Silly I know but man if I am spending the money on a top of the line Benelli, Beretta or Browning I'd like to have one that actually shot a true POA and POI. I was looking at the SBE3 and know a few duck hunters that use them. They are spending $1,700 on a shotgun that doesn't hit where they are aiming ( I don't think they are lousy shots like I tell them). This kinda scares me since I may be in the market for a top of the line sorta do all shotgun in the summer. I was looking mainly at the above mentioned manufacturers.
I guess my question is are there any guns/manufactures that give you a better chance after spending that kind of money and having the gun hit where you aim without having to red dot it???
The Benelli line of shotguns, believe it or not, weren't made with the turkey hunter in mind. They're designed to be flushing guns, shooting poi where the bird would be flushing either away or to the shooter. Most of them shoot between 6 and 10 inches higher than poa and this is normal.
IMO...single shots and maybe one of the barrels of an over/under are the closest thing to that. And, coupled with a red dot or adjustable rear sights provide the most consistent shot to shot performance. That said, you can expect differences between loads with most all guns.
Quote from: Spurs Up on March 06, 2020, 09:08:23 PM
IMO...single shots and maybe one of the barrels of an over/under are the closest thing to that. And, coupled with a red dot or adjustable rear sights provide the most consistent shot to shot performance. That said, you can expect differences between loads with most all guns.
Doubled barreled guns have both barrels off but intercepting at one point. Hopefully they overlap enough and normally do but true poa they're not in either barrel.
To the op now you can shoot 10 dif loads and get 10 dif results. You need most often sights. If it's a turkey gun you're sweating something you need not to.
Best I can describe it is a rifle. Imagine you sight the rifle in. Most folks know it's not there forever, you switch ammo and you need to resight the in cause poi moves. Even changing primers, adjusting seating depth, overall length, dif brass, powder, etc all could/most likely would change poi. Certainly it would with a change of ammo in general
Look at a shotgun as a "single projectile" type weapon. No gun will shoot every load, especially with every choke, certainly if it's a tight extra full turkey choke the same place with your changes. Hope this made sense.
I spoke with a fellow the other day who is in charge of hunter ed in my state. I told him this may be one area many don't understand. We need to incorporate this discussion in our upcoming classes imo.
From what I've seen over/unders are the worst, one if not both barrels will be off. Doesn't matter much with sporting Clay's chokes as the patterns are more open and cover there faults. Turkey chokes in an over/under will exaggerate the fact it doesn't shoot where your aiming. I rabbit hunt with a Steven's 555 28 gauge with a modified choke and lead 6's its killed a pile. Full choke and tss shows that both barrels are off 6-8" one is low one is left.
My beretta shoots high as others have mentioned I believe the European guns come from the factory setup that way. 70/30 or 80/20 patterns are common.
The two brands that shoot the straightest for me have been cheap pumps. Mossberg and Remington are American made and set from the factory to shoot 50/50 patterns.
Ithaca Model 37...
Very true bore...
I haven't heard much on Remingtons or Mossbergs bad for Poa/Poi.
Benellis on the other hand while your picking up your new gun just go ahead and grab some kind of sight.(scope/red dot) and be done with it. Lol... I wont buy another one for turkeys. Way to finicky for my liking.
You can change Poa/Poi by changing chokes and or shells in them. I've done alot of cussing and spending money on them over the years getting them to shoot where I want or real close without using add on sighting devices.
Someone posted quite sometime ago on a gunsmith that was good on slightly bending the barrel and then they'd shoot poa/poi. He was supposed to give the guys name up,but I don't know whatever became of it.
I basically leave mine in the gun safe and just grab my Encore.
Quote from: jrmcclure on March 06, 2020, 11:20:16 PM
From what I've seen over/unders are the worst, one if not both barrels will be off. Doesn't matter much with sporting Clay's chokes as the patterns are more open and cover there faults. Turkey chokes in an over/under will exaggerate the fact it doesn't shoot where your aiming. I rabbit hunt with a Steven's 555 28 gauge with a modified choke and lead 6's its killed a pile. Full choke and tss shows that both barrels are off 6-8" one is low one is left.
My beretta shoots high as others have mentioned I believe the European guns come from the factory setup that way. 70/30 or 80/20 patterns are common.
The two brands that shoot the straightest for me have been cheap pumps. Mossberg and Remington are American made and set from the factory to shoot 50/50 patterns.
