Winding down this season I've had a lot of time to think.
I went to two outfitters this year ( 1st time since 2010) and I noticed something different in the people I ran into.
Jim Casada mentioned in a correspondence sometime back that the NWTF had groomed a more effective group of turkey hunters over time with all the vendors and video that's available.I think that's a fair assessment, I mentioned earlier this year the outfitter in Georgia was all about cell camera and smartphone apps to put you on birds. I got back from Nebraska and South Dakota ( good news is I found birds in Nebraska on public more like the numbers I remember than I did last year). The outfitter in SD was a bust, their idea of hunting was ride the roads, spot birds, crawl up to them with a Fan and shoot. It was effective method, I declined but a couple of other clients choose that path and killed 6 total between them in one day (4 I saw that had were Jakes). I was thinking that predator pressure and habitat was the reason for the decline, but now I'm having second thoughts.
I guess I got spoiled, hunting with Bucky Bonner in south Texas, Glendon Sheraton in South Dakota or Lovett Williams Palmdale Florida site I remember when the guide would take you out roosting birds in the evening. If you didn't kill it was on you, but it was a hunt. Not once did either outfitter want to roost birds this year, except to show you some on property they couldn't hunt. The good thing is the birds I've killed this year were hunted not ambushed, and quite a few have won.
The inference I think you are making that hunters are having a much greater impact on turkey numbers (especially gobbler numbers) is right on target,...and for the very reasons you bring up,...more hunters using more effective hunting methods and being willing to indiscriminately kill more birds without concern for the impact of that attitude on the future of wild turkey populations.
Brings to mind that old phrase,..."We have met the enemy,...and it is us!"
States with large open lands have definitely been effected by fanning, even the ones not killed are pursued enough to stress em out!
Never thought I would care enough but banning that method on public lands would be a good start!
Think a couple states already had it banned with laws like no motion decoy's except by wind or something like that.
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I have not been able to get out a lot this year but when I have I am not getting many to come into gun range. I could have taken one of three jakes on opening day but I decided when I returned from my car accident after roughly 15 years that I wanted to only take toms. Not knocking anyone that takes them, I would just rather let them grow and hunt them when they are older and wiser.
It has not even been a good year for photography either, I am just not hearing them except on the roost and on opening day and have not been seeing them much either. Only 11 days left, I am hoping I can at least get some good ones on film.
As far as the fanning goes as I have stated before I would like to have one for before and after season for taking pictures but I just do not like the idea of killing them that way, just seems unfair and unsporting to me anyway. I have not really been using decoys much the last few years.
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 20, 2023, 09:53:38 AM
The inference I think you are making that hunters are having a much greater impact on turkey numbers (especially gobbler numbers) is right on target,...and for the very reasons you bring up,...more hunters using more effective hunting methods and being willing to indiscriminately kill more birds without concern for the impact of that attitude on the future of wild turkey populations.
Brings to mind that old phrase,..."We have met the enemy,...and it is us!"
Agree 100 percent ... WE are becoming the worst predator ...I made a post a couple weeks ago about the impact we are creating ...
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 20, 2023, 09:53:38 AM
The inference I think you are making that hunters are having a much greater impact on turkey numbers (especially gobbler numbers) is right on target,...and for the very reasons you bring up,...more hunters using more effective hunting methods and being willing to indiscriminately kill more birds without concern for the impact of that attitude on the future of wild turkey populations.
Brings to mind that old phrase,..."We have met the enemy,...and it is us!"
X2
Quote from: Dtrkyman on May 20, 2023, 09:57:05 AM
States with large open lands have definitely been effected by fanning, even the ones not killed are pursued enough to stress em out!
Never thought I would care enough but banning that method on public lands would be a good start!
Think a couple states already had it banned with laws like no motion decoy's except by wind or something like that.
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Fanning is not limited to states with large open tracts of land. The wannabes are using them in wooded public land in the upper Midwest as well. Was on a gobbler this morn that was tearing it up. Just sat down after relocating. Gobbled, I called a couple times with no response after having him respond well earlier and not budging. Not more than 3 mins after his last gobble some moron is hammering his crow call in the exact location. Fan or not while he tried to bushwhack I can't exactly say. After I was finished letting the obscenities fly, I promptly headed for the truck to see if I could salvage my morning. I've had enough of this new breed of hunter.
