I See The Writing on the wall. I am hoping that my own State of New York stays at a " 2 Gobbler Limit" for at least another 5 years or so.
These Declining Turkey numbers especially in the Southeast has to Plateau at some point soon with less Predators being Born in a response to less Prey Available.
Hoping for a Big Wild Turkey Turnaround and hopefully my Title to this Thread never comes True.
All or most states will be that way within 5 years for sure. Reduce tags and increase the cost substantially. Monetize the resource while they still can is likely how must agencies will look at it.
Hopefully it doesn't mirror the quails history. I can see pen raised "wild" turkeys being released the day before paid hunts. On the plus side, if it ever gets to that point, the limits should go back up. And there should be plenary of how to videos on look at MeTube.
Unfortunately it probably is in the foreseeable future as many state game agencies or wildlife boards are regulating seasons/ amending regulations due to public outcry rather than heeding the advice of the state biologists (Looking at you Tennessee).
With the huge inflation in demand I'm more in favor of pricing out more folks with non-resident license costs to the point only the die-hard turkey hunters will remain in the traveling game rather than slashing limits. Turkey hunting appears to be going in the direction of western big game and it is not pretty.
You can thank a plethora of mitigating factors for where we are today. I place direct blame on influencers, money hungry state game agencies, and improper management of the resource.
It is depressing to think of all the places off the top of my head that have been ruined by influencing and advertising. Shame.... it was good while it lasted.
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 10, 2022, 01:58:29 PM
Unfortunately it probably is in the foreseeable future as many state game agencies or wildlife boards are regulating seasons/ amending regulations due to public outcry rather than heeding the advice of the state biologists (Looking at you Tennessee).
With the huge inflation in demand I'm more in favor of pricing out more folks with non-resident license costs to the point only the die-hard turkey hunters will remain in the traveling game rather than slashing limits. Turkey hunting appears to be going in the direction of western big game and it is not pretty.
You can thank a plethora of mitigating factors for where we are today. I place direct blame on influencers, money hungry state game agencies, and improper management of the resource.
It is depressing to think of all the places off the top of my head that have been ruined by influencing and advertising. Shame.... it was good while it lasted.
Oh, and to add onto this R3 has absolutely been a raging success or a complete and utter failure depending on what side of the coin you look at. R3 has been used as an excuse for influencers (youtubers, podcasters, outdoor industry, etc) to exploit a resource for a cash lining in their pockets or for their name to be remembered. And this doesn't just stop with turkey either, every single one of them is in it for the money or fame. If they truly wanted to make a difference and attract new hunters they'd be volunteering on mentored hunts or teaching hunter's safety classes.
Quote from: quavers59 on August 10, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
I See The Writing on the wall. I am hoping that my own State of New York stays at a " 2 Gobbler Limit" for at least another 5 years or so.
These Declining Turkey numbers especially in the Southeast has to Plateau at some point soon with less Predators being Born in a response to less Prey Available.
Hoping for a Big Wild Turkey Turnaround and hopefully my Title to this Thread never comes True.
All of us hope for opportunity, but more than that, I hope wild turkey numbers bounce back, and I'm willing to sacrifice and hope others will be too. You are assuming predators are alone driving the problem, which I personally don't think is the case. When the wild turkey turkey was re-established, even in-state licenses were limited. Now many states allow an unlimited number of residents to kill multiple birds, and many allow (a generally limited) nonresidents to kill multiple birds. If everyone just wants to bunker up and protect their 2 birds per state (or whatever), we are going to be fighting a management battle without all the tools in the toolbox. I also hope for a turnaround!
"How Soon For A " 1 Spring Gobbler Limit" Across All States?"
I don't expect this to happen any time soon. There are still states that have turkey populations that are doing well and can handle the harvest of additional gobblers in their spring seasons without harming the resource. I don't think that one-bird spring limits are on their short-term radar at this time.
Will that attitude change as hunter numbers and harvest go up? Maybe,...even probably,...but I think it will be a while, especially in those states (mostly northern-tier states) that are seeing increasing turkey numbers even in the face of gradually increasing hunting pressure. Of course, the anticipated northern migration of turkey hunters in response to decreasing opportunity in the south may speed up the process.
Ultimately, it all comes down to solving the failing-reproduction problem that is causing the declines. Resolve that issue and the bag limit debate will take care of itself. Having said that, unless conditions change,...that is, turkey numbers rebound and hunter numbers stop increasing,...I think the days of 3+ bird bag limits are about over.
