I previously posted a rather less than hoped for performance shooting some 12ga 3" #7 Federal TSS shells.
Some time ago while shooting my turkey guns at my rifle club a member offered to trade me 10 TSS shells for a box of 10 WLBXR 3.5" shells. I suggested he sell them as he should have no problem doing so but he said he couldn't find any of the type of WLBXR shells I had and trading me for a box was essentially his only option.
So I traded 10 WLBXR's for five shell box of Federal 12ga 3" #7 TSS and five shell box of Federal 12ga 3" #9 TSS. Some weeks ago I fired on round of the 12ga 3" #7 TSS at a 10" circle target at 40 yards and the pattern was so poor I couldn't ethically hunt with that shell and choke combed.
I posted my results here and those failure with TSS suggested the .665" constriction of the Carlson's WLBXR choke was to tight and I should try a less constricting choke which to day I did.
I fired the fallowing Federal 12ga 3" TSS out of the fallowing shotguns and choke combinations. All barrels and chokes were 100% clean and I fired 1 fouling shot of dove load. Dry patched between each shot.
Range conditions were nearly perfect with a very mild tail wind and I did have a a DIY wind flag out to allow me to shoot when the wind was little to none. I used 3'x3' pieces of construction paper as my target with a 10" circle around a centered 2.5" blackened target. Used a 3MOA circle dot Swampfox Kingslayer RMR sight.
Liked to add used an awesome laser sighting shell to confirm my Swampfox was within 95%+ of dead center of target at 30 yards on both my 870 and BSN.
Fired one 12ga 3" Fed #7 TSS out of my 12ga 870 ESM using a Remington Factory choke ID of 0.676 at 40 yards. Results were as bad as using the Carlson's .665 WLBXR choke essentially a blown pattern.
Then same gun and choke one round of Fed #9 TSS at 40 yards again same very poor pattern unacceptable to hunt with.
Moved onto my Benelli Super Nova.
One #7 and one #9 12ga 3" Fed TSS with a Carlson's .650 WLBXR choke same patter results as the 870 unacceptable to hunt with.
Installed the Benelli factory full choke again one each of the Fed #7 and #9 12ga 3" TSS again same type of poor pattern shot dispersion.
Lastly tried my Mossberg 835 with a Carlson's .683 WLBXR choke and one each #7 and #9 3" Fed TSS again patterns that would not give me confidence to hunt with either the #7 or #9 Fed TSS.
So I ended up using three different 12ga shotguns and six different chokes from .665 up to .690 and none gave satisfactory results.
I have included one pic from a 12ga 3" federal #7 TSS fired from my Benelli using the .650 WLBXR. I am posting only this pic as this was how they all pretty much looked like. Fired at 40 yards from a sand bag bench rest.
I have no explanation other than none of the chokes I used are most definitely NOT the correct ID for TSS.
Thoughts?
Benelli SN 12ga 3" Federal #9 TSS 40 yards.
Unfortunately for some reason I can not post the pic of the target.
Best I can describe the target is very evenly but very very wide spread pattern. I could kill a turkey at 40 yards but the #9 TSS are putting best guess well under 100 pellets in a 10" circle and I would have at best bare minimum meant maximum of under 10 lethal hits and the WLBXR's are putting 2.5-2.5x as many pellets in the kill zone as the Federal #9 TSS and that makes absolutely zero sense to me as there are at least 2x more pellets in the #9 TSS VS #5 WLBXR's.
Essentially the WLBXR's were patterning at 60 yards SLIGHTLY better than the TSS was patterning at 40.
I have not heard a lot of positive results of factory loaded tss. I do know in all of my shotguns I'm using a pretty open choke compaired to lead loads.
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My only conclusion is that you need to move on from Federal ammunition. Their flight control wad is very poor, but they are too stubborn and heavily invested to admit it. I have only shot hand loaded TSS for the last 13 years, but have heard much better results using Foxtrot or Apex loads compared to Federal. It is really easy to get more than 300/10" @ 40 with handloads with 1&5/8 or more TSS 9s. TSS 7s are not an appropriate shot size for turkeys in my opinion. Foxtrot is essentially handloaded ammo, and I have not heard of any negative experiences.
