Pines and turkey numbers in the southeast

[PaytonWP]

I found this article and it has some maps with the amount of pines that have been planted since 1980. Part of the article states that by 2020 the amount of timberland will have quadrupled since 1980. Scroll down and study the maps and tell me if you see any link to a decline in your area's population. I'd love to know how many mast trees were cut down during that time period.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/thousands-of-southerners-planted-trees-for-retirement-it-didnt-work-1539095250

[Sixes]

Not paying to read it, but here in Georgia, there is no telling how many thousands of acres have been lost to pine plantations. that have hurt both turkeys and deer.

[Nathan_Wiles]

I dunno about this article but...
I have a hunting buddy that is what I consider and expert on turkeys and hunting. He has suggested that there is a link between the age class of the pines and the population in a given area. This is based on 30+ years hunting and observing and many, many miles walked. I have found this same pattern as well once I was aware to look for it.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ChesterCopperpot]

Where I hunt in South Carolina most of its pine timber holdings with forest service easements. I think what was said about age class of pines above is important. The young thick plantings I rarely see turkeys using at all, but I see lots of deer using it for cover especially late season after leaf drop when the bucks push into the thickest places they can find. Obviously hardwoods are prettier woods to look at and offer mast but since most are talking about how pines are a detriment to game I'll just toss out a few examples of ways I've seen them using it year after year down there. First and foremost, I think we always want to talk about mast mast mast, acorn acorns acorns, when the reality is that makes up a very small window in an annual diet. Not to say it's not important, obviously it is, but if they lived or died off acorns they'd have to have feed the game for a penny a day commercials running on the TV from mid-November to mid-September.

So a few benefits, one, they tend to burn the pines a lot more than they do the hardwoods where I hunt and they do it late winter / early spring meaning a whole lot of open country for birds come April. If they've just burned the woods you better be in there because I will guarantee those birds will be picking through it like a barbecue. Ask a forester and they'll tell you the same thing. They burn and the birds will be there the next day. I've killed a dozen birds with ash up to their knees. In the months after the burn you get the green up with grass filling the understory. This past year they actually sowed clover in a lot of the burns I hunted and it was gorgeous. The deer and turkey were in heaven with food coming out their ears, likewise good places to hide nests and fawns. The last thing I'll say is, when they log, those first five years after the cut make for some places the turkey and deer love, especially the deer. Lots of new growth, briary browse that holds deer over through winter, bugs and soft greens and nesting cover for turkey and quail. From everything I've read and seen, game thrives in disturbance. With most places being unwilling and/or unable to actively manage forest anymore (for instance in the mountains of North Carolina where I live), active pine offers one of the few places with scheduled and regimented disturbance. Luckily down there where I hunt it's mixed enough too that you still get the hardwoods and pastureland next to the pines. The more diversity in a place the better it seems to be.

[Gobbler428]

I hunt in central South Carolina and have done so since the late 70's. The majority of the land that has not been developed, i.e. interstate highways, housing developments, commercial shopping areas etc. is owned by large timber companies. Pines are the "Money Tree" and on some tracks I currently hunt it is often hard to even find a tree large enough to place a deer stand on. Miles and miles of clear cuts and small pine thickets with hardly a hardwood to be seen. The only hardwoods of any size are found mostly in the creek bottoms where they are either hard to get timber out of or have to be left because of the legal regulations relating to cutting near creeks and sometimes they don't follow these. It's all about the $$$ and although they say they care about the wildlife on their land, the proof is in their actions. Forget about controlled burns and just sit in there and listen for the helicopter coming to spray the newly cut clear cut.  Sometimes they do this just
after turkey season when the hens are still nesting.  Anything green will soon be brown including small hardwoods. Less hardwoods means less food for deer, turkey and other wildlife. This is just another reason to add to the long list of why we are seeing the population of both species decreasing. In the future, if this continues, the only hardwoods left will be on some private and and State and Federal land. Very sad and I'll now get off my soapbox now.