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 10, 2022, 02:07:05 PM
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 10, 2022, 01:58:29 PM
Unfortunately it probably is in the foreseeable future as many state game agencies or wildlife boards are regulating seasons/ amending regulations due to public outcry rather than heeding the advice of the state biologists (Looking at you Tennessee).
With the huge inflation in demand I'm more in favor of pricing out more folks with non-resident license costs to the point only the die-hard turkey hunters will remain in the traveling game rather than slashing limits. Turkey hunting appears to be going in the direction of western big game and it is not pretty.
You can thank a plethora of mitigating factors for where we are today. I place direct blame on influencers, money hungry state game agencies, and improper management of the resource.
It is depressing to think of all the places off the top of my head that have been ruined by influencing and advertising. Shame.... it was good while it lasted.
Oh, and to add onto this R3 has absolutely been a raging success or a complete and utter failure depending on what side of the coin you look at. R3 has been used as an excuse for influencers (youtubers, podcasters, outdoor industry, etc) to exploit a resource for a cash lining in their pockets or for their name to be remembered. And this doesn't just stop with turkey either, every single one of them is in it for the money or fame. If they truly wanted to make a difference and attract new hunters they'd be volunteering on mentored hunts or teaching hunter's safety classes.
I've said that multiple times to folks. R3 is absolutely terrible for wild turkeys and current hunters in my opinion. Especially when they amended the Pittman Robertson Act to allow those dollars to be used for "R3 expenses" in 2019. That is when suddenly states started paying big bucks for influencers rather than towards habitat improvement
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If it preserved our sport and helped the populations rebound, I am all for it. Unfortunately it may be all about the dollars from license and permit revenue. NJ had another lower harvest outcome again in 2022. It will be interesting to see if they make any permit/bag limit adjustment in 2023? They bring in lots of revenue selling permits. Hopefully this won't cloud their judgement when it comes to protecting our resource.....
Maybe 1 bird states will thin out the less serious hunters. I honestly think some of the states that start emplimenting draws for non-residents is in the foreseeable future of turkey hunting.
Quote from: Hook hanger on August 10, 2022, 07:12:47 PM
Maybe 1 bird states will thin out the less serious hunters. I honestly think some of the states that start emplimenting draws for non-residents is in the foreseeable future of turkey hunting.
This might bring in some controversy for those hunters that live in one state, belong to a club or have a hunting camp in another? The draw process would be unfair to this group that regularly counts on hunting these states every year.
Quote from: Tom007 on August 10, 2022, 07:39:19 PM
Quote from: Hook hanger on August 10, 2022, 07:12:47 PM
Maybe 1 bird states will thin out the less serious hunters. I honestly think some of the states that start emplimenting draws for non-residents is in the foreseeable future of turkey hunting.
This might bring in some controversy for those hunters that live in one state, belong to a club or have a hunting camp in another? The draw process would be unfair to this group that regularly counts on hunting these states every year.
"Unfair" is coming to certain states and I'm sure more will follow.
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 10, 2022, 02:07:05 PM
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 10, 2022, 01:58:29 PM
Unfortunately it probably is in the foreseeable future as many state game agencies or wildlife boards are regulating seasons/ amending regulations due to public outcry rather than heeding the advice of the state biologists (Looking at you Tennessee).
With the huge inflation in demand I'm more in favor of pricing out more folks with non-resident license costs to the point only the die-hard turkey hunters will remain in the traveling game rather than slashing limits. Turkey hunting appears to be going in the direction of western big game and it is not pretty.
You can thank a plethora of mitigating factors for where we are today. I place direct blame on influencers, money hungry state game agencies, and improper management of the resource.
It is depressing to think of all the places off the top of my head that have been ruined by influencing and advertising. Shame.... it was good while it lasted.
Oh, and to add onto this R3 has absolutely been a raging success or a complete and utter failure depending on what side of the coin you look at. R3 has been used as an excuse for influencers (youtubers, podcasters, outdoor industry, etc) to exploit a resource for a cash lining in their pockets or for their name to be remembered. And this doesn't just stop with turkey either, every single one of them is in it for the money or fame. If they truly wanted to make a difference and attract new hunters they'd be volunteering on mentored hunts or teaching hunter's safety classes.
what is r3?
