True POA and POI shotguns don't exist???

[Bowguy]

The best POA/POIs I've owned were older remingtons and usually 870s. Have had 2 newer 20ga 1187s that both shot below the bead with rib leveled. Mention this issue with wing and clay shooters and you will get a tirade about gun fitment. Maybe it's just me but a gun should shoot 50/50 or 60/40 with the rib leveled and bead on target. I have an assortment of shotguns and like some of them capable of hunting both turkeys and other stuff without the need to install sights.

That's old school mentality and I'd say more old school probable. A looser load used to sometimes to mostly be doable. W today's loads/chokes it's not as probable especially when you change things up. 
Even back in the 80s-90s I was putting sights on a gun sometimes as it needed it. Seems nowadays most need it. For 30 years though I used the same gun w a bead sight n the Winchester supremes. The minute that very same gun (an 835 ulti mag) tried longbeards I had to sight gun, never changed anything else. Same choke (not overly tight), same gun. Why the change??? It's not about just the gun, after 30 years it became problematic? Not true.
It's what I stated earlier. Dif things affect poi. Never just a gun. Read my post about rifles. Ask anyone shooting a single projectable gun if poi move? They do. We're trying to send a real tight pattern most often down range. Think along different lines yet anything is possible. Things change most often.
Now gun fitment is not a tirade. That's why I'm against youth guns by adults. It is possible in this sport though

[Tom007]

Amen my friend. Good info....

[jrmcclure]

Best thing you could do is either buy one and start working on it with different ammo or let a gun Smith correct poi, if it's off..

Or the route I tend to take is buy, sell, and trade. I buy used at a decent price try a couple loads and chokes through it. If I'm happy and it shoots poa/poi it stays. If I'm not happy or it doesn't perform the way I want it gets sold or traded at similar prices I paid for it and im not out much except time and shells. Might have to buy 4-5 before you luck into a really good one that clearly preforms.

I recently had to get rid of a yildiz single shot. Over 13" off at 30 yards and wasn't worth the hassle to try and fix it.

[mightyjoeyoung]

The Benelli line of shotguns, believe it or not,  weren't made with the turkey hunter in mind. They're designed to be flushing guns, shooting poi where the bird would be flushing either away or to the shooter.  Most of them shoot between 6 and 10 inches higher than poa and this is normal.

Has this been "offcially" stated by Benelli about the intended use and POI/POA? I only ask because this seems pretty significant.

Well, I sold them for about 10 years and own one.  It's been long their standard to have a high, flushing pattern or 70/30.  It can be adjusted out to some extent, but too far and you affect fit. 

[the Ward]

Most Benelli models have a ramped rib. It tapers up from muzzle to breach. If you line up the beads and aim it like a rifle like we do in  turkey hunting, it will pattern high vs the point of aim. My vinci will shoot almost dead on at 40 yards with a 3mm Champion Easy hit front bead with a certain choke and load. I do run an optic on it for turkey hunting though to eliminate any variables. My son has an sbe3 that shoots a little high for him, maybe 4"? It shot about 2" high for me. This was with a couple of Longbeard 3" 5s through a kicks .665 gobbling thunder at 30 yards. We were patterning steel shot waterfowl loads that day and i had a few of the longbeards  to try out just to see what it would do.For all the shotguns i have owned over the years, i only remember 2 that shot dead on for me, an old 870 with a 28" barrel and a old single shot stevens 16 gauge that was my dad's.

[Gutsdozer]

The Benelli line of shotguns, believe it or not,  weren't made with the turkey hunter in mind. They're designed to be flushing guns, shooting poi where the bird would be flushing either away or to the shooter.  Most of them shoot between 6 and 10 inches higher than poa and this is normal.

Has this been "offcially" stated by Benelli about the intended use and POI/POA? I only ask because this seems pretty significant.

Well, I sold them for about 10 years and own one.  It's been long their standard to have a high, flushing pattern or 70/30.  It can be adjusted out to some extent, but too far and you affect fit.

Sounds like you had or have a shop? What do you prefer to shoot as a good do all shot gun of the ones mentioned? I keep referring to the big 3 since they seem to be on the higher end of what I want out of a shotgun.

[THattaway]

The best POA/POIs I've owned were older remingtons and usually 870s. Have had 2 newer 20ga 1187s that both shot below the bead with rib leveled. Mention this issue with wing and clay shooters and you will get a tirade about gun fitment. Maybe it's just me but a gun should shoot 50/50 or 60/40 with the rib leveled and bead on target. I have an assortment of shotguns and like some of them capable of hunting both turkeys and other stuff without the need to install sights.

That's old school mentality and I'd say more old school probable. A looser load used to sometimes to mostly be doable. W today's loads/chokes it's not as probable especially when you change things up. 
Even back in the 80s-90s I was putting sights on a gun sometimes as it needed it. Seems nowadays most need it. For 30 years though I used the same gun w a bead sight n the Winchester supremes. The minute that very same gun (an 835 ulti mag) tried longbeards I had to sight gun, never changed anything else. Same choke (not overly tight), same gun. Why the change??? It's not about just the gun, after 30 years it became problematic? Not true.
It's what I stated earlier. Dif things affect poi. Never just a gun. Read my post about rifles. Ask anyone shooting a single projectable gun if poi move? They do. We're trying to send a real tight pattern most often down range. Think along different lines yet anything is possible. Things change most often.
Now gun fitment is not a tirade. That's why I'm against youth guns by adults. It is possible in this sport though

You read into my comments what you wanted. When you pattern a gun with a variety of chokes and a variety of loads and it consistently shoots low below the beads or left or right, and you are lining up everything centered paying attention to a rear reference (center of rib, leveled) then I think it's safe to say it's the gun. Gun fitment be damned. So you are faced with one of two choices, live with it and get sights or find another gun. I've patterned enough to have a little experience with both old loads and new. Thanks and have a great spring.

