Word is beginning to circulate that regulatory changes ( season dates, bag limits ) are in the offing, most likely to begin next (`22 ) season. This is primarily in response to declining poult/hen numbers. The biologists have tracked a general declining turkey population in Georgia . That does not mean that there aren`t individual areas and properties that have a goodly number of birds. That`s not, however, how global population biology works.
Any of you Georgia hunters who haven`t heard of him, find some podcasts by Dr. Mike Chamberlain, UGA wildlife biologist and avid turkey hunter. He`s one of " us " . I was spellbound listening to him.
I'm all for the effort and proposed changes. I am glad they are aware there is a problem and are trying find a solution. I hope it has a positive affect. But personally I believe they're chasing their tails with these proposed changes. I hope I'm wrong.
I agree that the reported, apparent population declines in some areas of the country (and in the southeastern states, in particular) are more complex that just season dates and bag limits. However, some of this is a function of "tradition" not recognizing "science" from the beginning.
When I say "tradition", here is a summation of what I mean: Long ago when spring gobbler seasons were first initiated,...much of which started in those southeastern states,...the thought process was: "It seems we have lots of turkeys. They are polygamous so we don't need all these gobblers, they are really fun to hunt by using a call, so let's start hunting them. Hmmm,...they've started gobbling, so let's start hunting them now! There are lots of them, so let's just keep hunting them as long as they are gobbling,...and this is so much fun, let's let hunters kill a bunch of 'em! After all, we got all of these extra gobblers that aren't needed to maintain the turkey population."
That was all well and good,...until the turkeys started going downhill. About that time, turkey biologists started realizing that "Hey, maybe we are disrupting their breeding cycle by starting the season too soon,...and hey, maybe we are killing too many of them every spring." Unfortunately, even though turkey biologists were aware of this, they were fighting the "tradition" that had already been established. That tradition of starting the season early, having a really long season, and killing a pile of gobblers has been ingrained in the hunter mind-set for so long that it is a tough nut to crack. The good news (for the turkeys,...and for future generations of turkey hunters, hopefully) is that turkey biologists are beginning to "put their foot down" and recognize that they can no longer bow to "tradition" over "science".
Now, granted, if we didn't have a bunch of other extraneous factors that have come into play that are also working to limit turkey numbers, we might not have to worry about things like starting dates, season lengths, and bag limits (as guesswho implies above). But the fact is that those other factors,....increasing predation, habitat degradation, human intrusion, disease, changing climate, and perhaps most importantly, increased hunter numbers and efficiency at killing turkeys...are all having a significant impact, as well.
Bottom line is that none of us want to see our hunting opportunities restricted and decreased,...but unfortunately, part of the solution to our declining wild turkey population numbers includes doing that. Hopefully, we will find a solution to those other problems, as well, and we will again see wild turkey populations flourish in the future. Until then, we as hunters must do our part.
Quote from: GobbleNut on January 04, 2021, 10:11:40 AM
I agree that the reported, apparent population declines in some areas of the country (and in the southeastern states, in particular) are more complex that just season dates and bag limits. However, some of this is a function of "tradition" not recognizing "science" from the beginning.
When I say "tradition", here is a summation of what I mean: Long ago when spring gobbler seasons were first initiated,...much of which started in those southeastern states,...the thought process was: "It seems we have lots of turkeys. They are polygamous so we don't need all these gobblers, they are really fun to hunt by using a call, so let's start hunting them. Hmmm,...they've started gobbling, so let's start hunting them now! There are lots of them, so let's just keep hunting them as long as they are gobbling,...and this is so much fun, let's let hunters kill a bunch of 'em! After all, we got all of these extra gobblers that aren't needed to maintain the turkey population."
That was all well and good,...until the turkeys started going downhill. About that time, turkey biologists started realizing that "Hey, maybe we are disrupting their breeding cycle by starting the season too soon,...and hey, maybe we are killing too many of them every spring." Unfortunately, even though turkey biologists were aware of this, they were fighting the "tradition" that had already been established. That tradition of starting the season early, having a really long season, and killing a pile of gobblers has been ingrained in the hunter mind-set for so long that it is a tough nut to crack. The good news (for the turkeys,...and for future generations of turkey hunters, hopefully) is that turkey biologists are beginning to "put their foot down" and recognize that they can no longer bow to "tradition" over "science".
Now, granted, if we didn't have a bunch of other extraneous factors that have come into play that are also working to limit turkey numbers, we might not have to worry about things like starting dates, season lengths, and bag limits (as guesswho implies above). But the fact is that those other factors,....increasing predation, habitat degradation, human intrusion, disease, changing climate, and perhaps most importantly, increased hunter numbers and efficiency at killing turkeys...are all having a significant impact, as well.
Bottom line is that none of us want to see our hunting opportunities restricted and decreased,...but unfortunately, part of the solution to our declining wild turkey population numbers includes doing that. Hopefully, we will find a solution to those other problems, as well, and we will again see wild turkey populations flourish in the future. Until then, we as hunters must do our part.
Well said, sir and agree wholeheartedly. Absolutely there are multiple factors in play. It appears the " Big Three " are :
1.
Need to get as many hens as possible bred and on nests - That`s where season dates and bag limits come into play.
2.
Habitat management- Good land management practices ( appropriate plantings, cover maintenance, controlled burning, etc. )
3.
Predator control- Cannot, and should not, eliminate all predators. Nature is a balance. That doesn`t mean that appropriate controls can`t be exercised on defined properties to the benefit of all ground nesting birds.
x2 What GobbleNut said
X3 .. good post ...
This was bound to happen after Guess Who moved to GA. He about emptied AL of turkeys and had to move. Now this.
Come on Ronnie, save some for the rest of us!