It is a social media world now. Methods take a backseat to results. Many don't care how it happens as long as they get their turkey selfies.
No doubt we have created a mindset through social media that makes our success seem amplified, but only in our own minds. Pride and ego is nothing new, been around since creation. Social media has made the whole hunting community a big turkey camp. The old time turkey camp, where pride and ego were on open display and nearly every serious turkey hunter thought they were the best, has gone to the www and the pizzing contest is cranked up a notch.
All that matters is the kill photos and it doesn't matter how you get it. Having said that, i have , up to this point, been in the camp that I don't care what tactics others use as long as they are legal. My mind is changing in regards to the reaping issue. I have a student who is a great kid and he loves hunting. Between he and his Dad this year, including some taken for friends, they took out 7 birds this Spring. All but one was taken behind a fan. There is no doubt many who would not take a bird are increasing harvest.While I am not overly concerned about the increase in harvest, I am concerned about which birds are being removed from the population and the impact it may have on reproduction.
Years ago if someone killed a tom you'd congratulate him. Nowadays you have to ask by what means before doing so.
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as I've said on here before...I have been spring gobbler hunting since the 70's and in the beginning as a young hunter you put pressure on yourself to kill a bird. nothing better to a young hunter than have an old timer brag on him. as I got older it was all about filling every tag with a mature tom. now (for me) it's all about being out there and enjoying the experience. if you can get a tom within 30yds you've won that game kill or not. example, last spring I never fired a shot and it was one of the best springs I've ever had. this spring I wanted to go back to polk stocks so I got a 12 & 20 and got a bird with each but, for me, it is not about killing a gobbler but beating him on his turf. this young look at me camera crowd are all about killing "ANYTHING" on camera just for the innerweb praise. I was talking to a very old hunting buddy (both in our 60's) and he said we were the last generation of the real hunters. he went on to explain that we started out as a kid following a dad, grandpa, uncle or maybe even an older cousin without a gun until they thought we were responsible enough to carry one then, we stuck right with them and learned everything we could until they trusted us to be on our own. if you shot it you ate it and you DID NOT go blasting away at anything. now-a-days 6 year old kids are killing trophy animals with all the modern technology available to aid them. not knocking the kids but they are not being taught any values or wordsmanship other than kill, kill, kill. to this new camera innerweb crowd if you don't kill a "wall hanger" you're an inferior hunter. hate to tell them but without all the modern technology these cameras hero's couldn't kill a bullfrog with a baseball bat inside a water bucket. a few years ago I was listening to one of these camera innerweb hero's telling a guy in a LGS what all he had killed on camera with the help of this app and this cell camera and so on. the guy behind the counter was a rough looking much older fellow wearing bib overalls with a long bushy beard. he looked at the young guy and said..."see them stick bows over there hanging on the wall?" the young guy replied "yes Sir." the old guy said "I tell you what...I'll give you one and you go out and film killing a few crows with it and then you'll impress me. young guy shook his head and said "you just don't get it" and walked out.
We hunt to kill, but there is so much more than just the dead bird. My dear departed friend,Ken Morgan, said "anybody can kill a turkey, but not many know how to hunt one."
All great posts. Not only is social media ruining the sport, it's also ruining our society. I have no interest in the reaping. I never tried it and most likely never will.
Quote from: silvestris on May 20, 2023, 04:09:30 PM
We hunt to kill, but there is so much more than just the dead bird. My dear departed friend,Ken Morgan, said "anybody can kill a turkey, but not many know how to hunt one."
Amen to Mr Morgan's wisdom.
