So the lack of responses to my question and lack of desire to derail the TN thread has me more and more curious. Why does Arkansas turkey hunting suck? I don't think we can make the same arguments as we make in other states. What say y'all? I honestly have no idea.
I cant help answer your question but it does suck. That and Mississippi. Although I like being in Arkansas a heck of a lot more than being in Miss
I wish everyone else liked being in Arkansas more than Mississippi!
Never turkey hunted in Arkansas but the stories from the National Forest are flat out depressing. Personally know people who routinely heard a half dozen birds or more on a lot of hunts in the late 90s and early 2000s. Now they consider it a success to hear one.
I know there's been a little turkey research completed in the National Forests there. Seems like there'd be a lot more research focused on the state. Especially considering all the season modifications they've made over the past decade with little improvement. Modifications such as the reduced season length, no jake rule, later seasons. And most recently the 1-bird first 7-days. It's obvious some of those changes didn't help. Its like slapping a band aid on something that requires major surgery. My fear is with the current push to enact similar regulations in other states, what if they really don't help? We have lost a lot of hunting opportunity for much of nothing.
I sometimes wonder if there's a 'hump' that certain turkey populations can't get over now. Populations declined for a variety of factors (mother nature, predators, habitat) and knocked them down so low that perhaps they just can't get over the 'hump' to increase populations given the current circumstances. They are stuck on 'maintenance' or even worse, decline. It'd require major cooperation from mother nature to get past the hump (streaks of cooperative weather, predator declines (like a distemper outbreak), and so forth). Or it requires intensive constant management which is extremely expensive and not quite feasible for most at the landscape level.
I've heard it theorized that there is a lag period between the time that a prey species is introduced and when predators learn how to hunt them most effectively. The longer the prey species (i.e. is out there, the more effective the predators becoming at hunting them. The first generation of predators figures out there is a new prey species on the landscape.. The second generation becomes a bit more efficient at hunting the new prey species than the first, and so forth. Seems plausible and I think this could part of our current issue.
I believe there is a lot to be learned from the Arkansas case and hopefully future turkey research can make good use of it.
Quote from: Shiloh on June 21, 2021, 03:21:20 PM
I wish everyone else liked being in Arkansas more than Mississippi!
Me to
People, predators, and weather.
I heard the turkey biologist say that an estimate of turkey hunters in the state is 80-90,000. I know other states figure their turkey population at 10x the harvest. Our harvest this year was right at 7,000. 85,000 people hunting 35,000 (saying half are male and not taking out for jakes) isn't very good for anyone involved but especially not the turkeys.
I know people think that predators are bad in every state, but I would be willing to bet on our nest predator population against any other state in the US. My grandpa is a rice farmer and traps coons because they are a nuisance by digging the levees. He has had several years of catching over 100 and giving up because it doesn't make a difference and told me yesterday that he has never seen as many of them as this year. Everyone baits deer and that only gives the coons a surplus of food so they are more successful at reproducing every year. I wish we could have a requirement of turning in a number of predator tails before you can get your turkey tags.
I couldn't tell you the last time we had favorable weather conditions in the nesting season. Where I'm located, the rivers stay out of their banks and flood a huge amount of ground almost every spring. It seems like as soon as it dries up through the season, it starts raining again about the time eggs should be hatching.
I don't think these are the only problems but I think they are the main ones. Turkey hunting is "cool" now which will only lead to more people hunting. I read an article that stated our game and fish cited a huge increase of more people this year for hunting over bait or out of season. Everyone has to get a picture with a dead turkey so all their friends can pat them on the back and let them know how good of a hunter they are and they will do anything for it.
I hope we can figure out what is wrong and how to correct it soon, this was the first year in 10 years I didn't kill a turkey in Arkansas and I want so bad for my children to be able to experience it how it used to be and not the way it is currently.
Spent a week hunting Arkansas 3 years ago in the Ozarks National forest. Heard gobbles every mourning, multiple birds gobbling on most days. Had a couple close but couldn't seal the deal. It was not nearly as bad as Ive heard most say the last few years. Granted the woods were not lighting up with gobbles but that's hardly the case most places when I hunt public land.
Quote from: Fdept56 on June 21, 2021, 06:22:26 PM
Everyone baits deer and that only gives the coons a surplus of food so they are more successful at reproducing every year.
How long has deer baiting been legal in Arkansas?
