Turkey Reaping

[mookyj]

Mr. Joyner, can you please explain your allegation that any of the behaviors in your piece are unethical?

unsafe=unethical for purposes of my blog post

Just because you haven't or don't do it does not make it unethical.  No matter how bigtime you think you are.  Your soap box seems more like a high horse.

bigtime? hardly it doesn't pay my mortgage. You don't like my opinion, so you make a comment on my ego....poor argument on your part. Not sure why this is being spun as a personal....... I started of the blog saying I was on a big soap box and why....or did you just skip over that detail?

[mookyj]

Now, to be clear, Mooky is not trying to ban anything. Just expressing an opinion on a practice, as is his right.

That is not true at all. Here is what he says:

If you come to the same or similar conclusion as I, let your wildlife agencies know, and hopefully ban this practice...

g8rvet is correct, if you agree with me, make your voice heard Banning it is my opinion, You either agree or not, I have no power over others opinion other than putting it out there for all of you to ponder.  It is my right as it is yours to express an opinion. Nothing stopping you from putting out your own blog. It's that simple

ultra real looking decoys are mitigating circumstances.

Wait a sec.  Are you now saying that using ultra real dekes is asking for it too?  Just trying to understand. 

Yes he is.

I cannot go along with $100-$400 decoys made to be ultra realistic or done as production line taxidermy. Seriously, if you put out a taxidermy mount or one of these über expensive decoys, how is one going to explain that away at trial for a shooting incident in the turkey woods.

Yes I am, the decoy industry has gotten away with pushing the envelope on this convincing hunters they need to blow big money on dekes. Very effective marketing, however reckless it may be. Yes I am calling companies out that do this, and eventually they will be found to have some responsibility into putting out products that are so real looking that they may be mistaken for the real thing. Ultimately the shooter gets nailed for it, but a good trial attorney will educate you right quick on what your percentage of responsibility you have. No doubt you 'll get your panties in a wad over my statement, but if you look at this objectively, nothing I say here is profound, you just don't like it as it is detrimental to your business. My comments about realistic decoys was in coupling with reaping method where in certain situations either the stalker may get shot, or may inadvertently shoot a guy with a ultra real looking gobbler decoy. I really hate repeating all this, and tired of all these convoluted retorts when I said it plain and simple the first time.

the whole mess of you throwing up arguments about calls, camo and all that is a poor attempt to dilute my major points. You don't aim at camo. or aim at calls, if you convince us into thinking your top of the line model decoy is the most realistic thing on the planet, guess what, some one will likely point a gun at it, if they wait long enough to see it not move (assuming it is not a motion equipped model or one  with animitronics technology-which btw is probably next) then they don't shoot, it they don't wait, guess what, your primo $$ decoy gets shot maybe you get shot. I am happy that you haven't run into that yet nor your customers, and hope that you/them never do, but to think the possibility is not a real concern is foolish. NO doubt you and a few others in here will want court documents/police reports to prove the possibility even exists (sarcasm intended)

I have addressed my intentions every way from Sunday on this, so save the taunts and other BS. You don't have to agree with my perspective, There are many more out there than the peanut gallery here that do agree, and they too have voices both as industry professionals as well as forum members here and other sites. There will be changes coming to address where all this is going, and the naysayers might have to deal with rules they don't agree with. Most states publicly discourage it, others already make it illegal. It is for a good reason and some of you need to come to grips with it. No gobbler anywhere is worth a tragedy that could easily have been prevented. Sadly, I think most of you can understand the concepts of defensive driving, but cannot apply the same to this situation.

[GobbleNut]

The point, succinctly, that a number of individuals have tried to make, including myself, is that it has to be proven that there is a problem before proposing to ban something.  Currently, there is little evidence to support the hypothesis that this tactic is dangerous, other than the preconceived notion on the part of some individuals that there are significant numbers of hunters who participate in turkey hunting that do not have the common sense to positively identify their target before shooting.

I don't particularly like the idea of hunting turkeys by using this technique,...mainly because I don't think it takes much skill or woodsmanship to do it, and I have always had this romantic attachment to the notion that turkey hunting was different because, to be consistently successful, you had to develop skills and woodsmanship.  However, to condemn this hunting method as being unsafe when, at this point in time, that condemnation does not really seem to have much factual support, is a bandwagon I am not willing to jump on. 

...And I still hate calling that technique "reaping",...what an awful term for any kind of hunting activity.

[Marc]

I do not know enough about this particular subject to comment on the validity of creating regulation against it ...

But, I do not for one second believe that just because something is legal, it is therefore ethical...  I also believe that hunters should indeed be the biggest stewards of the outdoors and hunting.

If a method gives an obvious unfair advantage to the hunters (say electronic calls), or proves to be unsafe (such as wearing a realistic turkey hat during turkey season), I would say it would be in the hunters best interest to make such illegal, or create some regulation.

As hunters, we are the ones both looking out for the best interest of the game we chase, the safety of other hunters, and our own hunting rights.  It would seem to me that interceding before a topic becomes a public interest is in the benefit of ourselves and our future rights as hunters...