Be careful. You'll be labeled a whiner just like me. And just like me, you're kinda hinting gimmicks, crutches and tech is putting more killers in the woods.... Makes me wonder, if all those were eliminated, would there be less killers out there taking the easy ( limit) ways.... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
I have thought the same thing for years. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to put people down and prop myself up over things like blinds, decoys, fans, foodplots,etc. But I honestly think it is letting too many turkeys get killed that would otherwise be walking. And, quite frankly, and I will admit this is somewhat selfish, I would rather put the brakes on those activities(exceptions for handicapped and elderly people) and leave seasons and bag limits alone. I think people would be surprised at the results. The people that really want to succeed are still going to figure it out and make it work.
Quote from: Happy on May 20, 2023, 05:49:04 PM
I have thought the same thing for years. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to put people down and prop myself up over things like blinds, decoys, fans, foodplots,etc. But I honestly think it is letting too many turkeys get killed that would otherwise be walking. And, quite frankly, and I will admit this is somewhat selfish, I would rather put the brakes on those activities(exceptions for handicapped and elderly people) and leave seasons and bag limits alone. I think people would be surprised at the results. The people that really want to succeed are still going to figure it out and make it work.
AMEN. I've progressed thru the stages much like has been described. IMO I went from newbie, thru my own " killer" phase ( but I stayed with in the law), to what I now describe as becoming a Turkey hunter. This is not a place that is defined by kills/limits. Nowadays, there are more people finding success using means that are legal, sure, but not necessarily in accordance of what it should be. But here's the takeaway: this has always been. The problem is there are more and more coming to the sport and then just stagnating right there in that phase never to progress... and old timers are either afraid to speak up or stagnating right there with them.
Now I'm quite sure someone will probably arque that I'm just a whiner. That I'm mad because I'm not killing any turkeys. That any legal means is right. I've said this already in another post: we all want our woods back with freedom of choice as to when and where ( eg. No draw hunts etc). The only way that you can have both short of owning your own land is to make it where the less committed lose interest. Make it hard again. There I said it- I'm selfish too- maybe you and I can be an army of two. Legal is not necessarily right. Eg. If the current administration has its way, they'll make it LEGAL to disarm you, they ll make it LEGAL to prosecute you: most of us I think would agree that in that case it's not RIGHT.
Hunters vs. Killers? A lot of hunters are more proficient at killing than killers are at hunting, that will make sense to some. As I reflect back on my 57 years of spring turkey hunting, a couple of things that really come to mind. When I started with my parents way back when, there were definitely more turkeys than turkey hunters. We used to have a 100,000 acre WMA with maybe 10 people on a busy weekend. That is obviously not the case now. And back then there were not many "experts", in fact I don't think there were any. And anyone close to that status wasn't talking. Again, obviously not the case now. Experts everywhere, and they don't mind sharing their expertise, even with complete strangers. So what in the world could have happened to cause a decline in turkey populations from way back then, compared to now? And I don't see it getting any better under current laws, but hopeful I'm wrong.
This is a great thread... the kill at all cost mentality has become the normal and not the exception.
It's just not with hunters but with outfitters as well. I got caught up with one of these outfitters this year. It was one of the most disappointing experiences I've had in a while. I thought I had done my homework and was very excited about my hunt especially since I know several guy a who have hunted with this guy before. However after refusing to break more than one law, I believe I was gar-holed. Almost left after the 2nd day of the 4 day hunt, but I felt I had too much invested in the trip to pull out. In hindsight I absolutely should have cut my losses and left. Sad part is that I'm sure this guy does these things with most of his hunters and by looking at all the dead turkeys he posts on social media, lots of todays hunters must be ok with the kill at all cost mentality.
Also its not just turkey hunting, the same crap is going on in the duck hunting world. Everyone is now a guide bc they can put a social media page together. Its come down to putting as manny fools as you can in a blind and shooting everything that comes in because it all about making a pile.
And on another note, I'm hearing the same concerns from alot of fishing guides. With live scope and all the advances in sonar people are catching more fish than ever. Really putting a hurting on the crappie....
Quote from: Roost 1 on May 20, 2023, 10:15:57 PM
This is a great thread... the kill at all cost mentality has become the normal and not the exception.