Deer baiting is becoming more restricted in many states (partly due to CWD concerns of concentrating deer).
Would be interesting to compare turkey populations in states with baiting vs. states without baiting. This may or may not be a big variable in turkey declines, but as you say - giving nest predators free food (bolstering their populations/reproduction) likely doesn't help the turkey situation!
Had the pleasure of experiencing Arkansas turkey hunting for the first time this spring. Had a lot of momentum coming from a dang good swing and about hit a brick wall crossing into Arkansas. I found a bird or 2, but it seemed they were all well known and every gobbling bird had 4-5 people actively hunting them. Ran into more people in the woods in Arkansas than anywhere else I've hunted.. I had 3 people tell me that it's been years since they had killed a bird, like as many as 8 years.. and it didn't seem like it was for a lack of trying. I was the only nonresident plates I saw hunting. Also saw 4 bobcats in just a few days.
Arkansas has some bigger problems adjusting regulations just won't fix. I was tight to a pair of jakes one morning. They flew down in range of me, confirmed they were jakes and I let them walk off. When I got back to the truck someone was at their vehicle next to mine. They had heard the birds gobbling and was expecting me to come out with one. I explained they were jakes, without hesitation he said "aw I'd have dusted em. I ain't killed a bird in 4 years." He went right in behind me after I left. Heard from another local, there are 2 seasons in Arkansas... salt and pepper. The few birds I saw in fields bolted at the sight of a vehicle.
Ended up running out of time and not filling a tag in Arkansas, but it was some beautiful country I don't mind returning to.. I hope the changes do make some good though.
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Coming from southeast Arkansas myself - my opinion is we don't have the turkeys for a two bird limit- our season should be 1 bird and one week until things swing back upward- killing one in Arkansas is quite an accomplishment these days!!
If Arkansas residents poach at home like they do in other states its a small miracle there are any birds left.
Arkansas Game and Fish Commission - Commission seeks ...https://m.facebook.com › ARGameandFish › photos
The Arkansas Game and Fish Commission heard the first reading of new regulations concerning ... The raccoon population is way out of control around here.
Quote from: owlhoot on June 21, 2021, 11:52:53 PM
Arkansas Game and Fish Commission - Commission seeks ...https://m.facebook.com › ARGameandFish › photos
The Arkansas Game and Fish Commission heard the first reading of new regulations concerning ... The raccoon population is way out of control around here.
In absence of trappers, Arkansas issues cull permits .
Sep 24, 2019 — Furbearers such as bobcat, coyote, gray fox, red fox, opossum, raccoon and striped skunk may now be hunted year-round on private land in the ...
The beauty of raccoon hunting for me was that I was able to easily include my young family. I rarely went raccoon hunting last winter without taking one of my kids. It didn't take them long to begin to love hounds the way I did. There is something adventurous about being in the woods at night chasing a hound, and raccoon hunting is a great way to introduce kids into the outdoors and hunting. There's no need for long sits without moving—raccoon hunting is a social sport designed for talking and human interaction. Additionally, raccoon populations are very good in Arkansas and need to be controlled by hunting. Raccoons are ground nest predators (turkeys and quail), poultry killers, bird feed raiders and a general nuisance.
My father did his part until the dogooders killed the fur industry. He was one of the fur dealers located in central Arkansas until he relocated to Louisiana. The only thing good about his death in 1989 is that he didn't have to experience the demise of the fur business. With the increasing population, things will only get worse.
Never been to Arkansas.....But my guess would be , just like Clinton, the birds never have relations with each other. LOLLLLLLLLLL
In the Southeast, extreme habitat loss, predators, illegal poaching, and flooding during nesting are the biggest culprits.
Arkansas kind of began the turkey loss phenomenon. Before 2000 or so, they had a LOT of turkeys. Their population was probably the first to rather inexplicably drop many years back. I have a couple of brothers-in-law there who used to have lots of turkeys in their area who now rarely see or hear them. I don't know if Arkansas ever figured out why but I hope they led the country in research and can provide some guidance to other states facing loss of birds.
I don't know how to post a link but if any of you are interested, I just
listened to a podcast with the Arkansas Wild Turkey Program coordinator.
He talks about what they're doing to help turkey populations.
His name is Jeremy Wood. Interesting stuff.
Just search for "The Turkey Hunter Podcast with Andy Gagliano".
