So, the bag limit topic and all its offshoots raised intriguing question for me: If you were appointed the All Powerful Oz over all things wildlife ESPECIALLY Wild Turkey, what are some changes you would make? Realizing that we are adults here so if someone's opinion is contrary to yours or feels like an attack on your own beliefs know that it isn't- I'm curious as to everyone s thought so let's refrain from playground scuffling and chew on this a little.
So, I'll start: Pretty easy is I would restructure my home state of MSs timber management. Strictly enforced SMZs: some ratio of water flow to width left AND replanted hardwood if not wide enough eg, large creek 75or more yards both banks minimum. Also mandatory planting of certain areas designated for hardwood for long term harvest. Lease prices would be lowered and capped and if timber harvest or any leasee disturbing work occurs it would constitute refunding annual lease payments for acreage affected. Also, all the aircraft deforestation with its overspray would have to stop. It's killing our mast production in the few hardwoods left.
Bag limits: as I've said, NR one tag only public or private. Residents get one tag as well with opportunity for a second with a predator bounty. Also only adult gobblers and no hens unless proven populations are rebounding
Season dates; always starts on Saturday not before or closest to March 15 thru April. eg 2024 MS Season would have started March 16.
No corn or corn feeders. Regardless of size they have to be out of the woods by last day of February.
And since this is hypothetical and fantasy I would have the proper numbers of LEO to police and enforce those rules with not just fines but loss of lifetime hunting rights for the fence jumpers/trespassers/game hogs etc
As I said, curious to hear your thoughts/ I'm not trying to evoke disagreement. I like good ideas whether or not we will ever see them. It makes me think.
Let all resident state hunters have the first 2 weeks of the season or first few days before allowing out of state hunting... Public or private
Make a lot of people mad really fast
Good-looking and Platinum level member of the Elitist club
Draw hunts for public land. 75% of the tags to residents and 25% to non-residents. If there are leftover permits after the draw, then first come first served. No harvesting of bearded hens for anyone.
I wouldn't put extra restrictions on private land. In my opinion, if a guy has secured permission from the landowner to hunt, he should be able to hunt, no matter where he is from.
First regulation I would make, is that nobody else could shoot a turkey till I am tagged out...
Here in Pa, let people trap nest raiders all year long.
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No fall hunting without population numbers going up- no jakes or bearded hens in spring - reduce limit to 2 for states above that- we can put some of this back into place as numbers return if needed- possible bonus tag with some kind of predator bounty- no corn feeders after January
For my home state of VA:
2 bird resident season limit
1 bird non resident season limit
1 bird daily bag limit
Adult gobblers only with jake exceptions for youths, disabled and senior citizens (no bearded hens)
4 week season
12 noon cut-off
No male turkey decoys with exceptions for kids/disabled/senior citizens
No reaping/fanning
Split the state into six management zones. NE, NC, NW, SE, SC, and SW. Two bird limit, one bird per day and one bird per zone.
Bring back physical check stations
No jakes except during youth season. No bearded hens.
Nonresident would be allowed one state wide tag good for public land and one private land only tag.
Implement a nest predator check in for an instate hunt lottery... Elk, deer, and turkey hunts on some of the prime wmas.
1 bird limit in Spring and Fall, no hens ever, of course replenish habitat, make non hunters pay for the use to use lands as well. Add more money to the Departmet of Conservation to hire more officers and only allow those that hunt to work to make hunting related laws and work in conservation, let the city slickers deal with gas station problems and the such.
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Quote from: TonyTurk on April 01, 2024, 04:44:28 PM
I wouldn't put extra restrictions on private land. In my opinion, if a guy has secured permission from the landowner to hunt, he should be able to hunt, no matter where he is from.
Yes... Private land and public land should have different regulations. But, with the popularity of turkey hunting, you will create a pay-to-play situation... A lot of guys that have had good private land to hunt on, will lose it to people willing to pay to hunt.
