Did I explain this right? I belong to a group on Facebook that does lots of sportsman related giveaways, they were asking for ideas for prizes and I suggested Apex TSS and the gentleman asked me to explain TSS I am not sure if I got everything right, please let me know if I made any mistakes. I will not be able to reply for a bit, I have to leave as soon as I post this but will see replies later in the morning. Thanks for the help.
Apex is Tungsten Steel Shot, it is normally used in turkey hunting and I think maybe duck and goose hunting as well but am not honestly sure of that. I would like to see it offered in number 8 shot which is legal in my state though in all honesty most people I know use it in number 9 shot in both 12 and 20 gauges. I think it is also used in .410 and 16 gauges as well in number 9 shot. Perhaps if you choose to offer in a gift certificate could be offered to Apex (By far the highest rated company for it) Benefits to TSS are much denser patterns and better knockdown power with a lighter load due to the density of the Tungsten over lead. You can get many more pellets into a shell using smaller pellets than would traditionally be used and they will have equal or from all I have read more killing power (By this I mean kinetic energy, imagine it as using a arrow with 125 grain broadhead vs 75 grain broadhead, it will have more pushing power than the lighter broadhead) Another advantage it has is extended range over traditional range though quite frankly I do not advocate taking more than a 40 yard shot, but that is a personal choice. Also much tighter grouping due to the larger amount of shot in each shell. Here is a article on it and I will also try to find a video and attach it here as well as a comment to my comment. https://www.splitreed.com/all-stories/apex-ammo-turkey
Well said..
TSS stands for TUNGSTEN SUPER SHOT. It has a density of 18 grams per cubic centimeter, where lead is 11.3 grams per cubic centimeter.
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About like every written description I've read about TSS a lot of misinformation.
Comparing a 75 grain broadhead to a 125 grain implying the TSS is the 125 is wrong. Maybe if you said three 25 grain broadheads compared to one 75 grain with the 75 being lead, but who shoots three arrows at a time. The analogy doesn't make sense.
Quote from: Tom007 on June 26, 2020, 06:01:36 AM
Well said..
Thank you.
Quote from: turkeymanjim on June 26, 2020, 07:04:36 AM
TSS stands for TUNGSTEN SUPER SHOT. It has a density of 18 grams per cubic centimeter, where lead is 11.3 grams per cubic centimeter.
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I did wonder about that, thank you for the correction.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 26, 2020, 12:00:36 PM
About like every written description I've read about TSS a lot of misinformation.
Comparing a 75 grain broadhead to a 125 grain implying the TSS is the 125 is wrong. Maybe if you said three 25 grain broadheads compared to one 75 grain with the 75 being lead, but who shoots three arrows at a time. The analogy doesn't make sense.
It was meant to compare the weight and density of the TSS vs Lead
TSS is offered in #8 shot at APEX.
https://apexmunition.com/collections/turkey-tss/st-3-12-gauge-3-2oz-qty-5-per-box/
20ga 3? 1-5/8oz
$41.49
Shot Size
8
Clear
Available In Stock
20ga 3" 1-5/8oz quantity
12ga 3? 2oz
$48.49
Shot Size
8
Clear
Available In Stock
Quote from: Yelper on June 26, 2020, 12:47:40 PM
TSS is offered in #8 shot at APEX.
https://apexmunition.com/collections/turkey-tss/st-3-12-gauge-3-2oz-qty-5-per-box/
20ga 3? 1-5/8oz
$41.49
Shot Size
8
Clear
Available In Stock
20ga 3" 1-5/8oz quantity
12ga 3? 2oz
$48.49
Shot Size
8
Clear
Available In Stock
Thanks bud.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on June 26, 2020, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Tom007 on June 26, 2020, 06:01:36 AM
Quote from: turkeymanjim on June 26, 2020, 07:04:36 AM
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Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 26, 2020, 12:00:36 PM
About like every written description I've read about TSS a lot of misinformation.
Comparing a 75 grain broadhead to a 125 grain implying the TSS is the 125 is wrong. Maybe if you said three 25 grain broadheads compared to one 75 grain with the 75 being lead, but who shoots three arrows at a time. The analogy doesn't make sense.
It was meant to compare the weight and density of the TSS vs Lead
I understand what comparison you were trying to make but it is wrong. You asked if you got it right....you did not. TSS is not heavier than lead when comparing the larger lead to smaller TSS ie a TSS #7,8,or 9 is nowhere near as heavy as a lead # 5 or 6
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 26, 2020, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on June 26, 2020, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Tom007 on June 26, 2020, 06:01:36 AM
Quote from: turkeymanjim on June 26, 2020, 07:04:36 AM
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 26, 2020, 12:00:36 PM
About like every written description I've read about TSS a lot of misinformation.
Comparing a 75 grain broadhead to a 125 grain implying the TSS is the 125 is wrong. Maybe if you said three 25 grain broadheads compared to one 75 grain with the 75 being lead, but who shoots three arrows at a time. The analogy doesn't make sense.
It was meant to compare the weight and density of the TSS vs Lead
I understand what comparison you were trying to make but it is wrong. You asked if you got it right....you did not. TSS is not heavier than lead.
Okay, now I understand what you were trying to say, thank you very much for the correction, I did not understand what you were trying to say in your first reply. Remember, I am always willing to learn something new.
TSS is denser than lead. A similar size pellet (volume) of TSS will weigh more (be heavier) than a similar size pellet of lead. But no one uses it like that. They use smaller shot which has equivalent retention of energy of larger lead pellet due to it's higher density. Principles of both Newton's First and Second Laws of motion.
Quote from: g8rvet on June 26, 2020, 08:29:30 PM
TSS is denser than lead. A similar size pellet (volume) of TSS will weigh more (be heavier) than a similar size pellet of lead. But no one uses it like that. They use smaller shot which has equivalent retention of energy of larger lead pellet due to it's higher density. Principles of both Newton's First and Second Laws of motion.
Sounds like I was trying to explain it correctly and maybe used some terms incorrectly or just did not explain it properly. Thank you very much for the reply.
Quote from: g8rvet on June 26, 2020, 08:29:30 PM
TSS is denser than lead. A similar size pellet (volume) of TSS will weigh more (be heavier) than a similar size pellet of lead. But no one uses it like that. They use smaller shot which has equivalent retention of energy of larger lead pellet due to it's higher density. Principles of both Newton's First and Second Laws of motion.
Lol. Most if not all TSS shot shells are actually lower velocity than most lead or heavy shot loads. A lighter much lighter like a third of the weight #9 going slower than a much heavier Lead or heavy #5 has neither more speed or weight and so does not have more energy. Yes 3 times more TSS will have more hits but each individual shot of #9 does not have more energy. Maybe the shot being smaller helps with wind drag and penetration maybe not. At hunting distances I've never had trouble with any shot penetrating a bird.
I cannot understand why this is so widely misunderstood. Common sense alone should tell you if a #9 TSS was as heavy as lead and also had 3 times more bbs per shot shell then the shot would weigh 3 times as much. You think you need a recoil pad on your 20 gauge try shooting a 6oz shot shell lol.
Most if not all TSS does not travel more slowly than larger lead, thinking TSS is slower is silly. For example, my 20 gauge TSS load is chrono'd at 1,200 fps, while my 12 gauge Hevi 7s are 1,050 fps so TSS is 10% faster than stock Hevi loads. That 10% velocity increase is important.
Velocity times mass produces momentum. Higher velocity, higher mass, greater momentum. Lower velocity, and/or lower mass, then the result is less momentum. That's physics. So retained momentum downrange is where TSS trumps lead and Hevi, and why larger TSS, like #4, is scary lethal way, way down there.
This is my understanding of the phenomenon of TSS. Let's take 2 oz. of #5 lead and 2 oz. of #9 TSS exiting a barrel both travelling at say, for example, 1,150 fps.
At 40 yards, down range momentum is the key. #5 lead more quickly sheds velocity due to it larger size from increased drag and lower mass resulting in less retained energy down range. Conversely #9 TSS suffers significant less drag due to its smaller size, and retains more energy because of its greater mass. Mass times velocity equals momentum. Higher mass with greater retained velocity equals more momentum. Ballistic gel tests validate this.
The #9 also wins on penetration efficiency, as the smaller size creates less friction loss increasing the pellet's ability to penetrate and break bone better than the larger #5. The #5 lead pellet is larger and incurs higher friction loss, plus lead is softer deforming much more easily upon impact - that increasing deformation further exacerbates energy dissipation because increased surface area produces reduced velocity, thereby reducing momentum and ultimately reducing depth of penetration. TSS is harder and will not deform, keeping its friction loss minimized and increasing penetration.
In the end these same size loads, 2 oz of #5 lead and 2 oz. #9 TSS, both weigh exactly 2 ounces. Both are exiting the barrel in the example at the same velocity of 1,150 fps. But the larger lead load incurs more drag, shedding velocity more quickly, and having less mass suffers momentum losses more quickly than the smaller more dense TSS.
What am I missing? Will 2 oz. of #5 lead work at 40 yards? Yep and with the right choke you can get 100+ in a 10" circle. Will 2 oz. of #9 TSS work at 40 yards? Yep, even better because in a smaller 20 gauge the 10" pattern count will be three to four times that of the #5 lead.
Quote from: paboxcall on June 27, 2020, 12:29:34 PM
Most if not all TSS does not travel more slowly than larger lead, thinking TSS is slower is silly. For example, my 20 gauge TSS load is chrono'd at 1,200 fps, while my 12 gauge Hevi 7s are 1,050 fps so TSS is 10% faster than stock Hevi loads. That 10% velocity increase is important.
Velocity times mass produces momentum. Higher velocity, higher mass, greater momentum. Lower velocity, and/or lower mass, then the result is less momentum. That's physics. So retained momentum downrange is where TSS trumps lead and Hevi, and why larger TSS, like #4, is scary lethal way, way down there.
This is my understanding of the phenomenon of TSS. Let's take 2 oz. of #5 lead and 2 oz. of #9 TSS exiting a barrel both travelling at say, for example, 1,150 fps.
At 40 yards, down range momentum is the key. #5 lead more quickly sheds velocity due to it larger size from increased drag and lower mass resulting in less retained energy down range. Conversely #9 TSS suffers significant less drag due to its smaller size, and retains more energy because of its greater mass. Mass times velocity equals momentum. Higher mass with greater retained velocity equals more momentum. Ballistic gel tests validate this.
The #9 also wins on penetration efficiency, as the smaller size creates less friction loss increasing the pellet's ability to penetrate and break bone better than the larger #5. The #5 lead pellet is larger and incurs higher friction loss, plus lead is softer deforming much more easily upon impact - that increasing deformation further exacerbates energy dissipation because increased surface area produces reduced velocity, thereby reducing momentum and ultimately reducing depth of penetration. TSS is harder and will not deform, keeping its friction loss minimized and increasing penetration.
In the end these same size loads, 2 oz of #5 lead and 2 oz. #9 TSS, both weigh exactly 2 ounces. Both are exiting the barrel in the example at the same velocity of 1,150 fps. But the larger lead load incurs more drag, shedding velocity more quickly, and having less mass suffers momentum losses more quickly than the smaller more dense TSS.
What am I missing? Will 2 oz. of #5 lead work at 40 yards? Yep and with the right choke you can get 100+ in a 10" circle. Will 2 oz. of #9 TSS work at 40 yards? Yep, even better because in a smaller 20 gauge the 10" pattern count will be three to four times that of the #5 lead.
Very well explained and easy to understand. Thank you very much.
Quote from: paboxcall on June 27, 2020, 12:29:34 PM
Most if not all TSS does not travel more slowly than larger lead, thinking TSS is slower is silly. For example, my 20 gauge TSS load is chrono'd at 1,200 fps, while my 12 gauge Hevi 7s are 1,050 fps so TSS is 10% faster than stock Hevi loads. That 10% velocity increase is important.
Velocity times mass produces momentum. Higher velocity, higher mass, greater momentum. Lower velocity, and/or lower mass, then the result is less momentum. That's physics. So retained momentum downrange is where TSS trumps lead and Hevi, and why larger TSS, like #4, is scary lethal way, way down there.
This is my understanding of the phenomenon of TSS. Let's take 2 oz. of #5 lead and 2 oz. of #9 TSS exiting a barrel both travelling at say, for example, 1,150 fps.
At 40 yards, down range momentum is the key. #5 lead more quickly sheds velocity due to it larger size from increased drag and lower mass resulting in less retained energy down range. Conversely #9 TSS suffers significant less drag due to its smaller size, and retains more energy because of its greater mass. Mass times velocity equals momentum. Higher mass with greater retained velocity equals more momentum. Ballistic gel tests validate this.
The #9 also wins on penetration efficiency, as the smaller size creates less friction loss increasing the pellet's ability to penetrate and break bone better than the larger #5. The #5 lead pellet is larger and incurs higher friction loss, plus lead is softer deforming much more easily upon impact - that increasing deformation further exacerbates energy dissipation because increased surface area produces reduced velocity, thereby reducing momentum and ultimately reducing depth of penetration. TSS is harder and will not deform, keeping its friction loss minimized and increasing penetration.
In the end these same size loads, 2 oz of #5 lead and 2 oz. #9 TSS, both weigh exactly 2 ounces. Both are exiting the barrel in the example at the same velocity of 1,150 fps. But the larger lead load incurs more drag, shedding velocity more quickly, and having less mass suffers momentum losses more quickly than the smaller more dense TSS.
What am I missing? Will 2 oz. of #5 lead work at 40 yards? Yep and with the right choke you can get 100+ in a 10" circle. Will 2 oz. of #9 TSS work at 40 yards? Yep, even better because in a smaller 20 gauge the 10" pattern count will be three to four times that of the #5 lead.
I'm saying most of the lead or heavy loads I've seen the TSS in the same gauge is slower.
What lead loads are you shooting at 1150 or less? Both Apex and Nitros have a lower velocity than the lead # 5s I shoot at 1300 FPS. with Apex and Nitros at most 1250 but the majority around 1150 especially in the sub gauges. So again a single #5 at 1300fps has more energy than a #9 at 1150-1200 and even if they both were at 1300 the 5 still has more energy. If you find the slowest lead or heavy shot load and the fastest TSS load you'd barely be even on energy per individual shot. The only fair comparison would be same velocity TSS vs lead or heavy then tell me which has more energy?
I've seen about a half dozen turkeys shot with TSS #8 and 9s I didn't see any of the bone breaking devastation. At ranges the HVY shot would have shredded the head the TSS did no visible damage it killed them alright but not any better than regular old lead.
