I foresee non-resident opportunities being limited in the future. If I was a resident, I'd be contacting my wildlife officials to help put a curb to this growth, at least on the public land side of things.
(https://i.imgur.com/bbOApcL.png)
Everybody who owns 5 acres in FL is claiming to be an outfitter these days, I'd like to see the harvest rates comparisons for those years.
Speaking as a FL native and resident for 45 years I believe they really haven't a clue how to, nor do they care much for managing our native wildlife. Turkeys here are but a drop in the bucket compared to our fisheries, beaches, golf courses, theme parks, etc, etc.
It's a shame, but the way people are moving here in droves, habitat in disappearing and the lack of open lands I think the reality is that if somethings do not change it won't just be the opportunity for non-residents and residents that will be disappearing but the actual turkeys themselves.
Unfortunately, I think the attitude of our wildlife commission is mostly apathetic at best. The only management they really do is severely regulate hunters through seasons and limit opportunity. In some areas we still have a good amount of birds, but it's an absolute miracle and does not have anything to do with our wildlife or turkey management practices. FFWC has no idea! I could go on and on and on... Please don't bring up the NWTF and their involvement in FL either because that's a joke as well.
I find it ironic that Florida boasts about the most public land East of the Mississippi river, but most of it you have to draw a quota tag for to turkey hunt. What you don't have to draw a tag, for is packed with hunters.
I have virtually zero interest in hunting Florida, too many other opportunities for me and I really don't care what color his feathers are.
Fl. is safe from me for the foreseeable future! Have at it boys!
I killed a bird about 30 years ago at Green Swamp WMA - that place
was a freakin' zoo back then. Most overcrowded place I've ever seen.
You had to put your truck in line the evening before to ensure you
could hunt. I ain't been back.
Thanks Dave
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 05:23:48 PM
I find it ironic that Florida boasts about the most public land East of the Mississippi river, but most of it you have to draw a quota tag for to turkey hunt. What you don't have to draw a tag, for is packed with hunters.
100% correct. Many of the WMAs have quotas of as little as 3 per hunt. With the preference point system you may draw once every five years. Having lived in three states and hunted probably six I can say uniquivictly there is no public hunting harder than Florida.
Quote from: Roost 1 on June 18, 2021, 02:41:11 PM
Everybody who owns 5 acres in FL is claiming to be an outfitter these days, I'd like to see the harvest rates comparisons for those years.
You won't see a comparison since FL does not do any tag or report on turkey. Some WMAs have check stations but most don't. When you see FL harvest numbers it's a wild a$$ guess. Zero reporting from the five acre private land "guides".
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on June 18, 2021, 01:29:02 PM
I foresee non-resident opportunities being limited in the future. If I was a resident, I'd be contacting my wildlife officials to help put a curb to this growth, at least on the public land side of things.
(https://i.imgur.com/bbOApcL.png)
Any chance that graph shows that in 2020 covid hit an Florida limited access to the state and hunting lands?
Non-residents didn't go then and for 2021 said we are going this year by golly. Kind of a knee jerk reaction.
Add the ones who planned on 2020 but didn't go with the ones who planned on going 2021.
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 11:29:15 PM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on June 18, 2021, 01:29:02 PM
I foresee non-resident opportunities being limited in the future. If I was a resident, I'd be contacting my wildlife officials to help put a curb to this growth, at least on the public land side of things.
(https://i.imgur.com/bbOApcL.png)
Any chance that graph shows that in 2020 covid hit an Florida limited access to the state and hunting lands?
Non-residents didn't go then and for 2021 said we are going this year by golly. Kind of a knee jerk reaction.
Add the ones who planned on 2020 but didn't go with the ones who planned on going 2021.
FL did limit some access on some public lands during 2020, but I can't remember if any completely closed to turkey hunting. I do know several campgrounds across the WMA system were closed.
Most states saw a slight dip in non-resident sales in 2020 due to COVID. The uncertainty of the disease, travel restrictions, etc.
Hey Dave-
Was the money you made off of YouTube Florida videos worth all the attention you brought?
Quote from: joey46 on June 18, 2021, 10:50:59 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 05:23:48 PM
I find it ironic that Florida boasts about the most public land East of the Mississippi river, but most of it you have to draw a quota tag for to turkey hunt. What you don't have to draw a tag, for is packed with hunters.
100% correct. Many of the WMAs have quotas of as little as 3 per hunt. With the preference point system you may draw once every five years. Having lived in three states and hunted probably six I can say uniquivictly there is no public hunting harder than Florida.