[bbcoach]

Not paying either but here's my 2 cents.  First this publication is based on trying to help people make money from city folk that have zero experience on this subject and are biased toward this fact.  Secondly, I live and hunt in an area that has millions of acres of pine plantations and the wildlife DON"T seem to be hurt at all by this type of farming.  Deer and turkeys, thrive in this environment.  I have hunted planted pines for 40 years and the habitat is managed with wildlife in mind.  Our lease consists of about 4500 acres of planted pines and low swamp areas and Weyerhauser does a great job of creating habitat that supports ALL kinds of wildlife.  This post would be extremely long if I described the 30 year progression of pine farming so I would recommend you read up on the benefits.  On our lease and surrounding acreage here in Eastern NC, turkey populations have made a Great comeback over the last 20 years and they have plenty of habitat to lay eggs, raise their young (read my post from yesterday, Poults Everywhere this morning) and feed the flock due to planted pines.  I would not put a lot of stock in A NEW YORK liberal publication.  By the way, our deer season starts the second Saturday in September with archery season, has a 2 1/2 month gun season and a 6 tag season, if you choose to fill those 6 tags, with plenty of HEALTHY deer as well.

[Turkeytider]

Where I hunt in South Carolina most of its pine timber holdings with forest service easements. I think what was said about age class of pines above is important. The young thick plantings I rarely see turkeys using at all, but I see lots of deer using it for cover especially late season after leaf drop when the bucks push into the thickest places they can find. Obviously hardwoods are prettier woods to look at and offer mast but since most are talking about how pines are a detriment to game I'll just toss out a few examples of ways I've seen them using it year after year down there. First and foremost, I think we always want to talk about mast mast mast, acorn acorns acorns, when the reality is that makes up a very small window in an annual diet. Not to say it's not important, obviously it is, but if they lived or died off acorns they'd have to have feed the game for a penny a day commercials running on the TV from mid-November to mid-September.

So a few benefits, one, they tend to burn the pines a lot more than they do the hardwoods where I hunt and they do it late winter / early spring meaning a whole lot of open country for birds come April. If they've just burned the woods you better be in there because I will guarantee those birds will be picking through it like a barbecue. Ask a forester and they'll tell you the same thing. They burn and the birds will be there the next day. I've killed a dozen birds with ash up to their knees. In the months after the burn you get the green up with grass filling the understory. This past year they actually sowed clover in a lot of the burns I hunted and it was gorgeous. The deer and turkey were in heaven with food coming out their ears, likewise good places to hide nests and fawns. The last thing I'll say is, when they log, those first five years after the cut make for some places the turkey and deer love, especially the deer. Lots of new growth, briary browse that holds deer over through winter, bugs and soft greens and nesting cover for turkey and quail. From everything I've read and seen, game thrives in disturbance. With most places being unwilling and/or unable to actively manage forest anymore (for instance in the mountains of North Carolina where I live), active pine offers one of the few places with scheduled and regimented disturbance. Luckily down there where I hunt it's mixed enough too that you still get the hardwoods and pastureland next to the pines. The more diversity in a place the better it seems to be.

Absolutely no question concerning the benefits of appropriately timed controlled burns. Why people can`t understand that is beyond me. California going up in flames every year, if nothing else, should have proven that.

[Sixes]

Are some of you guys saying that timber companies burn their pines?  I've leased from a timber company for 25 years and they have never burned our pines. I wish they would at least every couple of years, but the one I lease from (actually the third different company) does not control burn.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Are some of you guys saying that timber companies burn their pines?  I've leased from a timber company for 25 years and they have never burned our pines. I wish they would at least every couple of years, but the one I lease from (actually the third different company) does not control burn.

Where I hunt the Forest Service burns the timber company tracts, as well as their own tracts. But it's the Forest Service doing the prescribed burns. Even where I live in the mountains the Forest Service will come out and burn private land for owners of large tracts. One place I hunt up here is 600 acres a buddy owns that they burned about five years ago, all hardwoods and it turned that place into gorgeous, gorgeous woods. The turkeys have loved it.

