I am in NO WAY AGAINST anyone putting a scope on their favorite turkey slayer but was wondering is it really an advantage? I have seen the popularity of scopes grow big time over the last couple of years but I have been very skeptical about putting one on my shotgun; I am not against change and it may be that I need an education on this subject;
Ya'll might change this ol' man mind if you can truly prove why it's better to have one; ok, let me have it............... :TrainWreck1:................rem
Get some glasses, they will solve your problem.
Well if you got a shotgun that will shoot deadcenter patterns with your open bead at all yardages I wouldn't worry about getting a scope. But most factory beads won't allow you to do this. My 870 is close, but it still shoots a hair off it seems. I may be putting a Tasco Tru Brite sight on it next year. My 835 is worse yet and that's why I have a Tasco dot sight on it. You still have to put the dot on the intended target and aim and hold steady, but no more worrying about your pattern being a tad high or low or left or right or a combination of these.
Been thinking about putting one on my super mag next year also, don't know for sure if it will help or not just looks cool. ;D
I added a Simmon 4x32 to my 835 this year. I was not sure when I did it. Did not know if I would like it and grew up where a shotgun is point and shoot with little aim, unless you are shooting slugs. When I added the scope my father-in-law gave me some grief, lol. After shooting my first bird with it and then a second I am going to get a new 20 gauge 870 express this off season and I am going to scope it. I feel very confident with it and it has given me new confidence in shooting. Do not regret the decision. Some people do not like anything other than a bead and others will swear by a red dot, try one out and use what fits you. Good luck!
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Well,cataracts.6 tears to my retinas,and a macular edema have taken their toll on my peepers. I cannot see the bead on the end of a barrel. Glasses do not help with shooting at all. So in order to continue doing what I love to do,I have scopes on all my guns. I'm even thinking about building a dedicated 20 ga. singles shot with 4x for squirrels.
I don't think its any better just a matter of personal preference....I used the new Nikon turkey pro this. Year and really liked it....much better on my old eyes.
Dale
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That is one mean lookin shotgun. I really do like it. :z-guntootsmiley:
Because when they get so close your shot is about the size of a golf ball it would be nice to have something with a little more precision.
At least I am now thinking of a dot type sight. Yup you guessed it I know first hand this year :TooFunny:
Quote from: madarchery on May 23, 2011, 02:01:27 PM
Because when they get so close your shot is about the size of a golf ball it would be nice to have something with a little more precision.
Yep.
Not to mention I hunt predators at night and really like the red dot for that reason as well. I have an Aimpoint 9000sc on my Mossberg 835 and Benelli SBE 2 and love them.
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I have glasses and with them I cannot see the 2 beads on the barre and the bird at the same time.
i put a scope on my 1300 years ago and can put the X dead on then heads :newmascot:
brian
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IMO, while scopes work, they don't offer enough improvement to be worth the weight, bulk, cost and effort.
I'm old enough that I don't hunt with open sights anymore with a rifle. I do use a set of adjustable fiber optic open sights on my turkey gun and I can put the red blur between the two green blurs well enough to hit a turkey every time.
Calling in a turkey is hard. Shooting a turkey is easy.
The target is more or less stationary.
The target is 50 yards or less away.
Tight pattern or no, you're shooting at it with a shotgun. 1/4 MOA accuracy isn't necessary.
It's the easiest shot in hunting. A scope is not required.
Natman you would think it aint hard, but in reality it can be. with tight patterns and bead sights at 40 yards if you are not POA POI then you can miss. Also even though I have perfect 20/20, I still missed a bird because of a limb at 35 yds. Never saw the limb until I got down there. I dont notice the extra weight. Seriously, If a few extra ounces add too much weight, then they need to do some exercises. To me it is way easier to walk out the woods with an extra 20 lbs, LOL!
I have a Simmons on my 11-87 and have for 15 years. If I were to buy one now, it would probably be one of the red dots. The big advantage that I see is when you get one of those leaning shots, when you tilt the gun because he came from a weird direction. I would have a problem, on those shots, making sure everything is lined up. With the scope, when the crosshairs are on him, you are on him.
