I found this article and it has some maps with the amount of pines that have been planted since 1980. Part of the article states that by 2020 the amount of timberland will have quadrupled since 1980. Scroll down and study the maps and tell me if you see any link to a decline in your area's population. I'd love to know how many mast trees were cut down during that time period.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/thousands-of-southerners-planted-trees-for-retirement-it-didnt-work-1539095250
Not paying to read it, but here in Georgia, there is no telling how many thousands of acres have been lost to pine plantations. that have hurt both turkeys and deer.
I dunno about this article but...
I have a hunting buddy that is what I consider and expert on turkeys and hunting. He has suggested that there is a link between the age class of the pines and the population in a given area. This is based on 30+ years hunting and observing and many, many miles walked. I have found this same pattern as well once I was aware to look for it.
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Where I hunt in South Carolina most of its pine timber holdings with forest service easements. I think what was said about age class of pines above is important. The young thick plantings I rarely see turkeys using at all, but I see lots of deer using it for cover especially late season after leaf drop when the bucks push into the thickest places they can find. Obviously hardwoods are prettier woods to look at and offer mast but since most are talking about how pines are a detriment to game I'll just toss out a few examples of ways I've seen them using it year after year down there. First and foremost, I think we always want to talk about mast mast mast, acorn acorns acorns, when the reality is that makes up a very small window in an annual diet. Not to say it's not important, obviously it is, but if they lived or died off acorns they'd have to have feed the game for a penny a day commercials running on the TV from mid-November to mid-September.
So a few benefits, one, they tend to burn the pines a lot more than they do the hardwoods where I hunt and they do it late winter / early spring meaning a whole lot of open country for birds come April. If they've just burned the woods you better be in there because I will guarantee those birds will be picking through it like a barbecue. Ask a forester and they'll tell you the same thing. They burn and the birds will be there the next day. I've killed a dozen birds with ash up to their knees. In the months after the burn you get the green up with grass filling the understory. This past year they actually sowed clover in a lot of the burns I hunted and it was gorgeous. The deer and turkey were in heaven with food coming out their ears, likewise good places to hide nests and fawns. The last thing I'll say is, when they log, those first five years after the cut make for some places the turkey and deer love, especially the deer. Lots of new growth, briary browse that holds deer over through winter, bugs and soft greens and nesting cover for turkey and quail. From everything I've read and seen, game thrives in disturbance. With most places being unwilling and/or unable to actively manage forest anymore (for instance in the mountains of North Carolina where I live), active pine offers one of the few places with scheduled and regimented disturbance. Luckily down there where I hunt it's mixed enough too that you still get the hardwoods and pastureland next to the pines. The more diversity in a place the better it seems to be.
I hunt in central South Carolina and have done so since the late 70's. The majority of the land that has not been developed, i.e. interstate highways, housing developments, commercial shopping areas etc. is owned by large timber companies. Pines are the "Money Tree" and on some tracks I currently hunt it is often hard to even find a tree large enough to place a deer stand on. Miles and miles of clear cuts and small pine thickets with hardly a hardwood to be seen. The only hardwoods of any size are found mostly in the creek bottoms where they are either hard to get timber out of or have to be left because of the legal regulations relating to cutting near creeks and sometimes they don't follow these. It's all about the $$$ and although they say they care about the wildlife on their land, the proof is in their actions. Forget about controlled burns and just sit in there and listen for the helicopter coming to spray the newly cut clear cut. Sometimes they do this just
after turkey season when the hens are still nesting. Anything green will soon be brown including small hardwoods. Less hardwoods means less food for deer, turkey and other wildlife. This is just another reason to add to the long list of why we are seeing the population of both species decreasing. In the future, if this continues, the only hardwoods left will be on some private and and State and Federal land. Very sad and I'll now get off my soapbox now.