What's silly is finding the slowest lead loads to make a comparison. Here's Nitros velocities for TSS and HVY the HVY loads are faster or at most even with TSS( Nitros velocity is faster than Apex in same loads per each website).TSS does not have more energy with the smaller lighter TSS in equal velocity and especially if slower. The lead loads I shoot are faster and heavier per individual shot. Heavier by almost 3X and faster by 50-100fps and more energy period. That's 12 vs 12 gauge. The 20 is better than the 12 only if your talking holes in paper. If you compare the same velocity lead ,HVY ,TSS Turkey load the heavier shot will have more energy period. The 12 to 20 comparison the 12 will be 100 or so FPS faster shooting heavier individual shot
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200627/5c6be3509ce3c10a019842b25c218b96.jpg)
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The other picture is too small to see(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200627/2d97b74bf639023f3e2e500654c1655b.jpg)
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Whatever LA, you're simply not considering every variable, but posting pics of faster lead loads proves the physics point. Velocity is just one variable. So is density. Its physics. TSS can be slower because TSS's higher density helps maintain downrange energy. That's physics. Velocity times density equals momentum. That's physics. Its momentum you need to care about not just velocity. You are discounting what happens at 20, 30 and then 40 yards in your thinking from gravity, drag, etc.
To best understand the concept, and easier for the sake of the argument, is to make every variable equal, so to the point earlier let's use 2 ounces of #5 lead and 2 ounces of #9 TSS. Both loads weigh 2 ounces. They both exit the barrel traveling at the same speed at the muzzle 1,150 fps in the example. But very quickly the laws of physics take over - that's where things change. Rated muzzle velocity is just that, muzzle velocity. Sure, lead differences can be compensated by speed, but given all things equal, TSS is superior.
Speed is only one factor, and certainly not the only factor because density is just as equally important in the equation. This is also true comparing lead to steel. How do we compensate with less dense steel shot compared to lead? Add more velocity - that is the only way to make steel shot as lethal (at least theoretically) as a lead replacement.
Velocity and density are equally important because after the load leaves the muzzle, then individual pellet size becomes the major, inescapable determining factor - bigger pellets are more susceptible to forces of gravity, drag, compression, and ultimately friction loss. That is where TSS in its smaller diameter, hardness, and higher density wins.
If you want to go and add velocity to make lead better stand out, then great, mission accomplished. You can do that. Making lead faster in fact satisfies physics by compensating for it's less superiority in density, just like steel shot vs. lead. That added lead velocity helps keep downrange energy or momentum to catch back up with TSS because lead is less dense and must have larger pellets - it is why we don't hunt turkeys with #8 or #9 lead loads at 40 yards.
Go and theoretically make #5 or #6 lead 1,500 fps, and it will really wallop the target. But I'm not pulling that trigger. In lead you need larger pellet sizes and faster speeds to compensate for its lack in density compared to TSS. That's just physics.
In the end, lead velocity must be boosted and its individual pellet size must be increased to maximize downrange lethality. Steel is the same way. And for the average velocities in factory turkey loads out to 40 yards, TSS's physical properties makes it superior for minimizing drag, friction, which helps maintain speed over longer ranges and maximizes momentum. Its just physics. Disbelieve physics if you want by posting muzzle velocities, I don't care.
Whatever you want to believe.
Couple things to consider.
Momentum is mass x velocity not density they are not the same thing.
Your analogy about steel vs lead does not help your case. The lighter steel has to be faster than the lead to have a chance at being as lethal. Steel shot is about 1/3 lighter than lead shot of the same size. Anyone that has ever used both on ducks knows the difference in a heavier individual shot.
Using the often quoted TSS #9 has the same energy as a lead #5 you have the same lead vs steel problem. At the SAME velocity the #9 does not have more energy not at the muzzle not at 40 yards. What happens in jello at 100 yards makes no difference to me and shouldn't to anybody that calls themselves a turkey hunter.
I posted the lead loads I use also Nitros TSS and HVY for comparison. Me using a high velocity lead load is about the same as you using the lowest lead load you can find to compare.
Simple really comparing equal velocity a TSS 9 does not have more energy than a lead5 and surely not a HVY 5. If you can read ,clearly the Nitro loads ( and Nitro having higher velocities than most factory loads) are all faster or at most equal TSS vs HVY all of which are slower than the factory load I use in lead. If you start comparing factory TSS Federal for example the difference is even more pronounced.
You can compare opinions or factual numbers your choice
Density is the product of its mass and its volume. And that's what I said - to compensate for less mass, steel shot must be both larger and faster than lead, the only way to compensate for its inferiority compared to lead. And so goes lead, which must also be larger and faster to compensate for its physical inferiority to TSS.
What you discount, or just flat ignore, is larger shot size makes both steel and lead more susceptible to drag and gravity. That's a fact. So here is the thing: it is way less important how fast the load starts compared to how fast they arrive. That's the focus - was velocity preserved to maximize energy? Physics tells the story.
I'd rather shoot a smaller pellet with more mass than a larger pellet with less mass, or a larger pellet to achieve equivalency, simply to preserve momentum. Larger surface areas of larger pellets shed velocity faster. That's physics. Regardless I'm moving on, much like most people you interact with here.
You did make me chuckle admitting you disregard ballistic gel because it conflicts with your assertion - and no one said anything about 100 yards. Physics makes #9 TSS lethal at 40 yards, while physics prohibits its lead #9 sized equivalent from achieving the same. And lastly physics is why #9 TSS approaches and often exceeds terminal downrange performance of larger sized lead projectiles launched and sent downrange less efficiently. Appreciated the fun discussion though.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 27, 2020, 04:39:13 PM
Whatever you want to believe.
Couple things to consider.
Momentum is mass x velocity not density they are not the same thing.
Your analogy about steel vs lead does not help your case. The lighter steel has to be faster than the lead to have a chance at being as lethal. Steel shot is about 1/3 lighter than lead shot of the same size. Anyone that has ever used both on ducks knows the difference in a heavier individual shot.
Using the often quoted TSS #9 has the same energy as a lead #5 you have the same lead vs steel problem. At the SAME velocity the #9 does not have more energy not at the muzzle not at 40 yards. What happens in jello at 100 yards makes no difference to me and shouldn't to anybody that calls themselves a turkey hunter.
I posted the lead loads I use also Nitros TSS and HVY for comparison. Me using a high velocity lead load is about the same as you using the lowest lead load you can find to compare.
Simple really comparing equal velocity a TSS 9 does not have more energy than a lead5 and surely not a HVY 5. If you can read ,clearly the Nitro loads ( and Nitro having higher velocities than most factory loads) are all faster or at most equal TSS vs HVY all of which are slower than the factory load I use in lead. If you start comparing factory TSS Federal for example the difference is even more pronounced.
You can compare opinions or factual numbers your choice
Quote from: paboxcall on June 27, 2020, 04:05:33 PM
Velocity times density equals momentum. That's physics.
No that's what you said and that's not physics.
You are confused I think about the difference between mass and density they are not interchangeable.
In your last post you say a smaller pellet with more mass than a larger pellet with less mass? Using the TSS 9 vs lead 5 again the 5 has more mass ,yes the smaller TSS 9 is denser but that's not the same thing.
I don't have anything specifically against TSS just don't understand why people continue to exaggerate it's weight and energy. If it really is killing turkeys at 50-80 yards why the need to exaggerate?
For the last time simply. A heavier 2x heavier lead or heavy # 5 has more energy than a TSS #9 that's with the exact same velocity. I've shown you the only way you should be shooting a lower velocity lead or heavy shot load is because you specifically looked for one to buy. Most lead or HVY loads will be faster some a lot faster. So you have a heavier individual pellet going faster or the same velocity than TSS. Physics says that heavier pellet has more energy. Wind drag, pellet deformation gravity or hardness of tss pellets will not make up the difference at 50 yards or less. You had your comparison backwards it's the TSS that's playing catch up not the lead or heavy loads.
There's really no discussion of you can't understand the facts. If you want to believe your 20 or 28 or .410 has more energy than a faster heavier shot thats fine but it ain't physics and it ain't real.
Fun discussion, but you're backwards. You need to go bigger to compensate, like a 10 or 12 gauge, 3" or 3.5" magnum load of 2 ounces or more of bigger sized lead to achieve the same pattern density achieved by a 20 gauge, 2.75" with 1 3/8th ounce of TSS. Fact. To break 300 in 10" at 40 yards, you need a lot of space for larger sized lead.
Saying TSS is compensating with smaller gauge barrels defies logic. The fact is smaller tungsten equals or exceeds the performance of its significantly larger lead counterparts. That's physics. Whether to your point #9 TSS is the equivalent of #5 lead or #6 lead or whatever is irrelevant. Its at least as good as either.
Why did the 3.5" 12 gauge hit the market? Steel shot. Needed larger payload of bigger pellets at a faster velocity to achieve what lead was doing more efficiently in a smaller payload. Now we're going the other way for turkeys - with TSS, more efficient, smaller payload. If TSS was suddenly banned, guess what, we'd all go back to our old Mossberg 835 and 10 gauge shoulder-mounted Howitzers launching bruising payloads of larger sized lead. No one is shooting big lead from 410s or 28 gauge guns. That's because of physics.
Never said anyone needs TSS. Matter of fact in my first post said at 40 yards #5 lead gets it done. #5 lead was my choice for many years. But then I went ahead and said TSS gives the shooter significantly higher pellet count per ounce, plus more mass, and you got a blistering, denser pattern at 40 yards compared to #5s. Like three or four times better.
All good. Each their own. I don't own shares in TSS. Keep shooting lead that's great. I'll carry a sub-gauge with TSS and that's great. If something happens to my little 20, I'll go back to my backup single shot with 3" Hevi #7s. Whatever the choice, same end result.
Quote from: paboxcall on June 27, 2020, 05:51:21 PM
You need to go bigger to compensate
Saying TSS is compensating with smaller gauge barrels defies logic. The fact is smaller tungsten equals or exceeds the performance of its significantly larger lead counterparts. That's physics. Whether to your point #9 TSS is the equivalent of #5 lead or #6 lead or whatever is irrelevant. Its at least as good as either
Compensate for what? Lead or heavy is already faster and heavier. I never said anything about smaller gauge barrels compensation? Now you bring up pattern density that is a whole different discussion. Yes TSS will leave more holes on a piece of paper but each one of those tiny holes was made by a pellet half as heavy as a lead or HVY 5 going slower. The discussion is not about which puts more holes in paper or if the same Gobbler was shot at 40 yards with lead or TSS which would be deader. The point I'm making it seems like most people are just repeating the same WRONG information about the weight and energy of TSS vs lead or heavy shot. You keep bringing up steel shot. In your scenario steel would be the TSS it's lighter and going slower so it has less energy, that's why steel shot tried to up the velocity. If you get some #6 TSS and load it to 1300 FPS then you would have a superior load but at the cost of the pattern density so highly praised.
Saying TSS equals or exceeds the performance of lead or heavy shot is another false statement and physics the real kind proves it. And then you say it's irrelevant? Don't really know what else to say about that lol
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 27, 2020, 06:35:56 PM
but each one of those tiny holes was made by a pellet half as heavy as a lead or HVY 5 going slower.
:TooFunny: :TooFunny:
One other thing to throw into the equation, which I don't even grasp but trust the source it came from I believe "allaboutshooting", the faster a load starts off somehow equates to it slowing down faster too.
Example being a load that starts off at the muzzle 200fps faster may not be going 200fps faster at 40yds. I think the speed gap closes as distance is passed.
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I doubt seriously that a turkey load starting at 100 FPS faster will be caught by or surpassed in velocity over 120 feet. Even if it did ....IF you still have an individual pellet or shot that is 1/2 or more the weight of lead or HVY shot. Even if they started at the same velocity you STILL have the weight discrepancy and the TSS even IF it gained speed? After traveling 40 yards wouldn't have increased the speed enough to make up the difference in weight.
If one calls one close enough, dove loads will do the trick.
I have shot lead , copper plated , Heavy shot and you name it in turkey loads and there is no doubt #9 Tss is awesome. You can spit out all the physics and all the equations you want but I like field results better than numbers on paper. If you are a TSS hater , have at it. Does not bother or influence me in anyway. You love lead , stick to lead but dont think for a single minute that lead flat outperforms TSS or even its equal because its not. Dead is dead as they say. I could kill whitetails all day long with my 243 but I enjoy doing it wit my 338 Win mag.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on June 27, 2020, 08:15:10 PM
dint think for a single minute that lead flat outperforms TSS or even its equal because its not.
lead or HVY in the loads I shoot are both faster and heavier that's a fact. Other than pattern density I see no performance edge. Opinions are one thing but the facts are undeniable. I don't shoot past 40 yards and I don't see how twice as many smaller bbs would kill them deader. And non of this explains why so many people cannot understand the difference between weight and mass, energy and momentum. Even with the size and weight of every shot shell bb made available at the touch of a button some still cannot comprehend a TSS 9 does not weigh as much or even close to a lead or heavy 6, or 5. That's not an opinion
For Everyone that touts the light weight of there sub gauge to a 12. What makes it lighter is the sub gauge less dense or does it have less mass lol.
# 5 lead 2.60 grains per pellet
1300 FPS
9.75 ft lbs of kinetic energy
# 5 Heavy shot 2.74 grains per pellet
1200 FPS
8.75 lbs of kinetic energy
#9 TSS 1.2 grains per pellet
1200 FPS
3.83 ft lbs kinetic energy
That's physics
I was a #4 lead shooter and still do in certain guns.
I was a very hard sell to try the Fed HVWT #7s, finally started to hunt them and from my experience they out perform lead #4 for pure killing performance. and HVWT #6's are just a hammer.
started hunting TSS #9s several seasons ago and in my experience with them they kill even better than the Fed. HVWT #7's and also lead #4's.
have also hunted with TSS #8 for several seasons and this spring hunted with TSS#7 for the last part of this season, both of them are flat out killers.
from practical hunting experience you would not have to load up TSS #6's at 1300fps to get a superior load. TSS #9's at 1150fps will do that.
the 10" is useful for pattern comparison, ballistic jell is useful for a starting point for penetration comparison.
From my experience with TSS #9's (and the other sizes) it performs better on game than it does in ballistic jell.
To be clear I don't care if you shoot lead. Don't care if your too cheap, you're stocked for years with lead loads, or whatever. Just don't tout falsehoods about lead being ballistically superior to TSS because its "faster and heavier" using single data points, because that is as silly as saying steel is better than lead.
And purposely omitting real world factors like time, distance, gravity, and drag? Really helpful. So, to your recent cherry picked data point, muzzle velocity, that is information one should only use for shooting turkeys point blank range. Of course that comes with the added plus of no stray shot in the breast meat and pre-cooking from powder burns, so good on you.