Point creep is about to become a huge issue. I've got a few points saved but I think I'm going to keep acquiring them for a few years because I'm afraid it will become a 1-3 time draw for a lifetime. Something needs to be done for the residents as this is completely unfair. Even being a nonresident, I really like how the special opp is set up.
Quote from: Fdept56 on June 19, 2021, 08:48:23 AM
Quote from: joey46 on June 18, 2021, 10:50:59 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 05:23:48 PM
I find it ironic that Florida boasts about the most public land East of the Mississippi river, but most of it you have to draw a quota tag for to turkey hunt. What you don't have to draw a tag, for is packed with hunters.
100% correct. Many of the WMAs have quotas of as little as 3 per hunt. With the preference point system you may draw once every five years. Having lived in three states and hunted probably six I can say uniquivictly there is no public hunting harder than Florida.
Point creep is about to become a huge issue. I've got a few points saved but I think I'm going to keep acquiring them for a few years because I'm afraid it will become a 1-3 time draw for a lifetime. Something needs to be done for the residents as this is completely unfair. Even being a nonresident, I really like how the special opp is set up.
They set up normal quota hunts like special opps, it really will be a 1-3 time draw for a lifetime. As much as it sucks, it needs to be done for the residents.
I have the draw data from 2017-2021 and its UGLY, especially for south Florida. Hunts that you used to could draw every other year or so in the early 2010s are now taking 3-4 points and applications for certain areas have nearly TRIPLED from spring 2017 numbers.
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 11:29:15 PM
Any chance that graph shows that in 2020 covid hit an Florida limited access to the state and hunting lands?
Non-residents didn't go then and for 2021 said we are going this year by golly. Kind of a knee jerk reaction.
Add the ones who planned on 2020 but didn't go with the ones who planned on going 2021.
That's a part of it. The outfitters have to recoup some of that money lost from 2020. I think a lot people didn't travel due to Covid and then 2021 season FL was one of the first states open and took the brunt of it as a result. Next 2 years will be a better gauge. However, I think the amount of traveling hunters has gone up with the ability to "work from home" or the woods or wherever these days.
Being honest, I've been pretty mobile and flexible with my work schedule for a few years and Covid only made it easier and or more acceptable in some aspects. I hunted a bunch in 2020 and even more in 2021! Mainly because I missed a trip where the primary state closed to NR hunters and kind of made up for it this year. With my ability to do so I'll probably continue each season and I'm sure there's a bunch of other guys just like me.
The thing that people don't see in numbers in FL and I'm sure many other states is how many people were in the woods in 2020 even on highly regulated public land. There was a ton of people in the woods in FL from what I saw in 2020 7 days a week, that you don't normally see that were likely off work. Other states might be different and I know of the ones that I hunt more regularly they are vastly different when it comes to game management. But, the FFWC does such a great job (insert sarcasm) at setting regs using the main strategy to simply limit the avg law abiding hunter. There's lots of assumptions in that! However, they do an absolute crap job at actually enforcing those quotas on probably 75-80 of those lands and have no idea how many people show up to hunt during and even after those quotas. I've witnessed this for years and 2020 was a zoo on public land for mostly residents in FL. There is no way that all the people I witnessed were legally allowed to hunt those areas and FFWC has no clue how many hunters, how many birds, what the harvest rate is, etc.
The big reason is there is just enough spot light on the osceola turkey that it generates dollars and revenue for travel and it makes great photo opps for the "big dogs" of the commission and "conservation" organizations. The message is kind of like Nebraska, "We have lots of turkeys and they're doing great! Come here and shoot all you want". Sure... when you're paying out your A$$ to do it!
Seems like the management philosophy is, "what you don't know won't kill you". Well, when you don't know how many, what's happening and or where it's happening then your management philosophy is working. And when those $2,000-3,000 turkeys keep falling each and every year and the photo opps keep rolling, "We're all good"! But until those ranches and the "bid dogs" start feeling the squeeze there's going to continue to be that ignorance is bliss mentality in FL.
I'm seeing a few questions here - I think.
