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Wondering if this is just me, or if others have had the same experience since moving to TSS.  ALL of the birds I've taken since the switch have gone down immediately and barely flutter their wings for a few seconds, if at all.  ALL the birds I took with lead and hevi in the past would go down, but then start flapping wings and flopping around, which always lead to chasing them down before they went off the side of the mountain.

I found it to be 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
I had some pile up right there on the spot from a TSS Facial and have had some run off (not far mind ya) but I didn't have to run after them.

Same here, about 50/50.   Had one face plant Friday and a Flopper Sunday.   Both about 25 yards.

I've noticed a lot more "no-flop" birds with TSS too.  My theory is that if you take the brain stem out they don't flop.  With the denser patterns TSS provides I think we may be hitting that more often.  Just a theory tho. 

I just like seeing the flop, it's just part of turkey hunting... I find it gratifying.. I'm just old school.... regardless of the shells ..

Ha!! So it's not just me then.  Definite difference that i noticed immediately after I switched.   Instant DRT, I'm not sure when/if I've had any actually flop around that I took with TSS.  No more steppind on heads or tackling and holding down for 5 minutes.  I don't like flop at all.  In WV, one flop can send him over a ridge that you may have to go 100yds to retrieve him.  Same thing in the black hills, shot one on face of a cliff and watched him flop end over end for well over 200yds. 

Maybe a little less flop?  Not definite, did shoot first one with TSS 7.5 for legal reasons, looked like he was hit by lightning!


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I haven't noticed any less flopping with tss verses lead. Some years my turkeys seem to flop all over the place , this year being one of them . Some years , I can't get em to flop. I tend to be more of a neck shooter ....a lot of folks I know went from shooting lead and having never patterned their gun to shooting tss and like wow that's amazing. I had an excellent patterning shotgun prior to tss, and I stomped em dead at varying distances .

My experience with the 20 gauge... went from #6 LBXR to #9 Federal TSS.  With the Longbeards, almost every bird would flop to some extent.  Think I've shot 10 or 11 since switching to the TSS and remember maybe 1 or 2 flopping?  Only paced off one bird at 39 yards, most of my shots are in the 22 to 35 yard range.  All shots with the Longbeard were 35 and under.  My 2 cents.

Its been about 50/50, I like'em flopping personally.  Had one flop like crazy this past Saturday, it was nostalgic.  Wings beating my legs to death with my boot on his head.


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Had one that went down hard and didn't flop at 37 paces earlier this season...with (gasp) LEAD 6s. It's your imagination. They all react a little different regardless of shot. But they are all dead just the same

I haven't noticed much difference. Some drop, some flop with either load. I think it just all depends where the pellets hit the bird.

I had one, with 20 gauge HW#7 shot at 20 steps or less that went down hard.  Then started hopping.  Like all over the place.  No wing flutter, just both backs legs kicking at the same time.  Hopped like 5 times, neck down - obviously dead.  I called it the "hibbidity dibbity".   

Son shot his first bird at 26 steps with 20 g #6 lead.  Flopped over on his back and did two slow leg kicks in the air and never moved again.

 Been shooting TSS for a few years, haven't seen a difference.

I've killed somewhere between 40-50 with it in the last several seasons.  I'm saying definitely less flop. Not always, however the percentage for me is probably 75% or more of the birds I kill simply fold up and make a few twitches and then done.

Shory answer , some do some dont. Just like shooting deer. Floored some and some ran a little. Almost exact same shot with a 300 win mag.

I don't shoot it, but TSS contains a much greater number of shot than lead.  I would think than it is most likely that with TSS one's pattern would destroy the part of the bird's brain that controls whether flopping would or would not occur.

Not much flop at all on most tss kills for me as compared to the long beards I was shooting- it will flat clean their plow!!  :z-guntootsmiley:

 Anybody have a good way to kill a skunk without spraying?

Quote from: Tail Feathers on May 05, 2022, 04:03:01 PM
I've noticed a lot more "no-flop" birds with TSS too.  My theory is that if you take the brain stem out they don't flop.  With the denser patterns TSS provides I think we may be hitting that more often.  Just a theory tho.