Quote from: Marc on April 02, 2024, 01:28:45 AM
Quote from: TonyTurk on April 01, 2024, 04:44:28 PM
I wouldn't put extra restrictions on private land. In my opinion, if a guy has secured permission from the landowner to hunt, he should be able to hunt, no matter where he is from.
Yes... Private land and public land should have different regulations. But, with the popularity of turkey hunting, you will create a pay-to-play situation... A lot of guys that have had good private land to hunt on, will lose it to people willing to pay to hunt.
This is why in my fiefdom regulations would be the same. Preventing private land from being anymore valuable than it already is.
Bringing back manual check stations? I like that! I will incorporate that iidea as well.... :z-winnersmiley:
Czar 007's first day in office:
In person check-in
No more Hen Harvesting in low population areas. Adjust gobbler limits as needed
Bring us all together ie; No more animosity Public/Private, share the resource, pay attention to ethics by being law abiding, courteous sportsman furthering and maintaining a positive reputation for the turkey hunting fraternity.
Remember, we control our own destiny by our decisions, let's ALL make the right ones moving forward!
DEFINITELY,I WOULD PUT THE MAX LIMIT OF SPRING GOBBLERS IN NEW JERSEY AT " 3".
NO MORE LOOPHOLES IN THE REGS TO ALLOW THE KILLING OF 6,7,8+ GOBBLERS BY ANY 1 MAN IN NEW JERSEY IN THE SPRING TURKEY SEASON.
AND,I WOULD OPEN THE NEW YORK SPRING TURKEY SEASON ON THE LAST SATURDAY IN APRIL RATHER THEN MAY 1ST.
-Convince land owners spring burning does more good than bad.
-Revitalize the fur market to encourage trapping
-No Jake harvest
-No more baiting deer
-encourage land owners and the state not to clear cut and turn every acre they can into a pine plantation all at once.
-Tell Mother Nature no more spring floods during nesting season.
-Research effects of chicken manure fertilizer on turkeys.
Sir- Diealot - 1 Turkey per year is not the right Choice for our Home State of New York. " 2" each Spring is just right.
Quote from: quavers59 on April 02, 2024, 08:17:21 AM
Sir- Diealot - 1 Turkey per year is not the right Choice for our Home State of New York. " 2" each Spring is just right.
We have discussed this and disagree at this time, I think it should be this blanket across all states until the turkey recover throughout the nation. I see people in states that can take 4 or more turkey and they wonder why it is getting bad in their area, well duh, back off the poor critters a bit and let them recover. I am not saying it is the best answer, but it is a good one in my mind, I want the kids to have a future with this sport as well. My time is almost done, my body is simply not going to take much more so I want to think of those coming after me.
Bringing back manual checking stations in my area is just about impossible unless you want to try and bring them back at Dollar Store's State Wide ...
Our App Checking on Line is one of the best things to happen in our State. At least now you can check them in and not drive for a day or more trying to find a checking Station. Even then you had problems with the people not being trained in how to do the paperwork with manual check Stations. IMO
Quote from: Greg Massey on April 02, 2024, 09:41:48 AM
Bringing back manual checking stations in my area is just about impossible unless you want to try and bring them back at Dollar Store's State Wide ...
Our App Checking on Line is one of the best things to happen in our State. At least now you can check them in and no drive for a day or more trying to find a checking Station. Even then you had problems with the people not being trained in how to do the paperwork with manual check Stations. IMO
Makes sense Greg with the shortage and distance of check stations in your area.....
I thought pretty hard on this topic and I know my answer is biased, because I have actually been involved in management and policy making decisions at the agency level. Here is what is normally true; most sportsmen/women don't have complete data and only draw their opinions from small sample areas they are familiar with, Making policy and laws that fit every part of a state is really tough, Most biologist know what needs to be done but are shackled by lack of funding, public opinion and political pandering. I know this will upset many, but outdoors enthusiast think with their hearts and desires and in most cases are misinformed or just plain wrong.
