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Author Topic: Longbeard vs longbeard?  (Read 6147 times)

Offline diyj98

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2020, 11:05:18 AM »
Can someone please explain the physics that cause a projectile of the same weight, say a #6 pellet, that starts at an initial higher velocity to slow down faster?  Maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't seem to be supported by any science.

Offline BandedSpur

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2020, 08:42:04 AM »
I am not a physicist, but being a retired airline pilot, know a thing or two about drag and objects moving through the air, so I hope this explanation makes sense to you. Drag affects any object moving through the atmosphere - airplanes, cars, as well as shotgun pellets. The moving object has to push the molecules of air out of its way, which causes drag. The faster the object, the greater the drag. That is the main reason that it takes more fuel to fly an airplane or drive your car at a higher speed - that extra fuel is required to overcome the increased drag.

So a shotgun pellet launched at a higher velocity has to push more molecules of air out of its way in a given interval of time than one launched at a slower velocity. Once that pellet leaves the muzzle of your gun, no more energy is being added to it to overcome that drag; it obviously can't burn more fuel like an airplane or a car, so it is slowing down as soon as it leaves the muzzle. And it is slowing down at a faster rate than the pellet that is started slower due to the increased drag, but only as long as its velocity is greater than the pellet that was started slower. Once the faster pellet has slowed to the same velocity as the slower pellet, they will then decelerate at the same rate. So eventually at some distance, the faster pellet which is experiencing more drag, will have slowed to the same velocity as the pellet that was started slower. From then on, the two will experience equal drag and will decelerate at the same rate.

At effective shotgun ranges, the faster pellet is always going to have a velocity and energy advantage over the pellet that is started slower. In your example of a #6 pellet, if one is launched at 1200 fps and another at 1050 fps, they would have to travel approximately 375 yards for their velocities to be equal. After that distance they will decelerate at the same rate, which is really irrelevant to our discussion. But what is relevant is that at 40 yards, the 150 fps advantage of the faster pellet has decreased to only 49 fps (662 vs 613) because the faster pellet experienced greater drag over that 40 yd distance than the pellet that was started slower.




Offline Harty

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2020, 08:53:52 AM »
Nice explanation in laypersons language. Thanks bandedspur.

Offline diyj98

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2020, 11:36:24 AM »
I have a friend who is shotgun garu. He claims that, generally a lower velocity round will pattern better than a higher one. He claims the increased velocity tends to blow patterns. I know this isn't always true but maybe a good rule of thumb...
That part is normally true.  We used to port barrels in shooting match guns for tighter patterns.  Penetration was certainly lost, but the slower shot pattern normally stayed together better.  Penetration wasn't a concern for shotguns used only for match purposes.

Offline diyj98

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2020, 11:40:29 AM »
I am not a physicist, but being a retired airline pilot, know a thing or two about drag and objects moving through the air, so I hope this explanation makes sense to you. Drag affects any object moving through the atmosphere - airplanes, cars, as well as shotgun pellets. The moving object has to push the molecules of air out of its way, which causes drag. The faster the object, the greater the drag. That is the main reason that it takes more fuel to fly an airplane or drive your car at a higher speed - that extra fuel is required to overcome the increased drag.

So a shotgun pellet launched at a higher velocity has to push more molecules of air out of its way in a given interval of time than one launched at a slower velocity. Once that pellet leaves the muzzle of your gun, no more energy is being added to it to overcome that drag; it obviously can't burn more fuel like an airplane or a car, so it is slowing down as soon as it leaves the muzzle. And it is slowing down at a faster rate than the pellet that is started slower due to the increased drag, but only as long as its velocity is greater than the pellet that was started slower. Once the faster pellet has slowed to the same velocity as the slower pellet, they will then decelerate at the same rate. So eventually at some distance, the faster pellet which is experiencing more drag, will have slowed to the same velocity as the pellet that was started slower. From then on, the two will experience equal drag and will decelerate at the same rate.

At effective shotgun ranges, the faster pellet is always going to have a velocity and energy advantage over the pellet that is started slower. In your example of a #6 pellet, if one is launched at 1200 fps and another at 1050 fps, they would have to travel approximately 375 yards for their velocities to be equal. After that distance they will decelerate at the same rate, which is really irrelevant to our discussion. But what is relevant is that at 40 yards, the 150 fps advantage of the faster pellet has decreased to only 49 fps (662 vs 613) because the faster pellet experienced greater drag over that 40 yd distance than the pellet that was started slower.