Muzzle velocity is just the beginning of the equation. What happens after the equal sign (=) in that equation - retained energy at 40 yards, not muzzle energy at zero yards - is what actually matters. That TSS ballistic gel that you refused to consider or acknowledge, because you didn't want to defend downrange reality, you didn't want to talk about gel tests "at 100 yards" because I guess you've seen it, couldn't explain it staring at simple muzzle velocity numbers, so let's just ignore it.
Here is the inescapable reality:
Bigger is not always better, because a larger object in flight incurs more drag from the air. That is a fact. Bigger pellets with greater surface area slow more quickly, and bigger pellets slowing quickly due to air resistance lose energy faster over time and distance. Only way to overcome this is go faster. But going faster has trade offs and limits, so smaller pellets with more mass are significantly less susceptible to drag over time and distance making them preferable.
Heavier - you're word, not mine - is not better because "heavier" is more influenced by gravity over time and distance than a smaller object. Again, fact. At the muzzle, doesn't matter, down range it matters a lot, try throwing a volley ball and a bowling ball. The "heavier" lead pellet will slow more quickly over time and distance, dissipating forward kinetic energy trying to overcome the effect of gravity compared to its smaller more dense counterpart. Only way to overcome this is go faster, but faster has trade offs and limits, especially on patterning.
As mentioned earlier in a post, really, really fast is not always better because the faster an object is launched the more quickly it slows over time and distance. Yet again, physics. That is why 1,500 fps steel shot really provides no significant net benefit over slower steel shot because of steel's lack of mass compared to lead.
What happens at the muzzle is just one puzzle piece, though important - its the energy imparted on the object to begin its flight. What actually happens both in flight and at the target at 40 yards down range factoring - not omitting as you do - air resistance and gravity is way more important than initial muzzle velocity, and what all ethical hunters should consider.
Will #5 lead do the job at 40 yards? Yep, but it must be both bigger and heavier to preserve energy and still overcome challenging losses from gravity and drag to get the same job done as smaller TSS.
What would one choose for hunting coyotes at longer distances? #4 lead or #4 TSS? Either or, but TSS is obviously far more superior retaining energy further down range than its lead counterpart of the same size, even with slightly dissimilar muzzle velocities.
What should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards? #9 lead or #9 TSS? Obviously #9 lead is inferior and #9 TSS is far superior retaining energy down range because of its greater mass and hardness.
Now knowing #9 lead is inferior to #9 TSS because of mass, what should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards, a large payload of #5 lead or smaller payload of #9 TSS? Either or will do the job, but - big but here - because of physics lead must be bigger to get the same job done and be subjected to the laws of physics in route. Therefore TSS is more efficient than lead of equivalent, or even larger size, yet the end result is the same at 40 yards with #5 lead and #9 TSS. One punched tag.
But to my very first point many circular post responses ago...to believe single data points, like initial muzzle velocity printed on a cardboard box, tells you nothing about what's happening at 40 yards. One must consider time, distance, gravity and drag.
So, if you won't actually consider the whole story, and instead respond with snippets and pictures of individual puzzle pieces because at face value it seemingly makes some obtuse and incomplete point, well there really is no point continually trying to pop the bubble you obviously choose to live in. Really, go read the articles and research on Apex or other manufacturers, and watch load testing on youtube, do research and discover all the facts important to making a fully informed decision instead of wrongly stating things like 'faster, heavier lead' is superior to smaller TSS. It just isn't.
So again, if you need to have the last word, even when its not factual, have it. All good, I'm finished providing the rest of the story from what I learned as I went from lead to Hevi to TSS. Got better things to do than go circles over piecemeal, single data point, incomplete, nonsensical responses.
Quote from: paboxcall on June 28, 2020, 12:13:15 PM
To be clear I don't care if you shoot lead. Don't care if your too cheap, you're stocked for years with lead loads, or whatever. Just don't tout falsehoods about lead being ballistically superior to TSS because its "faster and heavier" using single data points, because that is as silly as saying steel is better than lead.
And purposely omitting real world factors like time, distance, gravity, and drag? Really helpful. So, to your recent cherry picked data point, muzzle velocity, that is information one should only use for shooting turkeys point blank range. Of course that comes with the added plus of no stray shot in the breast meat and pre-cooking from powder burns, so good on you.
Muzzle velocity is just the beginning of the equation. What happens after the equal sign (=) in that equation - retained energy at 40 yards, not muzzle energy at zero yards - is what actually matters. That TSS ballistic gel that you refused to consider or acknowledge, because you didn't want to defend downrange reality, you didn't want to talk about gel tests "at 100 yards" because I guess you've seen it, couldn't explain it staring at simple muzzle velocity numbers, so let's just ignore it.
Here is the inescapable reality:
Bigger is not always better, because a larger object in flight incurs more drag from the air. That is a fact. Bigger pellets with greater surface area slow more quickly, and bigger pellets slowing quickly due to air resistance lose energy faster over time and distance. Only way to overcome this is go faster. But going faster has trade offs and limits, so smaller pellets with more mass are significantly less susceptible to drag over time and distance making them preferable.
Heavier - you're word, not mine - is not better because "heavier" is more influenced by gravity over time and distance than a smaller object. Again, fact. At the muzzle, doesn't matter, down range it matters a lot, try throwing a volley ball and a bowling ball. The "heavier" lead pellet will slow more quickly over time and distance, dissipating forward kinetic energy trying to overcome the effect of gravity compared to its smaller more dense counterpart. Only way to overcome this is go faster, but faster has trade offs and limits, especially on patterning.
As mentioned earlier in a post, really, really fast is not always better because the faster an object is launched the more quickly it slows over time and distance. Yet again, physics. That is why 1,500 fps steel shot really provides no significant net benefit over slower steel shot because of steel's lack of mass compared to lead.
What happens at the muzzle is just one puzzle piece, though important - its the energy imparted on the object to begin its flight. What actually happens both in flight and at the target at 40 yards down range factoring - not omitting as you do - air resistance and gravity is way more important than initial muzzle velocity, and what all ethical hunters should consider.
Will #5 lead do the job at 40 yards? Yep, but it must be both bigger and heavier to preserve energy and still overcome challenging losses from gravity and drag to get the same job done as smaller TSS.
What would one choose for hunting coyotes at longer distances? #4 lead or #4 TSS? Either or, but TSS is obviously far more superior retaining energy further down range than its lead counterpart of the same size, even with slightly dissimilar muzzle velocities.
What should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards? #9 lead or #9 TSS? Obviously #9 lead is inferior and #9 TSS is far superior retaining energy down range because of its greater mass and hardness.
Now knowing #9 lead is inferior to #9 TSS because of mass, what should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards, a large payload of #5 lead or smaller payload of #9 TSS? Either or will do the job, but - big but here - because of physics lead must be bigger to get the same job done and be subjected to the laws of physics in route. Therefore TSS is more efficient than lead of equivalent, or even larger size, yet the end result is the same at 40 yards with #5 lead and #9 TSS. One punched tag.
But to my very first point many circular post responses ago...to believe single data points, like initial muzzle velocity printed on a cardboard box, tells you nothing about what's happening at 40 yards. One must consider time, distance, gravity and drag.
So, if you won't actually consider the whole story, and instead respond with snippets and pictures of individual puzzle pieces because at face value it seemingly makes some obtuse and incomplete point, well there really is no point continually trying to pop the bubble you obviously choose to live in. Really, go read the articles and research on Apex or other manufacturers, and watch load testing on youtube, do research and discover all the facts important to making a fully informed decision instead of wrongly stating things like 'faster, heavier lead' is superior to smaller TSS. It just isn't.
So again, if you need to have the last word, even when its not factual, have it. All good, I'm finished providing the rest of the story from what I learned as I went from lead to Hevi to TSS. Got better things to do than go circles over piecemeal, single data point, incomplete, nonsensical responses.
Very good post on TSS, Paboxcall has about nailed it.
Here would be my honest, no BS opinion on the effectiveness of TSS from an old horse shoer's perspective. I hunt with an old 1700's smoothbore up thru to a recently purchased CZ. Lead thru TSS.
As an example, if for whatever reason I had not eaten in 2 days and there was nothing to eat for 2 more days
and you gave me a choice of a 20ga and one TSS shotshell of #9 or #8. Or a 3" 12ga and one shell of any load of lead #6, 5 or #4 shot. I would with total confidence take the 20ga and the TSS shell and go get something to eat.
Quote from: crow on June 28, 2020, 01:28:39 PM
Very good post on TSS, Paboxcall has about nailed it.
Here would be my honest, no BS opinion on the effectiveness of TSS from an old horse shoer's perspective. I hunt with an old 1700's smoothbore up thru to a recently purchased CZ. Lead thru TSS.
As an example, if for whatever reason I had not eaten in 2 days and there was nothing to eat for 2 more days
and you gave me a choice of a 20ga and one TSS shotshell of #9 or #8. Or a 3" 12ga and one shell of any load of lead #6, 5 or #4 shot. I would with total confidence take the 20ga and the TSS shell and go get something to eat.
:agreed:
All I'm saying is there is a reason people hunt with #4, #5, and #6 lead, but not #7, #8 or #9 lead. Or they hunt with #6 and #7 Hevi, or instead hunt #7.5, #8, #9, #9.5 and #10 TSS. Mass. Big to small, and all but small lead surpass minimum downrange energy benchmarks which is the point.
And if I'm going to get something to eat, I'll take the TSS as well. For certain I'm putting over 300+ #9 TSS vs. 100+ #5 lead in a 10" circle with a one shot opportunity.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 09:17:17 AM
# 5 lead 2.60 grains per pellet
1300 FPS
9.75 ft lbs of kinetic energy
# 5 Heavy shot 2.74 grains per pellet
1200 FPS
8.75 lbs of kinetic energy
#9 TSS 1.2 grains per pellet
1200 FPS
3.83 ft lbs kinetic energy
That's physics
Quote from: paboxcall on June 28, 2020, 12:13:15 PM
To be clear I don't care if you shoot lead. Don't care if your too cheap, you're stocked for years with lead loads, or whatever. Just don't tout falsehoods about lead being ballistically superior to TSS because its "faster and heavier" using single data points, because that is as silly as saying steel is better than lead.
And purposely omitting real world factors like time, distance, gravity, and drag? Really helpful. So, to your recent cherry picked data point, muzzle velocity, that is information one should only use for shooting turkeys point blank range. Of course that comes with the added plus of no stray shot in the breast meat and pre-cooking from powder burns, so good on you.
Muzzle velocity is just the beginning of the equation. What happens after the equal sign (=) in that equation - retained energy at 40 yards, not muzzle energy at zero yards - is what actually matters. That TSS ballistic gel that you refused to consider or acknowledge, because you didn't want to defend downrange reality, you didn't want to talk about gel tests "at 100 yards" because I guess you've seen it, couldn't explain it staring at simple muzzle velocity numbers, so let's just ignore it.
Here is the inescapable reality:
Bigger is not always better, because a larger object in flight incurs more drag from the air. That is a fact. Bigger pellets with greater surface area slow more quickly, and bigger pellets slowing quickly due to air resistance lose energy faster over time and distance. Only way to overcome this is go faster. But going faster has trade offs and limits, so smaller pellets with more mass are significantly less susceptible to drag over time and distance making them preferable.
Heavier - you're word, not mine - is not better because "heavier" is more influenced by gravity over time and distance than a smaller object. Again, fact. At the muzzle, doesn't matter, down range it matters a lot, try throwing a volley ball and a bowling ball. The "heavier" lead pellet will slow more quickly over time and distance, dissipating forward kinetic energy trying to overcome the effect of gravity compared to its smaller more dense counterpart. Only way to overcome this is go faster, but faster has trade offs and limits, especially on patterning.
As mentioned earlier in a post, really, really fast is not always better because the faster an object is launched the more quickly it slows over time and distance. Yet again, physics. That is why 1,500 fps steel shot really provides no significant net benefit over slower steel shot because of steel's lack of mass compared to lead.
What happens at the muzzle is just one puzzle piece, though important - its the energy imparted on the object to begin its flight. What actually happens both in flight and at the target at 40 yards down range factoring - not omitting as you do - air resistance and gravity is way more important than initial muzzle velocity, and what all ethical hunters should consider.
Will #5 lead do the job at 40 yards? Yep, but it must be both bigger and heavier to preserve energy and still overcome challenging losses from gravity and drag to get the same job done as smaller TSS.
What would one choose for hunting coyotes at longer distances? #4 lead or #4 TSS? Either or, but TSS is obviously far more superior retaining energy further down range than its lead counterpart of the same size, even with slightly dissimilar muzzle velocities.
What should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards? #9 lead or #9 TSS? Obviously #9 lead is inferior and #9 TSS is far superior retaining energy down range because of its greater mass and hardness.
Now knowing #9 lead is inferior to #9 TSS because of mass, what should one choose to hunt turkeys at 40 yards, a large payload of #5 lead or smaller payload of #9 TSS? Either or will do the job, but - big but here - because of physics lead must be bigger to get the same job done and be subjected to the laws of physics in route. Therefore TSS is more efficient than lead of equivalent, or even larger size, yet the end result is the same at 40 yards with #5 lead and #9 TSS. One punched tag.
But to my very first point many circular post responses ago...to believe single data points, like initial muzzle velocity printed on a cardboard box, tells you nothing about what's happening at 40 yards. One must consider time, distance, gravity and drag.
So, if you won't actually consider the whole story, and instead respond with snippets and pictures of individual puzzle pieces because at face value it seemingly makes some obtuse and incomplete point, well there really is no point continually trying to pop the bubble you obviously choose to live in. Really, go read the articles and research on Apex or other manufacturers, and watch load testing on youtube, do research and discover all the facts important to making a fully informed decision instead of wrongly stating things like 'faster, heavier lead' is superior to smaller TSS. It just isn't.
So again, if you need to have the last word, even when its not factual, have it. All good, I'm finished providing the rest of the story from what I learned as I went from lead to Hevi to TSS. Got better things to do than go circles over piecemeal, single data point, incomplete, nonsensical responses.
Since your the one that first brought up physics tell me what part of these numbers are not a fact?
As for the other guy saying he thinks he'd have a better chance of killing something to eat with TSS with a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge. I'd like to know what you did before tss just walk around the woods and hope for some magic shot shell to show up and defy the laws of physics and common sense so you could finally kill something? Lol
Just for comparison because the speed thing has got you confused. What if the lead #5 started out 200fps SLOWER than the TSS.
#5 lead @ 1000 fps 5.77 ft lbs kinetic energy
Ok so how slow would a #5 lead have to start off to match or lose to a TSS #9
#5 lead @ 800 fps 3.69 ft lbs kinetic energy
So unless the 1300 fps mv lead #5 will lose 500 fps over 120 feet or 40 yards and the magic TSS # 9 somehow doesn't lose a single fps over the same 120 feet or somehow doubles it's weight in flight then the TSS #9 loses every time.