Cheap double guns are horrendous. Good ones are worked to be on. That's part of price difference. Top barrel and bottom barrel on ou are made to hit same/similar poi at a certain yardage. It's impossible to get em exact all ranges
Quote from: mightyjoeyoung on March 06, 2020, 09:00:29 PM
The Benelli line of shotguns, believe it or not, weren't made with the turkey hunter in mind. They're designed to be flushing guns, shooting poi where the bird would be flushing either away or to the shooter. Most of them shoot between 6 and 10 inches higher than poa and this is normal.
Has this been "offcially" stated by Benelli about the intended use and POI/POA? I only ask because this seems pretty significant.
Quote from: mudhen on March 06, 2020, 11:45:01 PM
Ithaca Model 37...
Very true bore...
Correct me if I am wrong (which happens a lot) but, aren't Ithaca's receivers and barrels one piece? I have always wanted to get my hands on a turkeyslayer model. No one I know has ever had or even seen one unfortunately.
Had a Mossberg that shot a foot and a half high, thats when I started using scopes.
Great conversation. We are all noticing this subject with the development of these new loads. I have 2 Super black eagles. I use one for waterfowl, and have the Steady grip model for Turkey. PS, got them when they first came out, sub 1000 bucks. They have a pretty good POI. My eyes are not what they used to be, so I have optics on my turkey guns. Pretty much guarantees center shot with consistent loads. I know that people that do not want optics can add a mid barrel 2nd bead if the gun only has one. That helps getting the shooting plane more lined with the barrel. Great subject, very informative. Be safe, good luck...
Quote from: Gutsdozer on March 07, 2020, 06:11:48 AM
Quote from: mightyjoeyoung on March 06, 2020, 09:00:29 PM
The Benelli line of shotguns, believe it or not, weren't made with the turkey hunter in mind. They're designed to be flushing guns, shooting poi where the bird would be flushing either away or to the shooter. Most of them shoot between 6 and 10 inches higher than poa and this is normal.
Has this been "offcially" stated by Benelli about the intended use and POI/POA? I only ask because this seems pretty significant.
This has been a prominent subject on Shotgun World (great web site for all things shotgun). The SBE III is designed to shoot high apparently as opposed to the SBE II.
Quote from: Gutsdozer on March 07, 2020, 06:18:19 AM
Quote from: mudhen on March 06, 2020, 11:45:01 PM
Ithaca Model 37...
Very true bore...
Correct me if I am wrong (which happens a lot) but, aren't Ithaca's receivers and barrels one piece? I have always wanted to get my hands on a turkeyslayer model. No one I know has ever had or even seen one unfortunately.
One piece
The best POA/POIs I've owned were older remingtons and usually 870s. Have had 2 newer 20ga 1187s that both shot below the bead with rib leveled. Mention this issue with wing and clay shooters and you will get a tirade about gun fitment. Maybe it's just me but a gun should shoot 50/50 or 60/40 with the rib leveled and bead on target. I have an assortment of shotguns and like some of them capable of hunting both turkeys and other stuff without the need to install sights.
Quote from: THattaway on March 07, 2020, 07:55:04 AM
The best POA/POIs I've owned were older remingtons and usually 870s. Have had 2 newer 20ga 1187s that both shot below the bead with rib leveled. Mention this issue with wing and clay shooters and you will get a tirade about gun fitment. Maybe it's just me but a gun should shoot 50/50 or 60/40 with the rib leveled and bead on target. I have an assortment of shotguns and like some of them capable of hunting both turkeys and other stuff without the need to install sights.
That's old school mentality and I'd say more old school probable. A looser load used to sometimes to mostly be doable. W today's loads/chokes it's not as probable especially when you change things up.
Even back in the 80s-90s I was putting sights on a gun sometimes as it needed it. Seems nowadays most need it. For 30 years though I used the same gun w a bead sight n the Winchester supremes. The minute that very same gun (an 835 ulti mag) tried longbeards I had to sight gun, never changed anything else. Same choke (not overly tight), same gun. Why the change??? It's not about just the gun, after 30 years it became problematic? Not true.
It's what I stated earlier. Dif things affect poi. Never just a gun. Read my post about rifles. Ask anyone shooting a single projectable gun if poi move? They do. We're trying to send a real tight pattern most often down range. Think along different lines yet anything is possible. Things change most often.
Now gun fitment is not a tirade. That's why I'm against youth guns by adults. It is possible in this sport though
Amen my friend. Good info....
Best thing you could do is either buy one and start working on it with different ammo or let a gun Smith correct poi, if it's off..
