Maximum lethal range of LBXR 20 gauge

[tman91]

Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal.   You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc.   You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.

That used to always be true before LBs, but I suspect the LB 6s in 20 ga (at only 1000 fps) may run out of gas before the pattern does. Wouldn't trust them past 40.

So some hevi shot loads are only 1100 FPS out of a 12Ga and kill turkeys at 40 with out concern!  You really think 100 fps is going to make that much difference??

[coonhunter]

Good point.  I just for one do not see a concern at 40 yards.  Been turkeys killed with #7 lead and i'm sure it had slowed down a lot by then...
But if it's a concern then just use another type shot like the #7 heavyweight. 

[g8rvet]

Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal.   You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc.   You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.

Only when the loads are all the made the same.  Penetration and energy kill.  If you are talking a max 40 yards, as I agree we all should be, then what you say holds true.  If someone uses your statement to take 65 yard shots because they can pattern out there, then what you say is incorrect.  You are way oversimplifying shotgun ballistics with that statement.

[tman91]

Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal.   You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc.   You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.

Only when the loads are all the made the same.  Penetration and energy kill.  If you are talking a max 40 yards, as I agree we all should be, then what you say holds true.  If someone uses your statement to take 65 yard shots because they can pattern out there, then what you say is incorrect.  You are way oversimplifying shotgun ballistics with that statement.

Agreed

[tman91]

Good point.  I just for one do not see a concern at 40 yards.  Been turkeys killed with #7 lead and i'm sure it had slowed down a lot by then...
But if it's a concern then just use another type shot like the #7 heavyweight.

I've got heavyweights, but that's not the purpose of this thread. 

[coonhunter]

Good point.  I just for one do not see a concern at 40 yards.  Been turkeys killed with #7 lead and i'm sure it had slowed down a lot by then...
But if it's a concern then just use another type shot like the #7 heavyweight.

I've got heavyweights, but that's not the purpose of this thread.

10/4.

I wonder if this would hold true for the 12 ga magnum long beards. They too are running slower!

[tman91]

Good point.  I just for one do not see a concern at 40 yards.  Been turkeys killed with #7 lead and i'm sure it had slowed down a lot by then...
But if it's a concern then just use another type shot like the #7 heavyweight.

I've got heavyweights, but that's not the purpose of this thread.

10/4.

I wonder if this would hold true for the 12 ga magnum long beards. They too are running slower!

The 4's at mv:1050 fps are good to 40.  Idk any numbers, just personal experience

[owlhoot]

Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal.   You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc.   You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.

Well if that was proven to be be true then why don't everyone just shoot a 2 oz load of 9 lead shot . The factory loads and the custom loaders would be doing it. Hevi, heavyweight and tss loads wouldn't be even a thought and cheap lead loads would rule the market.
The 3 1/2" 12 gauge would not have been even used. Heck a 20 gauge would be all anyone needed for anything.
Steel shot for waterfowl could be 1000 fps and 8 shot.
Pattern density is great but you still need penetration and power to get the job done.

[owlhoot]

Anyway at that velocity, shoot the 5's better energy at 40 yards away . Get a 100 plus in the 10" with your combo and you should be good to go.
Other than that shoot the Federal heavyweight 7's and have no doubt.

[Ihuntoldschool]

The reason everyone doesn't shoot a 2 ounce load of 9 shot lead is because it won't hold the pattern as far as say a 7 1/2 or a 6 lead shot will.   Pattern fails before penetration. The lighter "9" shot as you talk about will give way and fly from center faster than larger, heavier shot such as 7 1/2 or 6 like I mentioned. Thats why such small shot like that is reserved for clay pigeons.    Longbeards do not change this at all.  Nothing does, it is a scientific fact that cannot be stressed enough.  I repeat Pattern Fails Before Penetration.   

And for Mr. g8rvet, I never suggested anyone should take 65 yard shots.   In fact, in previous posts I have suggested they should not. 

[Ihuntoldschool]

Some of you guys would be well served to spend more time hunting and shooting game and a little less time inside a magazine article, chart or a graph.  Foot pounds are a great way to measure trains but are irrelevant when it comes to killing turkeys.  It's not like we are trying to stomp them to death.   Pattern Density is where its at when it comes to shotguns.   Pattern your shotgun, not Penetrate your shotgun.   I don't make this stuff up.

Down South they refer to it as having more money than sense.

[g8rvet]

And for Mr. g8rvet, I never suggested anyone should take 65 yard shots.   In fact, in previous posts I have suggested they should not.

I know this will shock you, but I was agreeing with your point.  But only if it is inside 40 yards, where any legitimate turkey load will have lethal velocity and energy. I assume that was what you were talking about, but you did not say that.

The point I was making, is that if someone took your advice that said only worry about pattern, i guarandangtee you that my 20 gauge with Fed HW #7 will have a killing "pattern" at 50 yards.  And that  one should not just look at pattern to be the only marker for if a shot is acceptable.  Because with or without a legit pattern, closer shots are more lethal.  You might be able to get a good pattern with #6 LB at 50 yards.  #6 lead at 50 yards has questionable energy which will lead to questionable penetration which will lead to crippling shots.

As to not caring about energy, it is just a way to compare penetration on loads before you waste time trying them out.  I agree I don't worry much about it on turkey, but I studied it a little in deciding what I can kill snow geese with and what my ranges are.  Just a rule of thumb, but it helps to know what your gun can do.  On snows, I leave the #4 steel at home and hunt with #3 if there are lots and it is overcast and windy (closer shots)and #2 if it is clear and calm (longer shots). 

[owlhoot]

Dang I was hoping that the 9 shot example would make a case for the penetration fails before pattern .

[BandedSpur]

Dang I was hoping that the 9 shot example would make a case for the penetration fails before pattern .

That is absolutely the case. Lead 9s at 1200 fps penetrate less than 1.25" @ 20 yds, where the patterns are still fantastic. A little dose of common sense goes a long way. It takes both pattern and penetration.

[g8rvet]

Dang I was hoping that the 9 shot example would make a case for the penetration fails before pattern .

That is absolutely the case. Lead 9s at 1200 fps penetrate less than 1.25" @ 20 yds, where the patterns are still fantastic. A little dose of common sense goes a long way. It takes both pattern and penetration.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. So what you seem to be saying is that, in fact, pattern does not fail before penetration? 

If IHOS had said that at standard turkey ranges and with standard turkey loads, in most cases, pattern before penetration,  then that would have been correct.   Like in most things, a simple explanation is rarely completely correct.