I've already said it before I don't have anything against TSS just had enough of the same ol misinformation and outright lies about the weight, energy etc. TSS doesn't cost more than the Nitros in HVY that I sometimes shoot so if the TSS was really superior it be just as easy to buy that. But if you actually look at the numbers it ain't. And if your gonna compare a 20 to a 12 and use the best super duper TSS load for comparison you should also use the best 12 gauge load available and every single time the 12 will win if you don't skew things in the 20s favor.
As for as killing effectiveness I've called 3 Gobblers to 30 yards or so and someone else shot them 2 with TSS # 8s and one with TSS #9 all 3 died there was no more or less flopping after the shot. The only difference I saw was the damage. There was no visible damage to any of the 3 and with a lot of dead Gobblers shot with lead and HVY shot the difference was noticeable. One was body shot and yes he died but there was no massive bone breakage until we skinned him you could not tell he was even shot. The only ballistic gel comparisons I've seen is TSS to lead at extreme range. Like I said I don't care what TSS does at 80 or 100 yards that's beyond the effective range of lead or Hvy shot BECAUSE they weren't designed to kill past that distance. I've also heard some knocked down and ran off TSS stories and although I didn't see it first hand the story's are at the least as reliable as the dropped him a t80 yards broke every bone but his left foot stories I've heard.
Feel free to believe Voodoo or magic is somehow making a TSS # 9 gain weight and also increase speed after leaving the barrel I'll stick with factual numbers
I didn't dispute your copy / paste of muzzle velocities, you did a really good job. In fact I said that little bit of relevant information you provided was important. Though of course its important only for understanding what happens exactly at the end of a standard test barrel, not down range where it matters. But whatever.
So I'm just going to agree with you that what ever gets printed on the box, what happens at the muzzle in testing loads, that data point trumps all else past the muzzle. And we'll pretend drag and gravity aren't things.
Glad we resolved that.
Quote from: paboxcall on June 28, 2020, 02:51:57 PM
I didn't dispute your copy / paste of muzzle velocities, you did a really good job. In fact I said that little bit of relevant information you provided was important. Though of course its important only for understanding what happens exactly at the end of a standard test barrel, not down range where it matters. But whatever.
So I'm just going to agree with you that what ever gets printed on the box, what happens at the muzzle in testing loads, that data point trumps all else past the muzzle. And we'll pretend drag and gravity aren't things.
Glad we resolved that.
500 FPS Five hundred
Are you saying you believe drag, gravity humidity or maybe pollen will slow down the lead 500 fps over 40 yards while not affecting the TSS #9? Wouldn't the same variables affect the tss? Even if the smaller shot lost less velocity it would still lose some and it already has non to lose. Non of the examples were cut and pasted it's really just simple math non of which is contained on a shell box that I'm aware of. No TSS seller would possibly want anything like those numbers printed anywhere lol. If you can't understand the numbers I don't know what else to tell you.
Same velocity TSS loses
Slow down the lead by anything less than 500 feet per second TSS loses
And you really don't want to start looking at HVY shot numbers because HVY shot really is heavier than lead not a fantasy and it is traveling faster.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 02:59:43 PM
If you can't understand the numbers I don't know what else to tell you.
:TooFunny: :TooFunny:
Its over LA. I'm moving on.
Well I was kinda hoping you'd have some kind of comeback to try and refute the facts. But I don't blame you there's noway around it unless you believe in magic or voodoo. If you need anymore help with physics vocabulary or formulas I'll see what I can do to help, have a good one!
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 03:55:29 PM
Well I was kinda hoping you'd have some kind of comeback to try and refute the facts. But I don't blame you there's noway around it unless you believe in magic or voodoo. If you need anymore help with physics vocabulary or formulas I'll see what I can do to help, have a good one!
Wow, so grateful you took time to help me see that TSS is a total sham. :icon_thumright:
:TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny:
T.HE S.PECIAL S.AUCE
I JUST ENJOY SHOOTING MY SHOTGUN AT TURKEYS ... :OGturkeyhead:
Quote from: paboxcall on June 28, 2020, 03:59:51 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 03:55:29 PM
Well I was kinda hoping you'd have some kind of comeback to try and refute the facts. But I don't blame you there's noway around it unless you believe in magic or voodoo. If you need anymore help with physics vocabulary or formulas I'll see what I can do to help, have a good one!
Wow, so grateful you took time to help me see that TSS is a total sham. :icon_thumright:
:TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny:
I wouldn't say the TSS is the sham when you boil it down 100 #5s or 300 #9s get the job done. The sham is believing or saying that the TSS #9 is heavier or has more energy than a lead #5 which is the exact false fantasy being propagated over and over to the point no one even bothers to see if it's true. I've read the same thing written in Field and stream by so called outdoor writers I've seen it in Federal advertising. Who originally came up with this fairy tale and why has no one bothered to check?
How could anyone believe a 20 gauge shooting a lighter load at lower velocity is really superior to a 12 gauge with a heavier faster load of shot?
I don't know the answers but it's been going on long before you and I had this discussion. And I guess it doesn't matter, if you feel better believing false information about what your shooting fine. Keeping your shots to reasonable ranges probably doesn't matter but a lot of people believe anything they read and really think a .410 or 28 gauge is a 50 yard Turkey gun or that the superior weight of tss makes 60-80 yard shots ok with a 12 or 20. These same people have no idea they are believing a sales pitch directed at the gullible or desperate.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 04:51:13 PM
The sham is believing or saying that the TSS #9 is heavier or has more energy than a lead #5 which is the exact false fantasy
Never once said #9 TSS to be "heavier" than #5 lead. In fact (and little secret, you won't read this on the muzzle velocity tab of the box, your only apparent source of information), #9 TSS is about half the weight of a #5 lead pellet, and about the same as #7.5 lead. But you already knew that because you have been arguing the same tiresome points about lead muzzle velocites with others for two years. Circular arguments with cherry picked data points sure are your MO buddy.
So the fact remains a #9 TSS pellet is way more potent downrange than its much larger #7.5 lead counterpart in weight, whether same speed or #7.5 lead went faster initially. That makes small TSS superior to larger sized lead, and given TSS mass, hardness, and shot count, better in all measures than its larger lead pellet counterparts from an efficiency stand point, or conserving energy.
You got stuck on the notion that bigger, heavier lead objects are without question superior (except maybe Hevi, because Hevi is heavier whether we believe you or not :TooFunny: It is heavier, we all know that). But bigger, heavier lead isn't better. It's as good as smaller TSS maybe at best.
Lead must be bigger and there must be more of it to work as well as TSS. Fact. So the ballistic efficiency win goes to #9 TSS. Just physics.
One can put 3 to 4 times the hits on target with #9s compared to #5 lead at 40 yards. Fact. Ballistic gel testing tells you the additional mass of a #9 TSS retains more than ample energy downrange to get the job done, plus hundreds of added hits on target, plus the significantly better penetration. Fact. Fact. Fact.
Hmmm...smaller loads, more hits, blistering energy, swarms of pellets, lower drag, blah, blah, blah. Not have to tote the 835, get beat up with ginormous 3.5" loads, etc.
That's a win for those who move to TSS.
:z-winnersmiley:
We can keep doing this, but I am really done this time LA. You won't bait me further with your refusal to accept reality. You're a lead guy, every one here gets it. Good for you. I was too, but now I'm not. All good. I've read your same circular unfounded lead theories in other TSS threads from like two years ago. I'm not going to change your mind, only you can do that through your own research and learning.
Bottom line is this: a lead load must be both bigger in pellet size, and contain more of those pellets in the shot cup, to remotely come close in performance to smaller TSS, that's old news. It really is as simple as mass, pellet count, and down range penetration.
All the best to you and your lead loads. Wish you continuing success with them.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 02:17:17 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 09:17:17 AM
Since your the one that first brought up physics tell me what part of these numbers are not a fact?
As for the other guy saying he thinks he'd have a better chance of killing something to eat with TSS with a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge. I'd like to know what you did before tss just walk around the woods and hope for some magic shot shell to show up and defy the laws of physics and common sense so you could finally kill something? Lol
From crow, this post below is mine
What I did before TSS was kill game with lead pellets (for over 50years), from doves to deer, including waterfowl before the lead ban. With .410's, 20's and 12gauges.
I have enough practical experience with lead to know it kills very good, never said it didn't. I also have seen enough results with TSS that I will stick with my earlier post and will take a 20 ga with TSS over a 3" 12 ga with lead for pure killing results, not just holes in paper.
Do you have any practical experience yourself with TSS to back up what your posting or just going by a couple of gobblers you seen shot (maybe with the edge of the pattern, or the energy charts you post.
charts have their place but paper calculations don't tell the whole real world story. In the case of TSS penetration and killing performance on game is better than what ballistic gel shows. or what the KPY program calculates it will be in gel.
Quote from: paboxcall on June 28, 2020, 06:26:43 PM
I've read your same circular unfounded lead theories in other TSS threads from like two years ago.
[/quote]
You have not read any arguments about TSS from 2 years ago from me that's in your head. You also are still confused about the meaning of the words mass, density and apparently circular and single lol
You quoted my original post saying it was silly to say TSS loads are slower. I then showed you that unless you specifically go looking for a slower lead or HVY turkey load the lead and HVY will be faster. Then you got yourself twisted up on mass, density the momentum formula etc. The reason for the #5 to #9 comparison is because that is what is continually used in the sales pitch saying the TSS #9 is as heavy as a lead #5, it is not and that was my original point. The fact that you have agreed TSS #9 is 1/2 the weight of a lead #5 is a break thru for you lol. If you remember you quoted that same statement with a laughing emoji previously or maybe you forgot?
Quote from: paboxcall on June 27, 2020, 06:45:48 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 27, 2020, 06:35:56 PM
but each one of those tiny holes was made by a pellet half as heavy as a lead or HVY 5 going slower.
:TooFunny: :TooFunny:
??
This thread turned into a Facebook squabble. But yes, Sir-diealot, I think a box of TSS would make a wonderful sportsman giveaway. I'd love to win a box of 20ga #9.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/l1J3G5lf06vi58EIE/giphy.gif)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: crow on June 28, 2020, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 02:17:17 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 09:17:17 AM
Since your the one that first brought up physics tell me what part of these numbers are not a fact?
As for the other guy saying he thinks he'd have a better chance of killing something to eat with TSS with a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge. I'd like to know what you did before tss just walk around the woods and hope for some magic shot shell to show up and defy the laws of physics and common sense so you could finally kill something? Lol
From crow, this post below is mine
What I did before TSS was kill game with lead pellets (for over 50years), from doves to deer, including waterfowl before the lead ban. With .410's, 20's and 12gauges.
I have enough practical experience with lead to know it kills very good, never said it didn't. I also have seen enough results with TSS that I will stick with my earlier post and will take a 20 ga with TSS over a 3" 12 ga with lead for pure killing results, not just holes in paper.
Do you have any practical experience yourself with TSS to back up what your posting or just going by a couple of gobblers you seen shot (maybe with the edge of the pattern, or the energy charts you post.
charts have their place but paper calculations don't tell the whole real world story. In the case of TSS penetration and killing performance on game is better than what ballistic gel shows. or what the KPY program calculates it will be in gel.
Non of what I posted came from any chart you can figure the kinetic energy yourself it's not hard you don't need any KPY program but you do have to know the weight of the shot. The whole point of the numbers was to refute the TSS #9 having more energy than a lead # 5 do the math yourself if you don't believe it. If however you believe TSS defies the "physics" Pa originally brought up that's on you. If you believe TSS has some magic abilities that can't be quantified by physics but just "IS" better that's on you as well lol.
All I've seen is a lot of gibberish with the word fact written behind it. I've seen no actual facts that back up the more energy or heavier shot claims my original post stated. Clearly if you've read all this you've seen the actual energy numbers and true weight comparisons of TSS to lead or heavy shot and that was the intended point. Maybe even learned something about the difference between mass and density lol. I don't care what you shoot but if it's TSS #9s it ain't got more energy than the lead I'm shooting it ain't heavier and what happens when it's shot into jello at extreme distances means nothing to me.
Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on June 28, 2020, 08:33:02 PM
This thread turned into a Facebook squabble. But yes, Sir-diealot, I think a box of TSS would make a wonderful sportsman giveaway. I'd love to win a box of 20ga #9.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/l1J3G5lf06vi58EIE/giphy.gif)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Chuck Norris's teeth break TSS #9 shot into pieces
LaLongbeard, I did read the whole thing,
and now I'm ready for some lighter reading, like "The Fall of Rome"
:happy0167:
Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on June 28, 2020, 08:33:02 PM
This thread turned into a Facebook squabble. But yes, Sir-diealot, I think a box of TSS would make a wonderful sportsman giveaway. I'd love to win a box of 20ga #9.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/l1J3G5lf06vi58EIE/giphy.gif)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks, my other suggestion was reloading equipment or a gift certificate to MidwayUSA.com
Quote from: crow on June 28, 2020, 09:31:09 PM
LaLongbeard, I did read the whole thing,
and now I'm ready for some lighter reading, like "The Fall of Rome"
:happy0167:
Lol yea I guess me and Pa got a little carried away, I doubt either of us was convinced by the other. I forgot to ask him what his stance is on decoys and reaping ?
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
Quote from: crow on June 28, 2020, 09:31:09 PM
LaLongbeard, I did read the whole thing,
and now I'm ready for some lighter reading, like "The Fall of Rome"
:happy0167:
Lol yea I guess me and Pa got a little carried away, I doubt either of us was convinced by the other. I forgot to ask him what his stance is on decoys and reaping ?
Pass on both of those. How about you?
I do like new stuff to make the gun more fun to tinker with though.
Easy choice for me lead is not legal so it has to be an alternative shot
Quote from: paboxcall on June 28, 2020, 10:40:21 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
Quote from: crow on June 28, 2020, 09:31:09 PM
LaLongbeard, I did read the whole thing,
and now I'm ready for some lighter reading, like "The Fall of Rome"
:happy0167:
Lol yea I guess me and Pa got a little carried away, I doubt either of us was convinced by the other. I forgot to ask him what his stance is on decoys and reaping ?
Pass on both of those. How about you?
I do like new stuff to make the gun more fun to tinker with though.
Yep hard pass on the decoys and reaping.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 29, 2020, 12:02:57 PM
Quote from: paboxcall on June 28, 2020, 10:40:21 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 28, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
Quote from: crow on June 28, 2020, 09:31:09 PM
LaLongbeard, I did read the whole thing,
and now I'm ready for some lighter reading, like "The Fall of Rome"
:happy0167:
Lol yea I guess me and Pa got a little carried away, I doubt either of us was convinced by the other. I forgot to ask him what his stance is on decoys and reaping ?
