We all have an opinion, or opinions, regarding the decline in turkey numbers, and most of those include an overabundance of certain 4 legged critters patrolling the woods and fields every night.
Do you believe it's time for most, if not all, of those critters to be reclassified from furbearers with the associated seasons and harvest methods that status brings, to nuisance animals, allowing them to be killed by any humane method at any time?
The world, at least in Missouri, has changed a lot from the 1970's when I was in my 20's and did a little coon hunting for a couple of years. There were lots of houndsmen, guys who lived to hear their dogs tree a big boar coon. Just one of those big coons in prime condition could fetch a $25 or more payday, not much now, but that paid for a lot of the associated expenses of owning dogs in those days. You could pretty much hunt anywhere. Farmers considered them a nuisance and we're happy to have them killed. Coons were not endangered, but they sure weren't overpopulated either. Hardly ever saw one killed on the highway.
I can't even imagine trying to night hunt with dogs now. It would be a nightmare as the landscape has changed from family farms to thousands of small acreages with fancy homes and owners working in the city, or retired from there, or even worse, California. Turn a pack of hounds loose in that environment, and it's likely the 911 call center would be overrun with calls.
Few people trap. I get it, no, or little, monetary reward, lots of work and extremely time consuming. In other words, about the only thing killing nest robbers in my world anymore are Toyotas.
Just turkey hunting in the spring, I usually would have the opportunity to kill at least a coon or two, and I always see possums moving through the woods early in the morning.
What are your thoughts on the subject?
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I wish the MDC would use some of their unlimited funds to place a bounty on nest predators like some other state agencies have done. I think $10 a tail would help to get a few more people out targeting them.
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Coyotes and fishers abound
I have a friend that is much older than I, he has a article from back in I believe the 40's or 50's from when he and his brothers got a coyote, that was big new back then as we did not have many here in NY now they are everywhere. We both hunt them (coyote and fox) with dogs and we trap but there is no money to be made anymore, a prime pelt from a coyote may bring $40.00 but that is few and far between and normally from coyotes closer to lakes Ontario and Erie.
One thing that has really hurt is Covid, we still have pelts from the 2019 season that have not been sold and that is because the two biggest buyers of coyote and fox are China and Russia and all the borders are closed so they can't have their people to come inspect the furs so they are not buying them. I have basically driven 2019 and 2020 for free on the trap line because if he is not getting paid I can't get paid and what really sucks for me is I have him hold all that money for me for The Northeast Call Makers Summit so I will be going with next to nothing this year unlike 2 years ago when I went with over $1000.00 in my pocket to spend on nothing but calls. (and Cannolis on the way home)
I am guessing it is the same thing with coon and other animals worth cash money when skinned.
The simple solution to the predator problems is to just start killing more of those predators. Unfortunately, it is much more complex than that in that we more and more live in a society that frowns on that sort of thing. Again, the entire concept of killing certain animals so that other animals will increase in number so we will have more of those to hunt is a philosophy that way too many folks in our urbanized society are not comfortable with.
Wildlife departments that used to have to answer only to the hunting community are now having to answer to that other 97% of our population that are co-owners of our wildlife but do not hunt. Those folks are not all that enamored with killing things to create more other targets. That is the reality we have to face,...and as such, we need to start "thinking out of the box" some way or another.
I certainly don't know the answer, but I think it involves somehow finding a way to increase nesting success and poult survival outside of killing large numbers of predatory species. That kind of thing might still be tolerated in some parts of the country, but from what I have witnessed over the decades I have been around, those places are steadily dwindling. Another solution is needed.
Quote from: Ozarks Hillbilly on August 07, 2021, 11:14:47 AM
I wish the MDC would use some of their unlimited funds to place a bounty on nest predators like some other state agencies have done. I think $10 a tail would help to get a few more people out targeting them.
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South Dakota had a program like that this past year, I was up there this spring and was talking to a local when I noticed a plethora of Coon tails in the back of his pick up. He told me about the bounty and that everyone and their brother around town has been out trapping. If this bounty were enacted down south you wouldn't find a road kill nest predator in the state of Mississippi with his tail still intact. Would be easy for folks to take advantage of, but would surely help the problem some. I don't know if most states have the funds to give out on a bounty such as this though. Either way, I have been trapping since I was knee high to a grass hopper. When I was in high school I was making upwards of 300 per week as my sole income Nov-Feb selling the coons to our African American brothers. I still sell coons but since moving across state lines I don't have nearly the number of clients I used too, I trap on my local national forest for the fun of it once I get tired of deer season and still have a few clients to sell to that I've found in my new town. It is a win-win-win situation. Less coons on the landscape, money in my pocket, and happy customers to feast on their Coon meat.