Recruit, Retain, Reactivate
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hunting gear companies, state agencies, YouTubers/influencers see it as:
Revenue, Revenue, Revenue
Reducing the bag limit isnt going to fix the problem. Habitat loss, heavy predation and mismanagement/ no future plan is what ia hurting our turkey population. The almighty $$ usually wins out, its a sad truth. I just try to do my part to ease my conscience. If we all try to do it, we may avert a pending disaster. Good luck and God Bless.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 11, 2022, 07:52:49 AM
hunting gear companies, state agencies, YouTubers/influencers see it as:
Revenue, Revenue, Revenue
That is so accurate
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Quote from: cwedding on August 11, 2022, 08:48:36 AM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 11, 2022, 07:52:49 AM
hunting gear companies, state agencies, YouTubers/influencers see it as:
Revenue, Revenue, Revenue
That is so accurate
Yep, some states thought they had the golden egg and they have ended up killing the goose. ::)
Sooner rather than later.
Talked to a landowner after church. He said there are so few turkeys he can't bring himself to hunt them anymore. There were only 4 toms in the area. 3 of them were killed by some guys from AR that lease the property next to his. They came up with their kids during youth season and smoked them. Then one day he looks out the living room window and there is a local outfitter reaping the last remaining bird with a client. Just like that the breeding males are gone. Way too many people don't give two shits about the birds when they travel because they don't live there, they just come to exploit the resource. Unfortunately we are running out of resource, but habits haven't changed.
Unsure how to Quote here- but - nativeks above is absolutely Spot on with his post.
To parahprase Will Smith "Get that 50 state one bird limit out yo' mouf!"
I suggested that we adopt a few of the other states laws to try to get ahead of the issue. Only one Tom the first week. Only allow jakes to be harvested during youth weekend( only1 ), and the last week of the season. Only one jake per season. One bird per day, for all hunters. I hope we can get ahead of the coming tsunami headed our way. :OGturkeyhead: Z
I would say generally the NE states like New England has had a stable population of turkeys for st least 20 yrs now. The states around here have opened the season during the second gobbling peak, and have changed gobbler bags only after careful consideration. Also the season is not inundated by turkey zealots. The F&W agencies here have generally put the resource first and it shows with the Wild Turkey populations in the region. We don't have a large turkey hunter population. I would like to see changes in states that affect across the board, BOTH in staters and nonstaters in states that have low harvest numbers. Like close some areas to all turkey hunting. Have different openings in parts of a state for one or two weeks then opening a second area and then a third etc. we all have to be innovative. Places like Fla have a one bird limit for all hunters every three to five years for example. What I have noticed is a me first attitude about turkey hunting and only playing lip service to the resource, the Wild Turkey. In respect to all I am only throwing out there ideas. And the F&W people have to throw their thinking caps on and concentrate on the resource the WILD TURKEY first and and their welfare, hunters second. There are no easy answers but the current state of affairs in the South and mid south states cannot go on. There must be change before it won't matter what you do. Let's sit down and talk and demand change from F&W and from Wild Turkey hunters. :z-twocents:
I agree with you 100% gc01. Prevention and planning is the only thing we can hope to do to save the Northeastern area. The hunter numbers are going up rapidly in NH as we are quite accessible and our proximity to other states makes us attractive to bundle. We need to be proactive and learn from others mistakes. I dont remember exactly how many non resident hunters I encountered this year but I know it was in double digits. I always see Maine, Mass and VT. But this year I remember Fl, Ga, NC/ SC, Pa, NY, NJ, Oh, Va/Wv. There are large state and local forest land and lots of accessibility. People are using their dam phones to find more areas and they are getting good at finding them. Usually people travelling that distance have some experience turkey hunting. Turkey hunting rule #1, you have to be where they are. If you can read a map and use your smart phone, you can get yourself into a decent area to start. From there, its just good old fashioned scouting and time. If we go to 1 bird the first week and only 1 per day, that might help. A large number of the local turkey zealots kill their 2 birds in the first week to 10 days, me included. So only 1 bird the first week might help also. The hunter pressure goes down exponentially when it gets warm and the bugs get thick, lol. Other activities also pick up. kids sports, fishing and camping. Just my :popcorn :z-twocents: Z
Yeah, enjoy the northeast while it lasts. YouTube, social media, and even the NWTF ("Too many turkeys in Maine?" Video)has put the spotlight on the region the past few years, thus the increase in non residents yall are seeing. As more states elsewhere drop limits and restrict non residents, more and more folks will start heading to the northeast. And many will abuse the "open trespass" regulations leading to more and more posted lands. It's already happening.