The only time I don't like them is on rainy days. I have never lost complete vision through the Simmons, but the rain drops on the lens make it hard sometimes.
I have a Nikon Monarch 1.5 - 4 X 20 on my 835 and will never go back. I keep it set on 2x. Last year I moved when I shouldn't have and spooked a bird that was coming in silent. I swung on him in some thicker trees and had no trouble getting the scope on him. Dropped him at 35 steps. I don't trust myself to keep the beads lined up and my head planted.
You can only shoot as well as you can see. I started with a single bead, then two beads and then rifle sights and finally to a scope. Nothing beats a scope IMO.
Quote from: WyoHunter on May 24, 2011, 07:25:22 PM
You can only shoot as well as you can see. I started with a single bead, then two beads and then rifle sights and finally to a scope. Nothing beats a scope IMO.
This is my opinion on this as well. Are scope/red dots absolutely necessary, no, not for most unless you have bad vision problems. Would some sort of optic be helpful to the majority of us, yes. After a few misses this year do to over excitement and odd shooting angles, I'm going to a red dot for next season. A scope would be a better choice for vision and clarity, but the added weight is the deal breaker for me, so a red dot it is.
Any little thing we can do to give ourselves an extra advantage is helpful. We are already a heavy underdog in the woods, every little bit helps...
I grew up with scopes on nearly every rifle Dad had and the rifles he gave me. Scopes just come natural to me when holding a gun even on fast moving objects. Some folks that aren't used to scopes seem to have a bit of a problem finding things in intense situations, but using one often will have the scope on target by just pointing the gun. After a while you get to where you can find things instantly even if the scope is set on high power and the target is at close range.
The only drawback to having a scope on a turkey rig is the added weight. You are looking at at least 13oz of extra weight on the low end, while you could only have 2-3oz by going with a reflex. For that reason, I use mostly reflex red dots. I would much rather use a scope and if anyone ever comes out with one that would only weigh around 8oz including the base and rings, I'd replace my reflex sights.
Scopes don't rely on batteries and work better in low light than reflex or open sights.
Whether reflex, red dot tube, or a scope, they are all much better for turkey hunting than just a bead or open sights IMO. With beads or open sights, you must take extra time to make sure everything is in perfect alignment before the shot and that is very difficult under intense situations at times. With a scope you simply put the X or dot on their head and pull the trigger. Doesn't get much easier and we need all the help we can get with tight turkey loads and intense situations.
Quote from: Reloader on May 25, 2011, 10:40:57 AM
I grew up with scopes on nearly every rifle Dad had and the rifles he gave me. Scopes just come natural to me when holding a gun even on fast moving objects. Some folks that aren't used to scopes seem to have a bit of a problem finding things in intense situations, but using one often will have the scope on target by just pointing the gun. After a while you get to where you can find things instantly even if the scope is set on high power and the target is at close range.
The only drawback to having a scope on a turkey rig is the added weight. You are looking at at least 13oz of extra weight on the low end, while you could only have 2-3oz by going with a reflex. For that reason, I use mostly reflex red dots. I would much rather use a scope and if anyone ever comes out with one that would only weigh around 8oz including the base and rings, I'd replace my reflex sights.
Scopes don't rely on batteries and work better in low light than reflex or open sights.
Whether reflex, red dot tube, or a scope, they are all much better for turkey hunting than just a bead or open sights IMO. With beads or open sights, you must take extra time to make sure everything is in perfect alignment before the shot and that is very difficult under intense situations at times. With a scope you simply put the X or dot on their head and pull the trigger. Doesn't get much easier and we need all the help we can get with tight turkey loads and intense situations.
I couldn't have said it better.
I have used a red dot and liked it a lot. I have also used a scope and like it as well. I would pick the scope over other choices just because of the possibility of dead batteries. I have experienced this with the red dot, but was able to find the beads under the scope mount and kill the turkey anyway. I took it off my 870 and tried a Leupold 2-7 x 33. I killed a few turkeys with it, but decided I prefer beads.
It is definitely a matter of personal preference. Sighting devices can certainly aid if POA is different than POI.
O.k. here's my 2 cents...