I've recently gotten into Coon hunting with dogs, man it's fun. Wish more folks would get into it. If only their was a popular YouTube Coon dog hunting group to inspire everyone lol.
Most of what I have seen, or interpret, from state agencies and wildlife biologists are a hesitancy to promote an overly aggressive approach to trapping or predator control. They no forgo that as a viable option and promote habitat instead. I 100% agree that suitable habitat is critical for thriving turkey populations, but it just seems logical to me that predator population increases should change that equation. Is 500 acres with 75 predators as detrimental as the same 500 acres with 200 predators? While I agree with the predator / prey relationship within trapping or predator control is important and should be balanced among predator species so as not to be counter productive, it just doesn't make sense to me to not recognize the negatives of an over abundance. I believe some of that is due to political correctness. This is one reason I think bounties are rare. Shouldn't the management thought process towards predators change when out of balance?
Considering hawks and snakes, I think the mindset has changed. Right or wrong, the truth is that in the past many farmers and country folks, such as those raising chickens, etc., shot every one they saw. That's doesn't seem to be as common as before.
Arkansas has expanded opportunities to trap and kill predators, so it's up to concerned hunters at this point. I think more are buying into the need for it, so hopefully more effort is put into it. I wish the state would prohibit baiting with corn, although I don't expect that with it being such big $$$ now.
I agree with Ozarks Hillbilly's post:
I wish the MDC would use some of their unlimited funds to place a bounty on nest predators like some other state agencies have done. I think $10 a tail would help to get a few more people out targeting them.
Right on point Neil, that is a pretty accurate description of a lot of places now. I don't want a wholesale slaughter of predators, but their numbers have to be reduced if we want to continue to have decent game populations. Predators are good for the ecosystem, in a proper ratio, but i think by personal observation, there are far too many now as opposed to 5,10, 15 years ago.We either have game for predators, or hunters, and last i checked, nest robbers don't buy hunting licenses or pay taxes. Just my 2 cents.
Not only four-legged predators but winged predators as well. Years ago a now retired DEC friend...who was a turkey hunter as well...said if it perches it should be shot! Perhaps tongue in cheek but he had a point nonetheless.
Dog proof traps around corn feeders are super effective. I trap a lot of coons off the areas I hunt. I've seen more turkeys as a result
For arkansas I'd love to see a required turkey permit of maybe $20. Throw 40,000 turkey hunters at $20 = 80,000 $10 bounties. You could run dog proofs and catch 6-8 coons a day pretty easy. Sure some people would abuse the system but I think it would be worth a try over a 5 year period to see if a difference is made. That's enough money to get people out trapping in my opinion. Especially in rural areas
As the older generations of us disappear, you will see less and less people trapping or predator hunting. I guess you could call it the nature of the beast .. But i will somewhat agree nature has a way of taking care of itself to extent.
My feeling is if you want to control predators you going have to do it yourself . Very few states are going to start a bounty program , too much squalling from the public .
Quote from: tracker vi on August 07, 2021, 07:42:09 PM
My feeling is if you want to control predators you going have to do it yourself . Very few states are going to start a bounty program , too much squalling from the public .
So agree with you, probably best to take care of it and not publicize it ..
Quote from: Greg Massey on August 07, 2021, 05:33:11 PM
As the older generations of us disappear, you will see less and less people trapping or predator hunting. I guess you could call it the nature of the beast .. But i will somewhat agree nature has a way of taking care of itself to extent.
Put it all over social media and the tube and it will take off.
Quote from: owlhoot on August 07, 2021, 08:51:46 PM
Quote from: Greg Massey on August 07, 2021, 05:33:11 PM
As the older generations of us disappear, you will see less and less people trapping or predator hunting. I guess you could call it the nature of the beast .. But i will somewhat agree nature has a way of taking care of itself to extent.
Put it all over social media and the tube and it will take off.