Not paying either but here's my 2 cents. First this publication is based on trying to help people make money from city folk that have zero experience on this subject and are biased toward this fact. Secondly, I live and hunt in an area that has millions of acres of pine plantations and the wildlife DON"T seem to be hurt at all by this type of farming. Deer and turkeys, thrive in this environment. I have hunted planted pines for 40 years and the habitat is managed with wildlife in mind. Our lease consists of about 4500 acres of planted pines and low swamp areas and Weyerhauser does a great job of creating habitat that supports ALL kinds of wildlife. This post would be extremely long if I described the 30 year progression of pine farming so I would recommend you read up on the benefits. On our lease and surrounding acreage here in Eastern NC, turkey populations have made a Great comeback over the last 20 years and they have plenty of habitat to lay eggs, raise their young (read my post from yesterday, Poults Everywhere this morning) and feed the flock due to planted pines. I would not put a lot of stock in A NEW YORK liberal publication. By the way, our deer season starts the second Saturday in September with archery season, has a 2 1/2 month gun season and a 6 tag season, if you choose to fill those 6 tags, with plenty of HEALTHY deer as well.
Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on June 23, 2020, 08:24:12 AM
Where I hunt in South Carolina most of its pine timber holdings with forest service easements. I think what was said about age class of pines above is important. The young thick plantings I rarely see turkeys using at all, but I see lots of deer using it for cover especially late season after leaf drop when the bucks push into the thickest places they can find. Obviously hardwoods are prettier woods to look at and offer mast but since most are talking about how pines are a detriment to game I'll just toss out a few examples of ways I've seen them using it year after year down there. First and foremost, I think we always want to talk about mast mast mast, acorn acorns acorns, when the reality is that makes up a very small window in an annual diet. Not to say it's not important, obviously it is, but if they lived or died off acorns they'd have to have feed the game for a penny a day commercials running on the TV from mid-November to mid-September.
So a few benefits, one, they tend to burn the pines a lot more than they do the hardwoods where I hunt and they do it late winter / early spring meaning a whole lot of open country for birds come April. If they've just burned the woods you better be in there because I will guarantee those birds will be picking through it like a barbecue. Ask a forester and they'll tell you the same thing. They burn and the birds will be there the next day. I've killed a dozen birds with ash up to their knees. In the months after the burn you get the green up with grass filling the understory. This past year they actually sowed clover in a lot of the burns I hunted and it was gorgeous. The deer and turkey were in heaven with food coming out their ears, likewise good places to hide nests and fawns. The last thing I'll say is, when they log, those first five years after the cut make for some places the turkey and deer love, especially the deer. Lots of new growth, briary browse that holds deer over through winter, bugs and soft greens and nesting cover for turkey and quail. From everything I've read and seen, game thrives in disturbance. With most places being unwilling and/or unable to actively manage forest anymore (for instance in the mountains of North Carolina where I live), active pine offers one of the few places with scheduled and regimented disturbance. Luckily down there where I hunt it's mixed enough too that you still get the hardwoods and pastureland next to the pines. The more diversity in a place the better it seems to be.
Absolutely no question concerning the benefits of appropriately timed controlled burns. Why people can`t understand that is beyond me. California going up in flames every year, if nothing else, should have proven that.
Are some of you guys saying that timber companies burn their pines? I've leased from a timber company for 25 years and they have never burned our pines. I wish they would at least every couple of years, but the one I lease from (actually the third different company) does not control burn.
Quote from: Sixes on June 23, 2020, 08:38:58 AM
Are some of you guys saying that timber companies burn their pines? I've leased from a timber company for 25 years and they have never burned our pines. I wish they would at least every couple of years, but the one I lease from (actually the third different company) does not control burn.
Where I hunt the Forest Service burns the timber company tracts, as well as their own tracts. But it's the Forest Service doing the prescribed burns. Even where I live in the mountains the Forest Service will come out and burn private land for owners of large tracts. One place I hunt up here is 600 acres a buddy owns that they burned about five years ago, all hardwoods and it turned that place into gorgeous, gorgeous woods. The turkeys have loved it.
I know of one place in La I used to hunt often. It is nearly 100% planted pines with just a tiny amount of hardwood along the small creeks. They do not burn this area and it is a jungle of briers and yopon thickets amongst the pines. I've called Gobblers thru areas I wouldn't have thought a rabbit would negotiate. The hog population is as bad as could be and a lot of deer. I doubt a turkey stands a chance of getting a acorn against the competition. Everything would seem to be stacked against turkeys in this area but it has more turkeys than huge areas of National forest with older age pine hardwood mixed habitat. The NF is burned on a regular schedule plenty of hardwoods all thru the area they plant green patches etc. and the turkey population is very low? I don't know what the problem is but it doesn't seem to be planted pines in my area. I've walked thru thousands of acres of NF and not seen a single track or heard a single turkey sound.