It's the latest episode from 6-17-21. Episode 346.
theturkeyhunterpodcast.com
If anyone knows how to post a link please post it up here.
Never hunted there and don't know anything about it.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
I don't know much but when a term for poaching something is called "arkansawed" you have reached a level of notoriety. Sure that doesn't help things much.
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https://www.theturkeyhunterpodcast.com/e/346-possible-progress-in-arkansas-with-jeremy-wood/
Enjoy!
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Quote from: MS TurkeyHunter on June 24, 2021, 06:32:46 PM
https://www.theturkeyhunterpodcast.com/e/346-possible-progress-in-arkansas-with-jeremy-wood/
Enjoy!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks MS TurkeyHunter!
i MIGHT tolerate the poor turkey hunting if i could pick and hang with people like Nick Shoulders
https://youtu.be/FmAwFPqHTe0
Quote from: Shiloh on June 21, 2021, 03:21:20 PM
I wish everyone else liked being in Arkansas more than Mississippi!
yeah no crap....
I am going to say Arkansas s*#$@ because there are probably 3 " Arkansas Turkey Killers" in alot of family's. From Gramps,Son and all the way down to Grandson/a.
They know their trade well and plenty of them travel to Mississippi to Hone those skills before clearing out the Arkansas Gobbler 2 Year olds.
Use the Arkansas Regulations
A new free Predator-Control Permit also will be available to private landowners, which will let permit holders shoot or trap bobcat, coyote, gray fox, red fox, opossum, raccoon and striped skunk day or night.
This permit will be available by late August to enable more opportunity to control these species on private land.
Commission Chair Ken Reeves of Harrison and Commissioner Stan Jones of Walnut Ridge explained that the goal of the regulations was not to eliminate any of these species on a statewide basis.
"I think everyone knows that the reason we're doing this is we simply don't have people trapping and hunting raccoons and opossums like we did many years ago because the pelts aren't worth much,"
Reeves said. "We're trying to fill that gap by letting private landowners reduce these predators on their property to try to boost their quail and turkey numbers."
Quote from: owlhoot on June 25, 2021, 05:25:48 PM
Use the Arkansas Regulations
A new free Predator-Control Permit also will be available to private landowners, which will let permit holders shoot or trap bobcat, coyote, gray fox, red fox, opossum, raccoon and striped skunk day or night.
This permit will be available by late August to enable more opportunity to control these species on private land.
Commission Chair Ken Reeves of Harrison and Commissioner Stan Jones of Walnut Ridge explained that the goal of the regulations was not to eliminate any of these species on a statewide basis.
"I think everyone knows that the reason we're doing this is we simply don't have people trapping and hunting raccoons and opossums like we did many years ago because the pelts aren't worth much,"
Reeves said. "We're trying to fill that gap by letting private landowners reduce these predators on their property to try to boost their quail and turkey numbers."
I like it. Ive been trying to get my state to do something similar. Our state furbearer biologist has a daughter that plays on my daughter's team. Gonna have to try and press him harder.
It is "one" of the problems, but a serious one. If the dogooders have killed the fur industry, man must do what he can to keep the furbearers in balance. I hate unintended consentances. I have also learned to hate spelling, damned old age.
I'm from Arkansas and have seen the good and the bad with our population. There are still pockets of turkeys, with wide ranging reports of "we have no turkeys" to "the population is just fine". There are some areas that almost seem void of turkeys, but by and large it's somewhere in the middle, in my opinion. One key point is that many confuse the quality of hunting with the state of the population. With 9 consecutive seasons of 16 days in length, judging the population on gobbling activity or even harvest totals can be misguided. With that said, overall the decline is real.
I'm not sure much is unique to Arkansas, that other states don't deal with, except for maybe less suitable habitat statewide to support strong populations as compared to other states. Like many states, we have seen an explosion in predators that prey on both adult turkeys and nests/poults. All in the last 15-20 years, trapping has declined, baiting with corn for deer has increased, hogs have spread throughout the state, and fire ants have spread much farther north. In my opinion, arguably the most damaging issue has been the trend of increased rain fall in the critical months of April, May, and June. This has been the norm over the last 15+ years. To note, in 2012 it was much more dry, to the point of a 1/3 or 1/4 of the average during this span. We had a great hatch. In fact it was the best since 2001 and any year after. As a result, in 2014 we killed 12,074. Not too impressive for many, unless you understand Arkansas and recognize that this would rival the peak years of the early 2000s, considering days hunted and Jake restrictions. But, in 2017 we had a tremendous amount of rain and flooding and our hatch suffered greatly. 2018 hatch results were much the same. Both resulted in poult per hen counts below 1.00.