Ha ha! And on some forum, somewhere, hunters will be commenting on how youtube has ruined predator hunting!!
Quote from: the Ward on August 07, 2021, 08:58:29 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on August 07, 2021, 08:51:46 PM
Quote from: Greg Massey on August 07, 2021, 05:33:11 PM
As the older generations of us disappear, you will see less and less people trapping or predator hunting. I guess you could call it the nature of the beast .. But i will somewhat agree nature has a way of taking care of itself to extent.
Put it all over social media and the tube and it will take off.
Ha ha! And on some forum, somewhere, hunters will be commenting on how youtube has ruined predator hunting!!
Exactly .lol
The few coon dog hunters around here rarely actually shot the coons they tree anymore . They just let the dogs tree , then leave em be . We let folks run there dogs on our place , with the exception they " have to shot the coons . I trap a good bit also , but with nobody else doing the same in my area, I'm barely putting a dent on population it appears .
Somebody please start a fad on face book , make coon killin a " cool " thing ! Make travel travel coon hunting look fun . Take some hero pics with a few pelts with a flat bill cap on , lay the coons next to you and smoke cigars in celebration!! Come on fellas , get with it already ...
Quote from: Howie g on August 07, 2021, 10:47:27 PM
The few coon dog hunters around here rarely actually shot the coons they tree anymore . They just let the dogs tree , then leave em be . We let folks run there dogs on our place , with the exception they " have to shot the coons . I trap a good bit also , but with nobody else doing the same in my area, I'm barely putting a dent on population it appears .
Somebody please start a fad on face book , make coon killin a " cool " thing ! Make travel travel coon hunting look fun . Take some hero pics with a few pelts with a flat bill cap on , lay the coons next to you and smoke cigars in celebration!! Come on fellas , get with it already ...
Yes!
Coon hunters don't kill them because they are worthless dead. It's all about competing in the coon world. And the money is big time.
In arkansas falling fur prices and falling poult recruitment are mirror images of each other when the data is put into graph form.
It's the number 1 issue in my opinion. Our habitat is similar/same, our weather is most definitely wetter which isn't good for nesting hens as it increases predation while sitting and leads predators back to the nest. Of course pneumonia in poults also happens in wet patterns.
Turkeys were stocked into arkansas during times of low predator numbers. They flourished under these conditions. Predators have exploded and now the turkeys are suffering. Habitat trumps predators in theory but much of the habitat where they were stocked wasn't perfect to start with.
Even if you have great dogs and kill every Coon you tree dog proof traps are still much more effective than hounds. I have Coon hounds so I could be biased, but it's just a fact. Got the hounds for two fold reason. Help the turkeys and lots of nighttime fun with the kids, but if you don't love it it sure is hard to leave a good, warm fireplace to go outside and fool with a few hard headed dogs!!!
I used the dog proofs on protein feeders and it is crazy how quick you can catch 20-30 coons around here.
I have the upmost respect for guys running coon and coyotes with dogs. A ton of work and investment to get good results. But i imagine it is an extremely exiting way to hunt when the pack cuts a hot track and begins their song!
Quote from: GobbleNut on August 07, 2021, 01:11:01 PM
the entire concept of killing certain animals so that other animals will increase in number so we will have more of those to hunt is a philosophy that way too many folks in our urbanized society are not comfortable with.
Wildlife departments that used to have to answer only to the hunting community are now having to answer to that other 97% of our population that are co-owners of our wildlife but do not hunt. Those folks are not all that enamored with killing things to create more other targets. That is the reality we have to face,...and as such, we need to start "thinking out of the box" some way or another.
100% correct. Sadly our society is becoming more liberal with each passing generation. Hunters, in the eyes of liberals are barbarian slobs that are out in the woods heinously and maliciously killing Bambi and other sweet, innocent denizens of the forest.
They will not support such predator reducing programs because they see
US as the enemy, not coyotes, bobcats, foxes, coons and possums.
So yes, while relaxing restrictions on predator hunting would help both turkeys and hunters, the solution is much more complex than that.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
I do alot of predator trapping, the fur market has been in the dumps for the last 5 or 6 years or more. When the money isn't there the trapping falls to the wayside. Running a trap line is ALOT of work, especially with a full time job. It's a dying sport. I still do it, for predator control, I tan my own hides and make use of them, but most give up till the price rebounds, or there's a market for it. When there are too many predators, game animals suffer, along with diseases in the predators themselves. It's a sad fact. Bounties on predators can be a complicated situation. For instance, take coyotes. If a bounty was placed on them, everyone would take to the hills, and peoples dogs would be shot by mistake and so on. One option is to take up the trapping sport and each do his or her part
No, predators get way more blame than they deserve for declining turkey populations.