If that were the case, why do birds still flop when they're shot with an arrow that cuts their head clean off? Chickens still run around with their heads cut off

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Flopping a part of the game.  Shot one yesterday with Apex 8 1/2 TSS.  He flopped some but didn't go anywhere.  The old "chicken with his head cut off" story.  Got scars on both hands from reaching for a flopper too soon.

Seems about the same as lead with me. Some flop and some just give a few half hearted flaps of their wings. The cleanest kill I ever had was with hevishot #6 at about 30 yards. When I pulled the trigger he was standing in a small depression that maybe covered his lower 3rd. He just disappeared. I sat there covering the area and it was perfectly still. When I slowly walked up he lay there stretched out. Never even twitched as far as I could tell.

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They don't flop much out to about seventy yards or so.  I have noticed they flop a bit on those eighty to a hunnert yard shots, though, just based on what I have seen on some of the videos from "the pro's"...   ;D :angel9: :toothy9: :newmascot:

I've dang near decapitated birds at almost point blank range.... And they still flopped. It's an involuntary function of dying. All animals do it in some form or fashion. There's a difference in witnessing this involuntary function and basically breaking one down and having to stomp him to death. But I've killed very few birds that didn't at some point at least after your pick them up flop a little . I've shot coons between then eyes in a trap , and watched that leg go to kicking ..... it happens. However .... Sometimes you do kill things that simply lock up and die. I don't think if you shoot a bird at 35 with lead and 45 with tss is gunna make a difference in whether they flop. Because like I said ... I've powdered there head at nearly point blank with both lead and tss and they still flopped. Makes a bloody mess lol

I think it's like anything. Some do some don't. I shoot a lot of squirrels each year with 22s. Almost all head shots some seem to hang on and twitch in the tree for up to a minute before falling and some drop stone dead and never move.

Lead #4's has that same effect.... Sometimes. ;D

Shot mine with longbeard xr this year.  Didn't go twenty


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Complete speculation on my part, but the comments about increased brain stem damage and hits seems very plausible. 

Another theory I have is that I have not found a single TSS #9 pellet in any bird I've taken (only used #9), and that the smaller shot with complete pass throughs are the real reason for the flutter versus the flop (sucks out their souls like a wraith!).  I always found #5 pellets when I was using LBXR, usually stuck just inside the skin on the neck and head on the opposite site from the shot, and always got flopping.  The majority of my shots have been right at the 40 yd mark (I take that shot every time I can without letting them get closer as personal preference), with a very few sprinkled in the 20ish and 40+, and I have wasted more ammo at the range in the past 10 years than anyone should, so my guns are always sniper quality sighted in.

Quote from: bwhana on May 07, 2022, 12:44:39 PM
Complete speculation on my part, but the comments about increased brain stem damage and hits seems very plausible. 

Another theory I have is that I have not found a single TSS #9 pellet in any bird I've taken (only used #9), and that the smaller shot with complete pass throughs are the real reason for the flutter versus the flop (sucks out their souls like a wraith!).  I always found #5 pellets when I was using LBXR, usually stuck just inside the skin on the neck and head on the opposite site from the shot, and always got flopping.  The majority of my shots have been right at the 40 yd mark (I take that shot every time I can without letting them get closer as personal preference), with a very few sprinkled in the 20ish and 40+, and I have wasted more ammo at the range in the past 10 years than anyone should, so my guns are always sniper quality sighted in.

yeah I remember people talking about 9s always passing through ....I've been using tss 4-5 years now . And I've found plenty of #9s that's didn't pass through. Make a less than desirable shot , and catch a little breast and you'll find some. Because the pellets are so small and do such little trauma compared to bigger shot , it can be hard to find the pellets to dig out .... Now that is a fact. If your even think a pellet is in there , it probably is .... See a little dark spec in the meet lay and you think it's a vein.... Nope it's a little feather sucked right in there by yhe pellet.  They absolutely penetrate better , but  I do find the pellets in the turkeys , just about every one i shoot .... Ill shoot one at 20 and still manage to catch one pellet somewhere random on the bird and wonder how did that get there .