I believe that Tom Kelly's 'Hatful of Rabbits' has a quote on the front dust jacket about the fat turkeys from pine plantations must order pizza or something to that effect.
Quote from: greencop01 on June 23, 2020, 03:32:59 PM
I believe that Tom Kelly's 'Hatful of Rabbits' has a quote on the front dust jacket about the fat turkeys from pine plantations must order pizza or something to that effect.
Most folks who make their living working for timber harvesters and pine planters typically take a public stance that is not contradictory to their employment.
Quote from: Sixes on June 22, 2020, 10:49:33 PM
Not paying to read it, but here in Georgia, there is no telling how many thousands of acres have been lost to pine plantations. that have hurt both turkeys and deer.
Same where I hunt in SC. It's either agricultural or forestry. The amount of logging has intensified over the years, and it has impacted the turkeys negatively. Where there were once sprawling woodlands loaded with turkeys, there is now large swaths of young pines with the associated weed growth. Vast areas of what once was prime turkey habitat is now thick, nasty, briars with small pines. Where once squadrons of turkeys roamed, now you barely see a turkey in the vast logged areas.
It's not just coyotes, but also loss of habitat affecting turkey populations.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
I work for a forestry consulting business on the south east and have done various types of forestry work for a longtime. I am in the woods pretty much 6 days a week, most of the time by daylight. The hardwoods being cut is detrimental to the turkey population and pines will forever replace the once natural wood. The "smz" areas around creeks and drains hold the only hardwoods on many of the thousands of acres that we manage in several counties. The turkeys are forced to stay in these smz areas bc the pines are so thick in most cases (either from being young and bushy or briars head high after thinning) and use them as much as possible. Pines can be a suitable habitat but not by choice, they need "transition" zones but hundreds of acres of pine to ten to 15 acres of smz hardwoods is not ideal in the least. Spraying and burning in pines is a great way to make suitable turkey habitat but at 30$ an acre plus firebreaks most ppl scoff at that idea. In my experience the more hardwood a tract has, the more turkeys it has. There needs to be landowner incentives/rewards from the state and government for retaining hardwoods on larger tracts of private property. With the hardwood becoming more and more rare, the price of it is over twice the price of pine logs making it more sought after by mills, timber buyers, and loggers. The hardwood will continue to disappear and be replaced with pine, the population of turkeys will not increase with the amount of hardwood decreasing in my opinion. The only thing we can do is try and manage pine with fire and food plots the best we can.
I have a theory that is based solely on experience in my region, but it goes like this:
Timber harvest methods have dramatically shifted in the past decade or so. In SE Arkansas, the old idea was to thin around 15 years, thing again around 20, thing again at 30, then finally a clear cut (rough numbers).
The shift has become; thin at 12, again at 15, clear at 20. The amount of area has changed dramatically as well. Small tract timber harvests are a thing of the past as timber companies in my area have come and gone. Used to be Georgia Pacific ground everywhere. Now we got Weyerhaeuser, GP, Carter Jones, Potlatch, etc. This has created an effect of over harvesting and large swaths of land where habitat shifts are too overwhelming for nervous animals (i.e. turkey/quail) take flight over fight.
My biggest take away though is that this is only about 25% of the problem with turkey. The other 75% is weather effecting nesting, the natural drop in population after the huge increase in the early 2000s (what goes up must come down), human intervention (probably the least amount of the problem IMO), and predators (2nd lowest impact IMO).
If I had to put a number on biggest impacts:
1. Weather
2. Natural drop
3. Predators
4. Hunan intervention
:z-twocents:
I hunted a wma in Alabama two years ago that was mostly a huge pine farm. They had clear cut a large portion of it, and were still cutting while I was there. I struggled to even see a turkey and the only gobbles I heard we're across the river on private land that hadn't been cut. I talked to several locals and they said the turkey hunting used to be really good. One guy said the birds liked to roost in the mature stands of pine, but there were very few mature pines left, mostly younger ones and clear cut. The only places they didn't cut were the bottoms of the hollows (SMZ). There did seem to be plenty of deer sign, and hogs too. But the turkeys mostly left the area after all the clear cutting.
