Did I explain this right?

[Sir-diealot]

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Did I explain this right? I belong to a group on Facebook that does lots of sportsman related giveaways, they were asking for ideas for prizes and I suggested Apex TSS and the gentleman asked me to explain TSS I am not sure if I got everything right, please let me know if I made any mistakes. I will not be able to reply for a bit, I have to leave as soon as I post this but will see replies later in the morning. Thanks for the help.

Apex is Tungsten Steel Shot, it is normally used in turkey hunting and I think maybe duck and goose hunting as well but am not honestly sure of that. I would like to see it offered in number 8 shot which is legal in my state though in all honesty most people I know use it in number 9 shot in both 12 and 20 gauges. I think it is also used in .410 and 16 gauges as well in number 9 shot. Perhaps if you choose to offer in a gift certificate could be offered to Apex (By far the highest rated company for it) Benefits to TSS are much denser patterns and better knockdown power with a lighter load due to the density of the Tungsten over lead. You can get many more pellets into a shell using smaller pellets than would traditionally be used and they will have equal or from all I have read more killing power (By this I mean kinetic energy, imagine it as using a arrow with 125 grain broadhead vs 75 grain broadhead, it will have more pushing power than the lighter broadhead) Another advantage it has is extended range over traditional range though quite frankly I do not advocate taking more than a 40 yard shot, but that is a personal choice. Also much tighter grouping due to the larger amount of shot in each shell. Here is a article on it and I will also try to find a video and attach it here as well as a comment to my comment. https://www.splitreed.com/all-stories/apex-ammo-turkey

[Tom007]

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Well said..

[turkeymanjim]

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TSS stands for TUNGSTEN SUPER SHOT. It has a density of 18 grams per cubic centimeter, where lead is 11.3 grams per cubic centimeter.

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[LaLongbeard]

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About like every written description I’ve read about TSS a lot of misinformation.
Comparing a 75 grain broadhead to a 125 grain implying the TSS is the 125 is wrong. Maybe if you said three 25 grain broadheads compared to one 75  grain with the 75 being lead, but who shoots three arrows at a time. The analogy doesn’t make sense. 

[Sir-diealot]

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Well said..

Thank you.

TSS stands for TUNGSTEN SUPER SHOT. It has a density of 18 grams per cubic centimeter, where lead is 11.3 grams per cubic centimeter.

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I did wonder about that, thank you for the correction.

About like every written description I’ve read about TSS a lot of misinformation.
Comparing a 75 grain broadhead to a 125 grain implying the TSS is the 125 is wrong. Maybe if you said three 25 grain broadheads compared to one 75  grain with the 75 being lead, but who shoots three arrows at a time. The analogy doesn’t make sense. 

It was meant to compare the weight and density of the TSS vs Lead

[Yelper]

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TSS is offered in #8 shot at APEX.
https://apexmunition.com/collections/turkey-tss/st-3-12-gauge-3-2oz-qty-5-per-box/

20ga 3? 1-5/8oz
$41.49

Shot Size   
8
Clear
Available In Stock
20ga 3" 1-5/8oz quantity

12ga 3? 2oz
$48.49

Shot Size   
8
Clear
Available In Stock

[Sir-diealot]

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TSS is offered in #8 shot at APEX.
https://apexmunition.com/collections/turkey-tss/st-3-12-gauge-3-2oz-qty-5-per-box/

20ga 3? 1-5/8oz
$41.49

Shot Size   
8
Clear
Available In Stock
20ga 3" 1-5/8oz quantity

12ga 3? 2oz
$48.49

Shot Size   
8
Clear
Available In Stock

Thanks bud.

[LaLongbeard]

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About like every written description I’ve read about TSS a lot of misinformation.
Comparing a 75 grain broadhead to a 125 grain implying the TSS is the 125 is wrong. Maybe if you said three 25 grain broadheads compared to one 75  grain with the 75 being lead, but who shoots three arrows at a time. The analogy doesn’t make sense. 

It was meant to compare the weight and density of the TSS vs Lead

I understand what comparison you were trying to make but it is wrong. You asked if you got it right....you did not. TSS is not heavier than lead when comparing the larger lead to smaller TSS ie a TSS #7,8,or 9 is nowhere near as heavy as a lead # 5 or 6

[Sir-diealot]

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Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

About like every written description I’ve read about TSS a lot of misinformation.
Comparing a 75 grain broadhead to a 125 grain implying the TSS is the 125 is wrong. Maybe if you said three 25 grain broadheads compared to one 75  grain with the 75 being lead, but who shoots three arrows at a time. The analogy doesn’t make sense. 

It was meant to compare the weight and density of the TSS vs Lead

I understand what comparison you were trying to make but it is wrong. You asked if you got it right....you did not. TSS is not heavier than lead.