It's just not with hunters but with outfitters as well. I got caught up with one of these outfitters this year. It was one of the most disappointing experiences I've had in a while. I thought I had done my homework and was very excited about my hunt especially since I know several guy a who have hunted with this guy before. However after refusing to break more than one law, I believe I was gar-holed. Almost left after the 2nd day of the 4 day hunt, but I felt I had too much invested in the trip to pull out. In hindsight I absolutely should have cut my losses and left. Sad part is that I'm sure this guy does these things with most of his hunters and by looking at all the dead turkeys he posts on social media, lots of todays hunters must be ok with the kill at all cost mentality.
I also got mixed up in a similar situation this spring. An opportunity was presented for me to go on a hunt with an outfitter for free. Absolutely hated it. Wasnt turkey hunting. I actually, without telling those in the party, didnt even load my gun. The hunt was paid for, so i dared not say anything. I just couldnt morally live with myself killing a bird at a feeder as i wait for him to come grab his breakfast. I personally am not a decoy person (nothing against others who use em), but wouldve rather used a decoy than wait for him at his dinner table. I had struggled 7 days straight in MS prior to this hunt with the outfitter, and enjoyed the struggle 1000x more than killing a ton of birds. Id rather hunt the rest of my life without killing a bird than sit on bait piles or feeders. Its not hunting.
As stated earlier, pride has been around since not long after creation. In fear of my pride, I made the conscious decision 2 years ago to not post pictures on social media anymore. Just a personal choice, but what im getting at, is i understand, as a young person, the desire to be praised by others and strive after the status of 'turkey killer'. I keep photos in an album now and only share with those closest, or new hunters that have shown an interest in hunting. As a young man, of 28, ive already been blessed with the privilege of influencing young hunters with the hunting values i was raised on by my parents and grandparents. I think all of us here could really make an impact by inviting young hunters into our world. Change all starts with the finger pointing at ourselves, not others.
I also am loving this thread. Love everybody's input. I could talk about these topics for days.
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Quote from: Happy on May 20, 2023, 05:49:04 PM
" I would rather put the brakes on those activities(exceptions for handicapped and elderly people..."
Happy, at 76 yoa, I fear that I fall in the elderly category. I take exception to your exceptions. I want nothing more than a quality call and a live turkey to whom I can ply my trade. The latter has become a scarce commodity.
Now for handicapped (I fit in that category at the present time), I don't believe that they want a crutch, rather that they want to play the game with the cards that was dealt them and success is so much the sweeter.
I know several outfitters in our area that are hunting over corn feeders more and more to put clients on birds. I got sent a picture of a youth hunter kill and the decoys are set up under the feeder looking like they are eating corn. All about laying down as many in a year as possible to post on their website. We are far more effective turkey hunters than we were 28 years ago when I started. Unfortunately the turkeys have not evolved as rapidly. A bird that would've got to see another day in the 90s now gets laid down at rifle ranges with TSS and the hunter is posting his kill on instagram before the bird has even quit flopping. We are gonna hunt turkeys into extinction in areas again I fear.
Quote from: Happy on May 20, 2023, 01:13:29 PM
It is a social media world now. Methods take a backseat to results. Many don't care how it happens as long as they get their turkey selfies.
This is the truth right here.
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I have always thought that too many Successful Hunters is part of the cause of the Turkey Decline.
Cell Cameras all over Public Lands. Fanning/Reaping should be outlawed.
Hunting ethics, good or bad, have changed with the current social setting involving social media. We need to get back to the basic principles of respecting the game we pursue and become better conservationists. One can only hope the most influential in the sport can help us achieve this.
Quote from: silvestris on May 20, 2023, 04:09:30 PM
We hunt to kill, but there is so much more than just the dead bird. My dear departed friend,Ken Morgan, said "anybody can kill a turkey, but not many know how to hunt one."
That's a great quote right there.
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I have a thought on this. I am not against outfitters, although there are some places it's certainly less needed in order to increase your chances of harvesting a bird. South Dakota would be one of those places.
Like it or not, most outfitters believe they are in the business of killing birds (doesn't make them bad people). At minimum, they believe they are in the business of putting you in a position to kill.