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Quote from: catman529 on June 24, 2020, 08:13:56 AMOne guy said the birds liked to roost in the mature stands of pine, but there were very few mature pines left, mostly younger ones and clear cut. The only places they didn't cut were the bottoms of the hollows (SMZ). There did seem to be plenty of deer sign, and hogs too. But the turkeys mostly left the area after all the clear cutting.
Same with one of the properties I hunt in SC. Used to be 35 year old pines with hardwood strands snaking through the property, in the transition zones there were even older pines and then the hardwood bottoms. The place was loaded with turkeys. After they logged the pines, you only see the occasional turkey walking the roads.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
Quote from: Spurs on June 24, 2020, 07:26:07 AM
I have a theory that is based solely on experience in my region, but it goes like this:
Timber harvest methods have dramatically shifted in the past decade or so. In SE Arkansas, the old idea was to thin around 15 years, thing again around 20, thing again at 30, then finally a clear cut (rough numbers).
The shift has become; thin at 12, again at 15, clear at 20. The amount of area has changed dramatically as well. Small tract timber harvests are a thing of the past as timber companies in my area have come and gone. Used to be Georgia Pacific ground everywhere. Now we got Weyerhaeuser, GP, Carter Jones, Potlatch, etc. This has created an effect of over harvesting and large swaths of land where habitat shifts are too overwhelming for nervous animals (i.e. turkey/quail) take flight over fight.
My biggest take away though is that this is only about 25% of the problem with turkey. The other 75% is weather effecting nesting, the natural drop in population after the huge increase in the early 2000s (what goes up must come down), human intervention (probably the least amount of the problem IMO), and predators (2nd lowest impact IMO).
If I had to put a number on biggest impacts:
1. Weather
2. Natural drop
3. Predators
4. Hunan intervention
:z-twocents:
So two paragraphs about how timber harvesting negatively effects turkeys and then weather, weather of all things is the number one reason for decline? Turkeys live in various weather climates across country successfully and always have. Predators have always been around. Not trying to argue but I think this is a productive thread and I like hearing different opinions and arguments from all sides. Timber harvesting/monoculture of pine/ human population increase and development, basically habitat loss has to be addressed when discussing a decreasing population while looking at the data collected. timber moguls and companies would probably like to hang me for stating the obvious, even my supervisor and coworkers hate any kind of conservation talk if it involves leaving hardwoods alone.
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Quote from: briton on June 24, 2020, 09:42:51 AM
Quote from: Spurs on June 24, 2020, 07:26:07 AM
I have a theory that is based solely on experience in my region, but it goes like this:
Timber harvest methods have dramatically shifted in the past decade or so. In SE Arkansas, the old idea was to thin around 15 years, thing again around 20, thing again at 30, then finally a clear cut (rough numbers).
The shift has become; thin at 12, again at 15, clear at 20. The amount of area has changed dramatically as well. Small tract timber harvests are a thing of the past as timber companies in my area have come and gone. Used to be Georgia Pacific ground everywhere. Now we got Weyerhaeuser, GP, Carter Jones, Potlatch, etc. This has created an effect of over harvesting and large swaths of land where habitat shifts are too overwhelming for nervous animals (i.e. turkey/quail) take flight over fight.
My biggest take away though is that this is only about 25% of the problem with turkey. The other 75% is weather effecting nesting, the natural drop in population after the huge increase in the early 2000s (what goes up must come down), human intervention (probably the least amount of the problem IMO), and predators (2nd lowest impact IMO).
If I had to put a number on biggest impacts:
1. Weather
2. Natural drop
3. Predators
4. Hunan intervention
:z-twocents:
So two paragraphs about how timber harvesting negatively effects turkeys and then weather, weather of all things is the number one reason for decline? Turkeys live in various weather climates across country successfully and always have. Predators have always been around. Not trying to argue but I think this is a productive thread and I like hearing different opinions and arguments from all sides. Timber harvesting/monoculture of pine/ human population increase and development, basically habitat loss has to be addressed when discussing a decreasing population while looking at the data collected. timber moguls and companies would probably like to hang me for stating the obvious, even my supervisor and coworkers hate any kind of conservation talk if it involves leaving hardwoods alone.