On the other hand, it would be impossible, as well as counterproductive to create regulations that would adhere to the personal ethics of all hunters...  I am not a fan of regulation or imposing such unless there is a true benefit to the game being chased, the safety of hunters, or the rights of other hunters (i.e. setting up on another hunter's decoy spread as an example)...

That being said, this does seem to be a topic/method worth a second look by hunters and those who regulate hunting...  It seems to me to be equally foolish to create unnecessary regulations as it would to ignore the necessity of others...

[GobbleNut]

I do not know enough about this particular subject to comment on the validity of creating regulation against it ...

But, I do not for one second believe that just because something is legal, it is therefore ethical...  I also believe that hunters should indeed be the biggest stewards of the outdoors and hunting.

If a method gives an obvious unfair advantage to the hunters (say electronic calls), or proves to be unsafe (such as wearing a realistic turkey hat during turkey season), I would say it would be in the hunters best interest to make such illegal, or create some regulation.

As hunters, we are the ones both looking out for the best interest of the game we chase, the safety of other hunters, and our own hunting rights.  It would seem to me that interceding before a topic becomes a public interest is in the benefit of ourselves and our future rights as hunters...

On the other hand, it would be impossible, as well as counterproductive to create regulations that would adhere to the personal ethics of all hunters...  I am not a fan of regulation or imposing such unless there is a true benefit to the game being chased, the safety of hunters, or the rights of other hunters (i.e. setting up on another hunter's decoy spread as an example)...

That being said, this does seem to be a topic/method worth a second look by hunters and those who regulate hunting...  It seems to me to be equally foolish to create unnecessary regulations as it would to ignore the necessity of others...

Well stated Marc.  I personally agree with everything you wrote here.  Establishing regulations based on factual safety issues, or even on valid wildlife management issues, is one thing.  Making rules and laws based on one's own personal objections to certain forms of hunting is another altogether. 

We will see where this newfound fascination with "reaping" (ughh) leads us.  But where we go with it could end up being the proverbial "very slippery slope".

[BC]

Well I know one thing.


I sure am glad we have guys like Mike who will save us from ourselves and govern things the way they see fit. After all they know what's best for all of us based off their opinion that they derived from no basis of fact whatsoever.


Thanks Mike..... 

[spaightlabs]

Mr. Joyner, can you please explain your allegation that any of the behaviors in your piece are unethical?

unsafe=unethical for purposes of my blog post

Just because you haven't or don't do it does not make it unethical.  No matter how bigtime you think you are.  Your soap box seems more like a high horse.

bigtime? hardly it doesn't pay my mortgage. You don't like my opinion, so you make a comment on my ego....poor argument on your part. Not sure why this is being spun as a personal....... I started of the blog saying I was on a big soap box and why....or did you just skip over that detail?

Now that you have deflected, would you mind going back and seriously answering the question regarding why you judge this to be an unethical method of harvest? 

Unsafe = unethical is a load of rubbish.  You work in the literary world - you know full well you cannot redefine terms at will. Unethical in the literary world would be publishing as fact that which you know to be untrue, or presenting the work of another as your own.  Unethical as a hunting guide would be setting your client's on someone else's lease because you know they are out of town and no one checks the property.

Smoking is unsafe.  Is it unethical?  Driving without a seatbelt - unethical?  You do not get to redefine accepted terms to prop up your personal position.  I don't personally care for hunting hogs or lions with dogs.  That doesn't make it unethical, and I will be damned if I will let my personal feelings about the practice lend any credence to the anti-hunters just because I don't care for it.

Thanks much.

[Grant Flaming]

A bit different direction...

I know a number of people have mentioned it, but I absolutely HATE the term "turkey reaping." It sounds like the equivalent of a cheap porno for turkey hunting. I think that kill-oriented language has strong potential to turn non-hunters off in a hurry. Obviously, harvesting a bird is the ultimate goal of our hunting, but the actual kill is just the final chapter of a book that is written all through spring (sorry to get all poetic  ).

It is sad that many people's only impression of hunting (or just killing) comes from what they see on TV. Too many of these shows are all about killing, killing, selling products, and more killing. Here is an idea for a turkey hunting show: turkey hunting for the first 25 minutes and then a kill for the last 5. Not short clips of suicidal birds running to a setup, getting shot, and then a hunter going on and on about how that new load really whacked him at 45-60 yards.

Sorry, I have just had enough of hunting shows lately and all the "reaping, turkey armageddon, long range HV Beard Buster turkey load" crap that goes with them. Rant over. 

[stinkpickle]

Geez people...just chase your bird any legal way you want, shoot it, tag it, and get out of the woods so somebody else can do the same.

[mikejd]

 j

Geez people...just chase your bird any legal way you want, shoot it, tag it, and get out of the woods so somebody else can do the same.

Throw in safely and I think we have it.]