Shot three this year, two with #8.5 and one with #9. The #9 out of a 20ga was stone cold dead. The #8.5 out of a 12ga didn't move till I touched him and then the typical wing flaps. The #8.5 out of a 20ga I shot him on the edge of a road and he went to flopping and fell off the side and down the mountain he went. It was straight off. He wound up 300yds or so at the bottom. And he was clobbered, like too close honestly, and not much head left to him. My buddy was back up at the road snapping pictures of my misery when I finally made it back up to the top. Here's the last 15yds or so. All that to say, it depends
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220508/fc8a966af47d01acc219a525cf62a2d2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220508/57563cdc71f76cf573d4012df40611e8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220508/56e9dc5e198db0df3347ded32418d6d2.jpg)


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Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 08, 2022, 08:08:21 AM
He wound up 300yds or so at the bottom.

We certainly hunt the same western NC mountain terrain and your pics do it justice!   I also like to attempt to hide evidence of a kill site on public, but it is impossible when it looks like you wrestled a bear down a mountain and leave a trail of feathers.  I tore out all but 4 tail feathers on one trying to catch him rolling down in a spot like your pics.

Even if TSS was just equal in pellet count and other measures to previous loads, if it prevented this just 10% better than others, it would still be reason enough to shoot it for me.

Quote from: bwhana on May 08, 2022, 09:15:48 AM

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 08, 2022, 08:08:21 AM
He wound up 300yds or so at the bottom.

We certainly hunt the same western NC mountain terrain and your pics do it justice!   I also like to attempt to hide evidence of a kill site on public, but it is impossible when it looks like you wrestled a bear down a mountain and leave a trail of feathers.  I tore out all but 4 tail feathers on one trying to catch him rolling down in a spot like your pics.

Even if TSS was just equal in pellet count and other measures to previous loads, if it prevented this just 10% better than others, it would still be reason enough to shoot it for me.

I don't know how in the world he managed to never get caught on one of them saplings down through there other than it was just meant to be that I'd have to walk the same path he did And to the people who say they won't come uphill, we must not hunt the same country.

As for the TSS, I don't know how we can predict or understand what's going to happen bird to bird so we're really just left with personal observations. I haven't really noticed a difference, but that don't mean much. Nerves and especially nerves on something that's croaked are an odd, odd thing. Throw some skinned out frog legs in saltwater hours after they're dead and they'll dance a jig. Or like when I chopped the head off a big timber rattler and had left it laying there about three hours and told my buddy to go pick it up and it whipped around and struck him in the arm with that bloody nub. How in the world does stuff like that happen?!? He ain't have a head! And my buddy ain't have his bowels! Regardless, if it had to do with severing a brain stem the snakes wouldn't strike and the frogs wouldn't dance.


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Quote from: Tail Feathers on May 05, 2022, 04:03:01 PM
I've noticed a lot more "no-flop" birds with TSS too.  My theory is that if you take the brain stem out they don't flop.  With the denser patterns TSS provides I think we may be hitting that more often.  Just a theory tho.

You, very well, could be on to something.

First no-flop bird I ever shot was the very first one with Longbeard XR #6's.   Like flipping the light switch off.  I get about 50/50 with the Federal Heavy 7's in the 20 gauge I've been using for the last several years.

Whether they flop or not is all about any stimulation of the bird after the shot, and has nothing to do with what you shot them with (assuming you indeed put at least 1 pellet on the brain or spinal cord... if not, there's going to be some serious flagellation and potentially lost bird).  I've found since switching to TSS several years ago, I no longer run to the bird after the shot.  They just aren't getting away.  As such, I often don't reach the bird for 5 minutes or more after the shot, and they have ceased the ability to flop by the time you pick them up at that point.  That's the only difference between lead and TSS

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Quote from: Tail Feathers on May 05, 2022, 04:03:01 PM
I've noticed a lot more "no-flop" birds with TSS too.  My theory is that if you take the brain stem out they don't flop.  With the denser patterns TSS provides I think we may be hitting that more often.  Just a theory tho.

Ever see a chicken with his head cut off?  Completely severing the brain or spinal cord does nothing to prevent birds from flopping.  It's all about how the bird is stimulated after it's shot (or in the case of chickens, how it's kept immobile after slitting it's throat and it's eyes close as it peacefully falls asleep).  A killing cone is nice for processing backyard chickens to keep them from flopping and bruising the meat.