Or the route I tend to take is buy, sell, and trade. I buy used at a decent price try a couple loads and chokes through it. If I'm happy and it shoots poa/poi it stays. If I'm not happy or it doesn't perform the way I want it gets sold or traded at similar prices I paid for it and im not out much except time and shells. Might have to buy 4-5 before you luck into a really good one that clearly preforms.
I recently had to get rid of a yildiz single shot. Over 13" off at 30 yards and wasn't worth the hassle to try and fix it.
Quote from: Gutsdozer on March 07, 2020, 06:11:48 AM
Quote from: mightyjoeyoung on March 06, 2020, 09:00:29 PM
The Benelli line of shotguns, believe it or not, weren't made with the turkey hunter in mind. They're designed to be flushing guns, shooting poi where the bird would be flushing either away or to the shooter. Most of them shoot between 6 and 10 inches higher than poa and this is normal.
Has this been "offcially" stated by Benelli about the intended use and POI/POA? I only ask because this seems pretty significant.
Well, I sold them for about 10 years and own one. It's been long their standard to have a high, flushing pattern or 70/30. It can be adjusted out to some extent, but too far and you affect fit.
Most Benelli models have a ramped rib. It tapers up from muzzle to breach. If you line up the beads and aim it like a rifle like we do in turkey hunting, it will pattern high vs the point of aim. My vinci will shoot almost dead on at 40 yards with a 3mm Champion Easy hit front bead with a certain choke and load. I do run an optic on it for turkey hunting though to eliminate any variables. My son has an sbe3 that shoots a little high for him, maybe 4"? It shot about 2" high for me. This was with a couple of Longbeard 3" 5s through a kicks .665 gobbling thunder at 30 yards. We were patterning steel shot waterfowl loads that day and i had a few of the longbeards to try out just to see what it would do.For all the shotguns i have owned over the years, i only remember 2 that shot dead on for me, an old 870 with a 28" barrel and a old single shot stevens 16 gauge that was my dad's.
Quote from: mightyjoeyoung on March 07, 2020, 09:54:56 AM
Quote from: Gutsdozer on March 07, 2020, 06:11:48 AM
Quote from: mightyjoeyoung on March 06, 2020, 09:00:29 PM
The Benelli line of shotguns, believe it or not, weren't made with the turkey hunter in mind. They're designed to be flushing guns, shooting poi where the bird would be flushing either away or to the shooter. Most of them shoot between 6 and 10 inches higher than poa and this is normal.
Has this been "offcially" stated by Benelli about the intended use and POI/POA? I only ask because this seems pretty significant.
Well, I sold them for about 10 years and own one. It's been long their standard to have a high, flushing pattern or 70/30. It can be adjusted out to some extent, but too far and you affect fit.
Sounds like you had or have a shop? What do you prefer to shoot as a good do all shot gun of the ones mentioned? I keep referring to the big 3 since they seem to be on the higher end of what I want out of a shotgun.
Quote from: Bowguy on March 07, 2020, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: THattaway on March 07, 2020, 07:55:04 AM
The best POA/POIs I've owned were older remingtons and usually 870s. Have had 2 newer 20ga 1187s that both shot below the bead with rib leveled. Mention this issue with wing and clay shooters and you will get a tirade about gun fitment. Maybe it's just me but a gun should shoot 50/50 or 60/40 with the rib leveled and bead on target. I have an assortment of shotguns and like some of them capable of hunting both turkeys and other stuff without the need to install sights.
That's old school mentality and I'd say more old school probable. A looser load used to sometimes to mostly be doable. W today's loads/chokes it's not as probable especially when you change things up.
Even back in the 80s-90s I was putting sights on a gun sometimes as it needed it. Seems nowadays most need it. For 30 years though I used the same gun w a bead sight n the Winchester supremes. The minute that very same gun (an 835 ulti mag) tried longbeards I had to sight gun, never changed anything else. Same choke (not overly tight), same gun. Why the change??? It's not about just the gun, after 30 years it became problematic? Not true.
It's what I stated earlier. Dif things affect poi. Never just a gun. Read my post about rifles. Ask anyone shooting a single projectable gun if poi move? They do. We're trying to send a real tight pattern most often down range. Think along different lines yet anything is possible. Things change most often.