Pass on both of those. How about you?
I do like new stuff to make the gun more fun to tinker with though.
Yep hard pass on the decoys and reaping.
:icon_thumright:
You guys kept it professional, clean. I learned a lot about this topic from both of you....
paboxcall has a firm grasp on physics. I can only read the quoted replies of la. The only thing I would disagree with is some of pa's terms, where he was quoting more about fluids-like the term momentum-still accurate, just less commonly used.
My point, that TSS is denser than lead, is factual. Denser material of a similar size and coefficient of friction will retain it's energy longer-that is also a fact. Force = Mass x acceleration. Weight and density are two different things. So is mass. They are not interchangeable terms. Lead pellets must be larger (volume) to have the same weight as TSS because they are less dense. Read up on Newton's Laws and try to understand them. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts.
I do get the anti-TSS argument about wound channels and bleeding-there is a tradeoff. I don't even use TSS, probably never will.
What silvestris said is the truth as it relates to actual hunting though. Call them close and it does not matter.
I can't really add anything more than what pa has said for anyone inclined to actually care about the physics of it. That was the original question and the only reason I added anything.
Quote from: g8rvet on June 29, 2020, 08:47:10 PM
I can only read the quoted replies of la.
Yes it was unfortunate that I had to block you from being able to read my posts. But you had an unhealthy fixation on anything I posted and I know it may be hard for you to believe, but I blocked you for your own well being. ????
I think me an Pa got it figured out...move along
I found this chart, which I find interesting. It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards. Looks like #7 TSS is the heavy hitter and maintains penetration, velocity, and pellet energy better than #9s and #5 lead. Either way, if you have adequate pattern density at 40 yards, any of the 3 will do the job. Good discussion.
click the PDF below to look at that chart. I tried to upload just a picture of the chart but I couldn't.
Good point blake. It is must be because a #5 lead has more force than the # 9 TSS because either it had a greater mass (density per unit of volume-we KNOW it has more volume, it is larger) or more velocity (I would suspect both are true). If the #7 TSS has greater mass, even with less velocity, it's force could be greater than the #5 lead pellet if the greater mass offsets the lesser velocity. Sounds like that is not true for the #9.
All this reminds me of Karamojo Bell and his belief that there was no such thing as "knock down power" when dealing with large game (like elephants). The "experts" of the day all advocated carrying hand cannons (like 4 gauge smoothbores) to kill elephants. He used the (at the time) tiny 7x57 Mauser and even the .303 British to kill elephants and he did it at a rate that no one will ever accomplish again. Penetration to the brain was what he advocated and they all thought he was nuts. Kinda true here, any pellet (#9 and up) that has sufficient energy delivered to the brain of the turkey will kill it stone dead. You just have to get more density in the smaller pellets to deliver the proper energy or shoot them very close. I shot up several boxes of #7 steel, that were given to me, at woodies in the river swamp. I just had to take close shots and they killed them quite effectively.
Quote from: g8rvet on June 30, 2020, 02:12:11 PM
All this reminds me of Karamojo Bell and his belief that there was no such thing as "knock down power" when dealing with large game (like elephants). The "experts" of the day all advocated carrying hand cannons (like 4 gauge smoothbores) to kill elephants. He used the (at the time) tiny 7x57 Mauser and even the .303 British to kill elephants and he did it at a rate that no one will ever accomplish again. Penetration to the brain was what he advocated and they all thought he was nuts.
Just an off-topic pondering:
I wonder what thoughts about caliber and knock-down power occurred in those few seconds after the guy hunting elephants missed the brain on that first shot and a really pissed-off elephant was on his way to squash him like a bug?! ;D :D
Without rebooting the whole argument. My whole intended point was that a lot of the TSS information is both misleading and wrong. Never said it won't work. But the more energy or more weight is false. Momentum, kinetic Energy, mass, density are used interchangeably and are not the same. Penetration is good but bones break by force and energy not penetration. There are hundreds of people believing the hype and have no idea of the actual facts. The question I have is not will a a TSS -# 9 kill a turkey but why do so many people lie about its comparison to a lead #5? On the bright side at least they have toned it down some, if anybody remembers about 2 years ago people were saying a TSS#9 was the equivalent of a lead # 4!
Bell was an exception to the rule. For every elephant he killed with a 7x57 there is a story of a hunter being run down and obliterated by a wounded elephant. And that is the reason every other professional elephant hunter before or after Bell used bigger heavier rifles and why most thought he was an idiot.
Bell should have used #9 TSS.
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 30, 2020, 02:29:32 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on June 30, 2020, 02:12:11 PM
All this reminds me of Karamojo Bell and his belief that there was no such thing as "knock down power" when dealing with large game (like elephants). The "experts" of the day all advocated carrying hand cannons (like 4 gauge smoothbores) to kill elephants. He used the (at the time) tiny 7x57 Mauser and even the .303 British to kill elephants and he did it at a rate that no one will ever accomplish again. Penetration to the brain was what he advocated and they all thought he was nuts.
Just an off-topic pondering:
I wonder what thoughts about caliber and knock-down power occurred in those few seconds after the guy hunting elephants missed the brain on that first shot and a really pissed-off elephant was on his way to squash him like a bug?! ;D :D
He died an old man back in Scotland-with over a thousand dead elephants to his credit. But Peter Capstick said that many men tried to emulate his shooting skills, unsuccessfully! When he was shooting for herd control he would drop the lead bull and pick off the others sauntering away. The rear ward brain shot is known as the Bell Shot. I knew this a turkey hunting site, but anyone that loves adventure should read Capstick. Amazing, true, well researched stories with no embellishment of a time long gone.
Quote from: paboxcall on June 30, 2020, 03:48:00 PM
Bell should have used #9 TSS.
Now that is funny! he did kinda use the TSS of his day - full metal jacket!
Quote from: blake_08 on June 30, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
I found this chart, which I find interesting. It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards. Looks like #7 TSS is the heavy hitter and maintains penetration, velocity, and pellet energy better than #9s and #5 lead. Either way, if you have adequate pattern density at 40 yards, any of the 3 will do the job. Good discussion.
click the PDF below to look at that chart. I tried to upload just a picture of the chart but I couldn't.
Great chart. Thanks for posting. That penetration energy (kinetic energy/unit area) is the leading order term in ballistic penetration calculations, whether through soft viscous materials (ballistic gelatin, flesh) or hard materials (armor plate, bone). I use TSS #9s in a 20 gauge, my hunting buddy uses lead #5s in a 12 gauge. At the ranges we shoot, neither of us feels at a disadvantage to the other. If I was required to use lead, I would switch to a 12 gauge. TSS and HWT before it, really opened things up for the smaller gauges because they permit higher mass payloads at SAAMI pressures and typical velocities.
I have to say #9 TSS is the cats meow in a 20 gauge.
Quote from: g8rvet on June 30, 2020, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: paboxcall on June 30, 2020, 03:48:00 PM
Bell should have used #9 TSS.
Now that is funny! he did kinda use the TSS of his day - full metal jacket!
Hey Vet hows it going? Funny you mention the Bell Shot. I knew of him but haven't read any of what you mentioned. I'll have too look it up. Bubba
Going well Chief! Hope you had a great turkey season. Ours was great, but duck season was a lot of work and not much to show here in the north.
Bell wrote his own books, but they are a tough read with the Victorian language. Capstick does a great job putting it in modern English and tells many a tale of other adventurists too.
Quote from: g8rvet on June 30, 2020, 08:39:27 PM
Going well Chief! Hope you had a great turkey season. Ours was great, but duck season was a lot of work and not much to show here in the north.
Bell wrote his own books, but they are a tough read with the Victorian language. Capstick does a great job putting it in modern English and tells many a tale of other adventurists too.
My turkey season was okay we called in a few birds and killed 2. I killed a Jake on the last weekend of the season. I spent most of the season trying to get a couple of kids their first bird with no success.
Duck season the same here. I mostly took kids out and let them shoot Black Bellies. We found a good flock of Teal on one of our ranches and went back with some hunters next day and gone. Bubba
Okay so let me ask this since it involves numbers and thus I am lost, I have been using Longbear XR #6 shot (I have never seen a pattern of number 5 shot I have even been close to liking but have liked most I have seen with number 6 shot so I use 6) Would using number 8 shot be better or worse in TSS? (#8 is the highest you can go in NY and I think lowest is #4) I honestly have zero interest in shooting over 35-40 yards, I have neither the eyes nor the skill to do so and I owe it to the turkey to realize that and not push it, but I do like to try new things just for the fun of it, I can't count all the different kind of arrow vanes, broadheads, broadhead weight and spines of arrows I have tried but I just like to do that stuff. If there is no real benefit then I would rather not waste my money.
Honestly Steve, if the #6 pattern well through your gun, moving to #8 TSS is of no measurable benefit, other than you like making bunch more holes in something. If that is your range give or take, your current shell will get it done no problem.
Save the money on the new shells, different choke tube possibly, patterning, and spend it on other toys.
Quote from: paboxcall on June 30, 2020, 10:19:09 PM
Honestly Steve, if the #6 pattern well through your gun, moving to #8 TSS is of no measurable benefit, other than you like making bunch more holes in something. If that is your range give or take, your current shell will get it done no problem.
Save the money on the new shells, different choke tube possibly, patterning, and spend it on other toys.
Thanks, I have fooled around with trying another choke tube, I am running a Remington Turkey Full choke I think they call them now.
Quote from: blake_08 on June 30, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
I found this chart, which I find interesting. It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards. Looks like #7 TSS is the heavy hitter and maintains penetration, velocity, and pellet energy better than #9s and #5 lead. Either way, if you have adequate pattern density at 40 yards, any of the 3 will do the job. Good discussion.
click the PDF below to look at that chart. I tried to upload just a picture of the chart but I couldn't.
Hard to believe someone actually put a chart on the Internet with that info.
Good find...kinda wish you'd posted it yesterday would have saved a lot of typing lol
:icon_thumright:
Quote from: paboxcall on June 30, 2020, 10:19:09 PM
Honestly Steve, if the #6 pattern well through your gun, moving to #8 TSS is of no measurable benefit, other than you like making bunch more holes in something. If that is your range give or take, your current shell will get it done no problem.
Save the money on the new shells, different choke tube possibly, patterning, and spend it on other toys.
Found a picture of it, this is what I am using now.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on June 30, 2020, 11:04:14 PM
Quote from: blake_08 on June 30, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
I found this chart, which I find interesting. It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards. Looks like #7 TSS is the heavy hitter and maintains penetration, velocity, and pellet energy better than #9s and #5 lead. Either way, if you have adequate pattern density at 40 yards, any of the 3 will do the job. Good discussion.
click the PDF below to look at that chart. I tried to upload just a picture of the chart but I couldn't.
Hard to believe someone actually put a chart on the Internet with that info.
Good find...kinda wish you'd posted it yesterday would have saved a lot of typing lol
Honestly, i found it yesterday but i figured I'd just sit on it and let y'all hash it out for awhile. Sometimes it's hard to find good entertainment on a Monday!
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: Sir-diealot on June 30, 2020, 10:22:52 PM
Quote from: paboxcall on June 30, 2020, 10:19:09 PM
Honestly Steve, if the #6 pattern well through your gun, moving to #8 TSS is of no measurable benefit, other than you like making bunch more holes in something. If that is your range give or take, your current shell will get it done no problem.
Save the money on the new shells, different choke tube possibly, patterning, and spend it on other toys.
Thanks, I have fooled around with trying another choke tube, I am running a Remington Turkey Full choke I think they call them now.
If it was me I'd stick with it if it's working now. It's fun to try different things but it can get expensive. If it was a cheaper shell I'd say try it. Bubba
Blake,
Have to admit your comment made me chuckle.
Quote from: blake_08 on June 30, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards.
Now if people would only comprehend what they are reading??
Either shoot TSS #7s or stop lying to yourself and everybody else
OK, so last night I saw the chart and was all like :newmascot:
I decided to sleep on it to see if I would change my mind in the morning and go back to my lead roots. Nope, I would not change anything I said earlier.
The charts are useful for a starting point, I agree with that. In the past I've asked for KPY #'s several times to have an idea of how TSS will penetrate compared to lead.
But based on my own experiences hunting with TSS for several years (spring and fall), I still say the practical real world hunting results are better with TSS than the charts are showing.
And as long as it's available I would still take a 20ga and TSS over a 3" 12ga and any #6-#4 lead load I could choose
If anyone wants the total lead experience there is a 10.9lb 10 gauge SXS for sale on Lion Country :TooFunny: ( it's not mine)
Quote from: ChiefBubba on July 01, 2020, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on June 30, 2020, 10:22:52 PM
Quote from: paboxcall on June 30, 2020, 10:19:09 PM
Honestly Steve, if the #6 pattern well through your gun, moving to #8 TSS is of no measurable benefit, other than you like making bunch more holes in something. If that is your range give or take, your current shell will get it done no problem.
Save the money on the new shells, different choke tube possibly, patterning, and spend it on other toys.
Thanks, I have fooled around with trying another choke tube, I am running a Remington Turkey Full choke I think they call them now.
If it was me I'd stick with it if it's working now. It's fun to try different things but it can get expensive. If it was a cheaper shell I'd say try it. Bubba
Looks like that will be what I will do. Thanks.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on July 01, 2020, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: blake_08 on June 30, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards.
Now if people would only comprehend what they are reading??
Either shoot TSS #7s or stop lying to yourself and everybody else
I did actually comprehend it, and your conclusion regarding #7 TSS trumping everything is 100% spot on, #7 TSS is super bad medicine. However, your conclusion regarding #9 TSS isn't correct, nor does does it reflect what those charts say. For the sake of OG, keeping the difference set to 40 yards.
What is important is the percent differences in loss of energy. Math shows the percent change loss in foot-lbs is the same for the penetration and energy in these tables - do the math, lead #5 loses 65.9% of its energy at 40 yards, while the #9 TSS only sheds 51.8% of its initial muzzle energy at 40 yards. If you doubt it, I included it below.
What are the most important variables in play? Mass and physical size or surface area of the pellet - drag / air resistance / friction loss. That is expressed pointedly in the down range penetration energy where surface area differences between #5 and #9 becomes most pronounced.
A #9 TSS pellet has 55.2% greater penetration energy force than #5 lead because of its higher mass and its smaller surface area, and hardness. That math is also below, remember foot-lbs percentage loss is exactly the same in the penetration chart and the energy chart - it is exactly 65.9% for #5 lead, and 51.8% for #9 TSS.
