I experienced similar harassment to this video many years ago on a small farm owned by my grandmother. I was approached 2x in one week while in a tree and pulled over right after leaving 3x that same week with blue lights and sirens going, once with my 5 year old son with me. I knew the other landowners in the area since I was 7, and none of them called them to come out.
I even found evidence where they had hunted from one of my stands - found a spent 270 case, which I or the neighbors have never owned and found out the local gw used one and was caught by another hunter in his stand 1/2 mile down the road from my land.
At the time, and before I found the spent case, I thought it was isolated to me and the only thing that stopped it was calling 911 and getting a deputy sent out and asked to have the gws charged with trespassing (I went to school with the sheriff's son, also a deputy, who advised me to do so). Terrible to see it is still happening to folks and on a larger scale.
I found out later on that the local gw had called my grandmother and asked permission to hunt a week prior to the incidents and she told him no, so in my case it was petty jealousy and using his position to harass me.
https://youtu.be/wvsnVDbxOhU?si=N3VqYqCXd4qXgIzP
I remember reading one of Lovett William's Books. This statement that he wrote really stuck out.-- Where Ever There Is Game- There Is Poaching..
Had and still have some private land to hunt in both Florida and Ohio. With the explosion of very good real time trail cameras things are not as bad as they once were. In the good old days "neighbors" were always the biggest problem. In Florida trespass with a firearm is a felony so it is a sneaker bunch. In Ohio the landowners know who the problem people are when they are photographed and a phone call usually takes care of it. This will never totally change but seems to be a little better now.
BTW - that video is worth watching. I am a retired LEO so I have mixed feelings about it but always remember if asked for a consent to search that your answer can be a polite "no". "Exploratory Searches" are a bad move just on principal. If an officer has probable cause to search he normally won't ask. There is probably more to the story in this video.
A friend of mine was hunting whitetail basically in his back yard, had 30 acres or so, some dude comes down the creek and asked him if he had permission to hunt, of course my friend said yes, moron asked him from who, friend says the landowner, moron says well who is that, uh well that would be me!
The private I hunt, we prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. It is extremely well posted and patrolled. Cameras by the entrance points. We don't have many problems at all.
Anyone could come cruising through private property at any time.
There are always gonna be bad apples in all walks of life, from law enforcement, to pedophile pastors.
Would Game Wardens be able to effectively do their job without open fields doctrine, or having to get a search warrant for any time they wanted to investigate something? Do GW do more good than harm?
I think the bad apples are fewer than the good, but being on the receiving end of corruption/harassment definitely sucks!
This stuff becomes a real can of worms!
JT
Couple years ago we set up on private ground, random blind calling - just hen sounds as it was a slow morning. Suddenly a guy emerged from the tree line across the pipeline in front of us, shotgun at 3/4 arms, pointing his gun in the direction of the hen deke, and us behind that. We hollered at him, and he turned and fast walked out of there.
It happens all the time.
Don't know about this guy, but a lot of folks think they can break any game law they want on their own land and I would bet that happens a lot more than rogue game wardens poaching. I agree there is likely a lot more to this story and this guy is a lot less a victim than he is insinuating.
We don't have a problem at my place, we all respect each other, and we understand if you need to retrieve an animal across the property line... Same owners for years.. Everyone follows the game laws from what i can tell, but i don't go poking my nose in other peoples business. I can say in all my years, I've not seen anyone break game laws at our place... The only people who come on the farm is coon hunters sometimes at night during coon season and that's fine, we look at this as a way of getting rid of some predators.
We have an piece of public land near where I live that is stocked with pheasants, one of few. There was older local judge that put up posted signs trying to make it his private hunting spot. The local GWs got word of this and busted him.
Again, I am located in a part of the country where hunting often is done on large tracts of public land with scatterings of private intermixed. Not to discount the issue of trespassing (it can be a problem anywhere), but from my experience, our problem more often is private property owners trying to discourage legitimate public-land hunters from accessing PUBLIC land. (if you are not aware of the "corner hopping" debate out west, you should read up on it...it is ludicrous!)
Contrary to the idea that the issue is just about private landowners getting authorities involved with trespassers, I have had to contact those same authorities to get them involved in situations where a private property owner has tried to keep me from hunting public land. Both situations are unacceptable...and there are villains on both sides of this coin.