Now gun fitment is not a tirade. That's why I'm against youth guns by adults. It is possible in this sport though
You read into my comments what you wanted. When you pattern a gun with a variety of chokes and a variety of loads and it consistently shoots low below the beads or left or right, and you are lining up everything centered paying attention to a rear reference (center of rib, leveled) then I think it's safe to say it's the gun. Gun fitment be damned. So you are faced with one of two choices, live with it and get sights or find another gun. I've patterned enough to have a little experience with both old loads and new. Thanks and have a great spring.
My 870 Wingmaster has been putting the shot at poa/poi since it was made in the 1960's. Every Wingmaster I've owned did the same. There may be up and down variations but the pattern was centered never off to one side or the other. You have to decide which load /shot size you'll hunt with and figure out where to hold. The reason all the shotguns sold today hit all over the place is that people will keep buying them. In the 1960's if someone sold a shotgun that did not hit were it was aimed they would have went bankrupt, no one in their right mind would buy a crooked shooting shotgun. Nowadays manufacturers know people will gladly buy a 1500$ shotgun then spend another 100$-500$ on an aftermarket sight so why bother. I've known one person that had trouble with his Wingmaster and Federals flight control wads but any other regular shot was fine including Nitro, and Apex TSS.
The 870 Express is famous for random patterns mostly crooked choke tube threads. I've seen one that Sumtoy cut and rechoked that shot straight as mine, the choke was crooked from factory.
You have to decide if you want the latest plastic Chinese made wonder gun or a dependable American made shotgun that shoots were the bead points.
Quote from: THattaway on March 09, 2020, 11:22:53 AM
Quote from: Bowguy on March 07, 2020, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: THattaway on March 07, 2020, 07:55:04 AM
The best POA/POIs I've owned were older remingtons and usually 870s. Have had 2 newer 20ga 1187s that both shot below the bead with rib leveled. Mention this issue with wing and clay shooters and you will get a tirade about gun fitment. Maybe it's just me but a gun should shoot 50/50 or 60/40 with the rib leveled and bead on target. I have an assortment of shotguns and like some of them capable of hunting both turkeys and other stuff without the need to install sights.
That's old school mentality and I'd say more old school probable. A looser load used to sometimes to mostly be doable. W today's loads/chokes it's not as probable especially when you change things up.
Even back in the 80s-90s I was putting sights on a gun sometimes as it needed it. Seems nowadays most need it. For 30 years though I used the same gun w a bead sight n the Winchester supremes. The minute that very same gun (an 835 ulti mag) tried longbeards I had to sight gun, never changed anything else. Same choke (not overly tight), same gun. Why the change??? It's not about just the gun, after 30 years it became problematic? Not true.
It's what I stated earlier. Dif things affect poi. Never just a gun. Read my post about rifles. Ask anyone shooting a single projectable gun if poi move? They do. We're trying to send a real tight pattern most often down range. Think along different lines yet anything is possible. Things change most often.
Now gun fitment is not a tirade. That's why I'm against youth guns by adults. It is possible in this sport though
You read into my comments what you wanted. When you pattern a gun with a variety of chokes and a variety of loads and it consistently shoots low below the beads or left or right, and you are lining up everything centered paying attention to a rear reference (center of rib, leveled) then I think it's safe to say it's the gun. Gun fitment be damned. So you are faced with one of two choices, live with it and get sights or find another gun. I've patterned enough to have a little experience with both old loads and new. Thanks and have a great spring.
I didn't read anything into you wrote I wanted. Was giving the op different and imo much more accurate information. Now if as you said a gun is really off I'd sell it too but realize guns shoot different w dif loads.
If you have a prob w gun fitment so be it but it can't be denied. Some guys will never know what they don't know.
Great thing about forums many guys have dif ideas and someone ignorant to it all could benefit.
I suspect a lot of patterning problems with modern guns are due to variances with screw in chokes. In my experience a shotgun that shoots true usually shoots true with most anything you feed through it. I've polished Winchesters and Remingtons to find it trued up the barrel to the beads. Those tended to have rough tool marked barrels to start with.
I love my plastic wonder gun, but its made in Italy, not china. And i wouldn't trade it for anything.
I agree with Thattaway in that with an interchangeable choke system you have a lot of variables that can affect poi/poa. On interchangeable barrel guns, you also have the mag tube/barrel/ receiver fit. With all this critical fitting, it's a miracle of machining that guns shoot as close to poa that they do.
The Ithaca turkey guns have barrels made to the receiver, but regular Ithaca 37s the barrels thread in similar to rifle barrel with just a half twist. It helps to make a nice consistent lock up. All mine shoot point of impact point of aim
I pattern a lot of guns every year and can tell you from experience it's purely a gamble to get one of any make that will shoot a turkey load/choke true to bead. While many claim certain guns are meant to shoot high, even some of them shoot dead on at times. The most consistently true shotguns for me has been Remington, but OTOH I've also seen a bunch of them that were off as well. More times than not it boils down to either an nonconcentric choke bore, the choke itself, or a barrel that is not straight with the receiver.
I don't consider shooting high to be a problem, unless your talking about a foot or more. Centered pattern is what I want if I have to hold a couple inches low I'm not putting a scope on my gun for that. You can try different loads and they may get the elevation closer or maybe #4s instead of #6 but if your gun is shooting high and 8" left or vice verse you have a crooked choke bent barrel or a piece of crap. Some of the very best poa/poi Guns were the fixed choke Remingtons, before we realized we needed a softball size pattern to kill a turkey at 30 yards?
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 12, 2020, 07:18:52 PM
Some of the very best poa/poi Guns were the fixed choke Remingtons, before we realized we needed a softball size pattern to kill a turkey at 30 yards?
......and realized we "need" camo guns, a camo costume, a camo face mask and 3 1/2" bone crushers. I guess Pop was a better hunter than us with his full choked 2 3/4" gun.
Quote from: longislandloco on March 12, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 12, 2020, 07:18:52 PM
Some of the very best poa/poi Guns were the fixed choke Remingtons, before we realized we needed a softball size pattern to kill a turkey at 30 yards?
......and realized we "need" camo guns, a camo costume, a camo face mask and 3 1/2" bone crushers. I guess Pop was a better hunter than us with his full choked 2 3/4" gun.
Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?
I have a CZ Swamp Magnum O/U that has a great POA/POI with the bottom barrel. The top barrel shoots a bit high, so I use a more open choke/load combo in that one for the close up engagement and my POA is just above the wattles.
My best aligned POA/POI shotgun overall is my 1980's Mossberg 500A. It's shooting my turkey loads lights out with the bead sights. Otherwise I'd have to say that I had an 1187 Supermag that was pretty much spot-on as well.
Quote from: the Ward on March 13, 2020, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: longislandloco on March 12, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 12, 2020, 07:18:52 PM
Some of the very best poa/poi Guns were the fixed choke Remingtons, before we realized we needed a softball size pattern to kill a turkey at 30 yards?
......and realized we "need" camo guns, a camo costume, a camo face mask and 3 1/2" bone crushers. I guess Pop was a better hunter than us with his full choked 2 3/4" gun.
Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?
My only point was it's not gospel what you use...........enjoy your season!
I've got two 11-87s; one 12 gauge and one 20 gauge. Both have true POA/POI
Quote from: the Ward on March 13, 2020, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: longislandloco on March 12, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 12, 2020, 07:18:52 PM
.
Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?
Very few. A good double was/is always more expensive than any other action type. Anyone that had a good double would not have switched to a cheaper pump, any that did were too pore to have a good double in the first place. The uncontrollable urge to buy the latest fad is a new human condition. In the old days you bought the best you could afford and became proficient with it from repeated use. The disposable shotgun did not exist as it does today.
Never had any problems with super x2 or x3. The Winchester's I've shot have been right on. My SB 2 is also good on POI. It's deadly with 640 constriction an the old Federal 7's..
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 13, 2020, 07:54:23 PM
Quote from: the Ward on March 13, 2020, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: longislandloco on March 12, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 12, 2020, 07:18:52 PM
.
Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?
Very few. A good double was/is always more expensive than any other action type. Anyone that had a good double would not have switched to a cheaper pump, any that did were too pore to have a good double in the first place. The uncontrollable urge to buy the latest fad is a new human condition. In the old days you bought the best you could afford and became proficient with it from repeated use. The disposable shotgun did not exist as it does today.
Most people in those days readily embraced advancements in firearms technology. A5's, model 97's and model 12's, and a little later on, model 870's and 1100's were sold in the 10's of millions. Those were not disposable nor cheap guns for their respective eras, or today for that matter. Don't get me wrong, lots of double barrels, both well made and inexpensive, were used and treasured by their owners. But they rapidly lost ground to the new autos and pumps in sales, particularly post ww2.
Steel shot regulations put a good dent in the use of those old doubles and model 12's also.
It sure did! It's a shame too. They have bismuth loads that are safe for old guns, but they are not cheap.I picked up a few boxes to try out of an old savage 311 i have. Going to take the old girl to stretch her legs on a proper waterfowl hunt next year.
Quote from: the Ward on March 13, 2020, 10:51:38 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 13, 2020, 07:54:23 PM
Quote from: the Ward on March 13, 2020, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: longislandloco on March 12, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 12, 2020, 07:18:52 PM
.
Don't kid yourself, old pops would have had that stuff had it existed then. How many old timers tossed aside their double guns in favor of those new fangled pumps and autoloaders when they became available?
Very few. A good double was/is always more expensive than any other action type. Anyone that had a good double would not have switched to a cheaper pump, any that did were too pore to have a good double in the first place. The uncontrollable urge to buy the latest fad is a new human condition. In the old days you bought the best you could afford and became proficient with it from repeated use. The disposable shotgun did not exist as it does today.
Most people in those days readily embraced advancements in firearms technology. A5's, model 97's and model 12's, and a little later on, model 870's and 1100's were sold in the 10's of millions. Those were not disposable nor cheap guns for their respective eras, or today for that matter. Don't get me wrong, lots of double barrels, both well made and inexpensive, were used and treasured by their owners. But they rapidly lost ground to the new autos and pumps in sales, particularly post ww2.
You quoted it but did you read it? The disposable guns I'm talking about are the cheap plastic crooked shooting crap made today. No one bought a model 12 because it was an advancement they bought it because it was 1/4 the price of a model 21. It took a couple generations to forget about the double and it was all $$ not advancements that made people buy a pump.
Yes i did read the quote. I was discussing the move from doubles to autos and pumps, by prior generations. I did not mention plastic disposable guns, and that was not in the quote i was discussing. That was in one of your previous posts, which i did not quote.Yes, people have always bought what they could afford, but they also bought the guns that they wanted, too. I am only pointing out that hunters did not ignore advancements in firearm design, as witnessed by the huge rise in popularity in auto and pump shotguns when they became commercially available. I guess this thread is starting to go off topic and we probably should return it to the O.P.s original subject.
Quote from: the Ward on March 13, 2020, 11:59:12 PM
Yes i did read the quote. I was discussing the move from doubles to autos and pumps, by prior generations. I did not mention plastic disposable guns, and that was not in the quote i was discussing. That was in one of your previous posts, which i did not quote.Yes, people have always bought what they could afford, but they also bought the guns that they wanted, too. I am only pointing out that hunters did not ignore advancements in firearm design, as witnessed by the huge rise in popularity in auto and pump shotguns when they became commercially available. I guess this thread is starting to go off topic and we probably should return it to the O.P.s original subject.
Definitely off the original topic. But the move to pumps and autos was not because they were in anyway an advancement. If you've ever shot a Purdey double, not the Academy Russian 300$ garbage but a real double, you'd not think any pump is an advancement. Steel shot was not a factor. The first pumps and especially autos were heavy and not as reliable as a fine double. The popularity of the pump/auto was directly related to faster production cheaper product... period. Same reason people buy plastic foreign made crooked shooting shotguns today. The funny thing is the sales people have slowly increased the price while simultaneously convincing the masses that your gun shouldn't shoot were you point it. Now the new guns cost 3-5 times as much as a quality gun from 40 years ago and require aftermarket sights to hit a turkey at 30 yards.
People haven't shot a Wingmaster or other quality pump so they don't know their shotgun is supposed to hit were it points without having to screw a scope to it lol.
And yes you directly quoted the disposable shotgun remark, then wrote disposable shotgun in your own reply. If you cannot understand that you cannot understand anything else being said Lol.
Shotguns are designed to fit the average sized person, if you are not close to that size you are not looking straight down the barrel.
A friend of mine has a big head, when he shoulders a gun from the factory his barrel is pointing so far to the left there is no way it will shoot straight.
High end guns have adjustable stocks and you can dial in poi/poa, go to a good gun smith and he can get you dialed right in.
My sbe2 wich are notorious for shooting off is spot on with the beads, most of my guns are and according to a former customer of mine that was a pro trap shooter claimed it was due to me being right in line with who guns are built for.
He had me shoulder some different guns and look at my position and I was looking right down the barrel every time.
Tight chokes and heavy loads can mess this up a though.
I know that from at least a high school kids perspective in the late 1970's that getting the 870 Wingmasters that myself and some friends bought at 187 dollars on sale was a big improvement from the old doubles, singles,savages and mossburgs. Don't remember any Model 21's. lol.
1100 Auto's were out of reach price wise.
From the many 870's I have had since , Wingmasters , SPS or Express. All shot pretty straight, some maybe eyeball, some aimed at the walts to center the pattern.
Quote from: owlhoot on March 14, 2020, 10:06:06 PM
I know that from at least a high school kids perspective in the late 1970's that getting the 870 Wingmasters that myself and some friends bought at 187 dollars on sale was a big improvement from the old doubles, singles,savages and mossburgs. Don't remember any Model 21's. lol.
1100 Auto's were out of reach price wise.
From the many 870's I have had since , Wingmasters , SPS or Express. All shot pretty straight, some maybe eyeball, some aimed at the walts to center the pattern.
The model 21 was Winchester's double shotgun lol?
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 15, 2020, 12:16:03 AM
Quote from: owlhoot on March 14, 2020, 10:06:06 PM
I know that from at least a high school kids perspective in the late 1970's that getting the 870 Wingmasters that myself and some friends bought at 187 dollars on sale was a big improvement from the old doubles, singles,savages and mossburgs. Don't remember any Model 21's. lol.
1100 Auto's were out of reach price wise.
From the many 870's I have had since , Wingmasters , SPS or Express. All shot pretty straight, some maybe eyeball, some aimed at the walts to center the pattern.
The model 21 was Winchester's double shotgun lol?
I know that lol. Sure as heck don't remember any 21's in anyone's hands i knew. Us poor ole Missouri boys must have missed out , glad you La boys didn't have too. ;)
Quote from: owlhoot on March 15, 2020, 10:56:30 AM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 15, 2020, 12:16:03 AM
Quote from: owlhoot on March 14, 2020, 10:06:06 PM
I know that from at least a high school kids perspective in the late 1970's that getting the 870 Wingmasters that myself and some friends bought at 187 dollars on sale was a big improvement from the old doubles, singles,savages and mossburgs. Don't remember any Model 21's. lol.
1100 Auto's were out of reach price wise.
From the many 870's I have had since , Wingmasters , SPS or Express. All shot pretty straight, some maybe eyeball, some aimed at the walts to center the pattern.
The model 21 was Winchester's double shotgun lol?
I know that lol. Sure as heck don't remember any 21's in anyone's hands i knew. Us poor ole Missouri boys must have missed out , glad you La boys didn't have too. ;)
No I never owned a 21 either. My uncle knew an old man that had one but he had money to burn. The point I was making is the other guy said people gave up the double for a pump because it was an advancement. I say that's stupid...the reason people switched to a pump was because a good double costs more than most peoples houses. It has zero to do with steel shot or advancement in gun technologies. Just like the plastic shotguns sold today are not in anyway an advancement over the Wingmaster of the 1950's-1970's. The thing is most people have never shot a good double or a well made pump for that matter. So the crooked shooting guns of today seem normal to the uninformed.
That pretty much applies to anything sold today trucks, appliances you name it there all disposable junk that costs several times more than the older stuff did and lasts a fraction of the time and the quality is not close.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 15, 2020, 11:23:20 AM
Quote from: owlhoot on March 15, 2020, 10:56:30 AM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on March 15, 2020, 12:16:03 AM
Quote from: owlhoot on March 14, 2020, 10:06:06 PM
I know that from at least a high school kids perspective in the late 1970's that getting the 870 Wingmasters that myself and some friends bought at 187 dollars on sale was a big improvement from the old doubles, singles,savages and mossburgs. Don't remember any Model 21's. lol.
1100 Auto's were out of reach price wise.
From the many 870's I have had since , Wingmasters , SPS or Express. All shot pretty straight, some maybe eyeball, some aimed at the walts to center the pattern.
The model 21 was Winchester's double shotgun lol?
I know that lol. Sure as heck don't remember any 21's in anyone's hands i knew. Us poor ole Missouri boys must have missed out , glad you La boys didn't have too. ;)
No I never owned a 21 either. My uncle knew an old man that had one but he had money to burn. The point I was making is the other guy said people gave up the double for a pump because it was an advancement. I say that's stupid...the reason people switched to a pump was because a good double costs more than most peoples houses. It has zero to do with steel shot or advancement in gun technologies. Just like the plastic shotguns sold today are not in anyway an advancement over the Wingmaster of the 1950's-1970's. The thing is most people have never shot a good double or a well made pump for that matter. So the crooked shooting guns of today seem normal to the uninformed.
That pretty much applies to anything sold today trucks, appliances you name it there all disposable junk that costs several times more than the older stuff did and lasts a fraction of the time and the quality is not close.
I certainly agree with everything said about the junk made today. You can't trust guns, appliances , auto parts etc.
Now the steel shot part . I have seen a lot of SXS shotguns and even old models 12's and others replaced with 870 wing masters. This was during the first years steel shot became Mandatory. See back then nobody wanted to ruin their barrels. Guns were put up, waterfowl blinds and leases given up. Many old doubles had 2 3/4" chambers as did many pumps and autos too. The only advancement I could see was a 3 inch chamber and newer barrel steel for this new shot and loads. 3 shots was nice too , you needed it with those old steel loads. This certainly got the ball rolling with new pumps and autos especially for the price.
The upland hunters were sure smiling as lots of nice doubles were sold for cheap prices.
I use a versa max that I bought for turkey hunting it's very soft shooting but I had to raise the comb a 1/2 inch because I shot very low and then put a reflex sight on it because I hard time lining beads up having never shot with a raised rib and 2 beads before this gun
Quote from: Sheetrock on March 15, 2020, 12:39:11 PM
I use a versa max that I bought for turkey hunting it's very soft shooting but I had to raise the comb a 1/2 inch because I shot very low and then put a reflex sight on it because I hard time lining beads up having never shot with a raised rib and 2 beads before this gun
Pretty much standard operating procedure these days. Get it dialed in and your good.
Quote from: owlhoot on March 15, 2020, 12:43:37 PM
Quote from: Sheetrock on March 15, 2020, 12:39:11 PM
I use a versa max that I bought for turkey hunting it's very soft shooting but I had to raise the comb a 1/2 inch because I shot very low and then put a reflex sight on it because I hard time lining beads up having never shot with a raised rib and 2 beads before this gun
Pretty much standard operating procedure these days. Get it dialed in and your good.
And that's a dang shame. Surely the mechanics of making a shotgun shoot beads hasn't changed.
Quote from: Bowguy on March 07, 2020, 07:42:56 AM
Quote from: Gutsdozer on March 07, 2020, 06:18:19 AM
Quote from: mudhen on March 06, 2020, 11:45:01 PM
Ithaca Model 37...
Very true bore...
Correct me if I am wrong (which happens a lot) but, aren't Ithaca's receivers and barrels one piece? I have always wanted to get my hands on a turkeyslayer model. No one I know has ever had or even seen one unfortunately.
One piece
Mines not, well the barrel is one piece and the receiver is one piece
This has been covered on shotgunworld and other shotgun specific sites.
If your shotgun is shooting 3' high send it back. Even 18" is not acceptable to me.
Many SBE3 have been sent back and Benelli has made some sort or adjustment, shims can help, but 18" is way too high.
I have owned over 40 shotguns in my lifetime. Including Mossberg, Remington, Winchester, Ithaca, beretta, Krieghoff and Perazzi. And probably some I forgot. And never never did I have a gun that patterned 18" high.
Just bought a brand new Remington 870 Express with just a simple bead that shoots about 6" high at 40 and dead on at 15 with LB 3" #6s. Perfect for me. First 870 ever owned and I love it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My son has an sbe3. I have a Vinci. Any gun with a ramped rib will shoot high if you aim it like a rifle. Lot of nonsense spread around about the sbe3 over on shotgun world, usually by one guy, who quite frankly, bends facts to fit his opinions.I have heard some reports of the early production guns had the mag tubes/ barrel rings slightly canted, but cannot verify. A 6" difference in any direction with the center of a 30" wide pattern doesn't matter in real world wingshooting, but a super tight 10" pattern for turkey hunting it does. So if you have a ramped rib on your gun, it will probably need some sort of sights. I have my gun shimmed and an easy hit 3mm front bead and it shoots close to dead on with a couple chokes and loads, slightly high. But i usually use an optic on it. Gun fit is important, you can have a gun that shoots dead on for one guy, and it will shoot high/low/left/right for another guy. Since your eye is the rear sight when using a bead, and we are all built a little different,not everyone is going to have the same poi/poa. I think Remington came the closest with the 870/1100 on fitting the most people the best.
Well it's a shotgun, not a rifle.. if you are beads only protect that barrel on new models from sliding off a tree or dropping them.
Beretta's are mainly the gun I use. All of them I have had the POA/POI is fine with all of the factory chokes. The problem comes about when putting an aftermarket turkey choke in the gun and shooting heavy turkey loads.