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Exactly, timber harvest methods do have an impact, but I am doubtful they have as much of an impact as many would like to believe.
Take N Arkansas. The timber up there is nearly entirely hardwood forests, very little large scale logging, and the turkey population is the worst seen in over 20 years. Now take the south, where wildlife kinda "got used to" the habitat changing over extended periods, to what is now a dramatic changes in large doses over vast amounts of property.
My point about weather related mainly to my area. We had state wide floods in late spring for about 5 years straight. That was due to record rain fall (I.e. weather) and other related evens (I.e. fast thawing at the mouth of the MS River).
Yea, timber management (human intervention) has it finger in the pie, but not to the extreme people want to make it out to be.
I would love to see more timber companies adopt a more stringent SZM goal to protect out natural drainages, because diversity is always a good thing. I'd also be super pumped if they would begin to allow lease holders to conduct controlled burns (well, pay for a contractor). But I think the entire "all the hardwoods are gone" card is kinda over played.
Here is my 2 cents from my own observations of different properties I have hunted and from managing family property in Alabama.
Diversity is always key. A healthy mix of pines, hardwoods, open ground and all in varying stages yields better turkey numbers.
The biggest thing I have noticed and we have corrected on our property is fragmented habitat.
Years ago, we had an 80 acre block of mature, swampy hardwoods that was some of the best I've ever hunted. This particular block essentially connected 2 or more larger blocks of 'turkey woods'. This block got clearcut and was not replanted, essentially growing up into a swampy briar thicket for 20+ years. Turkeys still don't use this block. Turkey numbers plummeted without any other major change in the landscape. We were left with small sections or pockets of 'turkey woods' that were beautiful, but did not hold turkeys. Spring after spring we scratched our heads wondering why we never heard any birds in these places. Finally, after years of thinking on it, I came up with this.
Turkeys like to roam. Turkeys avoid predators and areas where they are susceptible to them. As I started studying satellite imagery, I noticed that turkeys had no easy and SAFE way to access these particular sections or pockets of 'turkey woods'. Turkeys don't like walking down 'death tunnels' that are barely big enough for an ATV where they can be easily ambushed by a predator, but will readily move down wide roads. They needed access to these isolated pockets of 'turkey woods'. So we started creating and maintaining travel corridors for turkeys to move to and from these different pockets of 'turkey woods'. We created these through specific logging requests, widening roads, and land clearing with a bulldozer. These corridors are maintained by bush hogging or fire now.
Since we have connected all of our 'turkey woods' pockets or sections, number have gone back up, in these once vacant pockets, in particular. This was also combined with trapping nest predators and routine burns. Our ultimate goal for our property is to have diversity, but maintain a landscape that can always be navigated by turkeys by having 2 or more travel routes available to them to move from this section to that section. This results in our planted pines being slightly more fragmented than they were originally, but it isn't a drastic change. Every decision we make about timber harvest is made with turkeys in mind and how it will affect them and the landscape they inhabit. I realize not everyone has property that they can manage or make decisions on, but these are simply my own observations.
The takeaway is that turkeys need and want space to roam and need to be able to do so freely and safely. If you are able, open up some wide travel corridors between 'turkey woods' and they will use them.
THIS, what panalap said! Yes turkeys will leave areas that have been clear cut for a short period of time. As soon as the pines are replanted and the young brush and grass returns, the turkeys will return to feed just like the deer and other wildlife. I'm not sure what hardwoods play into the equation as some have stated but turkeys find plenty to eat and will roost in pines as small as 10-15 feet. They will use roads for strut zones and move from sections of woods to section of woods. Most plantations are selective thinned which opens the understory allowing more open areas, so scouting birds is your friend. Hens choose very thick areas to lay eggs, which leads to better hatches. Many of us plant food plots that gives hens and poults bugging opportunities. IMO pine plantations aren't a problem with declining populations. They are tough to hunt but you have to put in some leg work, know where the birds are and where they want to go.
