me and my buddy got to talking about turkey guns, chokes and ammo today. he is convinced that shooting different brands of ammo thru his gun produces a different POI. no changes in the gun just different brands of ammo. I've shot different brands of ammo thru the same gun and didn't notice any big difference but, I have noticed a difference in POI when changing choke tubes. interested in what others have to add on the topic.
I shot some new shells (EPIC) through my 870 yesterday and they hit about 3" higher and 2" left of my hand loads, but very similar patterns. So, yes, I've seen a difference. Not a huge difference, but enough of one to miss a bird at close range.
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A gun I have that shoots most loads slightly to the right will shoot reloads loaded with Unique powder to the left, no matter the shot charge in them
Shot 3 different loads the other day at 40, all had a different impact, though all would have killed!
I had a TC Encore that would shoot different POI with different type/brand of shells. Sitghts not moved and same choke. Some of the differences were pretty significant. I've had other guns that weren't so eratic with different shells, but still some difference.
Very likely to be an impact shift one load to another
Since you brought it up.
I laugh at the guys sighting their gun in with low brass and calling it good. Getting it close is one thing, but finish it by checking your hunting load!
Different loads have different POI. You shoot them Apples to Apples on paper and you will see.
Kill, yes. Shift, yes. But why go through all the trouble to shoot something that does well and limit it's abilities by you being tight.
Test what you are hunting with!
Common that all loads will shoot slightly different. The newer chokes/loads make it more obvious.
I always do a final check with any new load/brand at 40 just to satisfy my mind but that wasn't always the case. when I was a boy I shot whatever my dad brought in from the company store and was happy to get them and killed loads of squirrel and rabbit just fine BUT, todays new guns, chokes and loads are waaay different. I agree that shooting low brass close in and calling it good is a bad mistake and will more than likely cause a missed or crippled bird.
I have always, when zeroing my sight, shot with light loads to get close and finish the process with my hunting loads. After that I check my zero each year with a light load and then double check it with a hunting load. They hold their zero well year after year, but, it still must be confirmed each year and if I bump it, I confirm the zero before I go out again.
After dialing in your hunting load shoot a target load up close and save the target or take a picture, then you can confirm sights with the same targets loads, one box will last a while!
Ok, someone needs to explain the technical details about a "different POI" to me as I don't understand how it is scientifically possible. Yes, absolutely, different shells with different chokes provides different pattern density. No doubt there. But the POI is dictated by physical characteristics of the gun which remain constant between different shells. If this is true can someone educate me on the science behind it? The only factor I can think of is velocity vs gravity. Perhaps that is where the answer lies? In my mind this would only be a concern for long distances.
Quote from: Dtrkyman on March 23, 2025, 11:38:49 PMAfter dialing in your hunting load shoot a target load up close and save the target or take a picture, then you can confirm sights with the same targets loads, one box will last a while!
Solid advice! I do the same.
The ones that drive me nuts the most is winchester lb. They seem to have a mind of their own. I use lead in my 835 12 and tss in my 20.
Quote from: Timmer on March 24, 2025, 09:31:49 AMOk, someone needs to explain the technical details about a "different POI" to me as I don't understand how it is scientifically possible. Yes, absolutely, different shells with different chokes provides different pattern density. No doubt there. But the POI is dictated by physical characteristics of the gun which remain constant between different shells. If this is true can someone educate me on the science behind it? The only factor I can think of is velocity vs gravity. Perhaps that is where the answer lies? In my mind this would only be a concern for long distances.
I have to admit that I think along the same lines. I, too, would be interested in hearing the science behind a change in point of impact when the barrel of the gun remains stationary. Now, I could see a pattern being higher or lower due to variations in the shell (as you state...velocity, gravity, etc.) but I have a hard time accepting that there would be any horizontal variation other than in the pattern and density thereof.
