After reading a thread the other day about someone's experience shooting a semi-auto that had 2 different gas rings, one for low power/field loads (think 7/8 or 1 ounce loads) and the other for shooting high power/heavy loads (think 1 1/4 ounce loads), and the gun "blowing up" because of shooting full power loads with the low power gas ring installed. The shooter had shot several boxes of full power loads before the failure occurred, if my memory serves me correctly. To be fair to the shooter he was not aware that there was a second ring included in the box and he threw the box away. That issue has me wondering if shooting heavy 1 5/8 ounce 20 gauge TSS loads could stress the gas systems on guns designed to handle traditional 1 1/4 ounce heavy lead loads. I know some 20 gauge semi-automatic gas guns have a single "universal" gas ring piston system, while others have the 2 ring (light load/heavy load) system, but I am concerned that continued shooting of these heavy TSS loads through either style gas system could cause serious damage to the gun, and possibly the shooter. For those that may have a better understanding of gas semi-autos, what are your thoughts on this issue? Also, would you have the same or different concerns about shooting heavy TSS loads in an inertia driven shotgun?
I know this is fixing to open a can of worms.
Now a lot of stuff going on now days. 20 ga 13/4, 17/8, 2 and 21/8.
28ga 15/8
12ga over 25/8
410s god only knows
I have see swollen chokes (all brands that I know build good stuff) I see chokes blown out barrels. Swollen barrels.
Problem is folks have got away from killing turkeys and gone to killing paper to post photos.
I know some of the autos get beat up in the back because the bolt slams against the back of the receiver.
Yes indeed!!! William is right about this. What is the limit? I am backing away from the real heavy loads and trying for even 20 inch patterns. When not so long ago I was concentrated on the high number in the 10. I have a over and under that is tru-choke thread. Loaned it to someone, got it back with a bulged barrel. This was done with someone else's hand loads. I don't know if the choke tube was loose when fired or hot load or wad not split. Found out later that he had already had issues with 3 chokes. Basically turned them inside out. I will try and get a picture of one of the tubes. Just so y'all know what not to do.
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I backed out on buying a Weatherby a few years back over the max payload of 1.25 oz.
I now have an SA 20. I don't know what the max payload is, but sold as a turkey gun I hope it can handle the few heavy loads I put thru it per year. I shoot .575 chokes in my turkey guns.
Take this for what it is worth but I have a TriStar viper G2 20 ga that is currently in the shop getting repaired. Both the viper g2 and mossberg sa20 have identical builds. The TriStar 20 ga says in the manual the max payload is 1 1/4 oz. I was patterning some 1 3/8 and 1 1/2 oz tss loads and the locking block broke. When asked if they could just send me a locking block they said I was better off to send it to them. They said usually when a locking block breaks, several other pieces break and will not cycle correctly till replaced.
I don't know if i'll get to it before Turkey season but i might.
I know back when i started hunting a had a Model 12 and 870 Wingmaster 2 3/4". Not counting the single shot 20ga i used as a kid. But thats all we had there was no TSS or Steel shot or even 3" shells at least that i knew of or can remember. We killed everything we went hunting for.
I'm going to see through a hunter's eye. Just what i really need to kill a Gobbler and at what range i have to live in. Using 2 3/4" reloads. I have killed a bunch of Turkeys and other game with a shotgun in my 50 years of shotgunning. I wonder if i haven't drank the Koolaid and lost track of my roots. I'm not convinced that a turkeys head is any harder to kill than a squirrels head.
As the old saying goes
It's the indian not the Bow.I do agree we have lost sight of that. I'm just as guilty as anyone not on a white horse here :).
I'm getting to the age that taking it easy on the gun is just about as important as taking it easy on the shooter :).
I have also broke the locking block on my viper g2. The factory sent me the new piece and I installed it. If it happens again, I will set up another 20 for turkey.
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action assembly bar on daughter's 20 ga. 1187 broke last year when she pulled trigger on gobbler. can not verify if heavy load of tss was cause of this but seemed strange as never had any problems with any 1187 over last 30 years. also, the few MIM parts in there probably did not help.
Quote from: Upfold99 on February 28, 2024, 07:22:04 AM
I have also broke the locking block on my viper g2. The factory sent me the new piece and I installed it. If it happens again, I will set up another 20 for turkey.
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Are the Tri-Stars made in Turkey? I asked that because I have a Charles Daly 28 gauge Semi auto that when I first got it I was shooting Estates and Fiocchi shells. When I would shoot the Fiocchi, the locking block would break. They just sent me another one and I put it in. I am can be a slow learner, took me 3 times to figure out what was happening. Either that or they finally made one that did not break. Must be the last one because I have shot a bunch of TSS through it and it ain't broke YET!!!! Appears to be a cast part.