My eyes aren't what they used to be. That said, I use a scope on a rifle but not on a shotgun. I put Williams Fire Sights on my 870 and love them. At the range that my 870 is effective, I still don't have a problem seeing the bird and lining up my shot. The Fire Sights are basically rifle sights and are windage adjustable, so there is no POA/POI issue.
Rifles? Different story. A few years ago I stared down the iron sights of a 30-30 trying to grow an extra point on a little fork horn deer on public land about 50-60 yards away. After several minutes of unsuccessful attempts at imaginary antler point production I raised my head. My eyes were "crossed" or something where I couldn't focus. I worried for the next few minutes as I wondered if this was going to be a permanent problem... not a good feeling! After that experience, you won't find me faulting anyone that wants to use a scope on any kind of gun. If it makes you more confident, it will likely make you more successful when the shot opportunity presents.
Burris FastFire II user here and damn proud of it too. I will have to say that after years of hunting without the aid of any type of sighting device that my eyesight went from 20/15 to having to wear glasses for distance and also bifocals. Even with my glasses on the mid bead and end bead on my guns were nothing but a blur so along comes a red dot and problem has been solved. Place the dot on the neck and squeeze the trigger...... Dead Bird!
bird :fud: :newmascot:
I have a Leupold VX2 2x7x33 on my Benelli SBE2 & my Rem 1187 & I love them. IMO once you get the scope dialed in you will never ever have a problem with POI or POA. I think if you want to get the very best pattern out of a shotgun thats possible ,a red dot or scope is the way to go. Of course the right choke & shell helps also. Just my 2cents !
vaturkey :newmascot:
I feel like there are advantages and disadvantages to scope that make them personal preference
Holo sights and red dots however are 100% advantages if you spend the money on quality. wouldnt ever hunt turkey without one ever again even for a day..
Thanks to all that have replied; will be buying a new remington and now will check out a quality scope for it; if I find one that I like it will probably go on; thanks guys and will keep everyone informed on what happens...........rem
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Rempumpman
Glad you came around to our way of thinkin !! :newmascot:
Quote from: LaBiologist on May 24, 2011, 03:12:06 PM
Natman you would think it aint hard, but in reality it can be. with tight patterns and bead sights at 40 yards if you are not POA POI then you can miss.
I'm not quite sure what " if you are not POA POI then you can miss" means, but I'll guess it means if you don't have your sights adjusted so that POA and POI are the same you can miss. That's certainly true, but it's equally true for all types of sights. I agree that it's easy to miss with
bead sights, that's why I favor open sights.
Quote from: LaBiologist on May 24, 2011, 03:12:06 PM
Also even though I have perfect 20/20, I still missed a bird because of a limb at 35 yds. Never saw the limb until I got down there. I dont notice the extra weight. Seriously, If a few extra ounces add too much weight, then they need to do some exercises. To me it is way easier to walk out the woods with an extra 20 lbs, LOL!
I don't know what to say about shooting a limb that's big enough to stop a shotgun pattern.
The weight issue depends where you hunt. If you can drive close to your stand and have to walk a short distance on level ground it's no big deal. Where I hunt it's a fair walk over some steep terrain. The extra pound a scope, rings and bases represents is better spent on a pint of water.
I wouldn't begrudge the weight if I felt if offered any significant advantage to justify it. But I don't.
Quote from: Reloader on May 25, 2011, 10:40:57 AM
I grew up with scopes on nearly every rifle Dad had and the rifles he gave me......
......Scopes don't rely on batteries and work better in low light than reflex or open sights.....
I think the first sentence hits the mark. Scopes are so inexpensive now that they are nearly universal on rifles now. So there's a whole generation who have grown up on them and have rarely, if ever, used open sights and don't feel comfortable with them.
You're going to have to explain how a scope is better in low light. I hope you don't actually believe that a scope "gathers light" because it doesn't. Some scopes
lose less than others, but none provide an image that's brighter than ambient.