Now, I suppose variations in choke alignment to the barrel (in the instance of someone changing chokes) could explain a horizontal variation. Perhaps that is what is happening... ??? ::)
There is no doubt that different loads have different POI
The POI difference between TSS and conventional load on one of my guns is 8 inches at 40.
Different lots of the same shells will be different too. I like to buy a bunch of whatever I figure out works
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Quote from: xarcher on March 25, 2025, 09:11:48 AMThe POI difference between TSS and conventional load on one of my guns is 8 inches at 40.
no doubt! my preferred tss load in 12 ga and 12 ga longbeard xr's have about a foot difference in poi at 40 yards. couple that with nerves and it is a clean miss if you don't know how your gun shoots different loads
Quote from: bwhana on March 24, 2025, 10:36:55 AMQuote from: Dtrkyman on March 23, 2025, 11:38:49 PMAfter dialing in your hunting load shoot a target load up close and save the target or take a picture, then you can confirm sights with the same targets loads, one box will last a while!
Solid advice! I do the same.
As previously mentioned pay attention to lot numbers on your field loads and TSS.
Quote from: King Cobra on March 26, 2025, 06:03:07 AMQuote from: bwhana on March 24, 2025, 10:36:55 AMQuote from: Dtrkyman on March 23, 2025, 11:38:49 PMAfter dialing in your hunting load shoot a target load up close and save the target or take a picture, then you can confirm sights with the same targets loads, one box will last a while!
Solid advice! I do the same.
Amen here Ken, lot differences from box to box definitely occurQuote from: King Cobra on March 26, 2025, 06:03:07 AMQuote from: bwhana on March 24, 2025, 10:36:55 AMQuote from: Dtrkyman on March 23, 2025, 11:38:49 PMAfter dialing in your hunting load shoot a target load up close and save the target or take a picture, then you can confirm sights with the same targets loads, one box will last a while!
Solid advice! I do the same.
As previously mentioned pay attention to lot numbers on your field loads and TSS.
As previously mentioned pay attention to lot numbers on your field loads and TSS.
Great advice here..
Quote from: xarcher on March 25, 2025, 09:11:48 AMThe POI difference between TSS and conventional load on one of my guns is 8 inches at 40.
Vertical or horizontal? Consistent or variable between shots?
I can entertain that a heavier projectile will drop more quickly, but I cannot wrap my head around a horizontal POI difference... Some crazy wad that makes the shot shoot sideways???
I personally have never had 8" either direction. But 2-3" Horizontal absolutely.
Vertical can be a good amount depending on distance.
Depends....
I've been told the ultra tight chokes as the payloads reach a condition of being "over choked" they start to "shift" on POI
I grew up in a machinist shop and I look at shotgun barrels with some skeptical eyes ....I have seen a buddy's Winchester pump that the chokes were clearly 10 thousands off center to the interior bore , and let me tell you it shot 1 foot to the left at 40 yards ...I could imagine that various velocity and payload offerings would alter how that gun hit
I also have a remington sp10 and that choke to bore alignment is off by 3 thousands, causing thr gun to be off 3 inches at 40 ....my relationship with that firearm is a love hate scenario
I would closely examine the choke alignment on your shotgun , if that isn't the culprit...possibly the choke is super tight ?
Shannon
Quote from: Old Gobbler on March 29, 2025, 09:01:47 AMDepends....
I've been told the ultra tight chokes as the payloads reach a condition of being "over choked" they start to "shift" on POI
I grew up in a machinist shop and I look at shotgun barrels with some skeptical eyes ....I have seen a buddy's Winchester pump that the chokes were clearly 10 thousands off center to the interior bore , and let me tell you it shot 1 foot to the left at 40 yards ...I could imagine that various velocity and payload offerings would alter how that gun hit
I also have a remington sp10 and that choke to bore alignment is off by 3 thousands, causing thr gun to be off 3 inches at 40 ....my relationship with that firearm is a love hate scenario
I would closely examine the choke alignment on your shotgun , if that isn't the culprit...possibly the choke is super tight ?