[mookyj]

BC you need to change out your diapers. Reread the blog, I state that it's my opinion, my soapbox and my reasons for it. You don't agree with me and that's fine. I also state that if you do agree with me, then voice your opinions to those that regulate the game laws. You keep harping on proof, I have inquires to proper sources as I don't have access to paid subscription databases or those used by law enforcement. I personally know of stalking and decoy related shootings and I cannot dig up the documents as they don't come up in the search engines despite the search terms I have tried. News reports at most say mistaken for game or two person shooting, no details. I personally know they happened and exist. Sad that you are one of those that need to see bloody pictures, obituaries and accounts of tragedies to believe that it could even be plausible.  Somehow this is all personal to you. I have no delusions that I could possibly save you or know what's best for you.  I made my points, draw from it what you will

Well I know one thing.


I sure am glad we have guys like Mike who will save us from ourselves and govern things the way they see fit. After all they know what's best for all of us based off their opinion that they derived from no basis of fact whatsoever.


Thanks Mike..... 

spaightlabs, "Unsafe = unethical"  In the context I use it applies. Take it out of context all you want. It also covers safety as a part of ethics. Many unethical hunting practices result in unsafe situations. If you do something that jeopardizes the safety of others judging it as unethical is not a stretch

Again tired or repeating a clear message, nitpick all you want, but as I laid out my thoughts, you can agree or disagree. Personally I hope not to read new accounts of hunters being shot in the face, I know too many that have. Having nearly been  shot recently it is an unnerving experience. At the end of the day If anything I say here prevents one occurrence I can live with it

[GobbleNut]

I don't think Mookyj/Mike should be criticized for his opinion on this, nor should those that have expressed an opposing viewpoint.  True, some of the comments on both sides here have digressed to an unsavory level, but the general discussion about the pros and cons of this hunting method, and similar tactics, is good to have.

The safety issue will, over time, sort itself out.  If there are enough people that start using these tactics, we will ultimately find out if there are many turkey hunters out there that do not have the common sense to positively identify their targets before shooting.  I would hope they are few and far between,...and my speculated opinion on this is that if they are willing to shoot at a guy hiding behind a gobbler decoy, they are perfectly capable of doing the same to a guy sitting at the base of a tree making turkey sounds.  ....Which leads us to the point of this paragraph,...and that is that every single one of us, when we go into the woods hunting, must always be vigilant as to what is going on around us.

Personally, when I am turkey hunting, I feel pretty confident that another hunter is not going to be able to sneak up to within shotgun range of me without me being aware of it. ...And if I see someone attempting that, I am sure as heck going to do something to let them know I am there and also protect myself in the process. 

Some will counter that with,.."what about the states that allow rifles for turkey hunting?"  Granted, this adds another element to the discussion, but I would still maintain that anybody that would shoot at a guy with a gobbler decoy in a field is perfectly capable of doing the same to a camouflaged hunter calling somewhere.  Would he be more likely to shoot at the decoy?  Sure, he probably would, but the issue still come back to shooter carelessness, regardless of all else, and I will maintain that there are very few hunters afield nowadays that are so reckless as to do something like that,...unless they are doing it intentionally to begin with,...in which case it really makes no difference what the targeted hunter is doing.

The other real question I have about using tactics that challenge gobbler dominance like "reaping", fanning, and the use of gobbler decoys in any situation, is whether the widespread use of these tactics will negatively affect traditional turkey hunting methods and turkey populations, in general?  At this time, I don't believe these tactics are very widely used, but it cannot be denied that they are extremely effective where they are used. 

Will we ultimately be so successful at killing gobblers with all of these hunting methods in use that we will jeopardize our turkey populations,...and in doing so, jeopardize our entire spring gobbler hunting tradition?  At what point do we become too effective at killing turkeys for their, and our, own good?

[stinkpickle]

...

Will we ultimately be so successful at killing gobblers with all of these hunting methods in use that we will jeopardize our turkey populations,...and in doing so, jeopardize our entire spring gobbler hunting tradition?  At what point do we become too effective at killing turkeys for their, and our, own good?

Nah...state game agencies will just adjust the tag limits and season dates to account for the higher hunter success ratios.

[GobbleNut]

A bit different direction...

I know a number of people have mentioned it, but I absolutely HATE the term "turkey reaping." It sounds like the equivalent of a cheap porno for turkey hunting. I think that kill-oriented language has strong potential to turn non-hunters off in a hurry. Obviously, harvesting a bird is the ultimate goal of our hunting, but the actual kill is just the final chapter of a book that is written all through spring (sorry to get all poetic  ).

It is sad that many people's only impression of hunting (or just killing) comes from what they see on TV. Too many of these shows are all about killing, killing, selling products, and more killing. Here is an idea for a turkey hunting show: turkey hunting for the first 25 minutes and then a kill for the last 5. Not short clips of suicidal birds running to a setup, getting shot, and then a hunter going on and on about how that new load really whacked him at 45-60 yards.

Sorry, I have just had enough of hunting shows lately and all the "reaping, turkey armageddon, long range HV Beard Buster turkey load" crap that goes with them. Rant over. 

Rant on, Grant!  You are absolutely correct in your assessment.  We hunters are our own worst enemies in how we present ourselves to the general public, many of whom do not understand, in the least, why we do what we do...

[n2deer]

While this thread is entertaining its nothing more than a joke.

Another liberal trying to make decision for the people that he sees fit.

Had a bad experience and now needs to stand up on his blogbox so all can tell all the best thing to do to fix the problem.