Having a conversation with a buddy. He is shooting Nitro 7.5x9 and I am running Apex 8.5x9s. His turkeys seem more dead than mine, every time and at every distance. His simply dont flop and mine do. Granted they are all dead, but is there something to the 7.5s hitting that much harder?
Doubt it, I killed one bird with straight 7.5s and it flopped all over the place!
Occasionally you stone one but rarely!
I flattened one out last season at 40 with nines, could only see his head when I shot, wasn't sure if I even connected, walked up the hill and he was laid out!
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I have shot the heads off a couple of birds, and they all flopped. I remain confident they were dead.
The flopping is due to the spinal cord and nerve endings remaining intact which causes involuntary muscle contractions (reflexive actions) rather than the bird being alive.... His birds are no more dead than yours.
If you are wounding birds that are not recovered, you need to make some changes...
I agree, I had some not flop and others that have flopped all over the place...
I will say probably less of the ones that didn't flop... LOL
LOL...no they are all dead. Love me some TSS
I can count the number of non floppers for me on one hand. The numerous of floppers I have killed were just as dead, missing a few more feathers, but just as dead.
I use #9s. The non floppers were 12 to 48 yards as well as the floppers.
Quote from: goindeep on March 18, 2025, 03:04:19 PMHaving a conversation with a buddy. He is shooting Nitro 7.5x9 and I am running Apex 8.5x9s. His turkeys seem more dead than mine, every time and at every distance. His simply dont flop and mine do. Granted they are all dead, but is there something to the 7.5s hitting that much harder?
Ah, yes...the age-old turkey-hunter debate as to how dead they must be for us to be satisfied. Kind of falls into the same category of whether fifty pellets in the head at forty yards is better or worser than twenty pellets... ;D :D :toothy12:
I was about to say the same thing about the seeming "deader" thing.
I've killed around 50 birds with tss and id say more don't flop than do but I don't think it matters. For what its worth I've used 8, 8.5, and 9 shot and my favorite is 8.
Not sure I understand how a non-flopping bird is a better kill???
If you substantially damage the brain-stem of a bird, it is generally going to flop. While I do not have the bird count that many on here have, I would say I have killed about 80 or so birds total, and been present for a bunch of others...
I have seen two birds that fell over without flopping... One I killed, and upon breaking the neck, the bird started flopping... The other my daughter killed (and she shot low with several pellets to the head and neck). Bird fell over (seemingly) dead, and I used a pithing device (to make sure), and the bird immediately started flopping.
If you disengage the central nervous system of a turkey, it generally generally cause the involuntary muscle reaction of flopping.
I once shot a bird at extremely close range early in my turkey hunting career... I completely removed it's head with the shot, and I chased that bird around like a drunk monkey chasing a greased football (as I did not realize the degree of damage I had caused)...
What would be the theory about TSS killing a bird without flopping?
I'm wondering if it has to do with shot placement?? Is shooting them in the head vs the wattles the deciding factor? Not sure. #9 for me with no complaints.. dead is dead, flop or not.
Quote from: Marc on March 19, 2025, 02:15:41 AMNot sure I understand how a non-flopping bird is a better kill???
What would be the theory about TSS killing a bird without flopping?
I read an article about this some years back where the "theory" of floppage versus non-floppage was discussed. Marc's take on it is exactly what the article concluded. That is, floppage will occur if the bird is shot primarily in the head/neck area while non-floppage is more prevalent in birds that are paralyzed by shot hitting the spinal column somewhere along the body (or something to that effect).
I have found that, quite often, I will shoot a gobbler that goes down without flopping, will lay there a few seconds or longer, and then start flopping some. Curiously, I have also found that a non-flopping gobbler will stay still until the moment I touch him...and then all h*ll breaks loose. Consequently, if I shoot a gobbler and he is laying still, I generally just leave him alone to see what happens for a while. Regardless, it seems at some point, even a still gobbler will reach the flopping stage after being shot.
No. Anything larger than #9s are a waste of space.
I usually don't drop em stone cold....
But when I do..
It's with a lead load of #4's :funnyturkey:
I have also found that a non-flopping gobbler will stay still until the moment I touch him...and then all h*ll breaks loose. Consequently, if I shoot a gobbler and he is laying still, I generally just leave him alone to see what happens for a while. Regardless, it seems at some point, even a still gobbler will reach the flopping stage after being shot.
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An old memory was jogged with this... lol
Once I misjudged a shot on a field bird, I had thought he was within that 40 yard range. He went down hard w/o a flop. Enjoying the moment, I sit and gather my belongings taking my time. I stand, lean my gun against the tree and go retrieve the bird. Without my gun (never again) I'm counting the steps, as I get half way there. He gets up on a full blown dash. I was a lot faster back then. :TooFunny: Talk about all hell breaking loose!