I hunt old-school ,. How much time do u spend in the woods. I'm not blaming all of this on predators, but they are a BIG problem on turkey populations. For the last month, I have been watching a hen with her young. Almost on a daily basis. She started out with 9, as I'd yesterday she had 6. I know it's the same hen cause she's bearded. Predators need controlled, and right now there's too many
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on August 09, 2021, 02:30:33 AM
No, predators get way more blame than they deserve for declining turkey populations.
How so? I think predators/nest robbers are one of the leading causes of declining turkey populations in my area, along with several other factors.
Ran a trap line beginning in the 60's until I completed my education. My occupation did not offer the time necessary to run a line. Resumed trapping again upon my retirement. My observation ,in my area, the amount and number of species of predators has skyrocketed in those nearly 40 years. My non professional thought is that the increase in predator numbers are a significant impact to the turkey population.
Quote from: RutnNStrutn on August 08, 2021, 01:00:42 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on August 07, 2021, 01:11:01 PM
the entire concept of killing certain animals so that other animals will increase in number so we will have more of those to hunt is a philosophy that way too many folks in our urbanized society are not comfortable with.
Wildlife departments that used to have to answer only to the hunting community are now having to answer to that other 97% of our population that are co-owners of our wildlife but do not hunt. Those folks are not all that enamored with killing things to create more other targets. That is the reality we have to face,...and as such, we need to start "thinking out of the box" some way or another.
100% correct. Sadly our society is becoming more liberal with each passing generation. Hunters, in the eyes of liberals are barbarian slobs that are out in the woods heinously and maliciously killing Bambi and other sweet, innocent denizens of the forest.
They will not support such predator reducing programs because they see US as the enemy, not coyotes, bobcats, foxes, coons and possums.
So yes, while relaxing restrictions on predator hunting would help both turkeys and hunters, the solution is much more complex than that.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
I heard somebody once say they knew we were in trouble when the movies Bambi and The Fox and the Hound were released, I fully understand what he meant.
Quote from: arkrem870 on August 08, 2021, 09:18:14 AM
Coon hunters don't kill them because they are worthless dead. It's all about competing in the coon world. And the money is big time.
In arkansas falling fur prices and falling poult recruitment are mirror images of each other when the data is put into graph form.
It's the number 1 issue in my opinion. Our habitat is similar/same, our weather is most definitely wetter which isn't good for nesting hens as it increases predation while sitting and leads predators back to the nest. Of course pneumonia in poults also happens in wet patterns.
Turkeys were stocked into arkansas during times of low predator numbers. They flourished under these conditions. Predators have exploded and now the turkeys are suffering. Habitat trumps predators in theory but much of the habitat where they were stocked wasn't perfect to start with.
There are so many of them they should shoot them anyway, they is competition and big money in the coyote hunting world too but they still shoot them, in season of course.
Predators are part of the problem but they're not nearly the major reasons for the decline. Predators are an easy target for all the blame as Game Departments make changes to address the decline and hunters get their feathers ruffled and whine like a bunch of cry babies when they lose a few days of "their" season or have to lose one of "their" tags . It's just an easy target for blame to make hunters feel better about ignoring the Elephant in the room and the fact that Humans contribute way more to the decline than predators ever will. It's like hunters scream and whine fix this problem now! Then when the game departments take steps to address the issue, NO!!! It's all the predators fault, it's not us!! What a joke, LOL.
Predators of the nest, yeah they do take out a fair few. But it's laughable when hunters point at coyotes as the main reason for the decline.
In the Southeastern US the timber harvest is the biggest threat. In addition to that you look at the genes, the turkeys never had much diversity in the gene pool with all the trap and transplant.
Here in NC, raccoon trapping season ends February 28. We need to extend the trapping season to at least May 1 or 31. Would help in catching nest robbers and young poult eaters.
I've talked to NCWRC Biologist about this idea, but haven't seen it go anywhere yet.