Out of my on ignorance why do you think tss # 7 is inappropriate for turkey?
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Quote from: USMC0331 on April 08, 2022, 07:20:42 AM
Out of my on ignorance why do you think tss # 7 is inappropriate for turkey?
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TSS 7s have the pellet penetration ability to kill a turkey to 118 yards at the expense of a huge amount of pattern density. A 2 oz load of 7s only contains 365 pellets, whereas the same 2 oz load of 9s has 720, and the 9s still have the ability to kill way farther than I will shoot. TSS 7s for turkeys would be like shooting lead 2s for doves. Yes, a lead 2 would kill a dove way out there (122 yds) if you get lucky enough for a pellet to hit it. Same principle.
Quote from: DMTJAGER on April 07, 2022, 06:49:08 PM
Benelli SN 12ga 3" Federal #9 TSS 40 yards.
Unfortunately for some reason I can not post the pic of the target.
Best I can describe the target is very evenly but very very wide spread pattern. I could kill a turkey at 40 yards but the #9 TSS are putting best guess well under 100 pellets in a 10" circle and I would have at best bare minimum meant maximum of under 10 lethal hits and the WLBXR's are putting 2.5-2.5x as many pellets in the kill zone as the Federal #9 TSS and that makes absolutely zero sense to me as there are at least 2x more pellets in the #9 TSS VS #5 WLBXR's.
Essentially the WLBXR's were patterning at 60 yards SLIGHTLY better than the TSS was patterning at 40.
Thats nuts, every Federal Tss 9's shell i have patterned out of many 20 gauges have never shot below 200 in the 10" at 40. Even fixed full choke guns. 12 gauges at 300 in the 10. The only Federal TSS load that didn't shoot over 100 was a yildez fixed full . It is a .410. And does around 95 in the 10" at 40.
Where did you get those shells?
Quote from: BandedSpur on April 08, 2022, 08:39:58 PM
Quote from: USMC0331 on April 08, 2022, 07:20:42 AM
Out of my on ignorance why do you think tss # 7 is inappropriate for turkey?
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TSS 7s have the pellet penetration ability to kill a turkey to 118 yards at the expense of a huge amount of pattern density. A 2 oz load of 7s only contains 365 pellets, whereas the same 2 oz load of 9s has 720, and the 9s still have the ability to kill way farther than I will shoot. TSS 7s for turkeys would be like shooting lead 2s for doves. Yes, a lead 2 would kill a dove way out there (122 yds) if you get lucky enough for a pellet to hit it. Same principle.
Thanks for the info.
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General rule of thumb with turkey shells is that if your gun is shooting "well" it will deliver about %50 of your TOTAL PELLET Payload in a 10 inch cir at 40 yds ...some will even go tighter
It was mentioned that the #7 tss shell has 365 ...so essentially if you were to get 180 that should be in the whereabouts of "optimum" performance
IMO the most important thing is that a turkey hunters. gun shoots accurately..if your off by even 6 inches that 180 will now look like 100 to 70 .....off by a foot ...it will look like 40 ...winds blowing the pattern ....fowled up barrel etc....it starts going south fast
Money wise this trade was way off in your favor
Your patterns don't sound like tss patterns
if you have any left I'd look at them close to see if he may have dumped the tss and put some other type of pellet in and recrimped, or open 1 up and check it out
Quote from: crow on April 09, 2022, 11:31:11 AM
Money wise this trade was way off in your favor
Your patterns don't sound like tss patterns
if you have any left I'd look at them close to see if he may have dumped the tss and put some other type of pellet in and recrimped, or open 1 up and check it out
I know the guy who traded me well enough to know such an underhanded act is not possible. I actually offered to sell him a box at my cost of $25 but he insisted to trade the Federal TSS shells as a way to say thanks as 12ga 3.5" #4's WLBXR's have not been available OTC anywhere near where either he or I live since I can not recall when. Of the last 150 WLBXR's I have bought all have been from online suppliers.