Okay, now I understand what you were trying to say, thank you very much for the correction, I did not understand what you were trying to say in your first reply. Remember, I am always willing to learn something new.

[g8rvet]

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TSS is denser than lead.   A similar size pellet (volume) of TSS will weigh more (be heavier) than a similar size pellet of lead.  But no one uses it like that.  They use smaller shot which has equivalent retention of energy of larger lead pellet due to it's higher density.  Principles of both Newton's First and Second Laws of motion. 

[Sir-diealot]

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TSS is denser than lead.   A similar size pellet (volume) of TSS will weigh more (be heavier) than a similar size pellet of lead.  But no one uses it like that.  They use smaller shot which has equivalent retention of energy of larger lead pellet due to it's higher density.  Principles of both Newton's First and Second Laws of motion.

Sounds like I was trying to explain it correctly and maybe used some terms incorrectly or just did not explain it properly. Thank you very much for the reply.

[LaLongbeard]

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TSS is denser than lead.   A similar size pellet (volume) of TSS will weigh more (be heavier) than a similar size pellet of lead.  But no one uses it like that.  They use smaller shot which has equivalent retention of energy of larger lead pellet due to it's higher density.  Principles of both Newton's First and Second Laws of motion.

Lol. Most if not all TSS shot shells are actually lower velocity than most lead or heavy shot loads. A lighter much lighter like a third of the weight #9 going slower than a much heavier Lead or heavy #5 has neither more speed or weight and so does not have more energy. Yes 3 times more TSS will have more hits but each individual shot of #9 does not have more energy. Maybe the shot being smaller helps with wind drag and penetration maybe not. At hunting distances I’ve never had trouble with any shot penetrating a bird.
     I cannot understand why this is so widely misunderstood. Common sense alone should tell you if a #9 TSS was as heavy as lead and also had 3 times more bbs per shot shell then the shot would weigh  3 times as much. You think you need a recoil pad on your 20 gauge try shooting a 6oz shot shell lol.

[paboxcall]

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Most if not all TSS does not travel more slowly than larger lead, thinking TSS is slower is silly. For example, my 20 gauge TSS load is chrono'd at 1,200 fps, while my 12 gauge Hevi 7s are 1,050 fps so TSS is 10% faster than stock Hevi loads. That 10% velocity increase is important.

Velocity times mass produces momentum. Higher velocity, higher mass, greater momentum. Lower velocity, and/or lower mass, then the result is less momentum. That's physics. So retained momentum downrange is where TSS trumps lead and Hevi, and why larger TSS, like #4, is scary lethal way, way down there.

This is my understanding of the phenomenon of TSS. Let's take 2 oz. of #5 lead and 2 oz. of #9 TSS exiting a barrel both travelling at say, for example, 1,150 fps.

At 40 yards, down range momentum is the key. #5 lead more quickly sheds velocity due to it larger size from increased drag and lower mass resulting in less retained energy down range. Conversely #9 TSS suffers significant less drag due to its smaller size, and retains more energy because of its greater mass. Mass times velocity equals momentum. Higher mass with greater retained velocity equals more momentum. Ballistic gel tests validate this.

The #9 also wins on penetration efficiency, as the smaller size creates less friction loss increasing the pellet's ability to penetrate and break bone better than the larger #5. The #5 lead pellet is larger and incurs higher friction loss, plus lead is softer deforming much more easily upon impact - that increasing deformation further exacerbates energy dissipation because increased surface area produces reduced velocity, thereby reducing momentum and ultimately reducing depth of penetration. TSS is harder and will not deform, keeping its friction loss minimized and increasing penetration.

In the end these same size loads, 2 oz of #5 lead and 2 oz. #9 TSS, both weigh exactly 2 ounces. Both are exiting the barrel in the example at the same velocity of 1,150 fps. But the larger lead load incurs more drag, shedding velocity more quickly, and having less mass suffers momentum losses more quickly than the smaller more dense TSS.

What am I missing? Will 2 oz. of #5 lead work at 40 yards? Yep and with the right choke you can get 100+ in a 10" circle. Will  2 oz. of #9 TSS work at 40 yards? Yep, even better because in a smaller 20 gauge the 10" pattern count will be three to four times that of the #5 lead.

[Sir-diealot]

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Most if not all TSS does not travel more slowly than larger lead, thinking TSS is slower is silly. For example, my 20 gauge TSS load is chrono'd at 1,200 fps, while my 12 gauge Hevi 7s are 1,050 fps so TSS is 10% faster than stock Hevi loads. That 10% velocity increase is important.

Velocity times mass produces momentum. Higher velocity, higher mass, greater momentum. Lower velocity, and/or lower mass, then the result is less momentum. That's physics. So retained momentum downrange is where TSS trumps lead and Hevi, and why larger TSS, like #4, is scary lethal way, way down there.