To the last response, a good quality scope that has 90% or better light transmission will actually allow you to shoot earlier or later vs what your eyes can see even if you have 20/20 vision. I used to have a Nikno Monarch 3-9x40mm scope on my deer rifle. It had 95% light transmission capability. I could see in very close to darkness light conditions and could see a lot better with this scope than I could see with my 20/20 or better vision with my naked eyes through my glasses alone.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on May 31, 2011, 10:23:32 AM
To the last response, a good quality scope that has 90% or better light transmission will actually allow you to shoot earlier or later vs what your eyes can see even if you have 20/20 vision. I used to have a Nikno Monarch 3-9x40mm scope on my deer rifle. It had 95% light transmission capability. I could see in very close to darkness light conditions and could see a lot better with this scope than I could see with my 20/20 or better vision with my naked eyes through my glasses alone.
95% of ambient is still less than ambient. Besides, since we're talking about scopes for turkey hunting, the hours for legal shooting are limited:
QuoteThe shooting hours for the spring wild turkey season shall be from one-half hour before sunrise to 4:00 p.m.
http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/uplandgamebirdregs.asp#310_5
Half an hour before sunrise I can see fiber optics just fine.
[quote
Half an hour before sunrise I can see fiber optics just fine.
[/quote]
That's what I thought 13 seasons ago until I had a flydown at 30 steps in a canopied river bottom on a cloudy day. Ordered an Aimpoint that afternoon.
You can have 20/20 or even 20/15 vision as I do, but the older the eyeball gets, the less the ability to focus the lens optimally occurs. In lowlight, the focal ratio of the eyeball lens is at its worst because more of the "defective" lens is used-the iris is wide open. That's why it is difficult for some to focus on leaf sight and front sight and target at the same time--the depth of field of vision is restricted. In bright light, the iris closes up and less lens is used and the focal ratio becomes higher giving greater depth of field vision which means, leaf, post and target are in focus. This is the same priniciple that applies to camera lenses and f stop settings. So you guys that are getting older and have to hold the newspaper farther away to read it can either get reading glasses or grow longer arms.
Quote from: gobblergls on June 01, 2011, 07:11:28 AM
Quote
Half an hour before sunrise I can see fiber optics just fine.
That's what I thought 13 seasons ago until I had a flydown at 30 steps in a canopied river bottom on a cloudy day. Ordered an Aimpoint that afternoon.
You can have 20/20 or even 20/15 vision as I do, but the older the eyeball gets, the less the ability to focus the lens optimally occurs. In lowlight, the focal ratio of the eyeball lens is at its worst because more of the "defective" lens is used-the iris is wide open. That's why it is difficult for some to focus on leaf sight and front sight and target at the same time--the depth of field of vision is restricted. In bright light, the iris closes up and less lens is used and the focal ratio becomes higher giving greater depth of field vision which means, leaf, post and target are in focus. This is the same priniciple that applies to camera lenses and f stop settings. So you guys that are getting older and have to hold the newspaper farther away to read it can either get reading glasses or grow longer arms.
I understand the phenomenon you describe in both the depth of field and eye flexibility aspects.
As I said in the first post, I don't hunt with open sights anymore on a rifle. If I look at the target through the distance prescription on my glasses, I can't see the open sights well enough for the level of accuracy required
for a rifle.
However shooting a shotgun, even one a tight turkey choke, is an entirely different proposition. If you put the center of the pattern off by a couple minutes of angle (one inch at 50 yards) it makes no difference when your pattern is 10 inches in diameter. I've hunted with FO open sights for 15 years in every lighting condition imaginable and never had a problem. Being deep in the woods covered by the California coastal fog before sunrise is as dark as it's going to get during legal shooting hours and still be outside!
Please understand that I'm not saying that scopes and red dots don't work. I'm saying that they don't offer enough of an advantage to justify the weight, cost and bulk they add. If, like a previous poster, your eyesight simply can't deal with open sights then that's another matter entirely and you should by all means use an optical sight.
Quote
. I'm saying that they don't offer enough of an advantage to justify the weight, cost and bulk they add.