I just so happen to have several more boxes of the 12ga 3.5" 2oz #4's but he only wanted one box.
WLBXR's 2oz #4 shot patterns well in my guns but the shells with 2oz #5 pattern just better enough I use them instead.
:icon_thumright:
Quote from: DMTJAGER on April 09, 2022, 11:43:29 PM
Quote from: crow on April 09, 2022, 11:31:11 AM
Money wise this trade was way off in your favor
Your patterns don't sound like tss patterns
if you have any left I'd look at them close to see if he may have dumped the tss and put some other type of pellet in and recrimped, or open 1 up and check it out
I know the guy who traded me well enough to know such an underhanded act is not possible. I actually offered to sell him a box at my cost of $25 but he insisted to trade the Federal TSS shells as a way to say thanks as 12ga 3.5" #4's WLBXR's have not been available OTC anywhere near where either he or I live since I can not recall when. Of the last 150 WLBXR's I have bought all have been from online suppliers.
I just so happen to have several more boxes of the 12ga 3.5" 2oz #4's but he only wanted one box.
WLBXR's 2oz #4 shot patterns well in my guns but the shells with 2oz #5 pattern just better enough I use them instead.
You know it sure seems like you got a hold of some TSS 3rd degree shells.
Could be wrong shells in the boxes. from the factory or someone in the store swapped the shells.
Since they are no good patterns , you could cut one open, one of those 9's and measure or count those pellets.
Quote from: owlhoot on April 10, 2022, 10:48:37 AM
Quote from: DMTJAGER on April 09, 2022, 11:43:29 PM
Quote from: crow on April 09, 2022, 11:31:11 AM
Money wise this trade was way off in your favor
Your patterns don't sound like tss patterns
if you have any left I'd look at them close to see if he may have dumped the tss and put some other type of pellet in and recrimped, or open 1 up and check it out
I know the guy who traded me well enough to know such an underhanded act is not possible. I actually offered to sell him a box at my cost of $25 but he insisted to trade the Federal TSS shells as a way to say thanks as 12ga 3.5" #4's WLBXR's have not been available OTC anywhere near where either he or I live since I can not recall when. Of the last 150 WLBXR's I have bought all have been from online suppliers.
I just so happen to have several more boxes of the 12ga 3.5" 2oz #4's but he only wanted one box.
WLBXR's 2oz #4 shot patterns well in my guns but the shells with 2oz #5 pattern just better enough I use them instead.
You know it sure seems like you got a hold of some TSS 3rd degree shells.
Could be wrong shells in the boxes. from the factory or someone in the store swapped the shells.
Since they are no good patterns , you could cut one open, one of those 9's and measure or count those pellets.
The shells were red and had "TSS" printed on each one so they were legit Federal TSS shells.
Quote from: DMTJAGER on April 15, 2022, 09:14:46 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on April 10, 2022, 10:48:37 AM
Quote from: DMTJAGER on April 09, 2022, 11:43:29 PM
Quote from: crow on April 09, 2022, 11:31:11 AM
Money wise this trade was way off in your favor
Your patterns don't sound like tss patterns
if you have any left I'd look at them close to see if he may have dumped the tss and put some other type of pellet in and recrimped, or open 1 up and check it out
I know the guy who traded me well enough to know such an underhanded act is not possible. I actually offered to sell him a box at my cost of $25 but he insisted to trade the Federal TSS shells as a way to say thanks as 12ga 3.5" #4's WLBXR's have not been available OTC anywhere near where either he or I live since I can not recall when. Of the last 150 WLBXR's I have bought all have been from online suppliers.
I just so happen to have several more boxes of the 12ga 3.5" 2oz #4's but he only wanted one box.
WLBXR's 2oz #4 shot patterns well in my guns but the shells with 2oz #5 pattern just better enough I use them instead.
You know it sure seems like you got a hold of some TSS 3rd degree shells.
Could be wrong shells in the boxes. from the factory or someone in the store swapped the shells.
Since they are no good patterns , you could cut one open, one of those 9's and measure or count those pellets.