Sorry guys here's the maps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1SH5x31/3-F5-C1-DCE-9-C54-494-D-8-AEE-BA8768-E04-D2-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8fRbxqWg)anonymous pictures website (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjY0C0tC/5170-E945-D27-C-4610-9251-98-B03-C54-CAE5.png) (https://postimg.cc/9r1dTPYb)lightshot (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbTFPBpw/2-A71-F600-E679-4-DA4-99-AE-5548-CB6-D4-EEE.png) (https://postimg.cc/879tJBT3)
This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO. Timber Harvest.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on June 25, 2020, 12:58:16 PM
This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO. Timber Harvest.
Then why the exponential increase of birds through the 90s and early 2000s as timber harvest increased? And why the similar decline in places like western North Carolina where there's been no timber harvest to speak of, particularly pines, in any of that timeframe? I'm not saying I don't think it's played a role. I do. But I don't know that I believe it's the biggest cause of decline.
Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on June 25, 2020, 01:32:53 PM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on June 25, 2020, 12:58:16 PM
This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO. Timber Harvest.
Then why the exponential increase of birds through the 90s and early 2000s as timber harvest increased? And why the similar decline in places like western North Carolina where there's been no timber harvest to speak of, particularly pines, in any of that timeframe? I'm not saying I don't think it's played a role. I do. But I don't know that I believe it's the biggest cause of decline.
I couldn't say for sure, but I would suspect the problems created by timber management practices are a function of the intensity of those programs (as shown on the maps). The more timber companies move towards monocultural practices without regard for maintaining habitat conditions for wildlife, the more that wildlife is unable to survive there.
The basic tenet of wildlife management is "food, water, cover". If any of those things is missing (or, in this case, removed through increasingly intense timber practices) wildlife is going to suffer. Yes, turkeys can survive on wisely-managed timber operations,....operations that understand that they have to leave enough suitable habitat on the landscape for wildlife to have something to eat.
I suspect there is a direct correlation between turkey numbers and the availability of adequate food sources on those high-intensity, monocultural timber tracts. I would also suspect that correlation is a function of the timber companies owner/manager's concern for wildlife as opposed to putting dollars in their pockets.
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 25, 2020, 04:57:06 PM
Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on June 25, 2020, 01:32:53 PM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on June 25, 2020, 12:58:16 PM
This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO. Timber Harvest.
Then why the exponential increase of birds through the 90s and early 2000s as timber harvest increased? And why the similar decline in places like western North Carolina where there's been no timber harvest to speak of, particularly pines, in any of that timeframe? I'm not saying I don't think it's played a role. I do. But I don't know that I believe it's the biggest cause of decline.
I couldn't say for sure, but I would suspect the problems created by timber management practices are a function of the intensity of those programs (as shown on the maps). The more timber companies move towards monocultural practices without regard for maintaining habitat conditions for wildlife, the more that wildlife is unable to survive there.
The basic tenet of wildlife management is "food, water, cover". If any of those things is missing (or, in this case, removed through increasingly intense timber practices) wildlife is going to suffer. Yes, turkeys can survive on wisely-managed timber operations,....operations that understand that they have to leave enough suitable habitat on the landscape for wildlife to have something to eat.
I suspect there is a direct correlation between turkey numbers and the availability of adequate food sources on those high-intensity, monocultural timber tracts. I would also suspect that correlation is a function of the timber companies owner/manager's concern for wildlife as opposed to putting dollars in their pockets.
That makes sense, but again it does not account for the same declines being experienced in areas that have zero timber harvest, specifically pines. And in areas that have been in heavy monocultural pine rotation since the 70s, those places saw bird numbers shoot up, stabilize, and now decline in habitat that's changed very little. Trying not to tie into another thread, but some things you said in the NWTF thread carry over here in that much of the problems with this particular type of farming could be addressed with dollars and volunteerism from that group. At one point in this thread people talked about fire for instance and that it became cost prohibitive for the land owners to do it. If it's good for birds I know a group with a whole lot of money that could fund some of that burning.