My Trijicon 6.5 MOA reflex sight weighs 4 ozs. or less than two of my 3" 20 gauge turkey shot shells. It's compact. It is parallax free. It can cost more than the shotgun it sits on. It's worth it to me and that's what counts. I don't have to align anything but dot to head and neck. I don't have 3 points to align. The dot can be centered or on edge at 3, 12, or 6 o'clock in the 1x aperture or all points in between. Where dot sits is where shot falls. My head doesn't have to be positioned the same on the stock to get a proper sight picture everytime I shoot. Sometimes that is not even possible. Light conditions are irrelevant. Couldn't be simpler or faster. With both eyes opened, dot, head, bang! Thousands of turkeys have been killed without it; thousands more will be killed without it. But I prefer the dot. YMMV.
Quote from: gobblergls on June 02, 2011, 12:36:29 PM
Quote
. I'm saying that they don't offer enough of an advantage to justify the weight, cost and bulk they add.
My Trijicon 6.5 MOA reflex sight weighs 4 ozs. or less than two of my 3" 20 gauge turkey shot shells. It's compact. It is parallax free. It can cost more than the shotgun it sits on. It's worth it to me and that's what counts. I don't have to align anything but dot to head and neck. I don't have 3 points to align. The dot can be centered or on edge at 3, 12, or 6 o'clock in the 1x aperture or all points in between. Where dot sits is where shot falls. My head doesn't have to be positioned the same on the stock to get a proper sight picture everytime I shoot. Sometimes that is not even possible. Light conditions are irrelevant. Couldn't be simpler or faster. With both eyes opened, dot, head, bang! Thousands of turkeys have been killed without it; thousands more will be killed without it. But I prefer the dot. YMMV.
Good point, the open red dots don't have the same weight and size drawbacks scopes and tube red dots do.
OTOH, your Trijicon costs $400-500+. That's about twice what I paid for my shotgun. I'm sure it works great, but I have to ask myself if my future turkey hunting needs would be better served by a new sight or, say, 20 boxes of premium HTL ammo.....
Quote
OTOH, your Trijicon costs $400-500+. That's about twice what I paid for my shotgun.
Prices are over the board on Trijicon. I was lucky and found my first with base included for under $300 from Alamo Tactical. It sits on my 835. The second I bought two years ago for my Mossy Super Bantam was $325 with base. One has to shop around. Trijicon over the years has sold a lot of sights and scopes to the military and has concentrated on those lines. For a period, they were hard to find. An option that is between red dot and standard beads/fibre optics is tritium illuminated ghost rings and posts that fit 870s and other guns. If Williams Fire Sights had a tritium option, I'd be a taker.
If you can see better with open sights than optics in low light, you must be super human. Noone said anything about gathering light. I probably have 15 or more guns with open sights, been using them my entire life, but know that optics are a better mouse trap. Anything that gives a lower margin of error is better imo.
I killed a nice bull with open sights last year and a few toms with beads this year for the heck of it. All of which made it very clear that optics are a far greater advantage.
Keep using open sights if you want, but don't preach they are better than optics.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Another advantage to shooting with red dot type sights and low power scopes that hasn't even been touched on this thread is that you can also shoot with BOTH EYES OPEN, (as long as your eye dominance and hand dominance match), giving you a much wider field of vision than if you use the old close one eye and squint the other style. I have red dots exclusively on all my turkey guns, as well as using my Speed Bead for every thing else that hops, runs or flies. I shoot with both eyes open like you are supposed to anyhow and have caught bigger birds sneaking into my decoys when I was about to drop the hammer on a smaller, allbeit mature gobbler. There are zero disadvantages for red dot sights...except that darn battery, which I always carry extras. I especially like my Speed Bead because even if the battery should take a dump, I can still sight down the rib if need be. A good red dot will be paralax free, have no to very little magnification, and will put a clear dot over the target that will match what the shooter sees, even if he or she has coke bottles bottoms for glasses. The better sights will even have a "built in" power supply like the Trigicons that use tritium to light up the reticle even in zero light conditions. Others like the Aimpoint sights can have batteries that will last 3 years or more if left on! I LOVE my Comp CM2 sight. It has a 50,000 hour battery life even if left on one of the lower settings. I don't even bother to shut it off during the season just in case I forget to turn it on if I get a bird fired up early. I replace the battery every three years and guess what...I've only had to replace the battery once in 5 years of hard hunting. Thats a whole ^ bucks for six years of hunting...not too bad I think.
