I am going to open up a nest of worms here. I have a bucket of popcorn in my lap right now! Haha! I have toyed with the idea of lengthening the forcing cone on my 20 gauge 11-87sportsman to supposedly make better patterns, especially since my 11-87 sps-t 12 gauge came that way from the factory! But, it seems to me that with the harder shot like the hevishot and especially TS and TSS, the shot will not deform like lead and the pattern will hold very well even with the short cones from the factory. For those of you that have experienced before lengtheneing and after lengthening results, chime in here so everyone will know the real story behind this. Some swear by this, and some swear not to do it? What is correct? Should we lengthen them or not?? Thanks guys!
I think polishing is more helpful than lengthening it.
Well..........I sure hope it works and works well. Because I just sent my barrel out to have the forcing cone lengthened. Plus, I'm having it cut shorter, re-threaded and getting a new choke to try.
Barrel was too long to begin with @ 30" and all the work was less expensive than buying a new barrel.
VAlongbeard84 thanks for posting this because I have wondered the exact same thing. Would it be beneficial to the pattern to lengthen the cone with the denser shot? Anyone?
If you are shooting strictly lead then do it, if you want to shoot H13, TSS, WINXR, etc. then just a good deep cleaning and polishing your barrel will be more beneficial, but who knows every gun is different. Post your pattern results if you do it.
Never had one done, but would like to hear about it as well. Don't think it would make anything worse, but I would try trkehuntr93's recommendation then go from there. Never have owned a 11-87, but havn't read much stating that they were hard to get to perform. What type of range are you hoping to get? What are getting now? Good luck with your project.
2 things are sure, the sun will rise up out of the east tomorrow morning , and altering your forcing cone is a permanent modification to you barrel - you wont be able to undo the modification
It may permanently make you gun shoot better
It may permanently make you gun shoot worse
Not trying to sway you either way , but take into mind that there is plenty of folks that have managed to get their rig to shoot very will without this mod
Has anybody heard of or known someone that had patterning problems after the forcing cone was lengthened? I've spoken with 3 different gun smiths and all of them have said they have never seen a negative result. They did however say that on many occasion it makes little to no difference at all.
About 2 years ago I spent a day calling up some "turkey gun/still shoot barrel builders" to re emphasize - gunsmiths that specifically work with that type of work - they mostly do work with still shoot folks but are well experienced with turkey guns , way more so than you local gunsmith I will refrain from mentioning names cause that is not proper - do not ask me who they are- I have not used any of them-I took what I learned from them is that it is a gamble
I have heard by rumor that is negatively affected the pattern on a particularly very good shooting gun -and on the other hand I have heard that it helped others
Gun Smith #1 - probably the most experienced that the rest with specialized Turkey Guns claimed it worked marvels on everything and it evened out the patterns
Gun Smith #2 - Is well renowned in the right still shoot circles, and has a work load so heavy he wont take on any additional clients , he said "matched chambers " are where all the action is not the cone {more latter on that}, he said that forcing cones have ruined many good barrel - he also has some very specialized equipment to hone out a bore - he went into great lengths to talk about chokes - He also said that Crio treating will ruin a good barrel
Gun Smith #3 - Is again very renowned in the still shoot circles - He said the the same as Gun Smith #2 , almost word for word - and also made it a point to say that the choke is critical
Gun Smith #4 - still shoot guy again -said on a dead barrel that wont shoot worth a hoot , it will sometimes bring it back to life , again he talked about matched chambers and went into the chokes with great emphasis
Gun Smith #5 - couldn't get him on the phone , nobody can
Also it is published on a renowned large scale custom turkey ammo maker , by reputation the best in the industry - we all know who they are ..."We recommend a highly polished bore without lengthening the forcing cone"
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Matched chambers? - is where a still shoot barrel is specifically reamed out to match the length and performance characteristics of a particular still shoot load - mind you these are not 2 1/4 ounce turkey loads rather they are Wagner's and other loads that are akin to light dove /trap loads - so that the shell hull opens up fully and there is the right amount of geometry between that and the bore - these are all 2 3/4 chamber guns - Still shoot Gun smiths will make a barrel out of superior steel , there are numerous trade secrets that they will not divulge to the public and most importantly to other rival gun builders
Thank u very much Old Gobbler.
Ok I have set back and figure it time to give some input.
