New court ruling says corner crossings are legal in 6 states!
https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/appeals-court-rules-corner-crossing-legal/
Win for sportsman
Glad to see that ruling! Hopefully that'll set the standard for other courts to follow in other states this needs to happen in
As long as there's strong legal recourse for the property owner if randos go on their property, damage, or litter while "corner crossing" it seems ok. Without private property rights we've got nothing, so I'm hesitant to call this some big win.
Hopefully the guys can now sue the landowner for harassment! I see a lot of confrontations at corners this fall!
Has nothing to do with private property rights, has to do with land owners thinking they can buy property and get sole rights to public property, they advertise it when it is for sale, x amount of acre ranch with exclusive access to public property, see it all the time, the sellers basically include it in the value of the land.
Quote from: Dtrkyman on March 20, 2025, 12:26:37 PMHas nothing to do with private property rights, has to do with land owners thinking they can buy property and get sole rights to public property...
Absolutely! Infringement of property rights goes both ways. Just as there are laws that protect private property rights, the same should apply to public property rights. The fact that it took so long for ruling to be finalized is just a testament to how long the public has been getting the shaft when it comes to this sort of thing.
A hundred or more years of landowners claiming they owned the "air space" over these corners?! What a friggin' joke! This ruling should have happened decades ago! :angry9:
Quote from: Dtrkyman on March 20, 2025, 12:26:37 PMHopefully the guys can now sue the landowner for harassment! I see a lot of confrontations at corners this fall!
Has nothing to do with private property rights, has to do with land owners thinking they can buy property and get sole rights to public property, they advertise it when it is for sale, x amount of acre ranch with exclusive access to public property, see it all the time, the sellers basically include it in the value of the land.
Here is part of a recent listing for the Pitchfork Ranch that is for sale in Wyoming....
The ranch, at $67 million and 96,000 acres, is the most expensive listing in the state right now, Anson said, and the historic property has already attracted interested buyers.
The acreage includes 13,886 deeded acres on the ranch, which are dispersed with state and BLM leased acreage. The land also connects to two Forest Service permits that amount to 44,984 acres. State land makes up 31,600 acres, and BLM ground is the remaining 5,645 acres.
Of the 96,000 acres, 82,114 is public land that the public can't access.
Quote from: OJR on March 20, 2025, 01:54:01 PMOf the 96,000 acres, 82,114 is public land that the public can't access.
Yep, it is a sore spot for many of us. Around here, some of us have advocated for years that any public land that is not accessible to the public is automatically closed to all access by anybody...or at least all hunting. That would maybe stop some of that crap. ...So far, nobody is listening. I wonder why? (Not really, I already know why) ::)
The lack of access to millions of acres of BLM land has been a national
disgrace.
Is this mostly a western issue. I don't know of any conflicts like this in Ohio, or at least I have never encountered them. I know back in the 80s Ohio DNR bought up some land parcels that were land locked, but I believe they bought right-of-ways or easements into them too. I know they did for some, because I was involved with it. I also encountered a farmer who tried to buffalo hunters accessing one because the easement was through his pasture. It didn't take long to straighten that out either. That real estate add is amazing, they are listing land they don't even own. I confess to being blind to this, but I agree it robbery from the public. Someone is getting paid somewhere....
Odds are Iron Bar will appeal, if they haven't already. There is plenty on western hunter chatter about this on the Rokslide forum conservation page.
Hopefully it's a win for public access. Probably a long row to hoe though.
Quote from: 10th Legionaire on March 20, 2025, 04:05:26 PMOdds are Iron Bar will appeal, if they haven't already. There is plenty on western hunter chatter about this on the Rokslide forum conservation page.
Hopefully it's a win for public access. Probably a long row to hoe though.
This was the latest round of appeals. If they appeal any further it becomes a Supreme Court issue, the way I understand it. If the supreme court follows all the other rulings, well then, we're all in great shape.
Just as long as everybody knows to cross at the corner marker. Don't cross where onx says is the corner, don't cross "kind of close". Cross right at the marker.
In my younger days I would have brought a pole vault to hunt out here!
Quote from: POk3s on March 20, 2025, 06:56:33 PMQuote from: 10th Legionaire on March 20, 2025, 04:05:26 PMOdds are Iron Bar will appeal, if they haven't already. There is plenty on western hunter chatter about this on the Rokslide forum conservation page.
Hopefully it's a win for public access. Probably a long row to hoe though.
This was the latest round of appeals. If they appeal any further it becomes a Supreme Court issue, the way I understand it. If the supreme court follows all the other rulings, well then, we're all in great shape.
Just as long as everybody knows to cross at the corner marker. Don't cross where onx says is the corner, don't cross "kind of close". Cross right at the marker.
Regarding the rulings, from what I understand you are correct. I also "read on the internet" that if they haven't already majority of the Supreme Court agrees with the lower court they may not even hear it. So the issue may be decided but IDK?
Quote from: POk3s on March 20, 2025, 06:56:33 PMJust as long as everybody knows to cross at the corner marker. Don't cross where onx says is the corner, don't cross "kind of close". Cross right at the marker.
And where might that be. Some may be visible/obvious but I would think most aren't. Then you have to walk around looking for it. Then you have to be careful not to step on the private that you don't quite know where it is at. Fence (if there is one) is just a fence, not a marker.
If you can't find a marker, and feel onx isn't good enough
Tell me how the land owner can be so precise on where his line is also??? Guess what, HE CANT.