Fixes in environmental issues don't happen fast, it usually takes years to see results. I grant that some issues are pretty obvious and I have spent many a day wondering what in the heck Agency policy makers were thinking. Here's a scenario that actually happened. A club stirred up a huge public outcry and even involved local politicians over how a lake was stocked and wanted a certain species moved to another lake. After public meetings and informing the masses that all the data said that this would not be a good management choice, the agency decided if the fishermen wanted it do it with the warning it was a mistake. In other words, let them learn their lesson. So the new management plans was adopted and implemented. Within five years both lakes had serious issues and fish populations were a wreck. It took 10 years to undo the damage. So be careful what you wish for. I think our Agencies have done very well. Sure they make mistakes, but I promise you most all of those managers are hunters and they care a lot. With that said, open discussion should be a part of every states plans. IN defense of outdoors-men I have seen some very good ideas come from them, and yes agencies do listen. Yes, I am a retired resource manager and I admit my bias, but I will also call a spade a spade and I was known for this when I worked. To keep on topic, I would outlaw all baiting. It's disease spreading and a predator trap with little benefit to game. People are predators and they use it as a predatory advantage. Go ahead and let me have it!
- divide state in zones or units: treat each zone as its own unique area with its own bag limit and maybe even slightly altered season dates based off poult production, overall population health, and previous harvest data.
- eliminate the shooting of hens (bearded or not) and jakes in both fall and spring: one gobbler bag limit for fall and spring should be based off population data but I feel should never exceed 3 gobblers anywhere. 2 is probably a great number for the mass majority of states but there are definitely places where a single gobbler limit is warranted
- get rid of blanket licenses: all gobblers harvested should be tagged with a physical leg tag and called in (even if they dont get called in we at least know how many people are really hunting them)
- mandatory $10 turkey stamp purchase: funds earmarked specifically for turkey habitat projects on public land (imagine instead of the "NWTF Project" signs on public land it said "Turkey Habitat Improvement Project Funded by YOUR Turkey Stamp Dollars"
- extended SMZ's out to 100 yards either direction
- burn incentives
- trapping incentives
- if multiple tags available: cannot purchase second tag until first on is filled (i.e. called in and reported)
- film permit: if you are filming on public land with the intent to publish said film you need a "film permit" which is $100 and all funds are earmarked for use on public land improvement projects. If caught publishing film (i.e. your video is on youtube) and you did not purchase a permit, loss of hunting and filming privileges for a year in that state and $1000 fine
I know I sound like a money grabbing politician but in this day and age, money talks and if people are not financially incentivized (or just as importantly de-incentivized) we are going to see very little actual progress. This was a fun exercise, thanks for posting!
Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 02, 2024, 09:20:40 AM
Quote from: quavers59 on April 02, 2024, 08:17:21 AM
Sir- Diealot - 1 Turkey per year is not the right Choice for our Home State of New York. " 2" each Spring is just right.
We have discussed this and disagree at this time, I think it should be this blanket across all states until the turkey recover throughout the nation. I see people in states that can take 4 or more turkey and they wonder why it is getting bad in their area, well duh, back off the poor critters a bit and let them recover. I am not saying it is the best answer, but it is a good one in my mind, I want the kids to have a future with this sport as well. My time is almost done, my body is simply not going to take much more so I want to think of those coming after me.
Blanket regulations are a terrible idea for almost all game... Especially non-migratory game that can vary drastically in population across the nation.
In California, the turkey populations are growing on private property, and in urban areas, becoming a nuisance in some areas. In popular public areas, birds simply move out to less pressured adjacent private property. I know of a 2000 acre public area that has a lot of hunting pressure with maybe 2-3 birds killed in total per season on it... And driving down the dirt road to the property past houses, there are turkeys in every yard.
A blanket limit across the nation is "feel-good" regulation made with good intentions and poor outcomes. Harvest limits should be based on the science and needs of the area or regions being hunted...
What I would honestly like to see in California, is regulated access and harvest on public areas, with private areas having far less regulation.
