Below you'll see two pictures from patterns measured by laser to be at 30 and 40 yds. This is Apex #9 (Apex Turkey 1 5/8 oz) out of a Weatherby Element Turkey with an Indian Creek .570. You'll observe, as I have, that my POI is several inches low and possibly even slightly to the right of my POA at both distances (POA is center of red waddle). Obviously the issue is exacerbated at the longer distance.
I would be comfortable with the pattern if I could get the POI centered. I recognize I could just use the Kentucky windage method but I'm a very reflexive shooter and for what it's worth just prefer my shotguns to shoot where I point them. Would shimming the stock to raise/decrease the drop at comb bring this up a little? I will test some different ammo as well.
Appreciate all input but, respectfully, I don't want to add a red dot or other optic, I just prefer shooting shotguns at turkeys the way I shoot them at everything else - with a bead. Thanks for any ideas.
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What about a set of Williams Fire Sights that clamp onto the ventilated rib? You will be able to adjust them to match your "point of impact"
Quote from: Gman on February 20, 2024, 05:56:56 PM
What about a set of Williams Fire Sights that clamp onto the ventilated rib? You will be able to adjust them to match your "point of impact"
I've not heard of those but will certainly check them out. Thanks for the input, could be my best option. Will prob try a different load or two and check them out if the problem persists. Do you have any experience with stock shims by chance?
I have never used shims.
I like the TruGlo Magnum Gobble Dot rifle sights. They mount to the vent rib and are fully adjustable
Quote from: krm944 on February 20, 2024, 06:38:34 PM
I have never used shims.
I like the TruGlo Magnum Gobble Dot rifle sights. They mount to the vent rib and are fully adjustable
Excellent thank you. Will check it out.
Shims don't change impact if you are shooting using the same barrel/rib/bead sight plane.
Quote from: Trkmaster88 on February 20, 2024, 06:53:07 PM
Shims don't change impact if you are shooting using the same barrel/rib/bead sight plane.
Great thanks for answering that question.
Some say shims work some say they dont..IMO no thats not gonna change the problem
Tru glo gobbler dot a far better opinion then the williams site..just make sure you measure you vent vib and buy the right ones.
Changing the load would be a 50/50
Changing the choke is whats will move that pattern..no with that being said IC is not a bad choke..you may try a sumtoy and it may put you dead on 5 inches left..you just never know.
I just ordered this same gun and will look forward to your out come..I have loaded and been apart of the pattern sessions on 4 out of 5 of these Weatherby elements and your is the worst one i have seen...so there is hope,i wish you well and keep us posted
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Quote from: WV Ridge Reaper on February 20, 2024, 07:31:18 PM
Some say shims work some say they dont..IMO no thats not gonna change the problem
Tru glo gobbler dot a far better opinion then the williams site..just make sure you measure you vent vib and buy the right ones.
Changing the load would be a 50/50
Changing the choke is whats will move that pattern..no with that being said IC is not a bad choke..you may try a sumtoy and it may put you dead on 5 inches left..you just never know.
I just ordered this same gun and will look forward to your out come..I have loaded and been apart of the pattern sessions on 4 out of 5 of these Weatherby elements and your is the worst one i have seen...so there is hope,i wish you well and keep us posted
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Thanks for the input! I am not surprised that my pattern is the worst you've seen as it's pretty bad - I am definitely a bit disappointed. This is by far the worst POI I've ever had on any of my turkey setups and it's the most background research I've ever done to choose a gun/choke/load combo. I might try the sights or another choke, or I might sell the gun and buy another Franchi. Every franchi I own shoots exactly where I point it with whatever combo I come up with. Thanks again for the advice.