Quote from: TrackeySauresRex on March 19, 2025, 08:54:39 AMI have also found that a non-flopping gobbler will stay still until the moment I touch him...and then all h*ll breaks loose. Consequently, if I shoot a gobbler and he is laying still, I generally just leave him alone to see what happens for a while. Regardless, it seems at some point, even a still gobbler will reach the flopping stage after being shot.
An old memory was jogged with this... lol
Once I misjudged a shot on a field bird, I had thought he was within that 40 yard range. He went down hard w/o a flop. Enjoying the moment, I sit and gather my belongings taking my time. I stand, lean my gun against the tree and go retrieve the bird. Without my gun (never again) I'm counting the steps, as I get half way there. He gets up on a full blown dash. I was a lot faster back then. :TooFunny: Talk about all hell breaking loose!
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I had basically the same thing happen at about 30yds. I didn't know if I should give chase or run back to get the gun. :toothy12: :toothy12:
When I say a non flopper, I mean no movement after the shot other than hitting the ground. I have had several not move at all and then go crazy once I pick them up and to me,those are floppers.
Quote from: Marc on March 19, 2025, 02:15:41 AMNot sure I understand how a non-flopping bird is a better kill???
If you substantially damage the brain-stem of a bird, it is generally going to flop. While I do not have the bird count that many on here have, I would say I have killed about 80 or so birds total, and been present for a bunch of others...
I have seen two birds that fell over without flopping... One I killed, and upon breaking the neck, the bird started flopping... The other my daughter killed (and she shot low with several pellets to the head and neck). Bird fell over (seemingly) dead, and I used a pithing device (to make sure), and the bird immediately started flopping.
If you disengage the central nervous system of a turkey, it generally generally cause the involuntary muscle reaction of flopping.
I once shot a bird at extremely close range early in my turkey hunting career... I completely removed it's head with the shot, and I chased that bird around like a drunk monkey chasing a greased football (as I did not realize the degree of damage I had caused)...
What would be the theory about TSS killing a bird without flopping?
I have killed one or two turkeys in my life and I can honestly say I have only killed one that didn't flop. He was shot with #6 hevi shot at about 25 yards. He had just passed behind a tree, walking up a small, old logging that was only about a foot lower than the surrounding ground. When I pulled the trigger, he just disappeared. I sat there for easily 5 minutes, covering the spot with my gun, and there was nothing. No flopping or sounds of rustling. I lowered the gun and sat for a while longer, and it was still silent. This is how he was when I walked up, and he didn't even twitch when I picked him up. My redneck theory is that there is a nerve or a few nerves located in their central nervous system that are a "kill switch". I think the odds of hitting those nerves with a pellet are extremely small, but occasionally, it happens. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250319/752217cdc6ff409d1eed8ca91e1e8a32.jpg)
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Quote from: Happy on March 19, 2025, 12:03:39 PMQuote from: Marc on March 19, 2025, 02:15:41 AMNot sure I understand how a non-flopping bird is a better kill???
If you substantially damage the brain-stem of a bird, it is generally going to flop. While I do not have the bird count that many on here have, I would say I have killed about 80 or so birds total, and been present for a bunch of others...
I have seen two birds that fell over without flopping... One I killed, and upon breaking the neck, the bird started flopping... The other my daughter killed (and she shot low with several pellets to the head and neck). Bird fell over (seemingly) dead, and I used a pithing device (to make sure), and the bird immediately started flopping.
If you disengage the central nervous system of a turkey, it generally generally cause the involuntary muscle reaction of flopping.
I once shot a bird at extremely close range early in my turkey hunting career... I completely removed it's head with the shot, and I chased that bird around like a drunk monkey chasing a greased football (as I did not realize the degree of damage I had caused)...
What would be the theory about TSS killing a bird without flopping?
I have killed one or two turkeys in my life and I can honestly say I have only killed one that didn't flop. He was shot with #6 hevi shot at about 25 yards. He had just passed behind a tree, walking up a small, old logging that was only about a foot lower than the surrounding ground. When I pulled the trigger, he just disappeared. I sat there for easily 5 minutes, covering the spot with my gun, and there was nothing. No flopping or sounds of rustling. I lowered the gun and sat for a while longer, and it was still silent. This is how he was when I walked up, and he didn't even twitch when I picked him up. My redneck theory is that there is a nerve or a few nerves located in their central nervous system that are a "kill switch". I think the odds of hitting those nerves with a pellet are extremely small, but occasionally, it happens. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250319/752217cdc6ff409d1eed8ca91e1e8a32.jpg)
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If I'm remembering correctly this is how "g8rvet" on here described it several years ago when the flop/no flop came up
He's a veterinarian or vegetarian I can't remember which
I think size does matter goindeep :OGturkeyhead:
Interesting side topic on the flopping...
I will say, I am more cautious on the birds that did not flop. Either broke their necks or pith them... Which I actually do on the "floppers" as well... Having "dead" head shot ducks fly away after being piled on the blind has given me cause for caution... I have no desire for a turkey to come back to life in my vest hiking back up a steep canyon.
