is not likely to produce a 170-200" rack, a spike is very capable of growing into an animal with impressive headgear. Why not advocate letting both bucks pass in hopes of shooting a doe?
It's all too sad that that deer was harvested at 1.5 but this situation is duplicated hundreds of thousands of times each season and the game departments promote it with their absurd, liberal bag limits.
Quote from: Reloader on September 09, 2011, 10:53:23 AM
Definitely a good 1.5, but you are very wrong on ARs not working. They work extremely well when properly used. The key word being properly. Good ARs are such that deem a certain main beam length, IE: one 18" main beam for instance. It works as it allows you to take culls and a given age class is protected. People argue round and round including state bios, but I'm telling you, when you've seen it in place it flat works for a fact. You will eliminate 1.5 and most 2.5yo kills here in the South. The main gripe seems to be about culls, but I can tell you first hand that most culls will hit the length at 3.5, an age they must get to IMO to be considered a true cull. Those that are serious about mature deer will not shoot the deer that meet the 18, they'll pass for older bucks. Those clubs are where you find consistant year after year success on mature deer.
Then, you have the total BS some Bios pitch about overall reduction of deer quality throughout a herd. Total BS, I hunt QDM land and know places that have done this for many years and trust me, they have gotten much better. The key to avoiding stunted growth lies with population, you MUST keep the does in check. The best place I hunt allows one buck, but you get multi doe tags.
I know far too many people that have AR programs that have dramatically improved the quality of their bucks in years since they were put in place. I hunt an area that's managed for older bucks and can tell you first hand ARs can work wonders. I can also tell you that people that gripe the most quickly shut their mouths after a few years when they start killing nice deer instead of the dinks they've shot for decades. That one always cracks me up.
The folks here in LA would be pissed if you put real ARs in place, state wide, but as I mentioned, they WILL shut up when they see the results. If you don't believe me, just go out and find the best clubs even here in LA and see what their rules are, yep, they have ARs in place and the results speak for themselves. No disrespect to anyone, but you must see it work to realize it is golden.
There's also the crowd that doesn't want anyone to tell them what bucks they can legally shoot. Many of those hunters call themselves meat hunters, yet most of them will not shoot a doe for some odd reason. I've killed somewhere close to 200 deer and can tell you no matter where I've hunted, does were always much easier to kill and much more plentiful. Shoot a doe if you're a meat hunter. Nearly every place I've hunted in the US has had an issue with doe population, that's another very important key to QDM. It burns me up when I run into guys that will not shoot a doe, but they'll drop the hammer on every little dink 1.5yo they see. Shoot a doe and do other hunters a favor. I'd much rather proudly display a doe on the skinning rack than a 1.5yo buck.
I have to agree with LA on many aspects of this one. While I agree PROPER ARs will benefit any area but you also have to add in appropriate nutritional requirements for deer. Some areas just are not going to produce monsters going above 150 on any kind of regular basis because of habitat. I hunt in a swamp often and while it produces some big bucks because there are no crop fields to feed them within several miles these deer while they may grow big their head gear is often smalller. My brother a few years ago shot an 8 pt that field dressed 195lbs so live weight was probably 250+ and his rack was a probably only 125-140 inch range. I cant give an exact measurement because the taxidermist went out of business and we never got his mount for it. This buck was a monster for the area.
ARS work on a sliding scale based on how much you can control. If you only control the harvest of deer based on ARs you will get modest results however if you can control the harvest,nutritional intake, culling and doe population you can get extraordinary results. Clubs can do this but states cannot.
I agree with you about some of the meat hunters being hypocrites however I am a meat hunter largely and the first doe I cna legally shoot is dead, I often probably miss out on shooting bucks because I dont let does pass. It matters not to me because I enjoy venison.
Lastly statewide ARs are just setting up trophy hunting mentality on the state levels, it gives reign to the states to setup regulations to limit the in state hunters largely to get bigger bucks so they can sell that 1 treasured out of state tag to a guy who will pay more $$$$$ for that same tag a resident hunter would probably have filled instead.
The states will use whatever means or excuse to get this going. Michigan a few years ago passed regulations to limit the second buck harvest 2 a buck with 4 points on one side, this has already shown some increases and now in the UP and select Lower areas you have to shoot a buck with 3 pts on one side or more for the first deer and 4 pts on the second deer. I think it will be state wide in 5 years or less. As you have stated this doesnt prevent shooting of younger bucks because 1.5s can easily be that size so this is one example of poor QDM done by a state and it will negatively affect hunting here IMO
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on September 10, 2011, 08:09:09 AM
Quote from: LaBiologist on September 09, 2011, 11:53:54 AM
Reloader I will agree that on well managed land where folks know how to age deer on the hoof they work. My point is that a state wide blanket AR does not work. Sure the deer get older and bigger. But the majority of hunters cannot tell the difference between a 1.5 year old 8 point and a 3.5 yr old 8 point. That was the purpose of this thread. Joe Blow Deer Hunter would have shot this one because he could not shoot the spike that came out before him. There by removing the quality deer and letting the poor quality move up.
It's all on the state and the biologists.
Why should deer hunters in a respective state receive 3 buck tags? Why not divide them accordingly per weapon. Or better yet
why not only allow 1 buck tag per hunter per season.