FL Special OP Hunts cost $5.00 per application and they have a 10% non-resident limit or one total non-res if the allowable number is less than ten. They are transferrable but, if sold, sold "supposedly" only for face value. Big scams occur here and the rules are often disputed. You will see permits openly advertised as a face value sale but only if you additionally purchase a Bic Pen from the seller for $500.00. Almost funny. Lots of unofficial "guides" will also take non-residents to Special Op Hunts using their (guides') guest permits. Cash only - no credit cards - LOL. Only one bird will be allowed so you hope the guide isn't carrying a gun. The permit holder (guide) also has to stay on the area with his guest so don't pay in advance for an entire hunt. Special Op hunts will have manned check stations. I often hear of guys spending $500.00 just for chances to hunt some of these areas. They intend to make a few $$$.
Regular Quota Hunts - a free for all in which residents have no advantage. Florida residents think this sucks. You won't draw a decent WMA without multiple preference points unless you luck into one in a re-draw. Re-draws another gamed system that I won't even try and explain now. Regular Quota Hunts can not be transferred or sold. They will allow a "guest".
Limits - Never seen a Special Op Hunt with a limit of other than ONE. If the permit holder shoots a bird you're all done. If a guest hunter shoots a bird you're all done. One means one.
Regular Quota Hunts - different limits - some are 1/1 some are 2/1. A 1/1 means one bird per permit. A 2/1 means two per permit but only one per hunter. Sorta self explanatory but the hunter drawing the permit still must stay on the area if he wants his guest to continue hunting whether he's tagged out or not. My hunting buddy and I normally apply for the 2/1. I drew a 2/1 hunt in 2017 and used my points. He saved his and we should draw something decent next season.
Isn't Florida fun and they still refuse to do an actual tag and report on turkeys. In a few more years this will be a :TrainWreck1:
Man I believe you are right on Gobstopper
I too the life of me, can't understand why ever state doesn't require all turkeys checked in/registered. The yearly numbers in themselves are a tool for the state biologist to use.
I went down and hunted the green swamp one day. Can't remember what time it was when I pulled up to the closed gate, but it was way early. I was the fifth vehicle, maybe 6th in line. The line was stretched around the turn and you could just see headlights.... Probably as close to a feeling of setting on a Nascar starting line as I will ever get.
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 19, 2021, 09:43:40 AM
Man I believe you are right on Gobstopper
I too the life of me, can't understand why ever state doesn't require all turkeys checked in/registered. The yearly numbers in themselves are a tool for the state biologist to use.
I went down and hunted the green swamp one day. Can't remember what time it was when I pulled up to the closed gate, but it was way early. I was the fifth vehicle, maybe 6th in line. The line was stretched around the turn and you could just see headlights.... Probably as close to a feeling of setting on a Nascar starting line as I will ever get.
I hope you pre-scouted and put a few hundred yards of flagging tape all around your chosen spot. That's pretty much a Florida WMA tradition. LOL.
I rode in there the evening before, stopped at ever culvert to look at the alligators. Seen a couple spots that looked good, didn't use any flagging. But, I did see it. Seen that many times here in WV, always thought it would be safer for those fellows to stay on the road.
Quote from: Dtrkyman on June 18, 2021, 05:32:52 PM
I have virtually zero interest in hunting Florida, too many other opportunities for me and I really don't care what color his feathers are.
Fl. is safe from me for the foreseeable future! Have at it boys!
Yup. Hunted Osceolas four times over the years. All four hunts were on private property (three by invitation, one paid) and all four were some of the easiest turkey hunts I have ever been on. After killing a gobbler on private land on the last trip I made, we hunted public for a few days, putting up with all of the stuff already mentioned. I have no interest in going back to either buy an easy turkey or compete with the public-land crazies.
I, too, do not know what the appeal is,...but you guys are welcome to it! ;D :toothy12:
I think most states saw an uptick in sales of Turkey tags. I think much of it was due to the lockdown and Cabin Fever. Folks want to get out. I normally head to Myrtle Beach right after Labor Day and spend a few days. The kids are back in school, prices drop and in 20 years I have never had a problem. I started looking for rooms the following week of Labor Day and most of the rooms are sold out til the end of the month.
Agree - would not be a good idea to make long term decisions on limits and regulations based on 2020. Still think a week or so postponement of opening day everywhere would not hurt. Florida has some youth seasons opening in February. That's almost silly.
Glad I don't have to go back there lol. There are several states I wish to visit...that im scared to visit now....florida is just one less.