While at first glance and without entertaining the reality of physics, the retained energy of #5 lead at 2.73 ft/lbs compared to 1.88 ft/lbs for #9 TSS may seem like an easy conclusion, that #5 lead 'hits harder.' It doesn't. The reason it doesn't is a #9 pellet is smaller with 67.3% more mass than its larger "heavier" #5 lead counterpart. This really illustrates the difference between weight and mass.
Because lead #5 has a only 1/3 the mass of a #9 TSS pellet, AND that #5 is 33.4% larger in physical size than its #9 TSS counterpart, the #9 TSS will hit harder over its surface area, and penetrate more deeply. Conversely, the lower mass and larger surface area of a #5 lead pellet, as evident in these charts, results in less penetration energy downrange on target than #9 TSS.
This is why people who shoot TSS come on OG and say things like 'I can't prove, but I know what I see when that load of TSS hits.'
Then you add significantly fewer #5 lead pellets (bigger things take up more space) hitting the 40 yard target, somewhere in the range of 100+ #5 lead in a 10" circle compared to compared to 300+ #9 TSS. Three times the pattern density, 2/3rds greater mass, less surface area, that's a freight train of TSS #9 sized energy going downrange and unleashed.
To put it another way, and while an exaggeration, sort of like getting hit with a kid's big fat wiffle ball bat compared to getting hit with the working end of a bladed 3 iron (refer to Tiger Wood's car for evidence).
So here is the math. Direct comparison in efficiencies.
Size: #5 = 0.12" #9 = 0.08"
Difference in size:
0.12 - 0.08 = 0.04"
0.04 / 0.12 = #5 pellet is 33.34% larger
Difference in mass:
0.38868 (#5 Pb) - 0.6503 (TSS) = -0.26162
-0.26162 / 0.38868 = #5 pellet has 67.3% less mass
#5 energy loss: (foot-lbs is foot-lbs in two charts, loss is the same whether penetration or straight energy)
707.7 - 241.3 = 466.6 lbs-ft.in2 lost
466.2 / 707.7 =
65.9% loss of penetration force over 40 yards, retaining slightly more than 1/3 of its initial energy at the muzzle.#9 energy loss:
776.1 - 374.4 = 401.7 lbs-ft/in2 lost
401.7 / 776.1 =
51.8% loss of penetration force over 40 yards, retaining slightly under 1/2 of its initial energy at the muzzle. -- OR -- #5 pellet ft-lbs energy loss over 40 yards:
8.00 - 2.73 = 5.27 lb-ft lost
5.27 / 8.0 = 65.9% loss of energy
#9 ft-lbs energy over 40 yards:
3.90 - 1.88 = 2.02 lb-ft lost
2.02 / 3.90 = 51.8% loss of energy
See? They are the same. What is important here is penetration energy - considering surface area and mass of the object in flight - this is exactly where #9 TSS trumps #5 lead.
40 yard energy difference between #5 pb and #9 TSS:
241.3 ft-lbs – 374.4 ft-lbs = -133.1 ft-lbs
-133.1 ft-lbs / 241.3 ft-lbs =
-55.2% less penertration energy for #5 Pb comapred to #9 TSS at 40 yardsOther factor in the momentum or force equation is speed, right? For an object with less mass to make up its shortcomings, it must go faster. So for all things being equal, as the chart notes:
#5 velocity loss over 40 yards:
1,200 - 701 = 499 fps lost
499 / 1,200 =
41.6% loss in velocity#9 over 40 yards:
1,200 - 834 = 366 fps lost
834 / 1,200 =
30.5% loss in velocitySome may argue '133 fps difference at 40 yards, big deal' until you factor in the 67% additional mass - that factors into downrange force as evidenced in the penetration energy.
You continue to hear guys say ' wow, that #9 just flat knocked them off their feet.' Now, finally, we know why.
That is comprehension.
I gots a picture of longbeard with #5 shot you would be crazy not to love.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Quote from: Happy on July 01, 2020, 03:55:03 PM
I gots a picture of longbeard with #5 shot you would be crazy not to love.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
I'm certain you do. Many more smaller holes with #9 TSS, and significantly harder TSS pellet with no deformity like lead. Lead flattens easily.
Quote from: paboxcall on July 01, 2020, 03:50:22 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on July 01, 2020, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: blake_08 on June 30, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards.
Now if people would only comprehend what they are reading??
Either shoot TSS #7s or stop lying to yourself and everybody else
I did actually comprehend it, and your conclusion regarding #7 TSS trumping everything is 100% spot on, #7 TSS is super bad medicine. However, your conclusion regarding #9 TSS isn't correct, nor does does it reflect what those charts say. For the sake of OG, keeping the difference set to 40 yards.
What is important is the percent differences in loss of energy. Math shows the percent change loss in foot-lbs is the same for the penetration and energy in these tables - do the math, lead #5 loses 65.9% of its energy at 40 yards, while the #9 TSS only sheds 51.8% of its initial muzzle energy at 40 yards. If you doubt it, I included it below.
What are the most important variables in play? Mass and physical size or surface area of the pellet - drag / air resistance / friction loss. That is expressed pointedly in the down range penetration energy where surface area differences between #5 and #9 becomes most pronounced.
A #9 TSS pellet has 55.2% greater penetration energy force than #5 lead because of its higher mass and its smaller surface area, and hardness. That math is also below, remember foot-lbs percentage loss is exactly the same in the penetration chart and the energy chart - it is exactly 65.9% for #5 lead, and 51.8% for #9 TSS.
While at first glance and without entertaining the reality of physics, the retained energy of #5 lead at 2.73 ft/lbs compared to 1.88 ft/lbs for #9 TSS may seem like an easy conclusion, that #5 lead 'hits harder.' It doesn't. The reason it doesn't is a #9 pellet is smaller with 67.3% more mass than its larger "heavier" #5 lead counterpart. This really illustrates the difference between weight and mass.
Because lead #5 has a only 1/3 the mass of a #9 TSS pellet, AND that #5 is 33.4% larger in physical size than its #9 TSS counterpart, the #9 TSS will hit harder over its surface area, and penetrate more deeply. Conversely, the lower mass and larger surface area of a #5 lead pellet, as evident in these charts, results in less penetration energy downrange on target than #9 TSS.
This is why people who shoot TSS come on OG and say things like 'I can't prove, but I know what I see when that load of TSS hits.'
Then you add significantly fewer #5 lead pellets (bigger things take up more space) hitting the 40 yard target, somewhere in the range of 100+ #5 lead in a 10" circle compared to compared to 300+ #9 TSS. Three times the pattern density, 2/3rds greater mass, less surface area, that's a freight train of TSS #9 sized energy going downrange and unleashed.
To put it another way, and while an exaggeration, sort of like getting hit with a kid's big fat wiffle ball bat compared to getting hit with the working end of a bladed 3 iron (refer to Tiger Wood's car for evidence).
So here is the math. Direct comparison in efficiencies.
Size: #5 = 0.12" #9 = 0.08"
Difference in size:
0.12 - 0.08 = 0.04"
0.04 / 0.12 = #5 pellet is 33.34% larger
Difference in mass:
0.38868 (#5 Pb) - 0.6503 (TSS) = -0.26162
-0.26162 / 0.38868 = #5 pellet has 67.3% less mass
#5 energy loss: (foot-lbs is foot-lbs in two charts, loss is the same whether penetration or straight energy)
707.7 - 241.3 = 466.6 lbs-ft.in2 lost
466.2 / 707.7 =
65.9% loss of penetration force over 40 yards, retaining slightly more than 1/3 of its initial energy at the muzzle.
#9 energy loss:
776.1 - 374.4 = 401.7 lbs-ft/in2 lost
401.7 / 776.1 =
51.8% loss of penetration force over 40 yards, retaining slightly under 1/2 of its initial energy at the muzzle.
-- OR --
#5 pellet ft-lbs energy loss over 40 yards:
8.00 - 2.73 = 5.27 lb-ft lost
5.27 / 8.0 = 65.9% loss of energy
#9 ft-lbs energy over 40 yards:
3.90 - 1.88 = 2.02 lb-ft lost
2.02 / 3.90 = 51.8% loss of energy
See? They are the same. What is important here is penetration energy - considering surface area and mass of the object in flight - this is exactly where #9 TSS trumps #5 lead.
40 yard energy difference between #5 pb and #9 TSS:
241.3 ft-lbs – 374.4 ft-lbs = -133.1 ft-lbs
-133.1 ft-lbs / 241.3 ft-lbs = -55.2% less penertration energy for #5 Pb comapred to #9 TSS at 40 yards
Other factor in the momentum or force equation is speed, right? For an object with less mass to make up its shortcomings, it must go faster. So for all things being equal, as the chart notes:
#5 velocity loss over 40 yards:
1,200 - 701 = 499 fps lost
499 / 1,200 = 41.6% loss in velocity
#9 over 40 yards:
1,200 - 834 = 366 fps lost
834 / 1,200 = 30.5% loss in velocity
Some may argue '133 fps difference at 40 yards, big deal' until you factor in the 67% additional mass - that factors into downrange force as evidenced in the penetration energy.
You continue to hear guys say ' wow, that #9 just flat knocked them off their feet.' Now, finally, we know why.
That is comprehension.
Just to be clear, where you say "mass", I believe you meant density. Mass = density x volume. The #5 lead pellet has more than twice the mass of the #9 TSS, but 2/3 the density.
Yes, Raps, thanks for clarifying, that I "explained this right." LOL. :icon_thumright:
Quote from: paboxcall on July 01, 2020, 03:50:22 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on July 01, 2020, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: blake_08 on June 30, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
It shows that while TSS retains velocity better than #5 lead, the #5 lead starts off with and maintains more pellet energy than TSS #9 to 60 yards.
Now if people would only comprehend what they are reading??
Either shoot TSS #7s or stop lying to yourself and everybody else
I did actually comprehend it, and your conclusion regarding #7 TSS trumping everything is 100% spot on, #7 TSS is super bad medicine. However, your conclusion regarding #9 TSS isn't correct, nor does does it reflect what those charts say. For the sake of OG, keeping the difference set to 40 yards.
What is important is the percent differences in loss of energy. Math shows the percent change loss in foot-lbs is the same for the penetration and energy in these tables - do the math, lead #5 loses 65.9% of its energy at 40 yards, while the #9 TSS only sheds 51.8% of its initial muzzle energy at 40 yards. If you doubt it, I included it below.
What are the most important variables in play? Mass and physical size or surface area of the pellet - drag / air resistance / friction loss. That is expressed pointedly in the down range penetration energy where surface area differences between #5 and #9 becomes most pronounced.
A #9 TSS pellet has 55.2% greater penetration energy force than #5 lead because of its higher mass and its smaller surface area, and hardness. That math is also below, remember foot-lbs percentage loss is exactly the same in the penetration chart and the energy chart - it is exactly 65.9% for #5 lead, and 51.8% for #9 TSS.
While at first glance and without entertaining the reality of physics, the retained energy of #5 lead at 2.73 ft/lbs compared to 1.88 ft/lbs for #9 TSS may seem like an easy conclusion, that #5 lead 'hits harder.' It doesn't. The reason it doesn't is a #9 pellet is smaller with 67.3% more mass than its larger "heavier" #5 lead counterpart. This really illustrates the difference between weight and mass.
Because lead #5 has a only 1/3 the mass of a #9 TSS pellet, AND that #5 is 33.4% larger in physical size than its #9 TSS counterpart, the #9 TSS will hit harder over its surface area, and penetrate more deeply. Conversely, the lower mass and larger surface area of a #5 lead pellet, as evident in these charts, results in less penetration energy downrange on target than #9 TSS.
This is why people who shoot TSS come on OG and say things like 'I can't prove, but I know what I see when that load of TSS hits.'
Then you add significantly fewer #5 lead pellets (bigger things take up more space) hitting the 40 yard target, somewhere in the range of 100+ #5 lead in a 10" circle compared to compared to 300+ #9 TSS. Three times the pattern density, 2/3rds greater mass, less surface area, that's a freight train of TSS #9 sized energy going downrange and unleashed.
To put it another way, and while an exaggeration, sort of like getting hit with a kid's big fat wiffle ball bat compared to getting hit with the working end of a bladed 3 iron (refer to Tiger Wood's car for evidence).
So here is the math. Direct comparison in efficiencies.
Size: #5 = 0.12" #9 = 0.08"
Difference in size:
0.12 - 0.08 = 0.04"
0.04 / 0.12 = #5 pellet is 33.34% larger
Difference in mass:
0.38868 (#5 Pb) - 0.6503 (TSS) = -0.26162
-0.26162 / 0.38868 = #5 pellet has 67.3% less mass
#5 energy loss: (foot-lbs is foot-lbs in two charts, loss is the same whether penetration or straight energy)
707.7 - 241.3 = 466.6 lbs-ft.in2 lost
466.2 / 707.7 =
65.9% loss of penetration force over 40 yards, retaining slightly more than 1/3 of its initial energy at the muzzle.
#9 energy loss:
776.1 - 374.4 = 401.7 lbs-ft/in2 lost
401.7 / 776.1 =
51.8% loss of penetration force over 40 yards, retaining slightly under 1/2 of its initial energy at the muzzle.
-- OR --
#5 pellet ft-lbs energy loss over 40 yards:
8.00 - 2.73 = 5.27 lb-ft lost
5.27 / 8.0 = 65.9% loss of energy
#9 ft-lbs energy over 40 yards:
3.90 - 1.88 = 2.02 lb-ft lost
2.02 / 3.90 = 51.8% loss of energy
See? They are the same. What is important here is penetration energy - considering surface area and mass of the object in flight - this is exactly where #9 TSS trumps #5 lead.
40 yard energy difference between #5 pb and #9 TSS:
241.3 ft-lbs – 374.4 ft-lbs = -133.1 ft-lbs
-133.1 ft-lbs / 241.3 ft-lbs = -55.2% less penertration energy for #5 Pb comapred to #9 TSS at 40 yards
Other factor in the momentum or force equation is speed, right? For an object with less mass to make up its shortcomings, it must go faster. So for all things being equal, as the chart notes:
#5 velocity loss over 40 yards:
1,200 - 701 = 499 fps lost
499 / 1,200 = 41.6% loss in velocity
#9 over 40 yards:
1,200 - 834 = 366 fps lost
834 / 1,200 = 30.5% loss in velocity
Some may argue '133 fps difference at 40 yards, big deal' until you factor in the 67% additional mass - that factors into downrange force as evidenced in the penetration energy.
You continue to hear guys say ' wow, that #9 just flat knocked them off their feet.' Now, finally, we know why.
That is comprehension.