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Since using TSS I do notice more no flops than the lead days, although my Ohio bird this Sunday, didn't flop around but did flap his wings about 5-6 times, then nothing.

Haven't seen this mentioned yet (my apologies if I missed it).  From my observations.. it seems like the birds that have the "no flop" often have more shot in the body, whereas the clean headshots with no other damage or anything will absolutely still flop - much like the chicken with its head cut off analogy.   Anyone agree/disagree?  Just curious if others have seen the same. 

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 08, 2022, 08:08:21 AM
Shot three this year, two with #8.5 and one with #9. The #9 out of a 20ga was stone cold dead. The #8.5 out of a 12ga didn't move till I touched him and then the typical wing flaps. The #8.5 out of a 20ga I shot him on the edge of a road and he went to flopping and fell off the side and down the mountain he went. It was straight off. He wound up 300yds or so at the bottom. And he was clobbered, like too close honestly, and not much head left to him. My buddy was back up at the road snapping pictures of my misery when I finally made it back up to the top. Here's the last 15yds or so. All that to say, it depends
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220508/fc8a966af47d01acc219a525cf62a2d2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220508/57563cdc71f76cf573d4012df40611e8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220508/56e9dc5e198db0df3347ded32418d6d2.jpg)


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Look at the hooks on that bird. Real nice bird.

I shot one last year on the edge rim of a steep ridge at thirty steps, and he of course rolled off the side of the ridge and went all the way to the bottom a couple hundred yards below. I might not have found him except he uncharacteristically bled more like a deer instead of a turkey and I was able to eventually find the blood trail and disturbed leaves and went down hill and finally found him. I actually was not sure I was going to make it back up to the top from where I was, and being that I had been climbing ridges since way before daylight and it was at that point about four o'clock in the afternoon and I was not fresh physically at that point did not help either. It is amazing how much harder it is to scale a very step ridge when you have a 20 pound black feathered dead weight object in one hand and a shotgun on your back as you do so.

Quote from: derek on May 09, 2022, 06:05:15 PM
Haven't seen this mentioned yet (my apologies if I missed it).  From my observations.. it seems like the birds that have the "no flop" often have more shot in the body, whereas the clean headshots with no other damage or anything will absolutely still flop - much like the chicken with its head cut off analogy.   Anyone agree/disagree?  Just curious if others have seen the same.

Agree completely.

Quote from: derek on May 09, 2022, 06:05:15 PM
Haven't seen this mentioned yet (my apologies if I missed it).  From my observations.. it seems like the birds that have the "no flop" often have more shot in the body, whereas the clean headshots with no other damage or anything will absolutely still flop - much like the chicken with its head cut off analogy.   Anyone agree/disagree?  Just curious if others have seen the same.

I think you're onto something. Come to think of it thousands of waterfowl killed in spreads, grouse/woodcock off points and pass shooting crows they don't flop around like a head shot turkey, if at all! Have body shot turkey with the bow and they don't flop much. Walking turkeys that took the load to the lower neck mid stride, not so much either, or farther birds that took some to the body.

Head shot pigeons flop a ton. Bullhead shot turkeys flop a lot. Ground-pounded geese in the spread shot in head do flop too. Head and upper neck shot turkeys flop a lot.

I'm with you on the body thing. A friend brought this up a few years ago. Said, " why do birds that are far flop the least and those up close flop the most." Makes so much sense.

Witnessed fifteen birds go down this spring, all with TSS #9. Towards the end of our journey my buddy and I were thinking the same thing and that was, WAY less flopping!!! I'd have to agree with whoever said, probably a result of the pattern density, must increase the likely hood of hitting that one area that just shuts em down, but who knows?! But we thought it was noticeable

In my opinion there is definitely less flop, if any.

The lower I hit them in the spinal column, the less they flop, regardless of shot type.   As mentioned earlier, a chicken can run around with its head cut off.  No shotgun pellet is going to do more damage than an ax.

Tremendous knock down has been my experience with TSS...

Shot one yesterday at 20 yards with TSS 8's 20 gauge and he hit the ground and didn't move till the nerves kicked in a minute or so later.