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Yes they are made in turkey and yes it is a cast metal part.
Quote from: runngun on February 28, 2024, 11:27:19 AM
Quote from: Upfold99 on February 28, 2024, 07:22:04 AM
I have also broke the locking block on my viper g2. The factory sent me the new piece and I installed it. If it happens again, I will set up another 20 for turkey.
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Are the Tri-Stars made in Turkey? I asked that because I have a Charles Daly 28 gauge Semi auto that when I first got it I was shooting Estates and Fiocchi shells. When I would shoot the Fiocchi, the locking block would break. They just sent me another one and I put it in. I am can be a slow learner, took me 3 times to figure out what was happening. Either that or they finally made one that did not break. Must be the last one because I have shot a bunch of TSS through it and it ain't broke YET!!!! Appears to be a cast part.
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I had the same thing happen shooting lite deer slugs. As far as I know there are no parts available.
Been shooting 2-1/8 oz loads for the last 7 years. My stoeger m3020 hasn't missed a beat and doesn't have any signs of wear.
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Most 20 gauge semi autos if you read the manual alot of them are rated for 1 1/4 ounces of shot.
The more you go over that the more stress on internal parts. Already get more chamber pressure from TSS vs lead due to way its loaded.
Twenty gauge guns were designed around 1.25 oz loads because back in the days of lead, that was as much payload as could be stuffed into a 3" shell. The problem with heavy payload TSS shells is not necessarily too much chamber pressure. A properly designed 20 gauge (or any other gauge for that matter) may be ok on pressure thanks to super slow burning powders, but those same powders can produce huge volumes of gas to get that heavy payload moving. It is often an overgassed situation that generates too much bolt speed for the gun to handle. If the hull is sticking in the chamber, that is a warning flag on pressure, but broken action bars, locking blocks, and battered receivers indicate overgassing.
IMO, shooting more than 1&5/8 loads at more than 1100 fps is asking for trouble in a 20 gauge gas gun and is also most unnecessary.
I currently shoot TSS not because you can shoot at longer distances. I've used them since 2016 I believe and I've yet to shoot a bird past 30 yards. I like them because of the pattern density.
I shoot a Retay and after reading this I may do some research next year and switch to more "traditional" loads. If anyone has any suggestions on where to start I'm all ears.
Quote from: Mossyguy on March 13, 2024, 08:54:02 AM
I currently shoot TSS not because you can shoot at longer distances. I've used them since 2016 I believe and I've yet to shoot a bird past 30 yards. I like them because of the pattern density.
I shoot a Retay and after reading this I may do some research next year and switch to more "traditional" loads. If anyone has any suggestions on where to start I'm all ears.
I wouldn't worry as much with your Retay or other inertia guns. The internal wear wouldn't be as bad as an over gassed piston on a gas gun. I also don't shoot 2oz loads out of a 20ga. If I need more than 1-5/8oz I would just use a 12ga.
So i have a Weatherby SA08 20 gauge that i bought and set up as a primary turkey gun about 8 years ago. I started with Fed Heavyweight #7's, but since switching to factory 1-5/8oz TSS loads, I have noticed some cycling issues. Rarely have I needed a follow up shot with it, so maybe thats why I havent noticed it as much. According to Weatherby, they recommend 1300 fps as a min for cycling, which most turkey loads are advertised around 1200 fps. I was considering handloads that are tailored more to the gun, i.e. reduced payload/increased velocity to see what improvements are made. I am running the "heavy" piston and just did a major breakdown and cleaning to see what improvements, if any, are made to cycling.
Based on what I am reading here, regardless of the cycling issues, the payload could be causing damage to the internals?
Folks just go buy a cheap gun. Tss will shoot in it just as good as a High $$$$ gun. Then when it brakes throw it away and buy another cheap one. Keep your high end ones to wing shoot and so on.
Seems like this subject came up a couple of years ago. As it has already been alluded to, 20 gauge guns were designed around 1 1/4 oz max payload. I bought a Tristar Viper 20 gauge for my daughter a couple of years ago and have been very pleased. The reloading block has failed on some of these guns by people using 1 1/2 oz or more loads from what I have read. Randy Wakeman is the resident shotgun guru over on SGW. He says Armsan, the maker of Tristar and others do not test anything over 1 1/4 oz. I don't always agree with Randy but he seems to know what he's talking about and not afraid to share his opinion. Seems that shotguns can suffer metal fatigue by overloading them and you never know when one will let go. I won't be shooting anything heavier than the recommended load in the Tristar.
John