The shells were red and had "TSS" printed on each one so they were legit Federal TSS shells.
Yep, 3rd degree shells I've seen are marked pretty large 3rd degree.
I very well could be wrong, but based on my previous experience with Federal turkey loads the cause for the poor TSS performance I experienced could be as simple as Federal simply doesn't produce as good of turkey ammunition as they do rifle. And based on my witnessing my friends rifles shooting Federal rifle ammo IMO no one makes better mass produced rifle ammo than Federal, as good? yes but not better.
I really got the turkey hunting bug bad in the late 80's and by 1991-92 was are still are a full on turkey hunting addict. I forget what hunting magazine I read this in, most likely was Turkey & Turkey Hunting but might have been another hunting magazine about the importance of taking apart, inspecting and evaluating your turkey shells of choice. It listed the specifications that you should inspect for. To do all my patterning tests I used a 12ga 3" Remington Express with both a 21" Rem-choke factory barrel and two different Remington factory XF turkey chokes, and a 24" 870 12ga 3" Hasting's AM turkey barrel with straight rifling and a Hasting's XF turkey choke. I did all patterning at 40 yards using 40"x40" sheets of cardboard I got from work.
I went out and bought one box each of 12ga 3" of Winchester Supreme XX Turkey shells, Federal, Remington, and Active turkey shells. During the same time frame I did at one point try Turkey shells made by Hornady but I do not remember doing all these tests only patterning them and they didn't pattern as well as the Winchesters so I never used them to hunt with.
If memory serves me these are the tests and evaluations I performed and I'm sure I'm forgetting one or two:
>Inspect all shell's crimp for tightness, quality and overall consistency note any imperfections or if the shell allowed any shot or buffering to leak out or if I using minimal pressure could get the crimp to fail.
>One at a time, take apart a minimum of 5 shells from each ammo manufacturer & record all the fallowing data:
>Count each pellet for a total number of pellets get an average for the 5 shells note in %'s any variances in pellet numbers from shell to shell
>Inspect pellets for uniformity of roundness record # of misshaped and or malformed pellets I found record how many found and what % they represented of the total # of pellets of each individual shell
>Inspect buffering compound (if any was used) for condition and as I pored out the shot noting if buffering had settled away from the shoot leaving any shot un-buffered
>This next step wasn't recommended and I thought it up and did on my own: As I was (and still are), a diehard reloader by then and owned a RCBS 1010 BB scale I separated all of the buffering compound from the shot and weighed both the buffering compound and shot and record those two number to be used to note if any, the inconsistencies in the amount/weight of buffering compound or shot used in the shells.
Unfortunately I long ago lost all the date from that experiment, but I do recall some of what I found.
I did the Federal shells first
First thing I found with the Federal turkey shells that shocked and astonished me was the Federal shells had by a significant margin the largest number/percentage of malformed out of round and misshaped pellets of all the five ammunition manufactures I tested. What I do distinctly recall was how many of the pellets were of a tear drop in shape and missing most if not all their copper plating on the tail of the tear drop. Also the Federals had the second worse percentage of inconsistent pellet numbers and accordingly second most inconsistent weight in pellets. I distinctly remember finding numerous what can only be described as "shot clusters" or 3-5 pellets stuck together in clumps or clusters. I also noticed the buffering compound had settled away from the pellets to a slight degree in 2 of the five shells inspected but I couldn't determine if it was a factor as none of the the Federal shells fired ever produced an acceptable pattern.
The Federal turkey shells patterned second worse right behind the Actives and I wouldn't ever hunt with them.
I did the Active shells next.
The Active shells were at that time IIRC the only 12ga 3" shells that advertised 2oz (might have even been 2.25oz but I just don't remember) of shot and I found out how they accomplished this as they had no buffering compound and were a close second to the Federals in the amount of deformed pellets. The Actives were made using plane lead and not copper plated shot.
It was no surprise the Actives produced the worst and most and inconsistent patterns and could not be used IMO to make shots past 40 yards and even 40 was stretching it also like the Federals, I wouldn't hunt with the Actives. Actives also had shot clusters like the Federal's but not as many.