If this article and graphs had any validity then Eastern NC wouldn't have a single turkey. I didn't get interested in turkey hunting until turkeys were reintroduced here in the 90's. I actually started hunting them in 2007 and harvested my first Eastern in the spring of 2009. What most of you don't understand, mature pines are harvested on a rotational basis of between 25 to 30 years with trees being thinned (for pulp and OSB) about every 8 to 10 years. Our 4500 acres, mostly pines with some mixed hardwoods in the swampy areas, are broken up into many smaller tracts, planted, thinned and harvested at different times during that 30 year cycle. All Wildlife thrive in this environment. Deer, turkey, bear, bobcat, coyotes, raccoon, hawks, etc, all have their place in the pines. I'll leave each of you with this, I have been hunting this particular lease for 15 years now. When I started hunting turkeys in 2007, our lease had a few pockets of turkeys here and there. Thirteen years later, our turkey population on our lease and in Eastern NC has made a dramatic increase in population with many more turkey sightings throughout.
From my own experience, areas with well-managed (burned on a set schedule/rotation) pines can be very productive areas for turkey and provide pretty good hunting. On the flip side, I've hunted some predominantly pine areas that weren't burned and/or managed for wildlife and the results were in line with that.
There's never been a hunting place more devoid of deer than a large mature forest, whitetails and I assume other animals (turkeys) usually benefit from mans manipulation of the forest; as long as they're not turning it into a shopping plaza or housing development its usually beneficial. It would be nice if they left a few more oaks though.
Quote from: Southerngobbler on June 25, 2020, 10:35:11 PM
There's never been a hunting place more devoid of deer than a large mature forest, whitetails and I assume other animals (turkeys) usually benefit from mans manipulation of the forest; as long as they're not turning it into a shopping plaza or housing development its usually beneficial. It would be nice if they left a few more oaks though.
Deer are very adaptable and love human altered habitat, but I think the extensive logging on Alabama WMAs has hurt the turkeys in many areas from what I've seen and heard. Not sure if it's the same on private tree farms or not.
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I have had very similar experiences to Panola. We have the luxury to manage how we want unlike many people with leases. Diversity is the key as far as I can tell. I almost ran over some chicks yesterday that couldn't even fly they were so small. These chicks are living in a 12 year old pine plantation. The difference in it and many others is that it had a slow, backing fire run through it in April.
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 25, 2020, 04:57:06 PM
Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on June 25, 2020, 01:32:53 PM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on June 25, 2020, 12:58:16 PM
This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO. Timber Harvest.
Then why the exponential increase of birds through the 90s and early 2000s as timber harvest increased? And why the similar decline in places like western North Carolina where there's been no timber harvest to speak of, particularly pines, in any of that timeframe? I'm not saying I don't think it's played a role. I do. But I don't know that I believe it's the biggest cause of decline.
I agree. I live in the pine timber country of E. Texas. My county and the county I hunt are in the darkest green on those maps, indicating high levels of pine timber. The companies have created a pine monoculture for the most part. SMZ's mean little to them, if they can get to it, the cut it. Easterns have not done well here, it's been an ongoing issue for 20 years or more. I can't help but think it's partly the timber management practices and a heavy population of wild pigs who destroy nests and habitat.
I couldn't say for sure, but I would suspect the problems created by timber management practices are a function of the intensity of those programs (as shown on the maps). The more timber companies move towards monocultural practices without regard for maintaining habitat conditions for wildlife, the more that wildlife is unable to survive there.
The basic tenet of wildlife management is "food, water, cover". If any of those things is missing (or, in this case, removed through increasingly intense timber practices) wildlife is going to suffer. Yes, turkeys can survive on wisely-managed timber operations,....operations that understand that they have to leave enough suitable habitat on the landscape for wildlife to have something to eat.
I suspect there is a direct correlation between turkey numbers and the availability of adequate food sources on those high-intensity, monocultural timber tracts. I would also suspect that correlation is a function of the timber companies owner/manager's concern for wildlife as opposed to putting dollars in their pockets.
I hunted planted pines in Wisconsin this past spring, initially avoided those areas when I got there, soon found out birds were in the pines.
They definitely preferred a certain age pine stand and also like it butting to hardwood, but it was primarily pine and there were lots of birds!
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