I believe habitat is the basis for a good population. Without it, the population can't thrive. I have a few opinions on it concerning Arkansas. Some agree and some disagree. Timber companies and the USFS manage trees, not wildlife. Concerning the USFS, I understand the benefits of prescribed burns in the long term. But, the reality is that late season burns on a large scale aren't necessarily beneficial to already nesting or hens preparing to nest. I realize the benefits of new growth and bugs, etc. The key words are "late season" and "large scale" together. You have removed nests on the ground and while hens can re-nest a few times, the success rate goes down. Maybe not a big deal unless you'd re dealing with an already depleted and struggling population. Mid April burns won't result in suitable nesting habitat until early summer. In Arkansas this spring, there were burns conducted on back to back mid April days of over 10,000 acres in one region combined, in sizes of around 1,500, 2,500, and 3,000 acres. With the majority of hens utilizing the fringes, I'm interested to know the congregation of more hens correlates with predation. I would like to see the acreage quota reduced depending on dates scheduled per re-scheduled. With habitat as a whole, we have seen a loss like many states, but many areas have been somewhat unchanged or even improved, yet the population has continued to decline.
I support conservative season structures, obviously within reason. What many unfamiliar with Arkansas don't realize, or even some in Arkansas fail to realize, is that we have had conservative seasons. Minus going to a limit of 1, which one could argue might not drastically reduce the actual overall number killed, the conservative hunting regulations aren't a new approach. In 2001, even before our peak years, they implemented a limit of 1 jake. 2003 was the peak with nearly 20,000 turkeys checked. By 2005, the season was reduced from as many as 39 days to 21 days and opened April 14th as compared to around April 1st or 3rd. The season opened later than the 10th through 2010 and was 18-21 days in length. In 2009 the fall season was canceled. In 2011, jakes were limited to 1 per youth only. From 2012 - 2020, the season opened from the 8th to the 20th with a length of 16 days. Often the season landed in a gobbling lull or consisted of poor weather, driving the overall kill total down. Considering the jake restrictions, the percentage of the overall kill dropped from nearly 40% prior to 2000, to and average of 22% from 2000-2010, then to an average of 4% from 2011 to 2020. In 2021, further restrictions were implemented: 1 turkey limit the first week and 1 limit per WMA for the season. What has been the result over the last 20 years? While I don't devalue some positives for breeding and carryover, I think it's a mistake to place too much worth on it being "The" solution to the problem. Arkansas is a prime example. We could reduce the harvest even lower than 2021 (around 7,000) or even close the season for a year or two, and I'm of the opinion it wouldn't make much of a difference in the overall population.
Other states are implementing changes to reduce the harvest numbers, but I expect the same results as Arkansas if the root causes of the decline are not addressed. Other states may be on the same trajectory, but have had much larger population bases to work with.
i just moved back to Arkansas last year. When you can ride around and see as many coons in the daytime as you do. You have a problem. In the Delta there are a few turkeys but not many. Hunter to gobbler ratio is high. Can you kill a gobbler in Arkansas yes but you are going to have to hunt hard and expect company. I hunt them but nothing says i have to kill him.
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 07, 2021, 10:31:10 PM
I'm from Arkansas and have seen the good and the bad with our population. There are still pockets of turkeys, with wide ranging reports of "we have no turkeys" to "the population is just fine". There are some areas that almost seem void of turkeys, but by and large it's somewhere in the middle, in my opinion. One key point is that many confuse the quality of hunting with the state of the population. With 9 consecutive seasons of 16 days in length, judging the population on gobbling activity or even harvest totals can be misguided. With that said, overall the decline is real.