And I would like to see actual turkey tags implimented in California. Limit is 3 birds, but tags are not purchased or utilized (we simply have to have an upland stamp on our license). I have never run across a warden turkey hunting, and on any of the private property I hunt, I could kill as many birds as I want if I were of a mind to ignor regulations (and many people do).
I would also like to see all revenues from license, stamp, and tag sales in California go towards wildlife management (in California any extra monies go to the general state fund).
Only regulations I would like to see regulated on a national level would be no rifles, and no roost shooting. Harvest regulations should be based on bird populations and hunter activity per given area.
Some excellent ideas being thrown around. I'm gonna keep mine very simple:
1. No baiting nationwide
2. Every state should have a separate turkey tag or tags(a few people here have mentioned that). That way states know exactly how many turkey hunters they have as opposed to the tags being included in some other license way such as Virginia in their big game license.
I certainly wouldn't be opposed to states having a limited number of tags. Each state could come up with their own limit based on population. Residents would have first choice at tags. Or like Iowa and Nebraska and several other states...just limit how many non resident tags you'll hand out and let the draw begin. I do believe it's coming to that in many other states.
Quote from: Greg Massey on April 02, 2024, 09:41:48 AM
Bringing back manual checking stations in my area is just about impossible unless you want to try and bring them back at Dollar Store's State Wide ...
Our App Checking on Line is one of the best things to happen in our State. At least now you can check them in and not drive for a day or more trying to find a checking Station. Even then you had problems with the people not being trained in how to do the paperwork with manual check Stations. IMO
Tele- check in MS is a joke/waste of resources imo. I see the problems with check stations though. Perhaps a manual tag system coupled with tele-check? Penalty for noncompliance would have to be severe but since it's my (our) world , we can make it happen, lol. Thankyou
Quote from: Prospector on April 03, 2024, 06:01:14 AM
Quote from: Greg Massey on April 02, 2024, 09:41:48 AM
Bringing back manual checking stations in my area is just about impossible unless you want to try and bring them back at Dollar Store's State Wide ...
Our App Checking on Line is one of the best things to happen in our State. At least now you can check them in and not drive for a day or more trying to find a checking Station. Even then you had problems with the people not being trained in how to do the paperwork with manual check Stations. IMO
Tele- check in MS is a joke/waste of resources imo. I see the problems with check stations though. Perhaps a manual tag system coupled with tele-check? Penalty for noncompliance would have to be severe but since it's my (our) world , we can make it happen, lol. Thankyou
Without the checking App, we would not have a way of checking kills in my area... No places left anymore to manually check the game. It's working fine in our state...
Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.
Quote from: Prospector on April 03, 2024, 10:13:52 AM
Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.
In my state it's against the law to move that animal / bird until you have checked it in by Tele - check or manual check. Regardless if you don't have cell phone service, you go ahead and fill out the required information in the app or the manual paperwork. Without the proper check-in you are in violation... regardless
Also in our App Tele check you have the option of location of kill...
I can't judge what others do with regards to checking game. I know what i do and that's check my game.
Quote from: Prospector on April 03, 2024, 10:13:52 AM
Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.
I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.
As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain.
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Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 03, 2024, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: Prospector on April 03, 2024, 10:13:52 AM
Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.
I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.
As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain.
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Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?
First things first, I would appoint myself as the all powerful OZ for life, so some of you others don't get in there before me. I would give all of you on this sight with big HEARTS, positions on my cabinet and we could fix this whole ordeal in 1 season!!! I would give the government a new BRAIN to actually think with. I would then give you all COURAGE to vote people in who care about this subject and not just vote the way you always have, because that's what your parents told you to do. Then just click your boots together, go home, and shoot him in the snood!
I like a lot of the ideas mentioned. Especially in person check in's!
Quote from: Paulmyr on April 03, 2024, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 03, 2024, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: Prospector on April 03, 2024, 10:13:52 AM
Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.
I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.
As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain.
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Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?
I'm unsure of that. We haven't had a check station in my state since before I was born
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Quote from: Paulmyr on April 03, 2024, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 03, 2024, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: Prospector on April 03, 2024, 10:13:52 AM
Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.