That's also a lot of typing. None of that changes the chart posted lead still has more kinetic energy. Momentum is not the same. Can someone show proof the chart is wrong or that the energy comparisons I made are wrong? Energy of a projectile is easily figured. Why is it that only TSS comparisons try to use momentum while every other bullet or shot is compared with kinetic energy? # 7 TSS is heavier and can be loaded faster but that's not the comparison used most often it's the tired ol #9'to lead #5. And it still doesn't have more energy, it just does not and never will.
The wiffle ball bat analogy is about like the lead vs steel but again reversed. The lighter object being compared is still the TSS period because it weighs less.
As for the ballistic gel it does not and was never meant to replicate bones, muscle feathers or animal hide. It is a cheap consistent substance to use for comparison. It does not represent what happens in the real world when hitting bones. A #9 TSS will not break bones like a #5 lead. That's were the size and weight per pellet of lead is superior. This is not an opinion I've seen wing bones with tiny little TSS #9 holes thru them that a # 5 would have broken.
Were is the proof of #9 having more energy than a #5 or even equal energy at hunting ranges? Penetrating thru a Turkey is not the goal it's delivering force and energy. I've never once saw a need for more penetration than thru the turkeys body or head how far the pellet goes beyond that is of no concern. How many bones were broken and energy expended in the target not past the target is what counts.
For lack of a better analogy which projectile would expend more energy on target a 30/06 steel jacketed bullet or a 12 gauge lead slug. The 30/06 would probably out penetrate the slug in ballistic gel several times over. But the same steel jacket bullet would not expand and would only leave a caliber sized hole thru the deer, while the lead slug would expend all its energy inside the deer and more often than not knock him off his feet.
Until someone can change the way a projectiles energy is figured and then change the weight of a TSS #9 pellet the 9 vs 5 comparison is wrong and that's my point.
This may help (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/cd8e987f706998aa86b68850f59ff884.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
^^ LOL.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on July 01, 2020, 04:42:02 PM
That's also a lot of typing. None of that changes the chart posted lead still has more kinetic energy. Momentum is not the same. Can someone show proof the chart is wrong or that the energy comparisons I made are wrong? Energy of a projectile is easily figured. Why is it that only TSS comparisons try to use momentum while every other bullet or shot is compared with kinetic energy? # 7 TSS is heavier and can be loaded faster but that's not the comparison used most often it's the tired ol #9'to lead #5. And it still doesn't have more energy, it just does not and never will.
The wiffle ball bat analogy is about like the lead vs steel but again reversed. The lighter object being compared is still the TSS period because it weighs less.
As for the ballistic gel it does not and was never meant to replicate bones, muscle feathers or animal hide. It is a cheap consistent substance to use for comparison. It does not represent what happens in the real world when hitting bones. A #9 TSS will not break bones like a #5 lead. That's were the size and weight per pellet of lead is superior. This is not an opinion I've seen wing bones with tiny little TSS #9 holes thru them that a # 5 would have broken.
Were is the proof of #9 having more energy than a #5 or even equal energy at hunting ranges? Penetrating thru a Turkey is not the goal it's delivering force and energy. I've never once saw a need for more penetration than thru the turkeys body or head how far the pellet goes beyond that is of no concern. How many bones were broken and energy expended in the target not past the target is what counts.
For lack of a better analogy which projectile would expend more energy on target a 30/06 steel jacketed bullet or a 12 gauge lead slug. The 30/06 would probably out penetrate the slug in ballistic gel several times over. But the same steel jacket bullet would not expand and would only leave a caliber sized hole thru the deer, while the lead slug would expend all its energy inside the deer and more often than not knock him off his feet.
Until someone can change the way a projectiles energy is figured and then change the weight of a TSS #9 pellet the 9 vs 5 comparison is wrong and that's my point.
:icon_thumright:
All good, LA, just felt like doing some math during lunch break! LOL. Again, I'm no sold down the river TSS guy, just like tinkering with the new data presented.
Still hunt Hevi #7 in the 12 gauge but I love TSS in my little 20 gauge. To your point I think partly what TSS loses in mushrooming, flattening, etc. due to hardness it makes up by hitting the target so many times. Just my theory.
But here's the thing, LA. Explain to me exactly how Hevi shot, which looks like weld slag swept up off the shop floor in drips and splats, flies and patterns so incredibly well with all those flat surfaces, and retains its substantial amount of down range energy. That should be our next good conversation!
If you would have come to me with a handful of that mess suggesting we load it in a shot shell, I would have laughed.
And TSS' ability to effectively penetrate makes the shooter's knowing what is down range past the target ever the more critical. Stuff just flies and flies. Just saying.
I'm not taking sides and I shoot both TSS and lead (LB in my 12 gauge, TSS 7x9s in my sons 20 gauge) but the lead really does have more energy (kinetic energy) than the #9 TSS given the same muzzle velocity. This is what the chart shows, but I went ahead and checked the math.
Volume of #9 TSS= 2.68×10-4 or 0.000268 cubic inches
Mass= 0.081247063312 gram
KE= @ 1200 fps is 5.43464 Joules or 4.008384759 ft lb
@834 fps (40 yard velocity) is 2.62506 joules or 1.936144896 ft lb
Volume of #5 lead= 9.05×10-4 or 0.000905 cubic inches
Mass= 0.1595535655463 gram
KE= @ 1200 fps is 10.6726 Joules or 7.871705794 ft lb
@ 701 fps (40 yard velocity) is 3.64202 Joules or 2.686216099 ft lb
I got diameters of both pellets from Federal's website and density measurements from the chart. Then i used all of the decimal points and online calculators for mass and KE.
Just clearing the air here. #5 lead has more KE. It also has almost twice the mass of #9 TSS.
Quote from: blake_08 on July 01, 2020, 05:11:43 PM
I'm not taking sides and I shoot both TSS and lead (LB in my 12 gauge, TSS 7x9s in my sons 20 gauge) but the lead really does have more energy (kinetic energy) than the #9 TSS given the same muzzle velocity. This is what the chart shows, but I went ahead and checked the math.
Volume of #9 TSS= 2.68×10-4 or 0.000268 cubic inches
Mass= 0.081247063312 gram
KE= @ 1200 fps is 5.43464 Joules or 4.008384759 ft lb
@834 fps (40 yard velocity) is 2.62506 joules or 1.936144896 ft lb
Volume of #5 lead= 9.05×10-4 or 0.000905 cubic inches
Mass= 0.1595535655463 gram
KE= @ 1200 fps is 10.6726 Joules or 7.871705794 ft lb
@ 701 fps (40 yard velocity) is 3.64202 Joules or 2.686216099 ft lb
I got diameters of both pellets from Federal's website and density measurements from the chart. Then i used all of the decimal points and online calculators for mass and KE.
Just clearing the air here. #5 lead has more KE. It also has almost twice the mass of #9 TSS.
Yes, no question at all an individual #5 has more mass and more kinetic energy at typical distances. But I would also consider the total kinetic energy delivered and total penetration energy by multiplying by the number of pellets on target, a point already made by Pa.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on July 01, 2020, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: blake_08 on July 01, 2020, 05:11:43 PM
I'm not taking sides and I shoot both TSS and lead (LB in my 12 gauge, TSS 7x9s in my sons 20 gauge) but the lead really does have more energy (kinetic energy) than the #9 TSS given the same muzzle velocity. This is what the chart shows, but I went ahead and checked the math.
Volume of #9 TSS= 2.68×10-4 or 0.000268 cubic inches
Mass= 0.081247063312 gram
KE= @ 1200 fps is 5.43464 Joules or 4.008384759 ft lb
@834 fps (40 yard velocity) is 2.62506 joules or 1.936144896 ft lb
Volume of #5 lead= 9.05×10-4 or 0.000905 cubic inches
Mass= 0.1595535655463 gram
KE= @ 1200 fps is 10.6726 Joules or 7.871705794 ft lb
@ 701 fps (40 yard velocity) is 3.64202 Joules or 2.686216099 ft lb
I got diameters of both pellets from Federal's website and density measurements from the chart. Then i used all of the decimal points and online calculators for mass and KE.
Just clearing the air here. #5 lead has more KE. It also has almost twice the mass of #9 TSS.
Yes, no question at all an individual #5 has more mass and more kinetic energy at typical distances. But I would also consider the total kinetic energy delivered and total penetration energy by multiplying by the number of pellets on target, a point already made by Pa.
I totally agree with you and PA on that. My comment was made towards this particular paragraph he wrote. Just clearing up that the paragraph is false. The #9 does not have 67.3% more mass and the lead does hit harder.
Quote from: paboxcall on July 01, 2020, 03:50:22 PM
While at first glance and without entertaining the reality of physics, the retained energy of #5 lead at 2.73 ft/lbs compared to 1.88 ft/lbs for #9 TSS may seem like an easy conclusion, that #5 lead 'hits harder.' It doesn't. The reason it doesn't is a #9 pellet is smaller with 67.3% more mass than its larger "heavier" #5 lead counterpart. This really illustrates the difference between weight and mass.
I agree that the entire pattern of #9s deliver more energy because of the number of pellets on target, but if 30 pellets of tss #9s hit a gobbler, and 30 pellets of #5 lead hit a gobbler, both @ 40 yards, the 5s will deliver more energy. The lead does "hit harder".
I think this has been LAs argument all along.
Quote from: paboxcall on July 01, 2020, 04:52:25 PM
^^ LOL.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on July 01, 2020, 04:42:02 PM
That's also a lot of typing. None of that changes the chart posted lead still has more kinetic energy. Momentum is not the same. Can someone show proof the chart is wrong or that the energy comparisons I made are wrong? Energy of a projectile is easily figured. Why is it that only TSS comparisons try to use momentum while every other bullet or shot is compared with kinetic energy? # 7 TSS is heavier and can be loaded faster but that's not the comparison used most often it's the tired ol #9'to lead #5. And it still doesn't have more energy, it just does not and never will.
The wiffle ball bat analogy is about like the lead vs steel but again reversed. The lighter object being compared is still the TSS period because it weighs less.
As for the ballistic gel it does not and was never meant to replicate bones, muscle feathers or animal hide. It is a cheap consistent substance to use for comparison. It does not represent what happens in the real world when hitting bones. A #9 TSS will not break bones like a #5 lead. That's were the size and weight per pellet of lead is superior. This is not an opinion I've seen wing bones with tiny little TSS #9 holes thru them that a # 5 would have broken.
Were is the proof of #9 having more energy than a #5 or even equal energy at hunting ranges? Penetrating thru a Turkey is not the goal it's delivering force and energy. I've never once saw a need for more penetration than thru the turkeys body or head how far the pellet goes beyond that is of no concern. How many bones were broken and energy expended in the target not past the target is what counts.
For lack of a better analogy which projectile would expend more energy on target a 30/06 steel jacketed bullet or a 12 gauge lead slug. The 30/06 would probably out penetrate the slug in ballistic gel several times over. But the same steel jacket bullet would not expand and would only leave a caliber sized hole thru the deer, while the lead slug would expend all its energy inside the deer and more often than not knock him off his feet.
Until someone can change the way a projectiles energy is figured and then change the weight of a TSS #9 pellet the 9 vs 5 comparison is wrong and that's my point.
:icon_thumright:
But here's the thing, LA. Explain to me exactly how Hevi shot, which looks like weld slag swept up off the shop floor in drips and splats, flies and patterns so incredibly well with all those flat surfaces, and retains its substantial amount of down range energy. That should be our next good conversation!
If you would have come to me with a handful of that mess suggesting we load it in a shot shell, I would have laughed.
That I have no answer for. When the HVY shot thing was getting going I cut a few shells open myself and the stuck together and miss shaped pellets struck me as odd as well. But it did in fact out pattern my best lead loads everytime? It is a fun part of the sport to continually try to improve your hunting equipment. The polishing of barrels forcing cone lengthen or not ported chokes or not it can consume a lot of time between hunting seasons and that's probably part of the attraction to TSS. Knowing we will never be 100% satisfied, what could possibly be next? Just how tight a pattern and what material could be next?
Quote from: LaLongbeard on July 01, 2020, 05:54:07 PM
That I have no answer for. When the HVY shot thing was getting going I cut a few shells open myself and the stuck together and miss shaped pellets struck me as odd as well. But it did in fact out pattern my best lead loads everytime? It is a fun part of the sport to continually try to improve your hunting equipment. The polishing of barrels forcing cone lengthen or not ported chokes or not it can consume a lot of time between hunting seasons and that's probably part of the attraction to TSS. Knowing we will never be 100% satisfied, what could possibly be next? Just how tight a pattern and what material could be next?
There's good reason the military is shooting depleted uranium projectiles and not tungsten projectiles...Wonder if it they use it in a shot shell, and if its round or look like weld spatter? :z-dizzy: :goofball:
Quote from: blake_08 on July 01, 2020, 05:30:09 PM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on July 01, 2020, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: blake_08 on July 01, 2020, 05:11:43 PM
I'm not taking sides and I shoot both TSS and lead (LB in my 12 gauge, TSS 7x9s in my sons 20 gauge) but the lead really does have more energy (kinetic energy) than the #9 TSS given the same muzzle velocity. This is what the chart shows, but I went ahead and checked the math.
Volume of #9 TSS= 2.68×10-4 or 0.000268 cubic inches
Mass= 0.081247063312 gram
KE= @ 1200 fps is 5.43464 Joules or 4.008384759 ft lb
@834 fps (40 yard velocity) is 2.62506 joules or 1.936144896 ft lb
Volume of #5 lead= 9.05×10-4 or 0.000905 cubic inches
Mass= 0.1595535655463 gram
KE= @ 1200 fps is 10.6726 Joules or 7.871705794 ft lb
@ 701 fps (40 yard velocity) is 3.64202 Joules or 2.686216099 ft lb
I got diameters of both pellets from Federal's website and density measurements from the chart. Then i used all of the decimal points and online calculators for mass and KE.
Just clearing the air here. #5 lead has more KE. It also has almost twice the mass of #9 TSS.
Yes, no question at all an individual #5 has more mass and more kinetic energy at typical distances. But I would also consider the total kinetic energy delivered and total penetration energy by multiplying by the number of pellets on target, a point already made by Pa.
I totally agree with you and PA on that. My comment was made towards this particular paragraph he wrote. Just clearing up that the paragraph is false. The #9 does not have 67.3% more mass and the lead does hit harder.
Quote from: paboxcall on July 01, 2020, 03:50:22 PM
While at first glance and without entertaining the reality of physics, the retained energy of #5 lead at 2.73 ft/lbs compared to 1.88 ft/lbs for #9 TSS may seem like an easy conclusion, that #5 lead 'hits harder.' It doesn't. The reason it doesn't is a #9 pellet is smaller with 67.3% more mass than its larger "heavier" #5 lead counterpart. This really illustrates the difference between weight and mass.