VTS - as you know, here in MD we can shoot 6 bucks per season. I think it is crazy. I think it needs to be cut back to 2, but not a fan of the per weapon thing. I don't gun hunt much and would prefer to take them with a bow. DE has it about right. You get no buck tags with your license. You can buy 2 and one of them is a 'Quality buck' tag.
[/quote]VTS - as you know, here in MD we can shoot 6 bucks per season. I think it is crazy. I think it needs to be cut back to 2, but not a fan of the per weapon thing. I don't gun hunt much and would prefer to take them with a bow. DE has it about right. You get no buck tags with your license. You can buy 2 and one of them is a 'Quality buck' tag.
[/quote]
MD,
I just relinquished my 400 acre lease in Queen Anne's county not too far from the Delaware line. The property had a 50/50 mixture of timber and agriculture but we did not have like minded neighbors from a management perspective.
It's amazing to see what type of quality animals the Eastern Shore produces when co-operative management ventures are implemented and followed. Many of the guys I know and some I hunt with over there are just looking to shoot 1 buck per year.... that is one, very large, mature buck.
The thing that really saves Maryland is the limited firearms hunting. If they could get away from the 6 bucks per year rule you'd truly see the Eastern Shore and other parts of Maryland blow into Little Iowa.
In states with liberal buck bag limits where the seasons are primarily comprised of firearms hunting, it's really, really difficult for a trophy hunter to achieve his desired results. This will forever be my gripe with the biologists and game departments. Most could careless about the trophy hunter and always cater to the needs of the good ole boy, "I want to shoot every brown animal with antlers", gun-hunting, bullet slingers. Too bad those same guys aren't the ones killing all the does and actually making contributions to herd management. :TrainWreck1:
I believe this deer was hit by a car guys,no hunter took this deer.
Quote from: OLE RASPY on September 09, 2011, 09:08:31 AM
Dang we all were wrong. :o
You must have a mouse in your pocket. LOL! That's what I said he was.
But I was going off the 2nd picture and the body structure from the abdomen to the rear legs and how they tie in as far as stature of the deer to base my decision. If you do that, you can tell it's a young deer. That will work sometimes even though the deer looked older in the face. The teeth will tell the real tale.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on September 10, 2011, 01:26:10 PM
Quote from: OLE RASPY on September 09, 2011, 09:08:31 AM
Dang we all were wrong. :o
You must have a mouse in your pocket. LOL! That's what I said he was.
Wheres your post stating you said he was 1.5 years old.
Quote from: OLE RASPY on September 10, 2011, 01:38:24 PM
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on September 10, 2011, 01:26:10 PM
Quote from: OLE RASPY on September 09, 2011, 09:08:31 AM
Dang we all were wrong. :o
You must have a mouse in your pocket. LOL! That's what I said he was.
Wheres your post stating you said he was 1.5 years old.
I didn't post I just voted 1.5yrs. Now you can ask Shannon or Annie if you like.
And I'll put my 2 cents in about what will work statewide if states would in fact do it. Reloader is right on what he said by the way. You could go 2 ways and both would be way better than most states have. But you will have to enforce each no matter what system your state would choose. Either go with a minimum of 4pts on one side or go with a minimum outside spread of say 14" or more. Either will beat what most states now have in place and make for better and bigger trophy bucks.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on September 10, 2011, 01:40:52 PM
Quote from: OLE RASPY on September 10, 2011, 01:38:24 PM
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on September 10, 2011, 01:26:10 PM
Quote from: OLE RASPY on September 09, 2011, 09:08:31 AM
Dang we all were wrong. :o
You must have a mouse in your pocket. LOL! That's what I said he was.
Wheres your post stating you said he was 1.5 years old.
I didn't post I just voted 1.5yrs. Now you can ask Shannon or Annie if you like.
I dont have to ask i believe u i was just wanting to know where your post was stating that but i gotcha now.Good job guessing.Oh by the way i found that mouse. ;)
Thanks.
Antler restrictions have many pros and cons. I seen a hunting camp in PA fold because of AR and over harvest of does. Gary Alt decided and sold the PA commission on a plan to include a dramatic increase in doe harvest along with an antler restriction. He basically told the hunting populous of PA that his plan would turn PA into another Iowa/Illinois with trophy bucks at every turn. It didn't happen, at least in several areas. In Forrest Co. PA as of last year 2010, a resident retired Postal Inspector hunted every day the 1st week from sunrise to sunset. He saw 4 deer, none antlered. He heard less than 6 shots opening day were prior to Alt plan you couldn't count the number in the 1st hour.
Don't get me wrong, I'm totally in favor of antler restrictions BUT it cannot be done with a sweeping hand state wide. It has to be implemented wisely with proper doe management based on local deer populations which is very difficult to manage. You also have to sell the plan to the hunters so you have compliance, which in the areas I hunted in PA, the Game Commission did not. New York is trying small areas instead of state wide regs. I would like to see NY go to one buck tag only, whether it's a button buck or a trophy. This, IMO, would make the hunters that wanted a rack slow down on the trigger with their doe permit and in theory reduce the numer of button bucks tagged on antlerless permits but at the same time still not legislate what is a trophy to each individual. My two cents and I'm expecting to get hammered.
CB
Doe restrictions can be managed as well. But doe restrictions have very little to do with big bucks other than the fact that they carry on the species. But if we all want more bigger bucks to shoot at rather than all the 6 month spike or 1.5 or 2.5yr old deer getting killed before they ever have time to grow up to a trophy size buck, implementing what I stated above would see a huge increase in trophy bucks.