I can go along with most of that except I still don't believe that the pellets would ever be going the same velocity at 40 yards or any other distance except at rest.   

Offline hvacrbuildernc

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2020, 07:05:35 PM »

My shots offhand 20 and 30m, 835 Carlson longbeard choke, 3” 1 3/4 rounds. POI is off, but the 30 looked a little sparse where it did hit to me, please correct me if I’m mistaken, would it be worth trying the 1 7/8? Sorry if the questions are novice, pretty new to turkey and shotgun game.

Offline Missouri hunter

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2020, 09:09:22 AM »

My shots offhand 20 and 30m, 835 Carlson longbeard choke, 3” 1 3/4 rounds. POI is off, but the 30 looked a little sparse where it did hit to me, please correct me if I’m mistaken, would it be worth trying the 1 7/8? Sorry if the questions are novice, pretty new to turkey and shotgun game.

First thing I would recommend is getting a good butt pad or if you have access to a bench. You’ll get steady and learn exactly where your shotgun is shooting with a given load.

Your 30 is looking pretty thin if you want to shoot to 40yd. You definitely could try the 1 7/8 oz or just a different shot size. My gun was shooting great with 1 3/4 oz 5 shot long beards, but after getting a new box the patterns fell apart.... I’m not sure what was up with it but at 40yds I just had a hole in the paper and about half the hits I was getting before. I tried some 1 7/8 oz and the 40yd was amazing but it’s so tight at even 30yds I don’t know if I’ll use it.
Double x 1 3/4 5 shot is given me a pretty decent patter out to 40 in a Carlson.660 ported. I’ll probably use that for my first hunt of the year.
Hope you find something you like.

Offline hvacrbuildernc

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2020, 09:16:32 AM »

My shots offhand 20 and 30m, 835 Carlson longbeard choke, 3” 1 3/4 rounds. POI is off, but the 30 looked a little sparse where it did hit to me, please correct me if I’m mistaken, would it be worth trying the 1 7/8? Sorry if the questions are novice, pretty new to turkey and shotgun game.

First thing I would recommend is getting a good butt pad or if you have access to a bench. You’ll get steady and learn exactly where your shotgun is shooting with a given load.

Your 30 is looking pretty thin if you want to shoot to 40yd. You definitely could try the 1 7/8 oz or just a different shot size. My gun was shooting great with 1 3/4 oz 5 shot long beards, but after getting a new box the patterns fell apart.... I’m not sure what was up with it but at 40yds I just had a hole in the paper and about half the hits I was getting before. I tried some 1 7/8 oz and the 40yd was amazing but it’s so tight at even 30yds I don’t know if I’ll use it.
Double x 1 3/4 5 shot is given me a pretty decent patter out to 40 in a Carlson.660 ported. I’ll probably use that for my first hunt of the year.
Hope you find something you like.

Thanks, the local academy sports actually has the xx on sale for 14 a box so I may give that a go as well as trying some 1 7/8 number 5 or some number 6, I’ll be on a bench this weekend. This was a quick test run when I had a spare minute.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Missouri hunter

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Re: Longbeard vs longbeard?
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2020, 09:43:17 AM »

My shots offhand 20 and 30m, 835 Carlson longbeard choke, 3” 1 3/4 rounds. POI is off, but the 30 looked a little sparse where it did hit to me, please correct me if I’m mistaken, would it be worth trying the 1 7/8? Sorry if the questions are novice, pretty new to turkey and shotgun game.

First thing I would recommend is getting a good butt pad or if you have access to a bench. You’ll get steady and learn exactly where your shotgun is shooting with a given load.

Your 30 is looking pretty thin if you want to shoot to 40yd. You definitely could try the 1 7/8 oz or just a different shot size. My gun was shooting great with 1 3/4 oz 5 shot long beards, but after getting a new box the patterns fell apart.... I’m not sure what was up with it but at 40yds I just had a hole in the paper and about half the hits I was getting before. I tried some 1 7/8 oz and the 40yd was amazing but it’s so tight at even 30yds I don’t know if I’ll use it.
Double x 1 3/4 5 shot is given me a pretty decent patter out to 40 in a Carlson.660 ported. I’ll probably use that for my first hunt of the year.
Hope you find something you like.

Thanks, the local academy sports actually has the xx on sale for 14 a box so I may give that a go as well as trying some 1 7/8 number 5 or some number 6, I’ll be on a bench this weekend. This was a quick test run when I had a spare minute.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds like a good plan. I would think one of those would get you something good to 40yd.
Have a good one.