Shannon
Shannon, If alinememt if off can the barrel be corrected?
Quote from: Old Gobbler on March 29, 2025, 09:01:47 AMDepends....
I've been told the ultra tight chokes as the payloads reach a condition of being "over choked" they start to "shift" on POI
I grew up in a machinist shop and I look at shotgun barrels with some skeptical eyes ....I have seen a buddy's Winchester pump that the chokes were clearly 10 thousands off center to the interior bore , and let me tell you it shot 1 foot to the left at 40 yards ...I could imagine that various velocity and payload offerings would alter how that gun hit
I also have a remington sp10 and that choke to bore alignment is off by 3 thousands, causing thr gun to be off 3 inches at 40 ....my relationship with that firearm is a love hate scenario
I would closely examine the choke alignment on your shotgun , if that isn't the culprit...possibly the choke is super tight ?
Shannon
Shannon Thank you for the reply.
My take-away from your reply is that due to being harder and heavier, that these new dense shot materials are more sensitive to small imperfections in bore to choke alignment? Due to being softer/more malleable, that lead is going to be less sensitive to a small alignment difference of bore to choke than TSS? (I have certainly seen that the harder metals are more sensitive to constriction changes in choking than is lead)
Which would imply to me, that slightly tightening or loosening a choke could potentially create a shift in POI? (I know when waterfowling, I am constantly hand-tightening my choke as it comes loose from shooting). So 1/4 turn of a choke would make the pattern shift from say left to up?
thanks everybody for all the info and opinions. I did a lot of shooting yesterday just to see for myself. shooting my 870 21" 20ga and my 301 Stevens compact with the 22' barrel with 3" TSS #9's both a .568 choke. I had 4 different brands, 2 over-the-counter 1.5oz. One was 1100fps and the other was 1200fps. and two different custom shop loads both 1200fps. the two custom and the over-the-counter 1100fps hit pretty much dead on with each other. the over-the-counter 1200fps hit 4"s (give or take an inch) low and the funny thing, the shell that constantly hit low produced the tighter patterns by several more pellets in the 10 ring. all shots were at 40yds.
Quote from: Old Timer on March 30, 2025, 01:30:09 PMQuote from: Old Gobbler on March 29, 2025, 09:01:47 AMDepends....
I've been told the ultra tight chokes as the payloads reach a condition of being "over choked" they start to "shift" on POI
I grew up in a machinist shop and I look at shotgun barrels with some skeptical eyes ....I have seen a buddy's Winchester pump that the chokes were clearly 10 thousands off center to the interior bore , and let me tell you it shot 1 foot to the left at 40 yards ...I could imagine that various velocity and payload offerings would alter how that gun hit
I also have a remington sp10 and that choke to bore alignment is off by 3 thousands, causing thr gun to be off 3 inches at 40 ....my relationship with that firearm is a love hate scenario
I would closely examine the choke alignment on your shotgun , if that isn't the culprit...possibly the choke is super tight ?
Shannon
Shannon, If alinememt if off can the barrel be corrected?
only with sights .
I always shoot 1.7/8 oz lead bbs or 2s.
Variables cause variations, pretty self explanatory. Different chokes, shot size/material and velocity all change the performance of your pattern. Does it make sense that a 2 oz load of #5 lead traveling at 1100 fps out of a .665 choke would shoot the same POI as a 2.25 oz load of #9 TSS at 1050 fps through a .675 choke? Every aspect is different. I want the best pattern at my hunting yardage as possible. I do a lot of pattern work to get where I want to be. In general, I start my loads at 1200 fps and adjust from there. That usually means lighter payloads generally. I shoot a 28, so 1.25 loads at 1180 shoot fabulous out of my set up. It's all about the performance and compatability for your set up. Do your homework and kill your animals cleanly, whatever does it for you consistantly is the right load for yoy. Have fun with the process and God Bless. Z