As far as shot size, I hear #9's are a great load. That seems small to me, but it is difficult to argue with the results...
My question is what is the smallest shot that can maintain downrange energy enough to penetrate bone at the ranges you are going to hunt, while also creating a large enough wound channel to immediately stop a bird? What is the largest pellet size that will maintain pattern densities necessary to kill a bird at the ranges desired?
If #12 pellets carried enough energy, would they create a large enough wound channel to stop a bird?
Do #6 TSS pellets provide the pattern density to put 100 pellets in a 10 inch circle at 40 yards?
And... It is my understanding that larger pellet sizes will carry energy further, while also maintaining better pattern percentages out further? So what is to gain from going from #9 TSS to #7 TSS or vice versa?
If #7's put 110 pellets in a 10" circle, and #9's put 180 pellets in that same circle, would hunters see any difference in efficacy (remembering that those #7's are also creating larger wound channels)? My guess would be no...
Without doing a stitch of research, were I offered free 1.5 oz of TSS in any shot size, I would probably go with #8's...
Pellet counts jump drastically with TSS from size to size, 9 shot is the sweet spot for pattern density and range, they run out of energy and pattern around the same time.
I have seen a lot of birds shot with all types of shot, no flopping is rare, body shot bow kills with good placement of course are the least dramatic, they just tip over.
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A chicken flops after you cut off its head. Flopping is no kind of indication
Quote from: Marc on March 19, 2025, 11:49:57 PMInteresting side topic on the flopping...
I will say, I am more cautious on the birds that did not flop. Either broke their necks or pith them... Which I actually do on the "floppers" as well... Having "dead" head shot ducks fly away after being piled on the blind has given me cause for caution... I have no desire for a turkey to come back to life in my vest hiking back up a steep canyon.
As far as shot size, I hear #9's are a great load. That seems small to me, but it is difficult to argue with the results...
My question is what is the smallest shot that can maintain downrange energy enough to penetrate bone at the ranges you are going to hunt, while also creating a large enough wound channel to immediately stop a bird? What is the largest pellet size that will maintain pattern densities necessary to kill a bird at the ranges desired?
If #12 pellets carried enough energy, would they create a large enough wound channel to stop a bird?
Do #6 TSS pellets provide the pattern density to put 100 pellets in a 10 inch circle at 40 yards?
And... It is my understanding that larger pellet sizes will carry energy further, while also maintaining better pattern percentages out further? So what is to gain from going from #9 TSS to #7 TSS or vice versa?
If #7's put 110 pellets in a 10" circle, and #9's put 180 pellets in that same circle, would hunters see any difference in efficacy (remembering that those #7's are also creating larger wound channels)? My guess would be no...
Without doing a stitch of research, were I offered free 1.5 oz of TSS in any shot size, I would probably go with #8's...
I have heard people killing em with 10.5s in .410.
In the end, shot size wont make a difference when using TSS. 7-10, plenty of energy going down range, plenty of pellets.
Change shot size may help pattern hunters. May get the long range guys a few extra yards.
I shot one with 9s who just slumped.
I shot one with 7s who bled everywhere from his head while trying to flop himself away from me.
I think if you do enough damage to the brain, or perhaps the right damage, you turn the lights off.
There an allusion to chickens here...but how about waterfowl? Stoning a duck isn't uncommon.
The old schoolers would understand this...When we used to kill chickens on the farm, we would chop off their heads and throw them on the ground and most would flop all over the place, and others would actually run. YES, without their heads attached. Dead is eventually dead!!!
Quote from: ruination on March 20, 2025, 12:11:55 PMThere an allusion to chickens here...but how about waterfowl? Stoning a duck isn't uncommon.
Yes... But half or more of stoned ducks are from massive tissue damage/shock to internal organs
excluding the CNS. The percentage of head-shot ducks is much smaller than body-shot (for most of us), whereas most of us are getting close to 100% CNS kills on a turkey.
Interesting topic for sure!
Quote from: Marc on March 20, 2025, 03:25:46 PMQuote from: ruination on March 20, 2025, 12:11:55 PMThere an allusion to chickens here...but how about waterfowl? Stoning a duck isn't uncommon.
Yes... But half or more of stoned ducks are from massive tissue damage/shock to internal organs excluding the CNS. The percentage of head-shot ducks is much smaller than body-shot (for most of us), whereas most of us are getting close to 100% CNS kills on a turkey.
Interesting topic for sure!
Ymmv - but a stoned duck is a head shot duck.
No flop is a body shot. He's either putting more TSS into the body than you or his pellets are penetrating the vital organs of the body more deeply.
The ones that didn't flop for me had zero pellets in the meat from the front of the breast back. All shot concentrated in the neck and head.
When I first started hunting turkeys, I used 2 3/4" # 7s. Never lost a bird. All under 25 yards.
Definitely not the size but how it's used
That's what I keep telling myself anyway