I did not mean your pattern was the worst i had seen,i meant the Poa/Poi was the worst i had seen..If your a true bead shooter do not buy benille ask me how i know haha
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Quote from: WV Ridge Reaper on February 20, 2024, 09:41:45 PM
I did not mean your pattern was the worst i had seen,i meant the Poa/Poi was the worst i had seen..If your a true bead shooter do not buy benille ask me how i know haha
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Copy that- I did understand but you wouldn't have known it by my response. And yes sir, I am also the proud owner of a Benelli Montefeltro that I had cerakoted according to my aesthetic tastes and it shoots like 60 feet high but it looks very nice propped up on my half wall behind my bed. What's got me bent out of shape about the Weatherby is I actually want to use this one! :'(
Quote from: Tommy Strutsalot on February 20, 2024, 06:17:49 PM
Quote from: Gman on February 20, 2024, 05:56:56 PM
What about a set of Williams Fire Sights that clamp onto the ventilated rib? You will be able to adjust them to match your "point of impact"
I've not heard of those but will certainly check them out. Thanks for the input, could be my best option. Will prob try a different load or two and check them out if the problem persists. Do you have any experience with stock shims by chance?
Yes, I have played around with the factory shims. My Montefeltro is shimmed so while I'm looking down the rib, my beads are stacked like a figure 8. As an ex-trap shooter I know that is the preferred sight picture so the shotgun patterns slightly high. I aim at the base of a gobblers neck and the pattern is centered above my aiming point by about 3 inches.
Quote from: WV Ridge Reaper on February 20, 2024, 07:31:18 PM
Some say shims work some say they dont..IMO no thats not gonna change the problem
Tru glo gobbler dot a far better opinion then the williams site..just make sure you measure you vent vib and buy the right ones.
Changing the load would be a 50/50
Changing the choke is whats will move that pattern..no with that being said IC is not a bad choke..you may try a sumtoy and it may put you dead on 5 inches left..you just never know.
I just ordered this same gun and will look forward to your out come..I have loaded and been apart of the pattern sessions on 4 out of 5 of these Weatherby elements and your is the worst one i have seen...so there is hope,i wish you well and keep us posted
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I disagree about the choke tube moving the pattern and here is why. IF the tube threads are cut concentric to the bore AND the tube is properly machined to be concentric, then the tube should shoot true. Now if the barrel or tube were NOT machined properly, then yes the pattern could be high/low or left/right of the point of aim. Jess Briley in Texas makes CUSTOM tubes to change your point of impact if you need an option.
This is one of the reasons why I have such a strong opinion that all turkey guns require adjustable sights, whether that be a rear sight to accompany the bead or whether that be a scope or red dot. I'd add a rear sight of some sort. The Williams that was suggested would be great, but lots of other options as well. I personally love a ghost ring or large-aperture peep for a rear sight on turkey guns.
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I have used shims to change the POI.. raising the comb, should raise the poi. your mileage may vary.. TSS is gonna shoot lower than lead or steel.
Thank you all for your input. For now, I'm going to put some adjustable sights on it and go from there, as well as introduce one or two more TSS loads. I actually spoke with a gentleman from Indian Creek yesterday on the phone and he indicated, to support what Chester Copperpot and Ranman have said, is that it's more likely than not to have POI issues with high performance choke/load combos.
Another question for you guys if you're willing... for those that have installed adjustable sights.. do you leave the existing bead and just mount the new front sight behind it, or do you remove the factory bead? If you think I should remove the factory bead, has anyone removed one from a Weatherby Element that could give me any tips?
Thanks again.
Just mount behind bead. I've had a couple guns shoot like yours. I wouldn't even mess with trying different loads. Get the adjustable sights and sight in and start killing with it.
Quote from: Tommy Strutsalot on February 22, 2024, 10:01:33 AM
Another question for you guys if you're willing... for those that have installed adjustable sights.. do you leave the existing bead and just mount the new front sight behind it, or do you remove the factory bead? If you think I should remove the factory bead, has anyone removed one from a Weatherby Element that could give me any tips?
Some of the available options (maybe most) come as sets so you'd have a new front sight to match the rear. In some instances that's necessary as the height of the rear sight may necessitate a higher front. Not always. But often. Tru Glo makes a lot of options. As mentioned, I tend to prefer Williams.
POA vs POI is the big reason turkey guns need rear sights. But the other reason I think rear sights (or red dot or scope) are necessary is that lots of times you wind up being off balanced or even shooting weak side. Those situations are almost impossible with a bead. With a rear sight I could lay flat on my back and shoot back behind me left handed if I had to. What I'm getting at is that with a rear sight or scope or red dot, the gun doesn't have to be mounted perfect or level or anything else for you you to line things up and hammer one home.