I'm not sure much is unique to Arkansas, that other states don't deal with, except for maybe less suitable habitat statewide to support strong populations as compared to other states. Like many states, we have seen an explosion in predators that prey on both adult turkeys and nests/poults. All in the last 15-20 years, trapping has declined, baiting with corn for deer has increased, hogs have spread throughout the state, and fire ants have spread much farther north. In my opinion, arguably the most damaging issue has been the trend of increased rain fall in the critical months of April, May, and June. This has been the norm over the last 15+ years. To note, in 2012 it was much more dry, to the point of a 1/3 or 1/4 of the average during this span. We had a great hatch. In fact it was the best since 2001 and any year after. As a result, in 2014 we killed 12,074. Not too impressive for many, unless you understand Arkansas and recognize that this would rival the peak years of the early 2000s, considering days hunted and Jake restrictions. But, in 2017 we had a tremendous amount of rain and flooding and our hatch suffered greatly. 2018 hatch results were much the same. Both resulted in poult per hen counts below 1.00.
I believe habitat is the basis for a good population. Without it, the population can't thrive. I have a few opinions on it concerning Arkansas. Some agree and some disagree. Timber companies and the USFS manage trees, not wildlife. Concerning the USFS, I understand the benefits of prescribed burns in the long term. But, the reality is that late season burns on a large scale aren't necessarily beneficial to already nesting or hens preparing to nest. I realize the benefits of new growth and bugs, etc. The key words are "late season" and "large scale" together. You have removed nests on the ground and while hens can re-nest a few times, the success rate goes down. Maybe not a big deal unless you'd re dealing with an already depleted and struggling population. Mid April burns won't result in suitable nesting habitat until early summer. In Arkansas this spring, there were burns conducted on back to back mid April days of over 10,000 acres in one region combined, in sizes of around 1,500, 2,500, and 3,000 acres. With the majority of hens utilizing the fringes, I'm interested to know the congregation of more hens correlates with predation. I would like to see the acreage quota reduced depending on dates scheduled per re-scheduled. With habitat as a whole, we have seen a loss like many states, but many areas have been somewhat unchanged or even improved, yet the population has continued to decline.
I support conservative season structures, obviously within reason. What many unfamiliar with Arkansas don't realize, or even some in Arkansas fail to realize, is that we have had conservative seasons. Minus going to a limit of 1, which one could argue might not drastically reduce the actual overall number killed, the conservative hunting regulations aren't a new approach. In 2001, even before our peak years, they implemented a limit of 1 jake. 2003 was the peak with nearly 20,000 turkeys checked. By 2005, the season was reduced from as many as 39 days to 21 days and opened April 14th as compared to around April 1st or 3rd. The season opened later than the 10th through 2010 and was 18-21 days in length. In 2009 the fall season was canceled. In 2011, jakes were limited to 1 per youth only. From 2012 - 2020, the season opened from the 8th to the 20th with a length of 16 days. Often the season landed in a gobbling lull or consisted of poor weather, driving the overall kill total down. Considering the jake restrictions, the percentage of the overall kill dropped from nearly 40% prior to 2000, to and average of 22% from 2000-2010, then to an average of 4% from 2011 to 2020. In 2021, further restrictions were implemented: 1 turkey limit the first week and 1 limit per WMA for the season. What has been the result over the last 20 years? While I don't devalue some positives for breeding and carryover, I think it's a mistake to place too much worth on it being "The" solution to the problem. Arkansas is a prime example. We could reduce the harvest even lower than 2021 (around 7,000) or even close the season for a year or two, and I'm of the opinion it wouldn't make much of a difference in the overall population.
Other states are implementing changes to reduce the harvest numbers, but I expect the same results as Arkansas if the root causes of the decline are not addressed. Other states may be on the same trajectory, but have had much larger population bases to work with.
Fantastic post! ...And right on target! :icon_thumright:
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 07, 2021, 10:31:10 PM
I'm from Arkansas and have seen the good and the bad with our population. There are still pockets of turkeys, with wide ranging reports of "we have no turkeys" to "the population is just fine". There are some areas that almost seem void of turkeys, but by and large it's somewhere in the middle, in my opinion. One key point is that many confuse the quality of hunting with the state of the population. With 9 consecutive seasons of 16 days in length, judging the population on gobbling activity or even harvest totals can be misguided. With that said, overall the decline is real.