To take this a step further, there are landowners here that INTENTIONALLY do not post their property boundaries and leave them unmarked so they can claim that public land hunters are encroaching on their property. I think most, if not all, states have posting requirements for private lands. I know our state does and it a rare instance where a private property owner legally posts his property. Summary,...the problem works both ways...
Again, ...not discounting the problems noted in the original post. Just making an alternate point that is also very real.
Quote from: joey46 on March 13, 2024, 06:28:48 AM
BTW - that video is worth watching. I am a retired LEO so I have mixed feelings about it but always remember if asked for a consent to search that your answer can be a polite "no". "Exploratory Searches" are a bad move just on principal. If an officer has probable cause to search he normally won't ask. There is probably more to the story in this video.
I work in the criminal justice field in a way that interacts very closely with the law, and I agree - I'm always very suspicious of these one-sided stories that seem paint LE as the bully targeting or harassing the totally law-abiding citizen. The difference to me is that I live in a state, PA, where the PA Game Commission (I'm actually our office liaison to the game commission and I've done some really cool things in partnership with them) have the right to trespass private property when they suspect that hunting is OCCURRING, not just when they suspect an infraction is being committed. They assume an affirmative legal right to intervene in suspect hunting activities to proactively check the legal status of the activity. This is more anecdotal, but I've also been told by local landowners that they have discovered PGC officers on their private property, without permission, and out of hunting season, reporting that they were collecting some sort of data or information about wild turkeys. As you probably would agree being a retired LEO, there's such a huge chasm between how game officers can access private property in states like PA and apparently LA, and say, a basis for probable cause to search a property where you have a reasonable belief that a crime is occurring or has occurred. The theoretical concern is, what would stop a law enforcement agency from deputizing a game commission officer to assist in violating your 4th amendment rights? Agree?
My brother was a BLM ranger in Wyoming and he said one of his most common calls in the Fall was the posting or denying access to public land by private ranchers. He said often the rancher had leased grazing rights which then made him think he had total control over the land.
The whole "corner crossing" circus plus all the 4th amendment discussion in several states will at some point be reviewed by SCOTUS. I hope to live long enough to see the outcome.
The Game Wardens can come on my land i have nothing to hide...
Quote from: NCL on March 13, 2024, 02:40:17 PM
My brother was a BLM ranger in Wyoming and he said one of his most common calls in the Fall was the posting or denying access to public land by private ranchers. He said often the rancher had leased grazing rights which then made him think he had total control over the land.
I worked for the BLM in Idaho and interacted with our LEOs a fair amount. I was informed that one of their 'standard' pieces of equipment in their truck was a can of black spray paint. Why? To spray over the orange paint somebody put on fenceposts bordering BLM public lands to falsely give the impression that it was private. Orange paint on fenceposts indicates, basically, No Trespassing, private land. Could have been the grazing permitee, or just another hunter who wanted to keep others out.
He also told me of going bird hunting with another LEO on a piece of BLM that folks reported being harassed by a local rancher trying to kick people off. Sure enough, the rancher showed up told them to get off 'his' land, and then received a citation. He didn't fight it either, I was told, he knew what he was doing was wrong.
I had a guy cross the (well marked) property line on my lease by 350+ yards to cut off a gobbler that was already working to my calls. The trespasser ended up busting the bird and spooking him back down into the creek bottom he'd been roosted in. It completely wrecked my hunt, so when I approached the trespasser, he threatened to call the landowner (he claimed his grandfather owned the land) and have me arrested(!). I called the property owner, who was working in his shop on the property. He immediately came out on his Polaris, recognized the guy as one he'd caught trespassing before & called the Sherriff. The trespasser knew he was over the line and had no business being there. So far the threat of another fine has kept the trespasser away.
One of the horse farms I hunt has trails around it (which I maintain), so the riders can enjoy the land without having to dodge limbs and branches as they ride. We have a deal worked out, if they see my truck parked in a specific place during the season, I'm hunting. They back off and go a different direction (& sometimes push birds towards me). I can't tell you how many times I've had joggers, dog walkers, bicyclists, four wheelers, and other hunters follow those trails while I was in there hunting...on posted land.
Jim
Those of you who called the sheriff, did the trespassers get charged?