[LaLongbeard]

My 870 Wingmaster has been putting the shot at poa/poi since it was made in the 1960's. Every Wingmaster I've owned did the same. There may be up and down variations but the pattern was centered never off to one side or the other. You have to decide which load /shot size you'll hunt with and figure out where to hold. The reason all the shotguns sold today hit all over the place is that people will keep buying them. In the 1960's if someone sold a shotgun that did not hit were it was aimed they would have went bankrupt, no one in their right mind would buy a crooked shooting shotgun. Nowadays manufacturers know people will gladly buy a 1500$ shotgun then spend another 100$-500$ on an aftermarket sight so why bother. I've known one person that had trouble with his Wingmaster and Federals flight control wads but any other regular shot was fine including Nitro, and Apex TSS.
    The 870 Express is famous for random patterns mostly crooked choke tube threads. I've seen one that Sumtoy  cut and rechoked that shot straight as mine, the choke was crooked from factory.
     You have to decide if you want the latest plastic Chinese made wonder  gun or a dependable American made shotgun that shoots were the bead points.

[Bowguy]

The best POA/POIs I've owned were older remingtons and usually 870s. Have had 2 newer 20ga 1187s that both shot below the bead with rib leveled. Mention this issue with wing and clay shooters and you will get a tirade about gun fitment. Maybe it's just me but a gun should shoot 50/50 or 60/40 with the rib leveled and bead on target. I have an assortment of shotguns and like some of them capable of hunting both turkeys and other stuff without the need to install sights.

That's old school mentality and I'd say more old school probable. A looser load used to sometimes to mostly be doable. W today's loads/chokes it's not as probable especially when you change things up. 
Even back in the 80s-90s I was putting sights on a gun sometimes as it needed it. Seems nowadays most need it. For 30 years though I used the same gun w a bead sight n the Winchester supremes. The minute that very same gun (an 835 ulti mag) tried longbeards I had to sight gun, never changed anything else. Same choke (not overly tight), same gun. Why the change??? It's not about just the gun, after 30 years it became problematic? Not true.
It's what I stated earlier. Dif things affect poi. Never just a gun. Read my post about rifles. Ask anyone shooting a single projectable gun if poi move? They do. We're trying to send a real tight pattern most often down range. Think along different lines yet anything is possible. Things change most often.
Now gun fitment is not a tirade. That's why I'm against youth guns by adults. It is possible in this sport though

You read into my comments what you wanted. When you pattern a gun with a variety of chokes and a variety of loads and it consistently shoots low below the beads or left or right, and you are lining up everything centered paying attention to a rear reference (center of rib, leveled) then I think it's safe to say it's the gun. Gun fitment be damned. So you are faced with one of two choices, live with it and get sights or find another gun. I've patterned enough to have a little experience with both old loads and new. Thanks and have a great spring.

I didn't read anything into you wrote I wanted. Was giving the op different and imo much more accurate information. Now if as you said a gun is really off I'd sell it too but realize guns shoot different w dif loads.
If you have a prob w gun fitment so be it but it can't be denied. Some guys will never know what they don't know.
Great thing about forums many guys have dif ideas and someone ignorant to it all could benefit.

[THattaway]

I suspect a lot of patterning problems with modern guns are due to variances with screw in chokes. In my experience a shotgun that shoots true usually shoots true with most anything you feed through it. I've polished Winchesters and Remingtons to find it trued up the barrel to the beads. Those tended to have rough tool marked barrels to start with.

[the Ward]

I love my plastic wonder gun, but its made in Italy, not china. And i wouldn't trade it for anything.                                               
I agree with Thattaway  in that with an interchangeable choke system you have a lot of variables that can affect poi/poa. On interchangeable barrel guns, you also have the mag tube/barrel/ receiver fit. With all this critical fitting, it's a miracle of machining that guns shoot as close to poa that they do.

[Brs2427]

The Ithaca turkey guns have barrels made to the receiver, but regular Ithaca 37s the barrels thread in similar to rifle barrel with just a half twist. It helps to make a nice consistent lock up. All mine shoot point of impact point of aim

[Reloader]

I pattern a lot of guns every year and can tell you from experience it's purely a gamble to get one of any make that will shoot a turkey load/choke true to bead.  While many claim certain guns are meant to shoot high, even some of them shoot dead on at times. The most consistently true shotguns for me has been Remington, but OTOH I've also seen a bunch of them that were off as well.  More times than not it boils down to either an nonconcentric choke bore, the choke itself, or a barrel that is not straight with the receiver.

[LaLongbeard]

I don't consider shooting high to be a problem, unless your talking about a foot or more. Centered pattern is what I want if I have to hold a couple inches low I'm not putting a scope on my gun for that. You can try different loads and they may get the elevation closer or maybe #4s instead of #6 but if your gun is shooting high and 8" left or vice verse you have a crooked choke bent barrel or a piece of crap. Some of the very best poa/poi Guns were the fixed choke Remingtons, before we realized we needed a softball size pattern to kill a turkey at 30 yards?

[longislandloco]

Some of the very best poa/poi Guns were the fixed choke Remingtons, before we realized we needed a softball size pattern to kill a turkey at 30 yards?

......and realized we "need" camo guns, a camo costume, a camo face mask and 3 1/2" bone crushers. I guess Pop was a better hunter than us with his full choked 2 3/4" gun.