I'm not sure much is unique to Arkansas, that other states don't deal with, except for maybe less suitable habitat statewide to support strong populations as compared to other states. Like many states, we have seen an explosion in predators that prey on both adult turkeys and nests/poults. All in the last 15-20 years, trapping has declined, baiting with corn for deer has increased, hogs have spread throughout the state, and fire ants have spread much farther north. In my opinion, arguably the most damaging issue has been the trend of increased rain fall in the critical months of April, May, and June. This has been the norm over the last 15+ years. To note, in 2012 it was much more dry, to the point of a 1/3 or 1/4 of the average during this span. We had a great hatch. In fact it was the best since 2001 and any year after. As a result, in 2014 we killed 12,074. Not too impressive for many, unless you understand Arkansas and recognize that this would rival the peak years of the early 2000s, considering days hunted and Jake restrictions. But, in 2017 we had a tremendous amount of rain and flooding and our hatch suffered greatly. 2018 hatch results were much the same. Both resulted in poult per hen counts below 1.00.
I believe habitat is the basis for a good population. Without it, the population can't thrive. I have a few opinions on it concerning Arkansas. Some agree and some disagree. Timber companies and the USFS manage trees, not wildlife. Concerning the USFS, I understand the benefits of prescribed burns in the long term. But, the reality is that late season burns on a large scale aren't necessarily beneficial to already nesting or hens preparing to nest. I realize the benefits of new growth and bugs, etc. The key words are "late season" and "large scale" together. You have removed nests on the ground and while hens can re-nest a few times, the success rate goes down. Maybe not a big deal unless you'd re dealing with an already depleted and struggling population. Mid April burns won't result in suitable nesting habitat until early summer. In Arkansas this spring, there were burns conducted on back to back mid April days of over 10,000 acres in one region combined, in sizes of around 1,500, 2,500, and 3,000 acres. With the majority of hens utilizing the fringes, I'm interested to know the congregation of more hens correlates with predation. I would like to see the acreage quota reduced depending on dates scheduled per re-scheduled. With habitat as a whole, we have seen a loss like many states, but many areas have been somewhat unchanged or even improved, yet the population has continued to decline.
I support conservative season structures, obviously within reason. What many unfamiliar with Arkansas don't realize, or even some in Arkansas fail to realize, is that we have had conservative seasons. Minus going to a limit of 1, which one could argue might not drastically reduce the actual overall number killed, the conservative hunting regulations aren't a new approach. In 2001, even before our peak years, they implemented a limit of 1 jake. 2003 was the peak with nearly 20,000 turkeys checked. By 2005, the season was reduced from as many as 39 days to 21 days and opened April 14th as compared to around April 1st or 3rd. The season opened later than the 10th through 2010 and was 18-21 days in length. In 2009 the fall season was canceled. In 2011, jakes were limited to 1 per youth only. From 2012 - 2020, the season opened from the 8th to the 20th with a length of 16 days. Often the season landed in a gobbling lull or consisted of poor weather, driving the overall kill total down. Considering the jake restrictions, the percentage of the overall kill dropped from nearly 40% prior to 2000, to and average of 22% from 2000-2010, then to an average of 4% from 2011 to 2020. In 2021, further restrictions were implemented: 1 turkey limit the first week and 1 limit per WMA for the season. What has been the result over the last 20 years? While I don't devalue some positives for breeding and carryover, I think it's a mistake to place too much worth on it being "The" solution to the problem. Arkansas is a prime example. We could reduce the harvest even lower than 2021 (around 7,000) or even close the season for a year or two, and I'm of the opinion it wouldn't make much of a difference in the overall population.
Other states are implementing changes to reduce the harvest numbers, but I expect the same results as Arkansas if the root causes of the decline are not addressed. Other states may be on the same trajectory, but have had much larger population bases to work with.
You hit the nail on the head brother! Here in south Louisiana the shortened season has been in effect for a few years now. We're have more gobbling turkeys here now since the early 2000's. It's been a slow process. 4 years ago I think we only killed 6 gobblers on 10,000 acres. Last year the numbers were significantly higher. The main difference was trapping. Not only coons and coyotes but hogs! We've trapped and killed probably close to 300 hogs just in the last two years! I believe the shortened " later" season, along with adequate predator control will result in better hatch's as long as the weather corporates. Considering the life span of an adult wild turkey is only 4-5 years 3-4 years of bad hatch= few turkeys!