1) I believe they limit the out of state awarded permits to 10% max per quota unit
2)I have 8 years worth of preference points (8 points) and still no permit for the area im looking to get , the areas are declining in quality due to hunting pressure
3 ) every po-dunk hillbilly with next to no property, a lease , trespass or the like is a "guide" BE CAUTIOUS
4) read the writings of Dr. Lovett Williams..the upmost expert and authority on the subject of where and what is a real Osceola...not some keyboard hero who wants your money
5) I warned people 20 years ago the bottom will fall out on Osceola hunting ...sadly we are at 22million Florida residents now , ot wont last long and when the bottom drops out it will be fast
6) the fwc has no idea what they are doing regarding managing the turkey program..CLUELESS I bet if you asked them at the board meeting what the harvest figures are on the wmas' for the STATE they wouldn't even know ..btw it ussualy hovers arround 700 , thats right only 700
Quote from: Old Gobbler on June 22, 2021, 09:35:21 PM
1) I believe they limit the out of state awarded permits to 10% max per quota unit
2)I have 8 years worth of preference points (8 points) and still no permit for the area im looking to get , the areas are declining in quality due to hunting pressure
3 ) every po-dunk hillbilly with next to no property, a lease , trespass or the like is a "guide" BE CAUTIOUS
4) read the writings of Dr. Lovett Williams..the upmost expert and authority on the subject of where and what is a real Osceola...not some keyboard hero who wants your money
5) I warned people 20 years ago the bottom will fall out on Osceola hunting ...sadly we are at 22million Florida residents now , ot wont last long and when the bottom drops out it will be fast
6) the fwc has no idea what they are doing regarding managing the turkey program..CLUELESS I bet if you asked them at the board meeting what the harvest figures are on the wmas' for the STATE they wouldn't even know ..btw it ussualy hovers arround 700 , thats right only 700
My good sir, you summarized very well what I think I was ranting in my posts earlier.
So, should we start a new thread on... What we as FL resident and non-resident turkey hunters should and are going to do about it? Come on man I'm game, lets make some noise, kick some @$$ and at the very least fight like heck regarding turkeys, our public lands and hunting in what really is a great state. If we don't we will surely soon be consumed by the masses and become just a passing inaudible voice in the distance.
A forum such as OG along with other media outlets with an established platform could be very useful in banding together as well as raising awareness. I'm open to suggestions and ideas and I'm in for it.
I've been pouring over the WMA draw data from spring 2018 through now. It is taking a lot of time to put it all together in a presentable form, but i'm slowly getting there.
Here's a highlight though:
After a certain YouTuber put south FL WMAs on the radar, applications for some south FL WMAs have nearly doubled just from 2018 thru 2020. They can't blame that on COVID since the application periods were Nov. 2017 and Nov. 2019.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on June 23, 2021, 12:40:29 PM
I've been pouring over the WMA draw data from spring 2018 through now. It is taking a lot of time to put it all together in a presentable form, but i'm slowly getting there.
Here's a highlight though:
After a certain YouTuber put south FL WMAs on the radar, applications for some south FL WMAs have nearly doubled just from 2018 thru 2020. They can't blame that on COVID since the application periods were Nov. 2017 and Nov. 2019.
be interesting if data is available for how many people have hunted big cypress in those years
Thanks to Social media and youtube heroes. Oh Well, at least they got to sit up beside a tree and pose with a dead turkey and a cigar that they don't inhale...sort of like junior high school.
Digging through FWC regs. Don't see a 10% non-res limit on anything other than Special Op Hunts. I "think" the regular quotas could conceivably be all non-res. Odds of that are slim although some quotas have only three permits per hunt. I'm such a friendly guy I get occasional P Ms from all over the Country. Washington State the farthest. The Osceola magic continues. If any State needs tag and report it's Florida.
Quote from: FLGobstopper on June 18, 2021, 04:55:11 PM
Speaking as a FL native and resident for 45 years I believe they really haven't a clue how to, nor do they care much for managing our native wildlife. Turkeys here are but a drop in the bucket compared to our fisheries, beaches, golf courses, theme parks, etc, etc.
It's a shame, but the way people are moving here in droves, habitat in disappearing and the lack of open lands I think the reality is that if somethings do not change it won't just be the opportunity for non-residents and residents that will be disappearing but the actual turkeys themselves.
Unfortunately, I think the attitude of our wildlife commission is mostly apathetic at best. The only management they really do is severely regulate hunters through seasons and limit opportunity. In some areas we still have a good amount of birds, but it's an absolute miracle and does not have anything to do with our wildlife or turkey management practices. FFWC has no idea! I could go on and on and on... Please don't bring up the NWTF and their involvement in FL either because that's a joke as well.
I totally agree with you. :icon_thumright:
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.