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I worked for Ohio Division of Wildlife (not a game warden) and we had times we needed to go onto private lands for different issues. I carried a card that said I had a right to enter to do my job as a Natural resources manager. Game wardens had legal right to enter if there was evidence of a crime. However, I can tell you that in my district of the state we always with no exception went and met with the landowner and explained what we would be doing and ask permission. I can only think of one time we were told no and we did not enter onto his property. Our policy was to never go on private land without consent. Now law enforcement was different, because criminals would only use that policy as escape plans. Still, if it wasn't an active crime most wardens would still go ask. Usually landowners were happy to grant permission and glad we were out doing something. I always invited them to come and observe. Heck I can't tell you how many times landowner showed up with food or gifts, which we couldn't take.
Slippery slope. Every situation is different. The US Constitution and the 4th Amendment should be the defining decision in these situations. If I was lucky enough to own several hundreds acres of fenced and gated private land would not be overly excited about constant intrusion of anyone. That's why it's fenced and gated We are now in the drone age. A few drone flyovers may keep everyone honest. The times they are a changing.
Open fields doctrine applies to everyone. Comes up in waterfowl a bit for private guys baiting.
On the one hand, it would be impossible for game wardens to do their job without it. Well, i guess they could only bother with public lands.
On the other, it's kind of an obvious violation of the 4th.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-fields_doctrine
I have seen all this from both sides of the fence. Even though I had a long and great career with our DNR and made friends with many Wildlife officers and even assisted them I have a few bones to pick with them. I will go as far as to say most are good people and considerate of the outdoors enthusiast they encounter day to day, but there are some bad eggs in the crowd.
when checked by an officer, Politely answer the required questions, like yes sir I have a license here it is or yes here is my written permission. Remember they are on high alert, so unload a weapon and set it aside and tell them before you do. Beyond that you have done your part. You can be reasonably detained and questioned, but that has a limit. Once your beyond the obvious simply ask, am I under arrest and if the answer is no then you should be free to go. Almost all game violations are misdemeanors and are not arrest and detain crimes. So if your not getting a ticket you should be free to go. If your uncomfortable ask permission to record the interaction with your cell phone. An encounter with an officer should be polite and business like from both sides. Even if your in violation they should be courteous. Now if you want to bluster, cuss and and be disobedient, that knot on your head is your fault.
A little common sense on both sides goes a long ways. That's something we see less of all the time.
I am quite lucky to be so charming, I have permission to hunt a posted honey hole. The farmer is a wonderful young man of 75 that still works his logging business and the 400 chickens and 75 Texas Longhorns. He is old school New Englander. I was the only one to ask for permission, even though there were only posted signs around his house. He told me to take my wife and kids to this honey hole and it has produced at least one bird every year. He recently put 2200 acres into conservation, but left the little piece we hunt posted. I dropped off some fresh tuna steaks to him and he handed me a written, not the law but nice, permission to hunt letter. For my life, not his, for me and my wife. Just for being a responsible courteous human. His breed is dying off and that leaves just us peeps. I hope we can keep it alive. Z
If the government/game warden/ sheriff's department are being corrupt, Shame on them , they deserve to get sued. I have been harassed by game wardens as well but it was because of a jealous neighbor that didn't want me there, so they turned me in to the game commission several times for being an outlaw hunter which was not true, I gave them permission to checkout my truck and anything else I had because I had nothing to hide and had done no wrong the only thing I had done was be an ethical hunter , I got checked for 3 years regardless of the season on this same piece of private property and they could never find but one reason to give me a ticket and that was hunting on private property without written permission, I had keys to the gates of the property and keys to the farm house and still got a ticket, when I went to court the judge asked for our statements and he made the decision He told the warden to not bring this type of stuff back in his court room and tossed it out of court. I have never had any other issues with them checking me. I have had other dealings with them for tags and other things and have came up never had any other issues, I was very upset for a while with how they handled the situation, but when it comes down to it they have a job to do and if they get a tip about something they have to check it out .Iam not saying that gives them the right to do what they want and harass people because that's definitely not right. But they will definitely check things out if they keep getting calls about someone being illegal. Sometimes it's true and people are being unethical and sometimes it's a jealous neighbor or another jealous hunter who is trying to get you to leave but If your not doing anything wrong there isn't anything to worry about be respectful and polite to them and they will move on.
That sounds like a bad deal Turkz39. All the officers I knew in my area would never write a hunting without permission ticket unless the landowner requested it. If the landowner vouched for you your good. Technically they can write the ticket, but come on it's obvious you had permission.