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Quote from: Shiloh on June 21, 2021, 03:03:11 PM
So the lack of responses to my question and lack of desire to derail the TN thread has me more and more curious. Why does Arkansas turkey hunting suck? I don't think we can make the same arguments as we make in other states. What say y'all? I honestly have no idea.
based on the behavior ive seen from a few arkies I know that hunted the same public I have back in the 90s and early 2000s.....it doesn't surprise me that Arkansas has essentially a non existent turkey population. 50% a joke, and 50% reality
Quote from: RUN-N-GUN on July 08, 2021, 07:02:26 PM
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 07, 2021, 10:31:10 PM
I'm from Arkansas and have seen the good and the bad with our population. There are still pockets of turkeys, with wide ranging reports of "we have no turkeys" to "the population is just fine". There are some areas that almost seem void of turkeys, but by and large it's somewhere in the middle, in my opinion. One key point is that many confuse the quality of hunting with the state of the population. With 9 consecutive seasons of 16 days in length, judging the population on gobbling activity or even harvest totals can be misguided. With that said, overall the decline is real.
I'm not sure much is unique to Arkansas, that other states don't deal with, except for maybe less suitable habitat statewide to support strong populations as compared to other states. Like many states, we have seen an explosion in predators that prey on both adult turkeys and nests/poults. All in the last 15-20 years, trapping has declined, baiting with corn for deer has increased, hogs have spread throughout the state, and fire ants have spread much farther north. In my opinion, arguably the most damaging issue has been the trend of increased rain fall in the critical months of April, May, and June. This has been the norm over the last 15+ years. To note, in 2012 it was much more dry, to the point of a 1/3 or 1/4 of the average during this span. We had a great hatch. In fact it was the best since 2001 and any year after. As a result, in 2014 we killed 12,074. Not too impressive for many, unless you understand Arkansas and recognize that this would rival the peak years of the early 2000s, considering days hunted and Jake restrictions. But, in 2017 we had a tremendous amount of rain and flooding and our hatch suffered greatly. 2018 hatch results were much the same. Both resulted in poult per hen counts below 1.00.
I believe habitat is the basis for a good population. Without it, the population can't thrive. I have a few opinions on it concerning Arkansas. Some agree and some disagree. Timber companies and the USFS manage trees, not wildlife. Concerning the USFS, I understand the benefits of prescribed burns in the long term. But, the reality is that late season burns on a large scale aren't necessarily beneficial to already nesting or hens preparing to nest. I realize the benefits of new growth and bugs, etc. The key words are "late season" and "large scale" together. You have removed nests on the ground and while hens can re-nest a few times, the success rate goes down. Maybe not a big deal unless you'd re dealing with an already depleted and struggling population. Mid April burns won't result in suitable nesting habitat until early summer. In Arkansas this spring, there were burns conducted on back to back mid April days of over 10,000 acres in one region combined, in sizes of around 1,500, 2,500, and 3,000 acres. With the majority of hens utilizing the fringes, I'm interested to know the congregation of more hens correlates with predation. I would like to see the acreage quota reduced depending on dates scheduled per re-scheduled. With habitat as a whole, we have seen a loss like many states, but many areas have been somewhat unchanged or even improved, yet the population has continued to decline.
I support conservative season structures, obviously within reason. What many unfamiliar with Arkansas don't realize, or even some in Arkansas fail to realize, is that we have had conservative seasons. Minus going to a limit of 1, which one could argue might not drastically reduce the actual overall number killed, the conservative hunting regulations aren't a new approach. In 2001, even before our peak years, they implemented a limit of 1 jake. 2003 was the peak with nearly 20,000 turkeys checked. By 2005, the season was reduced from as many as 39 days to 21 days and opened April 14th as compared to around April 1st or 3rd. The season opened later than the 10th through 2010 and was 18-21 days in length. In 2009 the fall season was canceled. In 2011, jakes were limited to 1 per youth only. From 2012 - 2020, the season opened from the 8th to the 20th with a length of 16 days. Often the season landed in a gobbling lull or consisted of poor weather, driving the overall kill total down. Considering the jake restrictions, the percentage of the overall kill dropped from nearly 40% prior to 2000, to and average of 22% from 2000-2010, then to an average of 4% from 2011 to 2020. In 2021, further restrictions were implemented: 1 turkey limit the first week and 1 limit per WMA for the season. What has been the result over the last 20 years? While I don't devalue some positives for breeding and carryover, I think it's a mistake to place too much worth on it being "The" solution to the problem. Arkansas is a prime example. We could reduce the harvest even lower than 2021 (around 7,000) or even close the season for a year or two, and I'm of the opinion it wouldn't make much of a difference in the overall population.
Other states are implementing changes to reduce the harvest numbers, but I expect the same results as Arkansas if the root causes of the decline are not addressed. Other states may be on the same trajectory, but have had much larger population bases to work with.