I agree that the entire pattern of #9s deliver more energy because of the number of pellets on target, but if 30 pellets of tss #9s hit a gobbler, and 30 pellets of #5 lead hit a gobbler, both @ 40 yards, the 5s will deliver more energy. The lead does "hit harder".
I think this has been LAs argument all along.
So obviously there is a reason "penetration energy" is reported in foot-pounds per square inch, while "pellet energy" is reported in just foot-pounds. They are not the equivalent nor interchangeable, hence a need for two separate tables, however they do scale as I demonstrated in my math.
How I interpret this is the penetration table is a measure of force applied by the moving object, in foot pounds, to one square inch. And TSS #9 impact translates to more foot pounds of energy per square inch than lead.
I don't think penetration is literal here, meaning depth or ability to achieve depth. Instead its describing the magnitude of force impacting the target surface across one square inch. There are 12 square inches in one square foot so there's a multiplier effect here as well.
Or not. Anyone got a number for Dr. Sheldon Cooper or Professor Proton?
Quote from: paboxcall on July 01, 2020, 06:32:54 PM
So obviously there is a reason "penetration energy" is reported in foot-pounds per square inch, while "pellet energy" is reported in just foot-pounds. They are not the equivalent nor interchangeable, hence a need for two separate tables, however they do scale as I demonstrated in my math.
How I interpret this is the penetration table is a measure of force applied by the moving object, in foot pounds, to one square inch. And TSS #9 impact translates to more foot pounds of energy per square inch than lead.
I don't think penetration is literal here, meaning depth or ability to achieve depth. Instead its describing the magnitude of force impacting the target surface across one square inch. There are 12 square inches in one square foot so there's a multiplier effect here as well.
Or not. Anyone got a number for Dr. Sheldon Cooper or Professor Proton?
So to further clarify my question, if you convert #9 TSS 374.4 foot-lbs / in2 at 40 yards to foot pounds, that equals 32.1 foot pounds of energy across one square foot.
If you convert #5 lead's 241.3 foot-lbs / in2 at 40 yards, that equals 20.1 foot pounds of energy.
What am I missing?
Think I got this. Penetration energy is given in psi, pounds per square inch, referring to the projectile's sectional density, its actual ability to penetrate. A pellet gun shot at dry wall will penetrate, a spit ball will not. Heavy arrow versus light arrow. All come with trade offs, right? Trajectory, drag, etc.
The higher the psi on this particular table refers to TSS's ability to better conserve its momentum. Hence people's reaction to TSS loads hitting their intended target.
So the higher value of TSS in penetration energy is proportional to its sectional density in comparison to lead. That makes sense. Found an old text discussing artillery, and calculated a projectile's ability to penetrate "layers of iron." Col. Tom Kelly could have answered all this, saved us a bunch of time.
Been an interesting learning experience peeling back the TSS onion.
I was lost on the first chart. :newmascot:
Quote from: paboxcall on July 01, 2020, 08:05:09 PM
Think I got this. Penetration energy is given in psi, pounds per square inch, referring to the projectile's sectional density, its actual ability to penetrate. A pellet gun shot at dry wall will penetrate, a spit ball will not. Heavy arrow versus light arrow. All come with trade offs, right? Trajectory, drag, etc.
The higher the psi on this particular table refers to TSS's ability to better conserve its momentum. Hence people's reaction to TSS loads hitting their intended target.
So the higher value of TSS in penetration energy is proportional to its sectional density in comparison to lead. That makes sense. Found an old text discussing artillery, and calculated a projectile's ability to penetrate "layers of iron." Col. Tom Kelly could have answered all this, saved us a bunch of time.
Been an interesting learning experience peeling back the TSS onion.
Your analogy is off with the pellet and the spitball. In order to make a better analogy, ask what would penetrate drywall better - a 1 ounce ball of rubber or a 1 ounce ball of granite both fired at the same KE out of a barrel
ie faster rubber vs slower granite? Both would have the same weight, but the granite would have a smaller surface area and would penetrate better. Just like my analogy with Karamojo Bell shooting FMJ bullets instead of the soft lead of his era. That was how he could get away with braining elephants with such a small caliber - pentration. I would think a 303 round in FMJ would have a similar ratio to the elephant as a #9 TSS to the turkey. maybe less.
All this arguing though is like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?". It is just abstract. Both pellets, delivered with acceptable pattern at ethical range will absolutely smoke a turkey. A crappy TSS pattern will not outperform an excellent lead pattern, nor will a crappy lead pattern outperform an excellent TSS pattern-in killing turkeys. It just happens that an excellent pattern is easier to get with TSS in sub gauges. I have no idea why anyone would shoot TSS in a 12 gauge personally. If someone wants to, have fun, I certainly do not think it is necessary.
But I have enjoyed the physics and ballistics discussion.
And there it is another WRONG analogy. We are not comparing two projectiles of equal weight we are not comparing two projectiles of equal velocity.
The following in bold below was copied without edits or changes from Apex Ammunition's facebook page. Straight from the actual TSS experts, disagreements with their logic can be taken up with them directly on their webpage :toothy12::
https://www.facebook.com/apexammuntion/posts/a-little-insight-to-tss-its-long-but-worth-the-read-enjoywhile-simple-kinetic-en/1489762124395161/ (https://www.facebook.com/apexammuntion/posts/a-little-insight-to-tss-its-long-but-worth-the-read-enjoywhile-simple-kinetic-en/1489762124395161/)
A little insight to TSS. It's long but worth the read. Enjoy
While simple kinetic energy equation tells us yes mass and velocity are in the equation. Most people don't comprehend Velocity is also exponentially proportional to mass. So exiting the barrel with similar muzzle velocities, any heavier pellet will carry more " kinetic energy."
So if that's the case, let's use #2 steel. Its more than # 4 lead, right? At 3.509 grains it then must be better? This is why most big game bowhunting guides require a certain arrow weight, because a heavier, slightly slower arrow is more lethal than a light fast one. The answer is momentum. It is more important than the flashy, marketed " kinetic energy." However, what the " energy" is actually referred to is knock down power. A common misnomer used in tss.
Shotgunners have two common myths, they think velocity is constant and gravity is negligible. A #9 tss pellet has the same penetration capability as a number 4 lead in ballistics gel at 40 yards. How? We'll lead is a malleable material that deforms on impact. Therefore it creates an uneven surface. It also has more surface area than a #9. BOTH which contribute to the pellet losing velocity.
Since velocity is relative to kinetic energy at an exponential rate, it loses velocity at an exponential rate. Air is actually modeled as a fluid and thus we utilize this to calculate resistance loses. Therefore, because lead has lost so much velocity, it's mass is not relative to the equation as much where as an initial pellet such as 1.2 grains is but has maintained a velocity of 4-500 fps or more at that range. Coupled with its density (which enables it to maintain speed due to momentum which is defined as a subjects ability to impart resistance on an object in motion) and ability to not deform allows it to penetrate to the equivalent of #4 lead at 40 yards (approx 2.5").
As we shoot birds we are not looking to hit muscle and have a lead core "open up" to cause hemorrhage, we are looking for skeletal and nervous system damage. We are looking looking for a material that as the ability to accomplish such in a greater manner and at greater distance if one so chooses.
If none of this which I said is true, then why would we just not use steel in larger pellet sizes then since say it's, possibly cheaper or more environmental friendly? Why do we not shoot #9 lead then? Why does heavyweight 15 not come in number 9? Why does hevi shot not offer their products in 8 and 9? Are the thousands of people who use TSS , even if they don't buy from us, apart of a gimmick? Does the military using tungsten tipped rounds for armor piercing a false way to spend more on ammunition?
No, they are not. Simply put. Material density enables us to utilize a smaller pellet which retains velocity due to momentum (mass times velocity, not to be confused with kinetic energy of mass times velocity squared) and is less susceptible to wind resistance which allows it to have the "same knock down power" or " energy" as people mislabel it as #4 lead in ballistics gel at 40 yards and beyond. Since most ballistics gel is the same relative compatible composition in terms of damage as tissue of animals, it is widely used for testing such as by the FBI for testing.
So, common misnomer as people relate " energy" equivalencies from mere weight and muzzle velocities. A common software used to calculate energy at distances based on density, shot size and velocity, can be purchased from BPI called KPY which we use. Also, I will cite sources below from Tom Roster and Randy Wakeman, two of the most well known and respected shotshell experts today and argue the very same claims I mentioned above.
I assure you this is not a gimmick. Tungsten is considered a "precious metal" on the world market and is marketed as such. If it were cheaper, then every shotshell manufacturer would dabble into it and we would offer our shells the lowest we possibly could. There is a reason Federal wants in the market. Validity always reveals itself. Always.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/KPY-Shotshell-Ballistics-v20-select-CD-or-USB/productinfo/716KPYB/
http://www.randywakeman.com/ShotgunLethalityTablesCommentDiscussionandCriticism%20.htm?fbclid=IwAR3Cd2BySZ4CyJsoIAuHihs6AUsmbNf68OHvCKLaG4vqbmHEuqDrMgmGqkU
https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html?fbclid=IwAR1enwVHUeysRU_7halkNvyp2ULZhEbwLefCM-0h7ariOdIz4GuBzuUGkq0
i don't think I'm smart enough to turkey hunt any longer. 1965 I pull 20 gauge trigger with lead #6's and turkey fall down. Fast forward to 2020, I pull 410 trigger with #9 1/2 TSS and turkey still fall down. I also remember pulling 20 gauge trigger in the 60's with lead #6's and hog run off. In 2020 I pull 410 trigger with #9 1/2 TSS and hog walk in circle 2 or 3 times and fall down. I forget the mathematical reasoning for that. Ok, I never knew the mathematical reason, but I think it may have been covered in this thread. My head hurts :z-dizzy:
When I saw the top of the post were the information that followed came from Apex I stoped right there. Pretty easy to guess what Apex thinks of the only type of shot material they sell?
Even after all these pages of comments no one has been able to prove the claims of #9 TSS vs plain old lead #5?
Quote from: LaLongbeard on July 03, 2020, 06:01:56 PM
When I saw the top of the post were the information that followed came from Apex I stoped right there. Pretty easy to guess what Apex thinks of the only type of shot material they sell?
Even after all these pages of comments no one has been able to prove the claims of #9 TSS vs plain old lead #5?
:TooFunny: :TooFunny:
LOL Guesswho. I ALWAYS like your posts. You are very good at boiling it down to the essentials - which is actually a rare gift.
All these ballistics are for fun. Of course they can be used to figure WHY something happens and why some of these small shots work well in the smaller gauges.
In my muzzleloaders, I have combined #7 Heavyweight (which I got real cheap on sale) and #5 copper coated lead for some crazy good patterns at 35 yards for the TK and 30 for the System1. #5 was okay at 25ish, but the pattern fell off quickly-even just a few yards. The #7s give me just a bit more range. Both birds killed this year though were killed at about 25 and the #5 lead would have likely been okay. I did not use a chrono or anything, just trial and errored a few load and shot combos until I was satisfied. Ballistics let me be confident in the penetration of the #7 HW and the #5 lead, that they would be lethal (and the combo worked fine). Interestingly, the #6 lead alone was not very impressive in either M/L.
Tss 9's weigh about like 7 1/2 lead . Kind of wondering if we might have been missing out all these years?
Also could someone explain why the Tss 9's I've shot out of a few of my guns always hit lower than other loads at 40 yards?
The Tss kill for me just fine ,my guns only do around 225 in the 10" at 40 yards. 20 guage Federal loads.
I thought I somewhat understood the TSS game, but now y'all have me thoroughly confused. LOL
Now I'm thinking the 20 gauge Federal TSS #9 @ 18g/cc do not have any benefit over Federal Heavyweights #7 @ 15g/cc??
Maybe TSS #7 is the way to go?
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Quote from: Gentry on July 08, 2020, 09:58:09 PM
I thought I somewhat understood the TSS game, but now y'all have me thoroughly confused. LOL
Now I'm thinking the 20 gauge Federal TSS #9 @ 18g/cc do not have any benefit over Federal Heavyweights #7 @ 15g/cc??
Maybe TSS #7 is the way to go?
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Pattern density with 9s is the only benefit in my opinion. I shoot the Browning TSS 7x9 shell through my 20 gauge. Averages right around 200 in the 10 @ 40 yards so it suits me fine.
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I'm on the 9-1/2 and 10 bandwagon! Hehehehe
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Quote from: Swampchickin234 on July 09, 2020, 08:11:09 AM
I'm on the 9-1/2 and 10 bandwagon! Hehehehe
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Why ? .410 ?
Quote from: owlhoot on July 09, 2020, 02:45:15 PM
Quote from: Swampchickin234 on July 09, 2020, 08:11:09 AM
I'm on the 9-1/2 and 10 bandwagon! Hehehehe
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Why ? .410 ?
Cause I like pattern density and small gauges. . And regardless of what anyone says or tells you, they knock the snot out of turkeys. I'm not a physics instructor and I do not have a PhD. I do not instruct classes nor pretend to be an expert. I have however seen them in action. Multiple times. And I have plenty of confidence. And I will shoot them as long as it's legal and I can get them because it just tickles my fancy. And it's America!
Hope everyone shoots what shells they want and fills a whole bunch of tags in 21'!
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Quote from: Gentry on July 08, 2020, 09:58:09 PM
I thought I somewhat understood the TSS game, but now y'all have me thoroughly confused. LOL
Now I'm thinking the 20 gauge Federal TSS #9 @ 18g/cc do not have any benefit over Federal Heavyweights #7 @ 15g/cc??
Maybe TSS #7 is the way to go?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Only advantage that I have seen in the Tss 9's is that it was very easy to get 225 in the 10" at 40. The smaller size shot going through a tight choke and the pellet count have to help. The Hw7 for me ,150 took some work. I would expect the same from Tss 7's. Hw7 loads hit hard and slam heads.
I haven't seen the same effect from Tss 9's but they are all dead birds.
Quote from: Swampchickin234 on July 09, 2020, 03:26:42 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on July 09, 2020, 02:45:15 PM
Quote from: Swampchickin234 on July 09, 2020, 08:11:09 AM
I'm on the 9-1/2 and 10 bandwagon! Hehehehe
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why ? .410 ?
Cause I like pattern density and small gauges. . And regardless of what anyone says or tells you, they knock the snot out of turkeys. I'm not a physics instructor and I do not have a PhD. I do not instruct classes nor pretend to be an expert. I have however seen them in action. Multiple times. And I have plenty of confidence. And I will shoot them as long as it's legal and I can get them because it just tickles my fancy. And it's America!
Hope everyone shoots what shells they want and fills a whole bunch of tags in 21'!
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Well that's good. Glad they work . So you have lots of experience with the .410 ? Would like to up the game with mine so would apex 9 1/2 be the way to go?