I once had them roll up on me in Ky and it was two trainees and a training officer and I was coming into a landing by boat. I had a turkey and everything was legal. The two trainees come at me like commandos. One took my gun and one jumped in my boat and grabbed my vest. He proceeded to pull my turkey out and then started shaking out my vest upside down into the boat. The other took my semi-auto to the truck and stuck some instrument in the magazine to see if it was plugged and got it jammed. I was POed by this time and I yelled stop, I will show you anything you want to see. At that I was told to keep my hands clear and stand by the truck facing the senior officer and he stared me down the whole time. After everything checked out they left all my gear loose in a pile, but the tool was still jammed in my gun. I had to disassemble my gun to get it out. NOt even an apology, just jumped back in the truck and took off. In the movie Gran Torino with Clint Eastwood there's a scene that goes like this:
"Duke:
What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski:
Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have f***ed with? That's me.
Well at the time I was a supervisor for our game commission and I knew all the senior officers over these tools. So I drove to their office and had a chat with their Lieutenant. As we were talking this crew came through the door. The Lt told them to come to his office and he then said, I want you to meet my good friend from the state just north of us. Man I wish I had a picture of their faces. They didn't even get to say hello and he lit into them and after about 10 minutes of screaming arse chewing he made them apologize and put them all on report for disciplinary review. I will say I have been checked many times in that state and area and all those officers were polite and professional. One even gave me a break once when we discovered my plug was broken and he could get a fourth shell in, I told him the other jerk officer broke it. I wish we they all were professional and polite but they aren't
Got a new piece of private this year with sole permission to turkey hunt. Leasor said I could let anyone I wanted to hunt there, but no one else would be there (it is a deer lease with NO turkey rights - spring or fall). We split the cost of the turkey lease 4 ways and all members (brother, son-in-law and nephew) have a copy of the written permission. We scouted it and found strut marks and nephew went there to hunt. He was on birds, but could not get in front of them so he drove to the next road to go in and there were 3 trucks behind the locked gate (obviously had key). SIL and I were on public and working a bird so I told him to take pictures of license plates and call GW. I texted him the lease manager number. I was busy working after the bird (unsuccessful, walked our legs off and got to him but he would not finish) and found out later the GW showed up, the manager showed up and it was a deer hunting member and some of his buddies that just decided they could turkey hunt. He had a come to Jesus with him and he texted me later and said "This guy will not do this again and you do have sole rights, if you see anyone they do not have permission and do exactly what you did - call the GW and me". He reiterated it was my lease and I could let anyone turkey hunt only I wanted during turkey season.
I have had to throw people off the land I hunt, I know I had seen the one kid there during turkey season (There were I think 5 of them father and kids/friends of kids) his hat was VERY distinctive, he saw me as well and of course I can't run so I could not catch him. He ran from another person as well because he described the odd hat as well. This time we came up on them when we were trapping, they said the Mennonite below had given them permission which I do believe as we saw them talking to them as we were coming down the road but the problem was he had no right to give permission. The father called them on the radios and they all came in and it was very apparent they had been there before by how quickly they got back to where the father was and from all different directions. I not being the landowner was trying to be polite but firm about it when Mr. Funny Hat started to run his mouth about "Why do you need all they land to hunt anyway, why can't we hunt too?" Me being me my demeanor changed to being much more firm but still trying to be polite and I advised him I could just call the land owner and he will call the game warden if you are lucky. (One of the owners has been known to walk people off by gun point) The father quickly made him shut up and they left. Mr. Funny Hat was busted on the property by one of the owners this turkey season and has lost his license over it as I had taken pictures of all their licenses during the incident above so he was a known problem , none of his friends have been back. I got a photograph of somebody this year with my camera but we have not been able to identify the person yet.
I don't have money, I will never be able to own land but I firmly believe in respecting a persons property, private means private, period. It is a major problem with the Mennonites around here, they rape their own land leaving not a hedgerow or tree in sight and then trespass on others land and act like it is owed to them and they are above the law. Unfortunately the local government does not how many of our laws against them because they are a tourist attraction and they do not want them leaving the county.
I can tell you of a place where the locals are allowed to ride there ATVs through just under 1000 acres of land locked national forest at roost time where the only access for the public is through a corner crossing If you go in there and call one off of private land into public and shoot it the game warden will be called to harass you with charges of trespassing.
A farmer friend of mine decided that he was going dove hunting on his own land and was surprised to find someone without permission was already there. The trespasser challenged my friend as to who gave my friend permission to hunt there and even called the game warden on him. After the game warden arrived and it was established that my friend was the owner of the property, the trespasser had the gall to then ask for permission to stay and hunt!