Would like NWTF or TTF to throw in on this idea in every state and give it five years to work.
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Just throw a 22 in your rig and shoot every varmint you see.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on August 10, 2021, 12:58:16 AM
In the Southeastern US the timber harvest is the biggest threat.
Umm, I'm not sure where you live, but to my experience, it's not timber harvest, but overdevelopment. I recently moved to Tennessee, but prior to that I spent decades in Florida. In FLA, most forests are wiped out for more development, aka. neighborhoods, shopping malls, etc. But in GA, SC, and AL, it's more rural and most timber harvests are followed by replanting of more pines.
I respectfully disagree with your assessments of the problem.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
Quote from: RutnNStrutn on August 12, 2021, 01:28:23 AM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on August 10, 2021, 12:58:16 AM
In the Southeastern US the timber harvest is the biggest threat.
Umm, I'm not sure where you live, but to my experience, it's not timber harvest, but overdevelopment. I recently moved to Tennessee, but prior to that I spent decades in Florida. In FLA, most forests are wiped out for more development, aka. neighborhoods, shopping malls, etc. But in GA, SC, and AL, it's more rural and most timber harvests are followed by replanting of more pines.
I respectfully disagree with your assessments of the problem.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
I would imagine that state by state or areas of the country that conditions are different .
Over development isn't a big problem here in rural Missouri. Near the cities yes.
Timber harvest isn't a big deal here in most areas here either.
Lots of private areas don't get hunted very much or not at all , yet the turkey are disappearing.
Here the state PARKS are not hunted, yet the turkeys are disappearing. No hunter pressure , over harvest there. You go to state FORESTS where hunting pressure is intense, then it can be a problem.
The nest raider raccoon, opossums are thick as ticks everywhere, coyotes are too, but I don't think the coyotes catch and kill a lot of turkeys?
Anti's ? Don't support any form of hunting.
We already have predator-varmint hunting and trapping seasons. They are way underutilized.
I wish that I could remember the details of how this coincided, but our lowest numbers here around my house were in the early 90's. I remember the mid to late 80's when you could hear turkeys anywhere on any given morning and then it went to almost nothing overnight. During that period we also started having coons wander up in our yard and wander around aimlessly due to being blind from distemper. As I understand it, distemper is one of natures ways of controlling overpopulation. Turkey numbers started to rebound and build after that and by the mid to late 90's we were back in business and pretty much have held steady to this day. I can't help but think that this was probably not coincidental??? It will be interesting to see what a natural die off of nest predators would do to the population. If there are as many coons as some of you describe we can't be far off.
Quote from: RutnNStrutn on August 12, 2021, 01:28:23 AM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on August 10, 2021, 12:58:16 AM
In the Southeastern US the timber harvest is the biggest threat.
Umm, I'm not sure where you live, but to my experience, it's not timber harvest, but overdevelopment. I recently moved to Tennessee, but prior to that I spent decades in Florida. In FLA, most forests are wiped out for more development, aka. neighborhoods, shopping malls, etc. But in GA, SC, and AL, it's more rural and most timber harvests are followed by replanting of more pines.
I respectfully disagree with your assessments of the problem.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
Where I hunt it is timber harvest that effects the turkeys I hunt.
Quote from: owlhoot on August 12, 2021, 05:36:17 AM
Quote from: RutnNStrutn on August 12, 2021, 01:28:23 AM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on August 10, 2021, 12:58:16 AM
In the Southeastern US the timber harvest is the biggest threat.
Umm, I'm not sure where you live, but to my experience, it's not timber harvest, but overdevelopment. I recently moved to Tennessee, but prior to that I spent decades in Florida. In FLA, most forests are wiped out for more development, aka. neighborhoods, shopping malls, etc. But in GA, SC, and AL, it's more rural and most timber harvests are followed by replanting of more pines.
I respectfully disagree with your assessments of the problem.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
The nest raider raccoon, opossums are thick as ticks everywhere, coyotes are too, but I don't think the coyotes catch and kill a lot of turkeys?
Where are your hunting grounds? I know in Dixie the predators and nest raiders take their toll. Coyotes and bobcats stalk and kill turkeys, and raptors do as well. In FLA and SC I've had raptors attack my decoys, and had yotes and bobcats come stalking in to my calling and real gobblers sounding off.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.