You hit the nail on the head brother! Here in south Louisiana the shortened season has been in effect for a few years now. We're have more gobbling turkeys here now since the early 2000's. It's been a slow process. 4 years ago I think we only killed 6 gobblers on 10,000 acres. Last year the numbers were significantly higher. The main difference was trapping. Not only coons and coyotes but hogs! We've trapped and killed probably close to 300 hogs just in the last two years! I believe the shortened " later" season, along with adequate predator control will result in better hatch's as long as the weather corporates. Considering the life span of an adult wild turkey is only 4-5 years 3-4 years of bad hatch= few turkeys!
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this is legitimately wonderful to read. Glad yal are healing down there
Back around 2000 AR was a destination hunt. They had a lot of birds. I had two brothers-in-law who lived in NE AR and they were always telling me to come hunt. One of them was raised up there and said he could hear a dozen gobblers from his porch.
I never went but in a few short years when I had the time, they said the birds had pretty much disappeared. I think this "big decline" probably started in AR first.
Quote from: Tail Feathers on August 24, 2021, 11:21:01 AM
Back around 2000 AR was a destination hunt. They had a lot of birds. I had two brothers-in-law who lived in NE AR and they were always telling me to come hunt. One of them was raised up there and said he could hear a dozen gobblers from his porch.
I never went but in a few short years when I had the time, they said the birds had pretty much disappeared. I think this "big decline" probably started in AR first.
Heard the exact same things from a few people I know in Arkansas. Literally birds just disappeared. I'm just glad measures are being taken in the south now. If they are effective measures that's TBD...
El Pavo's post is a great one and mirrors most of my thoughts. I've lived in Arkansas my entire life and started turkey hunting in 1994, so like him I've seen the ups and downs. While there's no debating our population is down from the "good o'l days" of the early 2000's, I think some people make it sound much worse than it is, at least in the areas I hunt.
I hunt both the Ouachita and Ozark National Forests and can think of very few days I've hunted over the last several years where I wasn't on a gobbling turkey. Did I hear 6 or 7 at daylight like I did 20 yrs ago, no. But the opportunities are still there. I killed my first bird on the 2nd day of season this year and didn't see or hear another hunter in the area I was in. I killed my second bird on the next to last day of season, directly off the roost and didn't see another vehicle as I drove out 15 miles of national forest road. In between those two birds I had several other close calls and damn fine hunts.
What I've noticed the last several years: If I hunt past 10:00 I almost never see another vehicle in the woods and if I do it's only a few. If I hunt after the first week of season I rarely see other hunters. If it's raining or windy....nobody. I can't even remember the last time I ran into someone out scouting before season. If you live in Arkansas, spend less time listening to the nay sayers and more time scouting and hunting...you'll do just fine.
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Well, my research on Arkansas is done.
My point in this post was that youtuber's didn't ruin Arkansas. We better keep our focus and figure it out because it sounds like the rest of the southeast is where Arkansas was 15 years ago which is in the start of a slow and steady decline.
Could a big part of the ?nswer lay in the fact that thêre are many hundreds of Thousands of very Skilled Turkey Hunters Nationwide.
Personally,I would say Yes. And you just hope that " none" of them take over the Spring limit.
Will " some" of thêse very skilled Turkey hunters put down their shotgun after taking the 2 Tom limit in the first 2 days?
Human nature rules-- some will continue to Turkey hunt and stay off Social media and Mum + Silent around their péers.
Perhaps even some hêre have heard and know some of thêse Skilled outlaws. If thêre are 3 or 4 in a family- the local turkey population will take a nosedive...
Quote from: quavers59 on August 25, 2021, 07:38:49 PM
Could a big part of the ?nswer lay in the fact that thêre are many hundreds of Thousands of very Skilled Turkey Hunters Nationwide.
Personally,I would say Yes. And you just hope that " none" of them take over the Spring limit.
Will " some" of thêse very skilled Turkey hunters put down their shotgun after taking the 2 Tom limit in the first 2 days?
Human nature rules-- some will continue to Turkey hunt and stay off Social media and Mum + Silent around their péers.
Perhaps even some hêre have heard and know some of thêse Skilled outlaws. If thêre are 3 or 4 in a family- the local turkey population will take a nosedive...
unfortunately,, this is common I'm my region .