I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.
As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?
Completely unrelated to this topic but, I enjoy your podcast, especially the one with Denny!. Y'all are doing a good job with it
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Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 03, 2024, 11:45:31 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on April 03, 2024, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 03, 2024, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: Prospector on April 03, 2024, 10:13:52 AM
Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.
I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.
As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?
I'm unsure of that. We haven't had a check station in my state since before I was born
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Back around 1990 we used harvest data to help plan our 1st out of state trip and that state had check stations and physical tags at the time.
Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 03, 2024, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on April 03, 2024, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: ScottTaulbee on April 03, 2024, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: Prospector on April 03, 2024, 10:13:52 AM
Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.
I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.
As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain.
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Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?
Completely unrelated to this topic but, I enjoy your podcast, especially the one with Denny!. Y'all are doing a good job with it
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Thank you.
I would assign a civil value to turkey based on the economic return these birds provide. Then any violation, such as a poached bird, over limit would, would be assessed that civil penalty above fine and or jail time.
Issue a tag which must be validated by a warden or other designated agency. The tag then needed to returned or filed on line with the outdoor agency.
I am on the side of "state regulating their own", so I'll speak for my home stater: Arkansas
-Total ban of decoys.
-Keep season the same as this year (Zone 1: April 15-23, 2024 / Zone 2: April 15-May 5, 2024)
-Push youth hunt back to April 13-14 (week earlier at this point)
-All WMAs first 3 days draw only with no more than 10% to non residents.
-All Federal Ground that is not leased by the state is open the entire season, but any road deemed unimproved are gated and locked by end of February.
-Issue required Turkey Stamps that provide 100% funds go to Turkey research WITH full disclosure of where funds were allocated yearly.
-Reword language that considers EBikes as motorized. (Current regs say under 750 are allowed on WMAs).
The most important to me is developing a legislated Stream Management Zone for any designated Creek or larger with a minimum 300 foot DO NOT DISTURB for any private land ownership whose owner holds more than 1000 acres. This would put a stop to logging companies completely wiping out what little bottom lands hardwoods are remaining and possibly revert some of that back in my kids lifetime.
As my post showed as well; eradicating hardwoods is a big pblm for me too. If it is so valuable then there needs to be areas set aside for it to be harvested just like the pines AND dedicated SMZ for drainages, creeks and other waterways where it is not only never touched but actually replanted if current distances doesn't match regulation. On board there my friend!
Quote from: NCL on April 03, 2024, 02:27:08 PM
I would assign a civil value to turkey based on the economic return these birds provide. Then any violation, such as a poached bird, over limit would, would be assessed that civil penalty above fine and or jail time.
Issue a tag which must be validated by a warden or other designated agency. The tag then needed to returned or filed on line with the outdoor agency.
I would not want to see jail time for poaching.... There is no economic value in putting a poacher in jail... Expensive to house them, and often resulting in job loss (resulting in the tax payer footing the bill for his existance when he is released). And in my state overburdening an already over-burdened system.
I would be in favor of fining, and having pay automatically docked... Along with community service... I also feel the same about litering.
I do agree with the tag system, that could be electronic or paper.... But that bird needs to be tagged immediately after harvest, and an untagged bird will be fined.
Marc.
We have to agree to disagree on jail time. Unlikely, in our courts, would a violator see jail time for a first offense but where do you draw the line. If it is a repeat offender second, third, or more offenses would you still keep the opinion no jail time. I certainly think the the penalties you propose for first offenses are very appropriate, and innovative.
Only adult gobblers can be taken. Jakes and hens are off limits until turkey populations start to rebound. The exception would be for youths and disabled hunters.
Bag limits would remain the same, varying by states and bird populations. If the populations continue to decline they would be lowered accordingly.
I would increase funding for research into the decline of turkey populations. It is paramount to figure out what is causing the reduction in turkey numbers.