I think you'll be happy adding a good sight set up.
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Quote from: Trkmaster88 on February 20, 2024, 06:53:07 PM
Shims don't change impact if you are shooting using the same barrel/rib/bead sight plane.
X1000, there's soo many people that believe shims change POI is crazy
Shims are for quick aging shooting alignment
Sights are for POA/POI.
Get you some adjustable sights, even better is a red dot
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Quote from: sasquatch1 on February 22, 2024, 02:49:26 PM
Quote from: Trkmaster88 on February 20, 2024, 06:53:07 PM
Shims don't change impact if you are shooting using the same barrel/rib/bead sight plane.
X1000, there's soo many people that believe shims change POI is crazy
Shims are for quick aging shooting alignment
Sights are for POA/POI.
Get you some adjustable sights, even better is a red dot
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Gotcha. I read a lot on forums that raising the comb will raise POI. I guess the nuance is, encompassed in Trkmaster's quote, that raising the comb WILL raise POI if you are prepared to see more rib? Either way, I did order some sights. As for the red dot, I have a Burris Fast Fire II that I removed from another turkey gun and will not be putting on this one. Nothing against the sight - great sight and I killed a good handful of turkeys with it - but they are pieces of technology and will fail if conditions allow (me, I'm the condition).
The last time I used a red dot for turkey hunting was a few years back. The week prior I had shot a bird out of state and when I went to pick him up, the gun swung off of my shoulder (action open) and slammed onto the ground. I didn't think much of it at the time and about 10 days later I was hunting North Central PA and had a longbeard come storming in out of nowhere right off the roost, knocked my jake decoy like 3 yards off the stake, and stood on top of it about 13-15 yards from me. I reflexively raised my gun and put the dot right at the base of his waddles and pulled the trigger. He raced out of there so athletically that I knew immediately that I had missed him clean. Low and behold the zero had been bumped in the prior incident and was shooting 12 inches to the left at 20 yds. While I cost myself that bird at the end of the day, it was the last time I shot at a turkey with anything but a good old bead. It's the last time I used a decoy too and not for a totally unrelated reason. That incident had me all rattled and I just needed to reset my framing of turkey hunting -just relax, have fun and ditch all the fancy equipment.
Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on February 22, 2024, 12:12:00 PM
POA vs POI is the big reason turkey guns need rear sights. But the other reason I think rear sights (or red dot or scope) are necessary is that lots of times you wind up being off balanced or even shooting weak side. Those situations are almost impossible with a bead. With a rear sight I could lay flat on my back and shoot back behind me left handed if I had to. What I'm getting at is that with a rear sight or scope or red dot, the gun doesn't have to be mounted perfect or level or anything else for you you to line things up and hammer one home.
Good advice - this is spot on from my experience.
All, thank you for the suggestions. I've been able to improve my POI at 30 and 40 yards with use of the Tru Glo Gobble Dot sight. What do you guys think about how far I needed to move the sight forward on the base to raise POI? Is that ok you think? Also updated patterns below.
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It'll be fine. Here is the rear sight I had drilled/tapped to the barrel of my H&R 12 to correct the low POI.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53561250827_953d4b9e8e.jpg)
Perfect! Thanks man.
I have the same gun. No poi trouble with the one I have. I do know elevation problems have a lot to do with how you mount the gun. It doesnt take much of a difference in cheek weld to raise or lower your poi. Not saying this is the problem for sure but its possible. Try pulling the butt tight against your cheek and take a shot than try a shot lifting your head a bit. You will see a difference in poi.
If its shooting that far off it might be a good idea to call Weatherby.
Appreciate that! I'm pretty proficient with a shotgun and this is a POI issue that occurs with my choke and load combination (Apex TSS #9 and an IC .570). Appreciate the feedback but I am confident the issue is not related to my mount. I've been through 3 boxes of this now and the issue was extremely consistent. I put front and rear sights to adjust POI and had to make some pretty significant adjustments. With a target load it was shooting dead center with factory bead and with rear sight added.