Match Chamber
Is when you rechamber a barrel Stock or Built barrel. You will down size the I.D. and the length of it. You work to get the shell to open round and shave the wad as it goes into the bore of the barrel. This will not give the shot time to move around. This type chamber will hold the shell very snug so it will not move around. Now this will work VERY good on a target gun that will be shot 50 to 60 feet. It will help them shoot more consistent. Them guns need to shoot same spot over and over like a rifle. Works good in low brass shells I have not ever tried one with a Turkey load. The match chamber builds chamber pressure. With the big payloads and max powder I not think it is the way to go. It is more consistent but NOT for hunting.
Lengthened Forcing Cone
This is like a ramp in the barrel. If you think about a mountain or hill. A short steep hill or ramp is harder to go up then a long ramp. This has been something that has been around for years in sporting clay. Now you see some of the hunting guns (Browning Maxus,Beretta,and Remington Pro Bore) have gone to putting long forcing cones in them from factory. Most all your upper end O/U will have it. Now it lets the shot work around to get from the shell down to the bore of the barrel. It is more of shot bouncing off each other and going all over bouncing down the barrel then deforming it. That is one thing the FCW what is good for but it is to thick for me. It will also cut down on the recoil some NOY day and night like some say. This is one thing with the 835/935 the shot comes out the shell and in the bore with out the big ramp.
It is more of a deal that you make more money to rechamber then lengthening the forcing cone. I will not lie to get work or to make more money. Now we have found in our test work you can make a gun shoot just as good with a long forcing cone as good as a match camber. That is why MY PERSONAL target guns that are normal target guns have long forcing cones in them. I have a order in for a custom ground reamer to do the forcing cone like I think they need to be. Shot on paper you can get just as much out of both now constantly hitting same spot at short rang go chamber.
I have pic of shell shot in match chamber.
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I think it will help all guns. When I say my target guns they are stock barrel guns with forcing cone work and chokes. With a good Number 9 they will blow hole about 90% time at 60 feet. I think it will help all guns. With just your 11/8oz load they work better I would say 95% of the time. So think about the 2 and 21/4 oz. load going from around .800 to the bore .722 to .737. This will all take place in about a 1 inch.
Think about it this was you all got to have extended chokes. They all have a longer ramp in them then the stock choke. ;)
Think about this. I never count a TK load but in a 11/8 over the counter #9 lead bird shot you have 650 to 670 in most. Now this is like taking 650 ants and getting them to work together.
With the new guns out now you see chambers and chokes off center the bore. This is why I feel you have the (it work in your gun why it not work in my gun) with chokes. I have a end of a barrel that we cut off that the choke was off center so bad that it rolled the end up on the choke. The shot and wad could go between the choke and barrel.
That said this is a thing that a long forcing cone will do is take 2 to 4 inches to line up/center the shot. So it can be a cheap patch to make better if it is off center.
Quote from: SumToy on July 03, 2011, 11:13:12 AM
I think it will help all guns. When I say my target guns they are stock barrel guns with forcing cone work and chokes. With a good Number 9 they will blow hole about 90% time at 60 feet. I think it will help all guns. With just your 11/8oz load they work better I would say 95% of the time. So think about the 2 and 21/4 oz. load going from around .800 to the bore .722 to .737. This will all take place in about a 1 inch.
Think about it this was you all got to have extended chokes. They all have a longer ramp in them then the stock choke. ;)
Think about this. I never count a TK load but in a 11/8 over the counter #9 lead bird shot you have 650 to 670 in most. Now this is like taking 650 ants and getting them to work together.
With the new guns out now you see chambers and chokes off center the bore. This is why I feel you have the (it work in your gun why it not work in my gun) with chokes. I have a end of a barrel that we cut off that the choke was off center so bad that it rolled the end up on the choke. The shot and wad could go between the choke and barrel.
That said this is a thing that a long forcing cone will do is take 2 to 4 inches to line up/center the shot. So it can be a cheap patch to make better if it is off center.
Well said.
Thanks,
Clark
I'm going to chime in here. And I may not know a lot, but I'll give my insight. Lengthening the forcing cone on a barrel should only aid in theory anyway to the way it shoots. In my honest opinion, a barrel with a lengthen forcing cone should only make the gun shoot better if it is done right by a good competent smith who knows what they are doing. An example I can illustrate in theory anyway about lengthening a forcing cone would be like comparing a a .775 overbored Mossberg 835 barrel to a standard bore .729 barrel. From what I have seen, the bigger bore will shoot better with all turkey payloads from lead to Hevi-Shot. The longer forcing cone ought to only aid in letting shot payloads have more room to breathe so to speak and aid in more denser shot patterns. The same can be said for the Browning Invector Plus .742 bore barrels. On avg, they will tend to shoot better patterns than the typical smaller .729 bore barrels. But this is just an example to aid in the theory of the why a longer forcing cone should work.