No blanket laws!! Even though turkey populations are down nationwide, it is not the same in every state, or even every county within a particular state.
No rules penalizing non-resident hunters. That is greedy, and does nothing to help the turkey population. There are a heck of a lot more resident hunters. So if you truly cared about turkey populations, you would make rules that actually would help the turkeys, instead of just providing more opportunities for residents.
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Quote from: NCL on April 04, 2024, 02:07:30 PM
Marc.
We have to agree to disagree on jail time. Unlikely, in our courts, would a violator see jail time for a first offense but where do you draw the line. If it is a repeat offender second, third, or more offenses would you still keep the opinion no jail time. I certainly think the the penalties you propose for first offenses are very appropriate, and innovative.
Great post... I would still argue it is situational...
Know some folks up in the hills that shoot turkeys and deer out of season for food... I am always surprised at how poor some of those land-owners are. I take no issue with them shooting a deer on their property for food when they need it...
In California, they are letting violent criminals and rapists out of prison due to not having enough room in the prisons... I just do not think it feasable to house someone in jail for shooting turkey or deer out of season, when rapists are getting out. Most judges would scoff at their time being wasted for such a crime... Me, I would get fined to the full extent for not completely removing a barb while fishing in a barbless hook only area though.
Yep... I would like to see them punished... But if the fine is enough, I think it would be a good deterent. Can't pay the fine, we will take your vehicle as payment... Jail time in California is not a deterent, cause nobody serves it...
In Ohio almost all wildlife violations are only misdemeanors and don't call for jail unless it is an egregious offense. We do have stiff fines and your gear, including vehicles can be seized and forfeited. I doubt any judge would ever jail someone over a small misdemeanor. Most wildlife tickets are simply a defined bond and I agree with that. They work much like a traffic ticket. Now officers can take more severe cases to court and ask for stronger penalties. The offender also must make restitution for any illegally taken animal, wild turkeys are $750.00, on top of fines. I wouldn't put someone in jail for shooting one extra animal or failing to have a license. Put yourself in that position. How would you feel if you miscounted a dove limit and had one extra bird and got thrown in jail and then your employer fires you over an ethics issue? Let's be real, a wildlife violation is just not that big a deal compared to all the crime our courts see. Sure we are close to it and feel deeply offended, but 80% of the population does not see it from our view. I imagine if we're honest almost all of us have broken a wildlife law or two, how would you like a jail record for that? Now if your a habitual poacher, then that's different and most state laws treat them that way.
These comments really don't fit the question exactly, but rather are just a basic philosophy I have on the subject.
For me, this basically comes down to ensuring the resource is not put in jeopardy by having hunting regulations that are too liberal...while at the same time, providing as much opportunity to hunters as the resource can reasonably tolerate. ...But also taking into consideration that there is also the issue of providing a certain level of "quality" rather than just "quantity".
Those factors can be quite different in places across the country...or even within the boundaries of individual states. There is no doubt in my mind, based just on discussions on this forum among some of the most knowledgeable turkey hunters across the country, that regulations have been way too liberal in some places. Wildlife managers just have not kept up with the changing times in terms of pressure being put on the resource through increasing hunter numbers and increasingly effective hunting methodology. Combine that with the factors that are negatively impacting the ability of turkey populations to naturally sustain themselves through reproductive success and the corresponding survival of young turkeys to adulthood, and that all adds up to the existing dilemma we have with hunting management.
Conversely, there are still places where the last paragraph does not apply...YET. However, that may well be on the horizon even in those places if there is not careful consideration by both wildlife managers and hunters that the existing trends are not sustainable.
Although I live in a state where turkey populations have been relatively stable over the decades, I am seeing changes that are raising my concern. Gobbler numbers are noticeably decreasing in the spring season here. Over the last decade, our hunter numbers have increased by roughly 50% and harvest by almost 60%. Surrounding states are modifying their regulations downward while we are not,...and unfortunately, our wildlife managers don't seem to be aware of the potential storm on the horizon that may well be caused by that.
I could go on...but enough for now...