Quote from: Reloader on June 04, 2011, 12:57:33 PM
If you can see better with open sights than optics in low light, you must be super human. Noone said anything about gathering light. I probably have 15 or more guns with open sights, been using them my entire life, but know that optics are a better mouse trap. Anything that gives a lower margin of error is better imo.
I killed a nice bull with open sights last year and a few toms with beads this year for the heck of it. All of which made it very clear that optics are a far greater advantage.
Keep using open sights if you want, but don't preach they are better than optics.
I've never said that open sights are better than optics. What I said was the the improvement optics offer does not justify the cost, weight and bulk. Sure the turkey's head is bigger and clearer (although not brighter) when seen through a scope, but it's so easy to make the shot without one that I don't see the point.
In other words, if I miss, it would be because I jerked the trigger or some other physical error, not because of sighting error. If I had a scope, I'd still make the same percentage of shots. It's not worth it to me to see the turkey's head more clearly, I can see it well enough now.
For a deer at 200 yards with a rifle, yes. Adding a scope will give an improvement in
results. For a turkey at 40 yards with a shotgun, no.
I Have used everything from a Bead sight to a Tri viz to a Tru bead to a red dot to a 1.75X4X32 Turkey Scope,Only thing i havent tried is a Open Red dot-Reflex sight,Each to there own,But if somebody thinks a Scope adds too much weight on a Gun to hike a round in the mountains or bush a bit.Well,Maybe pump some weights,I Have killed Birds with all of my Setups,Its personal preference,I like Both ways.But Am going back to a scope this spring because i want to.I Can carry water bottle and aScope on my Gun,And i carrya Browning,I Can handle the weight and i definitly did not have a Problem when i worked and hiked in the Northern Rockies everyday with my 45.70 Guide Gun And it was scoped.
It seems that if you're comfortable with beads and confident in your POA/POI then beads would be fine. Same thing for sights and scopes. If you feel like you're at an advantage, then your confidence level will be higher and thus increase the likeliness of an ethical harvest. Plus it doesn't hurt that slapping a scope on a rig happens to make it look pretty nice! (Not that the turkeys care.) :laugh:
Quote from: rempumpman on May 23, 2011, 12:25:28 AM
I am in NO WAY AGAINST anyone putting a scope on their favorite turkey slayer but was wondering is it really an advantage? I have seen the popularity of scopes grow big time over the last couple of years but I have been very skeptical about putting one on my shotgun; I am not against change and it may be that I need an education on this subject;
Ya'll might change this ol' man mind if you can truly prove why it's better to have one; ok, let me have it............... :TrainWreck1:................rem
The better you can see the better you can aim the better you can kill!
I've hunted turkeys with and without scopes. First started with a scope, then bought a new turkey gun that was lighter and was not pre-drilled and tapped for a scope. I hunted for a number of years with open sights and one day missed a tom no more than 20 yards from me and I couldn't believe it. I just sat there dumbfounded. Did a great deal of internet research and learned with today's tight patterns and the tendency to look up just prior to pulling the trigger missing a close shot is not as uncommon as I had believed. I was later convinced when I watched a friend of mine shoot at a turkey target and missed the entire target at less than 30 yards. It boils down to a matter of preference, I bought another shotgun (this time pre-drilled and tapped for a scope) a Benelli Supernova and put my shotgun and scope outfit together and now the "hit and connect" confidence is back 100%. The only concern I have is will the bird come in and or will he spot me I don't even think about the shot as i consider connecting to be a 99.99% certainty if he is in range. Put another way, If my crosshair is on him....I have my connection. If you want to checkout my turkey setup you can view it at http://www.outdoorsurveys.com/The_Perfect_Turkey_Gun.html
For those who enjoy open sites...stay with them. But if in a season you miss a bird or two that you knew was in range ....I highly recommend you go with a scope. It may not guarantee you'll never miss again but I assure you of a higher kill ratio per shot taken through the seasons.