And y'all just keep feeding the ones you don't want more and more info.... Anybody reading this thread has already picked up some valuable info about NE just with the last two posts.
I think y'all assume everybody already knows this info y'all are giving out when in reality they don't. They come to places like OG to gather information.
We first need to look at managing predators and timber, second maybe look at methods that massively increase success. I'm not for restrictions for the sake of just making more rules but if it's hurting the entire population then we need to examine if it's worth it in the long run. Opportunity restrictions is the easy way out for trying to effect change but doesn't address any of the causes.
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Quote from: Roost 1 on August 18, 2022, 10:59:34 AM
And y'all just keep feeding the ones you don't want more and more info.... Anybody reading this thread has already picked up some valuable info about NE just with the last two posts.
I think y'all assume everybody already knows this info y'all are giving out when in reality they don't. They come to places like OG to gather information.
This!
I just hope everyone can learn to slow down and enjoy the area they're hunting. There's too many guys hustling from state to state chasing the reputation of being a turkey killer that I have to assume they're missing out on the whole experience.
As for the original question, I think you will see a lot more states implementing the lottery and limited NR tags. I'd venture to say it's already overdue. Eliminating the killing of jakes is something I would support as well.
Quote from: ruffbritt4 on August 18, 2022, 01:24:18 PM
I just hope everyone can learn to slow down and enjoy the area they're hunting. There's too many guys hustling from state to state chasing the reputation of being a turkey killer that I have to assume they're missing out on the whole experience.
As for the original question, I think you will see a lot more states implementing the lottery and limited NR tags. I'd venture to say it's already overdue. Eliminating the killing of jakes is something I would support as well.
First of all,...lots of good posts on this topic in this thread... :icon_thumright:
Great post, ruffbritt (and since you are relatively new here, a belated welcome to the site). I personally agree on both counts. UNLESS the problems related to declining turkey numbers are solved, even though those problems are FUNDAMENTALLY not related to hunting, wildlife managers will eventually have no choice but to reduce hunting pressure. The way things are headed, not only will nonresidents be impacted, but so will residents at some point (we are already there in some places,...and are rapidly getting there in others)
In the meantime, those of us that are passionate turkey hunters need to adjust our attitudes about body counts,...or, as is being witnessed, someone else is going to do it for us.
It would seem that unless the root cause of the problem is defined then any random action will not be very feasible. For instance if over harvest is the problem then reduced limits would be a very viable solution. But as Gobblenut has pointed out if the problem may be nesting success, then limiting take probably will not help much. I believe in defining the problem. which in this case is probably multiple causes then applying solutions to each aspect of the problem. The limiting factor to this approach is money, if predation is the problem then adding a solution be it bounty or state trapper is going to add to the budget.
It appears Kansas is going to a draw for non residents
Growing up my dad had a saying " close the gate after the horse runs off" that's the path we are on in Florida with Osceolas ...
In Florida...check station data ...is reporting about 500 gobblers killed on public WMA's for the entire state ...half of those are hybrids or Easterns
You read that right ...about 500 .. a 5 with only 2 zeros on the back of it , down from about 700 a dozen years ago ..in a dozen more years if the current trend continues... probably down again ..
There's some of you that don't believe me or are in denial ...but when we go from 21 million residents to 45 million by the year 2050 ...you will be regretting the doubt
What to do about it ....well they took a important step with online harvest reporting ...
1) put in a (Jake rule) asap like some other states with a 6 inch beard minimum...they have regulations in place for deer points and length in Florida..the time to do it is NOW() $5,000 dollar fine 5 year licence revocation
2) hen loophole ...some private and archery/fall turkey seasons have hen loopholes ...close those asap...that includes bearded hens -$5,000 dollar fine , 5 year licence revocation
3) this is controversial...and unpopular, the south zone below state road 70 used to open up 1 weekend before the rest of the state , and the rest of the southern states for the matter ..they went for 2 weeks ...we need to push it back to 1 week prior .. possibly put it at the same week as the rest of the state
Let me explain...the entire country is closed for turkey hunting...we have turned into a booty call for every turkey hunter in Florida , and there are thousands upon thousands of them plus the usual out of state guys
If you want to come and hunt south Florida,...fine , do so ...but choose between hunting your own area or ours ...not both ..we are getting hunters , that are hunting here because they want to simply start early , before thier own state or local season and don't care that they are wiping out Osceolas on public property...and yes they are banging the Jake's too after all the gobblers are gone
Opening the season 2 weeks early was a huge mistake..and the numbers don't lie ...the population has plummeted SOUTH FLORIDA HAS THE LOWEST TURKEY POPULATION EVER AND ITS GETTING WORSE
4) give it a few years ...if the harvest figures don't turn around start implementing tighter harvest regulations and that includes going from 2 to 1 with out of state ...then public WMA's then across the board ..but I don't think it won't be necessary
No Jake's...no hens ...no 2 week early booty call season
--Shannon
Although I am not extremely familiar with Florida hunting, my impression is that it is the "poster child" for what happens when you have too many hunters hunting a very limited resource on public land. In the long run, hunting opportunity and quality is going to be impacted, not to mention the negative impacts on the turkey population.