[LaLongbeard]

I know of one place in La I used to hunt often. It is nearly 100% planted pines with just a tiny amount of hardwood along the small creeks. They do not burn this area and it is a jungle of briers and yopon thickets amongst the pines. I've called Gobblers thru areas I wouldn't have thought a rabbit would negotiate. The hog population is as bad as could be and a lot of deer. I doubt a turkey stands a chance of getting a acorn against the competition. Everything would seem to be stacked against turkeys in this area but it has more turkeys than huge areas of National forest with older age pine hardwood mixed habitat. The NF is burned on a regular schedule plenty of hardwoods all thru the area they plant green patches etc. and the turkey population is very low? I don't know what the problem is but it doesn't seem to be planted pines in my area. I've walked thru thousands of acres of NF and not seen a single track or heard a single turkey sound.

[greencop01]

I believe that Tom Kelly's 'Hatful of Rabbits' has a quote on the front dust jacket about the fat turkeys from pine plantations must order pizza or something to that effect.

[Jstocks]

I believe that Tom Kelly's 'Hatful of Rabbits' has a quote on the front dust jacket about the fat turkeys from pine plantations must order pizza or something to that effect.

Most folks who make their living working for timber harvesters and pine planters typically take a public stance that is not contradictory to their employment.

[RutnNStrutn]

Not paying to read it, but here in Georgia, there is no telling how many thousands of acres have been lost to pine plantations. that have hurt both turkeys and deer.

Same where I hunt in SC. It's either agricultural or forestry. The amount of logging has intensified over the years, and it has impacted the turkeys negatively. Where there were once sprawling woodlands loaded with turkeys, there is now large swaths of young pines with the associated weed growth. Vast areas of what once was prime turkey habitat is now thick, nasty, briars with small pines. Where once squadrons of turkeys roamed, now you barely see a turkey in the vast logged areas.
It's not just coyotes, but also loss of habitat affecting turkey populations. 

Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

[briton]

I work for a forestry consulting business on the south east and have done various types of forestry work for a longtime. I am in the woods pretty much 6 days a week, most of the time by daylight. The hardwoods being cut is detrimental to the turkey population and pines will forever replace the once natural wood. The "smz" areas around creeks and drains hold the only hardwoods on many of the thousands of acres that we manage in several counties. The turkeys are forced to stay in these smz areas bc the pines are so thick in most cases (either from being young and bushy or briars head high after thinning) and use them as much as possible. Pines can be a suitable habitat but not by choice, they need "transition" zones but hundreds of acres of pine to ten to 15 acres of smz hardwoods is not ideal in the least. Spraying and burning in pines is a great way to make suitable turkey habitat but at 30$ an acre plus firebreaks most ppl scoff at that idea. In my experience the more hardwood a tract has, the more turkeys it has. There needs to be landowner incentives/rewards from the state and government for retaining hardwoods on larger tracts of private property. With the hardwood becoming more and more rare, the price of it is over twice the price of pine logs making it more sought after by mills, timber buyers, and loggers. The hardwood will continue to disappear and be replaced with pine, the population of turkeys will not increase with the amount of hardwood decreasing in my opinion. The only thing we can do is try and manage pine with fire and food plots the best we can.

[Spurs]

I have a theory that is based solely on experience in my region, but it goes like this:

Timber harvest methods have dramatically shifted in the past decade or so.  In SE Arkansas, the old idea was to thin around 15 years, thing again around 20, thing again at 30, then finally a clear cut (rough numbers).

The shift has become; thin at 12, again at 15, clear at 20.  The amount of area has changed dramatically as well.  Small tract timber harvests are a thing of the past as timber companies in my area have come and gone.  Used to be Georgia Pacific ground everywhere.  Now we got Weyerhaeuser, GP, Carter Jones, Potlatch, etc.  This has created an effect of over harvesting and large swaths of land where habitat shifts are too overwhelming for nervous animals (i.e. turkey/quail) take flight over fight.


My biggest take away though is that this is only about 25% of the problem with turkey.  The other 75% is weather effecting nesting, the natural drop in population after the huge increase in the early 2000s (what goes up must come down), human intervention (probably the least amount of the problem IMO), and predators (2nd lowest impact IMO).

If I had to put a number on biggest impacts:
1. Weather
2. Natural drop
3. Predators
4. Hunan intervention