Remington's were 3rd
Overall the Remington shells were 90%+ as good in all respects as the Winchesters and patterned almost as good as the Winchesters but the Winchesters were just that much better at 40 yards out of MY guns I chose to hunt with them for obvious reasons. Having said that in the advent I couldn't get Winchester shells I would have hunted with the Remingtons, and unlike the Federals and Actives IMHO due to their high quality and consistency had the potential to shoot very well out of a different gun and or choke combination.
I did the Winchesters last. The Winchesters were undoubtedly the best in all best in all aspects. Had the highest percentages of well formed pellets, VERY few deformed pellets most consistent weight and number of pellets, most consistent weight of buffering compound, found no shells where the buffering compound had settled away from the shot and no surprise produced the best and most consistent 40 yard patterns.
Once I determined the Winchester shells were best I tested them and their closest runner up the Remington's at 45 and 50 yards and even though the Remington's did well and produced acceptable patterns, the Winchester Supremes' were always just that much better.
I hunted with the 12ga 3" 1.75oz #5 shot Winchester Supremes for years even after I bought my 12ga 3.5" 870 ESM and still used the same Winchester copper plated turkey shells but in 3.5" 2oz #5 shot version with great results. Then Winchester came out with ( I hope I'm describing them correctly) their polymer coated tungsten heavier than lead shells and tried them. All I can say is these new 12ga 3.5" 2oz of #5 shot HTL Winchester shells were the best patterning and performing turkey shells I ever shot. And yes I did take several apart and do the same tests and evaluations as described above and again these HTL Winchester shells proved to be just as well put together as their standard copper plated lead Supreme turkey shells.
I found out to late to buy any more that Winchester had discontinued production of their HTL turkey shells after they came out with WLBXR shells because if I had known I would've bought at least three cases of them for my sons and I to use I liked then so much. And I still like them better than my current favorite WLBXR shells.
So the only conclusion I can come up with based more on experience and not mostly guessing as to why Federal TSS performs not as well VS other TSS shells from companied like Apex, Foxtrot or Hevi-18 etc is they just aren't using the correct components in their turkey shells.
Yes I've done a lot more testing than most turkey hunters and I've shot over 100 WLBXR shells in patter testing but that all combined most certainly an expert doesn't make me to any measurable degree. But it does prove what works best from my now three dedicated turkey guns, one 870's one Benneli SN and one 835 and that shell is the WLBXR and not Federal TSS which shot unacceptably poor patterns from all three guns and the WLBXR shot significantly better than TSS.
If I ever choose to again give TSS a try it just wont be Federal TSS. I've seen videos dozens of videos where Federal TSS lives up to all the hype so I know Federal TSS can produce great patterns, just not in my guns and choke combinations and at $12-$14 a shot I'm unwilling to invest that much money in TSS shells and AM chokes to maybe find a combination that works.
Any chance you might have the original Federal TSS shells with the old Flitecontrol wads? When we first tested them when they came out, they performed poorly, and much like you are seeing. They changed the wad design in the 2s, and it made them work in many more guns and chokes, but I still shoot Apex now.
Quote from: bwhana on April 17, 2022, 06:05:44 PM
Any chance you might have the original Federal TSS shells with the old Flitecontrol wads? When we first tested them when they came out, they performed poorly, and much like you are seeing. They changed the wad design in the 2s, and it made them work in many more guns and chokes, but I still shoot Apex now.
In all honesty I can not answer your question as I have no idea when they were made. I had the shells since late march of 2021 and best guess based on what the original owner told me he bought them the year before that so they were at least manufactured back in 2020 possibly 2019.
I might have an empty box in my ammo range box as I sometimes save empty boxes for future reference and will go check to see if I have it.
Did you happen to find that box? I am just curious, and I would really like to figure out what was wrong with those shells. I have shot the Federal TSS in several guns/gauge with no issue at all. They had awesome patterns. Not quite as strong as APEX, but very good patterns. I always start with a squeaky clean barrel too.
Have a good one
Bo
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