So my point is, the people you are more likely to run into at outfitters put more emphasis on killing and less on hunting
Fellas, im still loving this conversation. I mentioned earlier that in order to make an impact, it all starts with us. What do you guys think we can be doing to make a bigger impact? Ive been keeping an eye on this thread and havent seen any pushback. I think all of the points made have been really good, and with some really wise quotes from you guys. Is there a way for us to have a bigger voice? Is there anything we can do up against this social media influenced culture?
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I don't think there's much we can do. Just hope it fizzles out. Maybe if they take hunting off of youtube, it would fizzle out. Not that I want them to limit hunting on YT, but that could be the only positive side effect
A start would be to bring up these points / discussions at local state chapters NWTF and TFT chapters ... IMO... Also doing podcasts about these problems ... Some of these problems have been discussed with a few local podcasts ... I know TFT is behind finding solutions. IMO...
Something else i thought of is the common view of "who cares if killing by all means legal and necessary is done in areas with high turkey populations." A part of me has previously thought "yeah, its not a big deal in areas with high turkey volumes", but what if we are finding that this mentality is a 'contribution' to the direct cause of these declining numbers? Shouldnt we slow down before its too late, even though there is indeed high turkey volumes in certain areas?
Hope that makes sense.
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Guess I'm just a whiner. I'd rather play the game and lose than to take a shortcut.
I got some great memories of people I've met in years gone by that left me with my impression of fair chase.
On the other hand, without a younger group of hunters behind us who knows what will become of the sport.
The only thing we can do is raise our kids to do better. It is still a tall order compared to the number of kids being raised by the internet.
Quote from: Happy on May 21, 2023, 08:43:20 PM
The only thing we can do is raise our kids to do better. It is still a tall order compared to the number of kids being raised by the internet.
Amen. The scary thing is what will turkey hunting be like for our kids in 20-30 years?
IMO, the kill will fizzle out.
The kill will fizzle out when the population crashes across the country. When this happens all the non turkey hunters will stop hunting. When they hunt for 6, 10 days without hearing a bird they will stop hunting. That will cut the pressure down 50-75%.
When this happens state laws will change.
When the population rebounds in 30 years, if we can still hunt, it will be a more enjoyable hunt.
On a good note, I encountered far less people this year. Seen less vehicles parked around and heard way less people. I think the pressure decline is already happening in some areas. As the population dips further, decline in pressure will continue.
Hunting verses killing... Yes there is a difference.
We are raising a generation of entitlement, in which success is expected. Every kid in class gets an award, and you get a trophy for being on the team (even if you did not win a game, or even show up for that matter).
Most of us on these forums are a bit older, or are more serious "hunters." Someone that strongly advocates "reaping," or shooting birds from a roost, will likely not stay on this forum long.
While I am NOT for taking away hunters' rights, I am for hunters being the stewards and advocates for conservation and hunting ethics. While I have never killed a bird reaping, I have put a fan in front of myself and walked up to birds I never could have otherwise gotten close to... To me, NOT fair chase here.
And... Just cause it is legal, does NOT make it right.
What I do...
*Attempt to instill hunting ethics in my own children
*Speak out against unethical hunting methods and write the appropriate people on my position(s)
*Make a tactful/respectful comment on a YouTube video where I see something that I feel is unethical.
My personal ethics for killing a bird are not the same as everyone here... I would not expect them to be. I (at this point in my life) have to feel like I called in a bird. I take no animosity towards someone who patterns and successfully ambushes a bird... Two different skills, with a (slightly) different pleasure taken in each. I see someone shoot a bird on a roost, I am going to be a bit judgemental though.
Watched a YouTube video where someone "dropped" a bird at 50 yards... Retrieved the bird, and it got up and ran away. He chased it down and shot it (again)... My comment was "Too far." It was NOT well-received by the author...
Killing birds at long ranges is a personal choice... Posting them on YouTube is promoting killing over hunting.
Call me what you want ,, call him up , or at the very least use woodsman skills to get in his path .
Any visual aid . Decoys / and especially fanning is a cheap way to " kill " a gobbler .