Put forth a good effort using the maps available, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
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I have already had the experience of a landowner (actually a landowner/outfitter) here removing the benchmark post at one location. Don't put it past landowners to start doing that in other places if they haven't already. Unless there are significant deterrents put in place (large fines, loss of public land grazing leases, etc.), mark my words, removal of those benchmarks at these corners will be the next step landowners take to keep the public out. :angry9:
I guided a ranch for deer and elk, how do suppose you post 200k plus acres? Posted along public roads and locals remove the signs, catch poachers, call warden they play dumb and get away with it, have seen it more than once!
Half of dozen guides watched 3 guys shoot an elk from their truck over the roof while moving! We blocked them in and called the sheriff and warden, told us we could not keep them there! They stayed anyway, kept their mouths shut and drove away!
Laws make a difference.
Many states have programs to increase access for hunters. In Idaho it's Access Yes!, in Montana it's Block Management Areas. While these largely pay landowners for public to access private lands, maybe some of that funding could be directed towards identifying and marking critical corners for hunters to access the larger or more desirable public lands currently inaccessible?
As mentioned earlier, property rights is absolutely a two-way street and the laws should be upheld for both. And we should be respecting both. I'm very much in favor of this court decision, but maybe in order for this to work better the state should figure out a way to make those prioritized corners easy to identify and allow folks to 'do the right thing' with ease and confidence.
That is, of course, once this decision applies to those states.
Quote from: sasquatch1 on March 20, 2025, 08:46:52 PMIf you can't find a marker, and feel onx isn't good enough
Tell me how the land owner can be so precise on where his line is also??? Guess what, HE CANT.
Put forth a good effort using the maps available, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Bingo. In the past landowners qualified their claim that you were in their "airspace" as you crossed the corner. That has now been nullified. So...if there's a marked corner, who's to say it's not the "real" corner...the rancher or whom? Ranchers erecting a fence at the corner so you can't cross it? Nope...illegal, that's blocking access.
I bow hunted elk in CO for a number of years. Encountered this exact scenario whereas we didn't dare crossing a corner to get at some very excellent habitat. Not an issue now.
Without knowing for sure I imagine there are a number of private landowners, out west particularly, whose value of their property will drop somewhat. Why? Because they have, say, 3K acres but "private" access to quite a few thousand acres more. Gone.
Quote from: Treerooster on March 20, 2025, 08:42:44 PMQuote from: POk3s on March 20, 2025, 06:56:33 PMJust as long as everybody knows to cross at the corner marker. Don't cross where onx says is the corner, don't cross "kind of close". Cross right at the marker.
And where might that be. Some may be visible/obvious but I would think most aren't. Then you have to walk around looking for it. Then you have to be careful not to step on the private that you don't quite know where it is at. Fence (if there is one) is just a fence, not a marker.
It won't be easy but it's the way we all get to enjoy corner crossing without it becoming a fiasco. Yes there are supposed to be markers at every corner. If you can't find it, be sure you are correct that there's not one there! It should be close to the corners on the map, but can be odd quite a bit!
I track myself the entire time I'm even close to private so that I can show anyone who wants to bother me, which sadly has happened a couple times here put west, while I've been on blm land.
I doubted I'd ever say this, but reading this thread makes me somewhat glad I live east of the Mississippi River. I imagine there's a few places this might occur, but over all it is not an issue that I know of. Every eastern state I have hunted has so many roads and access gates that I never even knew this existed. I have only found a couple pieces of landlocked public in my life. In both those cases a knock on a door and I got permission to cross private land. This did jog my memory. Several years ago I was invited to hunt Montana with a friend. We went to a ranch he had permission on. I asked the rancher where the boundaries were and he laughed. His reply was, "if you walk that far your a better man then me". He then explained he owned X number of acres, but he also controlled 11 sections of NF that he guaranteed me no one could get on. He grazed open range cattle on it too. I thought he had a lease or something, but I bet he just claimed the corners. They had cut roads all over that land and treated it like they owned it. Now I know what he meant. I wish this scenario surprised me, but sadly it doesn't. Human greed is quite common in our world. Someone could fix this if they really wanted to. This all smell like B.S. and someone is getting paid to leave it alone. It may not always be cash, but selective access to officials and favors get blind eyes. The friend I spoke of in Montana was a forest Service Officer and wallah, this rancher graciously gave him access that wasn't available to the public, yeah that's getting paid!
Having lived in both Ohio and Kentucky I have seen this problem come up in both the Wayne Nation and Daniel Boone. Mostly it is just fake No Trespassing signs. Abutting landowners are often very happy to pretend what land they own.
Question - even if I knew I was corner crossing legally why would I feel comfortable leaving a vehicle parked where I crossed? Has to be a problem.
Quote from: joey46 on March 22, 2025, 07:56:08 AMHaving lived in both Ohio and Kentucky I have seen this problem come up in both the Wayne Nation and Daniel Boone. Mostly it is just fake No Trespassing signs. Abutting landowners are often very happy to pretend what land they own.
Question - even if I knew I was corner crossing legally why would I feel comfortable leaving a vehicle parked where I crossed? Has to be a problem.
I am in Ohio joey and I have seen the fake signs too, but I have never known of a case where someone was actually arrested for crossing. I have always found access somewhere. Maybe I just haven't gotten around enough. I know of several landlocked pieces in Daniel Boone NF, but each of them have easements for fire control from public roads. Sure landowners post signs, but if you stay on the easement (fire road) your fine. In one case a landowner lived right by a fire road gate and would try and buffalo hunters. He'd come out and tell you that it was posted land, but if you said, "I know I am just walking the fire road and you can call the game warden if you want" he'd just admit you were right and go back in the house. I actually became friends with him over the years and got permission on his land. I just started handing him a little gift as a toll when he came out. For years he'd just see my truck and wave, I'd leave his gift sitting on the hood and it was always gone when I came back. There's ways around this.