This is my understanding of the phenomenon of TSS. Let's take 2 oz. of #5 lead and 2 oz. of #9 TSS exiting a barrel both travelling at say, for example, 1,150 fps.

At 40 yards, down range momentum is the key. #5 lead more quickly sheds velocity due to it larger size from increased drag and lower mass resulting in less retained energy down range. Conversely #9 TSS suffers significant less drag due to its smaller size, and retains more energy because of its greater mass. Mass times velocity equals momentum. Higher mass with greater retained velocity equals more momentum. Ballistic gel tests validate this.

The #9 also wins on penetration efficiency, as the smaller size creates less friction loss increasing the pellet's ability to penetrate and break bone better than the larger #5. The #5 lead pellet is larger and incurs higher friction loss, plus lead is softer deforming much more easily upon impact - that increasing deformation further exacerbates energy dissipation because increased surface area produces reduced velocity, thereby reducing momentum and ultimately reducing depth of penetration. TSS is harder and will not deform, keeping its friction loss minimized and increasing penetration.

In the end these same size loads, 2 oz of #5 lead and 2 oz. #9 TSS, both weigh exactly 2 ounces. Both are exiting the barrel in the example at the same velocity of 1,150 fps. But the larger lead load incurs more drag, shedding velocity more quickly, and having less mass suffers momentum losses more quickly than the smaller more dense TSS.

What am I missing? Will 2 oz. of #5 lead work at 40 yards? Yep and with the right choke you can get 100+ in a 10" circle. Will  2 oz. of #9 TSS work at 40 yards? Yep, even better because in a smaller 20 gauge the 10" pattern count will be three to four times that of the #5 lead.

Very well explained and easy to understand. Thank you very much.

[LaLongbeard]

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Most if not all TSS does not travel more slowly than larger lead, thinking TSS is slower is silly. For example, my 20 gauge TSS load is chrono'd at 1,200 fps, while my 12 gauge Hevi 7s are 1,050 fps so TSS is 10% faster than stock Hevi loads. That 10% velocity increase is important.

Velocity times mass produces momentum. Higher velocity, higher mass, greater momentum. Lower velocity, and/or lower mass, then the result is less momentum. That's physics. So retained momentum downrange is where TSS trumps lead and Hevi, and why larger TSS, like #4, is scary lethal way, way down there.

This is my understanding of the phenomenon of TSS. Let's take 2 oz. of #5 lead and 2 oz. of #9 TSS exiting a barrel both travelling at say, for example, 1,150 fps.

At 40 yards, down range momentum is the key. #5 lead more quickly sheds velocity due to it larger size from increased drag and lower mass resulting in less retained energy down range. Conversely #9 TSS suffers significant less drag due to its smaller size, and retains more energy because of its greater mass. Mass times velocity equals momentum. Higher mass with greater retained velocity equals more momentum. Ballistic gel tests validate this.

The #9 also wins on penetration efficiency, as the smaller size creates less friction loss increasing the pellet's ability to penetrate and break bone better than the larger #5. The #5 lead pellet is larger and incurs higher friction loss, plus lead is softer deforming much more easily upon impact - that increasing deformation further exacerbates energy dissipation because increased surface area produces reduced velocity, thereby reducing momentum and ultimately reducing depth of penetration. TSS is harder and will not deform, keeping its friction loss minimized and increasing penetration.

In the end these same size loads, 2 oz of #5 lead and 2 oz. #9 TSS, both weigh exactly 2 ounces. Both are exiting the barrel in the example at the same velocity of 1,150 fps. But the larger lead load incurs more drag, shedding velocity more quickly, and having less mass suffers momentum losses more quickly than the smaller more dense TSS.

What am I missing? Will 2 oz. of #5 lead work at 40 yards? Yep and with the right choke you can get 100+ in a 10" circle. Will  2 oz. of #9 TSS work at 40 yards? Yep, even better because in a smaller 20 gauge the 10" pattern count will be three to four times that of the #5 lead.

I’m saying most of the lead or heavy loads I’ve seen the TSS in the same gauge is slower.
What lead loads are you shooting at 1150 or less?   Both Apex and Nitros have a lower velocity than the lead # 5s I shoot at 1300 FPS. with  Apex and Nitros at most 1250 but the majority around 1150  especially in the sub gauges. So again a single #5 at 1300fps has more energy than a #9 at 1150-1200 and even if they both were at 1300 the 5 still has more energy. If you find the slowest lead or heavy shot load and the fastest TSS load you’d barely  be even on energy per individual shot. The only fair comparison would be same velocity TSS vs lead or heavy then tell me which has more energy?
     I’ve seen about a half dozen turkeys shot with TSS #8 and 9s I didn’t see any of the bone breaking devastation. At ranges the HVY  shot would have shredded the head the TSS did no visible damage it killed them alright but not any better than regular old lead.