Quote from: Tail Feathers on January 04, 2021, 01:26:51 PM
This was bound to happen after Guess Who moved to GA. He about emptied AL of turkeys and had to move. Now this.
Come on Ronnie, save some for the rest of us!
What can I say. Even the N'WTF" acknowledged there me be some correlation :TooFunny:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4566/38222425804_86176a2818.jpg)
Very well put GobbleNut I am not in GA I am in NY an when I was able to returned to hunting after 17 years I could not believe the difference. Guys are complaining but when I bring up reducing from two toms in the Spring to one and eliminating taking bearded hens you would think I had committed mass murder or something. We have to change. In my area we have Mennonites and they tend to wipe out woods and hedgerows as do some of the "English" as the Mennonites refer to us and it has had a very detrimental impact.
You add that to modern farming machinery that is much more efficient than that of 20-50 years ago and cuts lower to the ground and moves faster and the fact that we are harvesting (Talking grains, hay, straw and so in here) earlier while their eggs are still on the ground and the turkey do not stand much of a chance.
Come tomorrow, I fear a lot will change for Georgia, the entire country for that matter.
One more potato to throw in the stew, genetics
I think biologist assumed that once you transplanted/stocked in an area and the population increases there would be enough genetic diversity in the flock. Well, in the scenario Gobblenut presented, genetic diversity is restricted and becomes a much smaller pool when a hand full of gobblers are doing all the breeding. If we are going to continue to kill 60-75% of the gobblers before age 4 then we need to mechanically move some birds around and build the gene pool. Any livestock farmer can tell you one bull in a whole herd is not good and then the next bull up is his son and all of a sudden your losing calves and not getting heifers bred. I would make a wager that a little new blood in these areas would make a difference
Quote from: Sir-diealot on January 04, 2021, 02:56:45 PM
Very well put GobbleNut I am not in GA I am in NY an when I was able to returned to hunting after 17 years I could not believe the difference. Guys are complaining but when I bring up reducing from two toms in the Spring to one and eliminating taking bearded hens you would think I had committed mass murder or something. We have to change. In my area we have Mennonites and they tend to wipe out woods and hedgerows as do some of the "English" as the Mennonites refer to us and it has had a very detrimental impact.
You add that to modern farming machinery that is much more efficient than that of 20-50 years ago and cuts lower to the ground and moves faster and the fact that we are harvesting (Talking grains, hay, straw and so in here) earlier while their eggs are still on the ground and the turkey do not stand much of a chance.
Many folks are fine with changes and restrictions......as long as they impact someone else. Just don`t inconvenience me. IMHO it`s a shortsighted and selfish outlook. Scientific facts and biological reality can often be that way.
Quote from: Turkeytider on January 04, 2021, 05:34:28 PM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on January 04, 2021, 02:56:45 PM
Very well put GobbleNut I am not in GA I am in NY an when I was able to returned to hunting after 17 years I could not believe the difference. Guys are complaining but when I bring up reducing from two toms in the Spring to one and eliminating taking bearded hens you would think I had committed mass murder or something. We have to change. In my area we have Mennonites and they tend to wipe out woods and hedgerows as do some of the "English" as the Mennonites refer to us and it has had a very detrimental impact.
You add that to modern farming machinery that is much more efficient than that of 20-50 years ago and cuts lower to the ground and moves faster and the fact that we are harvesting (Talking grains, hay, straw and so in here) earlier while their eggs are still on the ground and the turkey do not stand much of a chance.
Many folks are fine with changes and restrictions......as long as they impact someone else. Just don`t inconvenience me. IMHO it`s a shortsighted and selfish outlook. Scientific facts and biological reality can often be that way.
I agree completely.
Quote from: eggshell on January 04, 2021, 05:07:49 PM
One more potato to throw in the stew, genetics
I think biologist assumed that once you transplanted/stocked in an area and the population increases there would be enough genetic diversity in the flock. Well, in the scenario Gobblenut presented, genetic diversity is restricted and becomes a much smaller pool when a hand full of gobblers are doing all the breeding. If we are going to continue to kill 60-75% of the gobblers before age 4 then we need to mechanically move some birds around and build the gene pool. Any livestock farmer can tell you one bull in a whole herd is not good and then the next bull up is his son and all of a sudden your losing calves and not getting heifers bred. I would make a wager that a little new blood in these areas would make a difference
I could see that being a problem, you look at the Amish community and they have many diseases that are very rare or not rare but contained within the community and not found outside of it. Read a paper on that a year or so ago, very interesting.
I'm glad Georgia wildlife is "reacting". Here in NY, DEC wildlife watched numbers plummet from 2002 to 2016 before reacting and after taking away 2 weeks of fall hunting and two 5 year "studies", no clear answer to the cause...
Quote from: tracker#1 on January 04, 2021, 07:24:23 PM
I'm glad Georgia wildlife is "reacting". Here in NY, DEC wildlife watched numbers plummet from 2002 to 2016 before reacting and after taking away 2 weeks of fall hunting and two 5 year "studies", no clear answer to the cause...
Those dates are funny to me, they coincide with when I had my accident and when I came back and saw the incredible difference. My accident was November of 2001 and I started to hunt again I believe in 2016
Follow the $. Selling licenses is more important to these states than proper management.
Quote from: shatcher on January 05, 2021, 07:48:33 AM
Follow the $. Selling licenses is more important to these states than proper management.
We can only hope that that will change, if only to a sufficient extent to at least ensure viable, and in this case huntable, populations. If we don`t manage the resource properly, in a few years you might not have to worry about selling licenses. IMHO to look at it any other way borders on stupid.
AMEN to shatcher as he was not referring to turkey hunting at all but the two senate races that will affect this country FOREVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!