The NCWRC regulates public gamelands around reservoirs here in central N.C. and adopted draw only hunts for turkey season. It restricts the number of hunters and the days those lands can be hunted. Otherwise, there'd be just too much pressure on too small a resource. Giving turkeys days off where they're not being hunted helps breeding and gives the turkeys a better chance to move around and survive.
Jim
Glad I got to travel and hunt well before the social media whores set their bombs off on this sport.
The resource is declining, reducing limits and tag availability is a fast way to help change the curve on declining pops. Adjusting hunting periods according to breeding schedules is another fast stop-gap. Some states allow all day hunting, this could be looked at. Giving the turkeys pressure breaks will possibly help. These are quick measures that can be tested across the board to see if this slows or changes the declines in numbers. We all agree here that there are numerous causes in play, several measures are needed to reverse what seems to be happening across the country. I feel the stats show this should be addressed sooner than later.......
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 10, 2022, 01:58:29 PM
Unfortunately it probably is in the foreseeable future as many state game agencies or wildlife boards are regulating seasons/ amending regulations due to public outcry rather than heeding the advice of the state biologists (Looking at you Tennessee).
With the huge inflation in demand I'm more in favor of pricing out more folks with non-resident license costs to the point only the die-hard turkey hunters will remain in the traveling game rather than slashing limits. Turkey hunting appears to be going in the direction of western big game and it is not pretty.
You can thank a plethora of mitigating factors for where we are today. I place direct blame on influencers, money hungry state game agencies, and improper management of the resource.
It is depressing to think of all the places off the top of my head that have been ruined by influencing and advertising. Shame.... it was good while it lasted.
I agree 100%. Took the words outa my mouth.
I'm just amazed everyone knows reducing limits is going to help the issue of raising baby turkeys when there's no evidence yet to prove it.
No way in hell I will ever let some corrupt state or government agency limit my turkey hunting, Spring and Fall, to only one longbeard. As if attempting to jack with my Spring start date wasn't bad enough.
Quote from: Copperback on August 24, 2022, 09:51:27 AM
No way in hell I will ever let some corrupt state or government agency limit my turkey hunting, Spring and Fall, to only one longbeard. As if attempting to jack with my Spring start date wasn't bad enough.
Quote from: Copperback on August 12, 2022, 11:01:32 AM
#1 predator for wild turkeys, and the overall determining factor in their numbers plummeting has, and always will be "hunters".
Quote from: AndyN on August 24, 2022, 11:29:40 AM
Quote from: Copperback on August 24, 2022, 09:51:27 AM
No way in hell I will ever let some corrupt state or government agency limit my turkey hunting, Spring and Fall, to only one longbeard. As if attempting to jack with my Spring start date wasn't bad enough.
Quote from: Copperback on August 12, 2022, 11:01:32 AM
#1 predator for wild turkeys, and the overall determining factor in their numbers plummeting has, and always will be "hunters".
If everyone still hunted turkeys as I do, population issues would never be an issue ;)
:popcorn:
Quote from: Copperback on August 24, 2022, 02:10:58 PM
Quote from: AndyN on August 24, 2022, 11:29:40 AM
Quote from: Copperback on August 24, 2022, 09:51:27 AM
No way in hell I will ever let some corrupt state or government agency limit my turkey hunting, Spring and Fall, to only one longbeard. As if attempting to jack with my Spring start date wasn't bad enough.
Quote from: Copperback on August 12, 2022, 11:01:32 AM
#1 predator for wild turkeys, and the overall determining factor in their numbers plummeting has, and always will be "hunters".
If everyone still hunted turkeys as I do, population issues would never be an issue ;)
:popcorn: