In my opinion to many new turkey hunters spend to much time learning how to call and not enough time learning about the turkey they are hunting. I was guilty of it when I first started also but quickly figured out that understanding what the birds were doing and where they naturally wanted to go made me a much better hunter. In my opinion a guy that can cluck and yelp but knows the turkey and the terrain he is hunting in will kill more birds than a championship caller that doesn't know turkey "habits" or study the area he is going to hunt.
Knowledge
It takes knowledge to know you calling ability ... So in a sense you need both some calling ability and knowing what that bird is telling you in his response ... Time in the woods will for sure make you a better hunter ... Learn how to use you cadence in calling your birds and patience ... So you need both in my opinion .. but i agree you don't have to be championship caller.....
I'll also say you need both w the stronger emphasis on knowledge. After all turkey calling contests have some great callers but not one bird to my knowledge has been shot there. Obviously you need to be near the birds.
Calling can even consist of a simple leaf scratch or wing on a tree trunk. That anyone can handle. As said simple yelps, clucks in decent cadence are all you need. Not hard at all to learn that.
Knowledge. However the more you have of both the better.
I agree knowledge. However, what comp caller is not a turkey killer? I think calling comps are another way to keep the drive going all year. People who comp call do not just think about turkeys during the spring months.
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I agree that Knowledge is the most important. Calling ability is a necessity, however you don't need to be a championship caller. Spending time in the woods will make you a better hunter.
There are two extremes in the calling ability vs turkey knowledge debate.
The first is "If I can call flawlessly, I will call-in and kill more gobblers". The other is "If I just get in the right spot in the woods at the right time, I will kill more turkeys". If you had to choose one or the other extremes, then the second is the one to go with. From my perspective, that extreme also takes away the real charm and attraction of turkey hunting
Neither extreme is correct. Having the right combination of calling ability and "turkey knowledge" not only will get you the most gobblers, but it is a much more enjoyable way to hunt them in my personal opinion. If you know how and what to say to a gobbler,...and do that in some semblance of the right place,....he will usually strike up a conversation with you and want to meet you face to face to chat. That is the essence of turkey hunting.
Being able to go to the right spot in the turkey woods and kill a gobbler without having the ability to get him to let you know he is there and talk about "turkey bizness" just doesn't hold any appeal to me at all. As a bunch of us have stated before, that element of inspiring a conversation with a gobbler is quite often the result of "experience" more-so than calling ability.
Woodsmanship will always trump calling ability, IMO. But you have to be decent at calling. I enjoy watching contest calling and its great for our sport! But in all reality where i hunt, those long drawn out calling sequences they do wouldn't kill many birds, 80% of the time less is more. Setup and knowing your birds are the keys to success.
Knowledge and learn from your failures. What went wrong and what could I have done differently. Location, be in right spot at the right time. That comes with experience on the same property.
Calling. I do exclusive public land hunting and most times have never seen the place before so the knowledge would always be beneficial but I do pretty good without any knowledge of a lot of the areas I hunt.
I like to slowly creep in on a bird to the point I feel he will see me or something and make it convenient for him to come take a look. But with barriers in the way he can't see where the noise is coming from without being in range
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The famous author Jim Spencer once pointedly wrote "sit down wrong, and you're beat."
Its knowledge. In the right place at the right time, a single cluck can close the deal.
Quote from: GobbleNut on February 03, 2019, 09:46:02 AM
There are two extremes in the calling ability vs turkey knowledge debate.
The first is "If I can call flawlessly, I will call-in and kill more gobblers". The other is "If I just get in the right spot in the woods at the right time, I will kill more turkeys". If you had to choose one or the other extremes, then the second is the one to go with. From my perspective, that extreme also takes away the real charm and attraction of turkey hunting
Neither extreme is correct. Having the right combination of calling ability and "turkey knowledge" not only will get you the most gobblers, but it is a much more enjoyable way to hunt them in my personal opinion. If you know how and what to say to a gobbler,...and do that in some semblance of the right place,....he will usually strike up a conversation with you and want to meet you face to face to chat. That is the essence of turkey hunting.
Being able to go to the right spot in the turkey woods and kill a gobbler without having the ability to get him to let you know he is there and talk about "turkey bizness" just doesn't hold any appeal to me at all. As a bunch of us have stated before, that element of inspiring a conversation with a gobbler is quite often the result of "experience" more-so than calling ability.
^^^ This! It's not all one or the other, it's a combination. Put yourself in the right location, and be as competent as possible with your calling. That, in my opinion, provides the most enjoyment.
Calling like a champ in an area that turkeys will never be, or sitting in the perfect spot without having a conversation with a bird is not appealing to me.
Agree with the above.
If you have more than a basic knowledge of the area you are hunting AND you have, likewise, more than a basic knowledge of what makes a gobbler's pea brain do what it does, you will stand a better chance of plopping your butt where he wants to come to die.
The more you SOUND like a real turkey............the better chance you have of convincing him to come to where you plopped your butt.
75% Knowledge 20% Calling 5% Luck (We are dealing with bird brains)
Which is more important, calling or knowledge? The answer is yes. ;)
knowledge, wisdom,
Woodmanship
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Even on unfamiliar ground, I'll take knowledge/experience along with average calling over competition calling skills and little experience.
There are many little things that an experienced turkey hunters does that will improve their odds, without ever running a call. Without that experience you just don't know.
Like the saying goes....you don't know, what you don't know. Lol.
They are somewhat hand in hand... I say Woodsmanship, but to me that includes calling skills.
Put time in learning/studying turkey behavior, habitat use, dominance and more. Then hone your calling skills, put the time into learning the language and sound good.
Put these skills together and you are going to be deadly!!
MK M GOBL
Woodsmanship (knowledge). Subtle clucks, purrs and soft yelps have helped me kill more turkeys than I care to imagine. That and being hidden in thick cover on the edge of open woods as well as having a good set of eyes and paying attention to horizontal movement in the woods.
I do love to cut Yelp and get loud......there is a time and place for that though.
Imo there is no substitute to knowing your land and habitat where you are hunting. As well as the terrain between him and you and know how to maneuver on him jic. Knowledge is confidence in the turkey woods for me.
Both are important ,but I lean towards woodsmanship/ knowledge. I ve walked into woodlots with friends early in the season with them taking the lead and by the time they sit down I'm pretty sure there aren't any birds around to be called in. Bottom line is be humble and work towards getting better in all phases. I love the spring season because of the ability to strike up a conversation with a longbeard,but when that happens I like to think I've done a few things that have allowed that to happen
Knowledge and experience are key in my opinion. Knowing where to call and set-up has to happen first.
Knowledge for me but great calling , knowing when to and when not to is important also. However , i think having a good population of birds is the key to gaining the knowledge and learning the talk.
I'd say calling but I like Fall hunting over Spring. I took my best Fall longbeard with a bow this year and my first with a gun. These hunts took place in two area's I never scouted before the season on public ground. The gun hunt was a morning hunt,with plenty of gobbling, fighting, calling. I called in a longbeard off a fight,looking for his own fight,no decoys involved. The bow hunt was a early afternoon hunt. I don't believe the longbeard and the "super jake" would have just wandered by without calling during the afternoon bow hunt. Decoys,blind and calling all involved.Fall calling also sets the tone for my Spring hunting. I like to call and I believe it is the biggest factor in my success.
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You can't have calling ability if you don't already have a strong knowledge of the habits of wild turkeys. Someone can make turkey noises, but that certainly doesn't mean you have calling ability. Knowing what to say and how to say it is calling ability.
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Both. They go hand in hand. Knowledge comes with experience and experience comes from leg work and learning from the amount of time you're in the woods with birds. There is 11 months a year that most turkey hunters have that are not in the woods. In 11 months of practice of cadence, tone, volume, and various types of turkey language a person can really improve their calling abilities between one season and the next. Then comes the knowing when and where and how much to apply through experience. IMO a person who don't have good calling ability shouldn't call much. And those ppl usually don't have much confidence in their calling. What I'm saying is you give an excellent caller that knows how to talk turkey and put him in the woods where he has never been with birds and if he has enough woodsmanship knowledge to not bump birds, he'll probably have a tom in shotgun range within 2 days. Give that same scenario to some that doesn't call well and has no confidence in their calling ability, and it might be a few weeks if not the next year before one comes in shotgun range. Or they might kill one the first day after setting for 5 minutes with one bad yelp from "luck". But it won't happen every day lol.
I think they go hand in hand. Practice calling as much as possible and do it outside, a yelp in your living room sounds alot different than in the woods IMO. Even if you don't fall hunt for turkeys pay attention to them in the treestand and ground blind and listen to their calling and cadence, you realize that the turkeys in the woods sound alot different than the folks in the calling competition or the TV show. Scout, scout, scout. Thats the only way your going to learn about where you hunt and you'll pick up bits of knowledge about the turkeys in your area along the way.
Drawing from my experience , of which spans a few seasons. Knowledge is key to all of the positives connected to hunting or just observing the Wild Turkey. There are volumes of ( How to ) information and such a variety of tools, many of which are ( user friendly ) to aid an individual in pursuit of a close encounter with such a grand creature of nature, anyone that makes an earnest , serious and resolute effort can be successful. Understanding the reasons of why a wild turkey does or reacts to things it needs or encounters in its daily life and ongoing survival is the key.
Quote from: GobbleNut on February 03, 2019, 09:46:02 AM
There are two extremes in the calling ability vs turkey knowledge debate.
The first is "If I can call flawlessly, I will call-in and kill more gobblers". The other is "If I just get in the right spot in the woods at the right time, I will kill more turkeys". If you had to choose one or the other extremes, then the second is the one to go with. From my perspective, that extreme also takes away the real charm and attraction of turkey hunting
Neither extreme is correct. Having the right combination of calling ability and "turkey knowledge" not only will get you the most gobblers, but it is a much more enjoyable way to hunt them in my personal opinion. If you know how and what to say to a gobbler,...and do that in some semblance of the right place,....he will usually strike up a conversation with you and want to meet you face to face to chat. That is the essence of turkey hunting.
Being able to go to the right spot in the turkey woods and kill a gobbler without having the ability to get him to let you know he is there and talk about "turkey bizness" just doesn't hold any appeal to me at all. As a bunch of us have stated before, that element of inspiring a conversation with a gobbler is quite often the result of "experience" more-so than calling ability.
I like the way you think brother. A guy I know considers himself a turkey killer. And he gets his two every year, usually in the first two weekends and then he is done. He hunts family land that is loaded with turkeys and he sits and waits for them to walk by. He probably calls a bit and they probably sometimes answer. Nothing wrong with that if that is what floats your boat, but he is missing a lot on what is fun with turkey hunting to me. My own brother wants to call them off the limb at flydown and if he can't do that he is pretty much done. I have talked him into sticking it out and finding another bird or circling back to that bird later in the morning - and one of us has killed more than a few by doing this. But if I am not with him, he is done by 9:00am. That is the way he likes to play the game. If we are hunting together and he leaves early and I kill one, I always send him a pic with my foot on the neck of the bird and a single word - QUITTER.
Hopefully part of turkey knowledge will include PATAINCE, hate to admit it but I still get busted at least once every year, go into a new area not knowing where the birds are, sit down and call, hour later give up, stand up and there is a red head looking at me.
While I totally agree that patience can be a key element in success or failure, it needs to be applied at the right time and situation. There is both a time for patience and a time for action. Granted, there are situations (unfortunately) where the only reasonable approach is to sit in one spot and wait a gobbler out. However, there is a point where the spelling of "patience" changes,...and it becomes "ambush".
Again, patience is a virtue,...when applied appropriately and in the proper doses. The moral of this story: Don't become so enamored with patience that you can't see when "action" is needed. :icon_thumright:
I know one thing. I ain't about to sit for 3 hours trying to convince a bird to come somewhere he obviously doesn't want to come. Some may call that patience but I will try and figure out why and do something about it. If he is responding well and obviously interested then in my opinion sitting on my rear end and doing nothing about it is the last thing I am going to do. Sitting in one spot and yacking for three hours isn't realistic anyways.
Anybody that can sit and wait for hours for a non-responsive gobbler to show up is a better man than me. I couldn't do it,...nor do I want to. There are just a lot more enjoyable ways to hunt turkeys.
The point of my prior comments is to let our newer hunters understand that, even though patience in the right measure is a good thing to have, it is not the end-all of turkey hunting.
A newbie that interprets some of the comments made to mean,..."If I just sit patiently in this one spot all day and call a little bit I can kill a gobbler"...in my opinion, is missing out on the entire concept of being "patient" and when patience should be applied.
Just as there are circumstances that call for infinite patience, there are often many times where the opposite is true. That is, aggressive hunting tactics will get you a gobbler when sitting and waiting will give you a great opportunity to watch the grass grow.
The point is, don't "pigeon-hole" yourself into accepting that one method is superior to the other. In time, and with that crucial element of experience, you will be able to make informed decisions on which tactic to use.
One needs at least a modicum of turkey knowledge to properly employ the caller, especially the best call of them all, silence.
ok I had a hunt a few years back, struck I bird on the way out at about 2:30, I knew right where he was, I was above him, he was in a gas line and I was on a road that led down to him, he would answer every time I called, I would go quiet for some time but he would never move, so I am going to loop around to where he is, when I get there and I don't think I got busted doing it I call and he is right were I had been.. I decide to give up and leave for the day but as I am walking out he starts coming my way, I just sit down and scratch the leaves some, he gobbles every time I rake the leaves, its about dark now when I leave, wore out from a all day hunt but I know he will be right there the next morning, next morning he gobbles once on the ground and that's it....this is why I love it so much.
Knowledge by a long way. I suspect many of us started off hunting without even owning a turkey call. Think about hunting them like that for a season or two and then add some good calling. You quickly become lethal turkey hunter. It's not the most exciting way to learn but it is effective.
Knowledge but no calling is no fun.
I agree that it is a combination of knowledge and ability. Knowing where turkeys are located and where they are wanting to go, along with the knowledge of the terrain you are hunting is a big part of the equation. Knowing what to say, when to say it and how to say it is very important as well. I believe calling is important and have a great deal of respect for comp callers (I wish I sounded like them!). I am a very average caller at best with a mouth yelper but I sound better than some of the real hens I've heard over the years. As someone stated earlier, the right place and right time also has a great deal to do with it and the more you are in the area where turkeys are, the better your odds will be.
For me the true joy of turkey hunting is fooling them, not killing them. No way could I sit in a blind hours on end even if you told me a bird would finally show up. I'm not built for it. Not that I don't have patience, but that patience only comes into effect if I'm working a bird. Not where I'm sitting and waiting for a totally non-responsive bird which may or may not show up. IMO that's bushwhacking, not turkey hunting.
So in answer to the original question, I think it's a bit of a tossup. I believe regarding calling ability, on a scale of 1 to 5, if you're a 3 you're good to go. BUT, your turkey knowledge and woodsmanship will dictate when to call, how loud to call, where to call from, what to say, how much to say and when to shut up! Those things you learn through experience. I've been at this game longer than most and still have my "moments" when I think I'm an idiot!
Me, too.
Both are important. Learn both, it's not a question of one or the other really.
Well the obvious answer is knowledge. Because A) You need some knowledge to even call and B) One can kill a turkey without calling, but you cannot call in a turkey if there are no turkeys to call in.
To be perfectly honest one could probably go and kill turkeys without calling or using decoys and it probably wouldn't be too difficult all things considered. If you have all the knowledge you can realistically have on a specific area and the birds in that area you could just set yourself up in the right spot and wait for them to come by. We use the tools to help us because A) Why wouldn't you if it helps? and B) For most it is a big part of the fun.
To loosely quote the great Roscoe Reams " a man who only kills two Gobblers a year is a man who is leaving a lot on the table"
It's this -
1. Position - choose the place where you have the best odds to kill him.
2. Highly skilled calling
3. Nerves of steel
4. Accurate shooting at the moment of truth.
Knowledge. If you know where they are then you can be successful with just clucks. Everyone can cluck on a box or pot- most can on a mouth call if that's your "flava". One of the best hunters I ever knew used homemade mouth calls and assembly line boxes- he was not a great caller, did not hunt in our times of TSS ( if u had a gun that patterned well to 40yds it was the "holy grail". Yet he was successful bc he knew Turkey habits and scouted exhaustively. Knowledge, hands down.... not even close
IMO, I think calling ability is realistically around 10%. I put 80% into Woodsman-ship (ie: Set-up, terrain knowledge, knowing where the birds are in their comfort zones, equipment readiness and patience). The last 10% I believe is his willingness to make that "fatal mistake" and commit. We all have the calling ability, it's the 80% Woodsman-ship that I concentrate on that brings me my success. The last 10% I mentioned is not totally under our control, thus a bit of timing and luck helps here....be well
Quote from: Tom007 on September 12, 2022, 02:16:43 PM
IMO, I think calling ability is realistically around 10%. I put 80% into Woodsman-ship (ie: Set-up, terrain knowledge.
I tend to agree with this. But I think the issue is that calling is about 90% of the fun. I honestly think I could kill just as many turkeys without a call, but it wouldn't be near as much fun, at least for me And some people, well they like to have fun all the time which can make killing turkeys a little harder to do at times.
Quote from: guesswho on September 16, 2022, 08:40:14 AM
Quote from: Tom007 on September 12, 2022, 02:16:43 PM
IMO, I think calling ability is realistically around 10%. I put 80% into Woodsman-ship (ie: Set-up, terrain knowledge.
I tend to agree with this. But I think the issue is that calling is about 90% of the fun. I honestly think I could kill just as many turkeys without a call, but it wouldn't be near as much fun, at least for me And some people, well they like to have fun all the time which can make killing turkeys a little harder to do at times.
:D As usual, succinctly stated and right on target. As blasphemous as it is to admit it here on the premier turkey hunting forum, take away the calling part and turkey hunting would lose a lot of its appeal to this particular fellow. :o
...Now, let the backlash and bashing begin.... ;D :angel9: :newmascot:
I'm going to have to look up the meaning of a couple words before I decide wether to agree with you or bash you. But I'm good either way :D
Quote from: guesswho on September 16, 2022, 08:40:14 AM
Quote from: Tom007 on September 12, 2022, 02:16:43 PM
IMO, I think calling ability is realistically around 10%. I put 80% into Woodsman-ship (ie: Set-up, terrain knowledge.
I tend to agree with this. But I think the issue is that calling is about 90% of the fun. I honestly think I could kill just as many turkeys without a call, but it wouldn't be near as much fun, at least for me And some people, well they like to have fun all the time which can make killing turkeys a little harder to do at times.
Amen, without calling, I don't think I would have the Wild Turkey "obsession". Tricking them with the right call is really what it's all about for me.....
Knowledge of turkey behavior is definitely more important. Not necessarily on that particular piece of property but more in a sense of what that turkey is likely doing or about to do. I believe I could kill most of my turkeys without a call but I wouldn't have much fun doing it. I pride my self on being an above average caller and I have lots of fun trying to call turkeys in. Being a good caller isn't necessarily all that important but it sure doesn't hurt and it's a lot of fun
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On a scale of 1 to 5 if your woodsmanship is a 5 and your calling ability a 3 you'll be more successful than the other way around.
Quote from: Turkeyman on October 26, 2022, 05:02:10 PM
On a scale of 1 to 5 if your woodsmanship is a 5 and your calling ability a 3 you'll be more successful than the other way around.
100% agree!!!
I'll also state the closer you are to a 5 in both areas, the more efficient turkey killer one will become.
Good calling: meaning sound, inflection and feeling, knowing when and what.....can often change the whole mood.
Quote from: guesswho on September 16, 2022, 08:40:14 AM
Quote from: Tom007 on September 12, 2022, 02:16:43 PM
IMO, I think calling ability is realistically around 10%. I put 80% into Woodsman-ship (ie: Set-up, terrain knowledge.
I tend to agree with this. But I think the issue is that calling is about 90% of the fun. I honestly think I could kill just as many turkeys without a call, but it wouldn't be near as much fun, at least for me And some people, well they like to have fun all the time which can make killing turkeys a little harder to do at times.
I agree with the fun of calling birds in and it gets even better when you made the call. Love hunting others calls as well. Love a fine crafted custom call. That being said I also love the chess match I get to play with mature or hardheaded gobblers. So, knowledge of your areas and your ability to move through those areas to slide in closer to work birds is the key to success. IMO In the end calling is great but we all know of birds that sounded like crap in the woods so you can get away with average calling. Pick a bad set up or go barging through the woods and you will most likely fail in the end. One more point. I've killed a good number of birds. As I get older, I find that I have more fun in how I get to play the game and killing the bird comes somewhere after that if it happens at all. Kill or not I will be happy in the end being able to do it my way.
Along this same line, to me the fun part about turkey hunting isn't killing them...it's carrying on a conversation and fooling them. If turkey hunting were like deer hunting whereas...for the most part...you're just a bushwhacker, the fun portion would be lacking. Granted, you can grunt and snort wheeze a deer but, again, for the most part you're a bushwhacker. I absolutely love being a "conversationalist" with turkeys! And being consistently successful with turkeys requires calling ability, granted, but you have to know what he wants, what he'll tolerate, what to do dependant upon his reaction, etc. That's woodsmanship which comes generally from experience. When you've played this game long enough you don't THINK what to do dependant upon what he does...you just automatically respond. That response can be a particular call, with a particular volume, from a particular location after re-positioning or just plain shutting up.
Listened to a podcast recently, I forget who the guest was. During the podcast the guest relayed a story about how him and a bunch of industry big shots were on a turkey hunt. The night before the hunt these big shots got into this same argument with the guest getting lambasted, I believe by an outdoor writer, because the guest thought calling played a bigger role in killing turkeys.
Any who, the next morn the guest was set up on a roost to hunt with this writer. The Tom gobbled on the roost and the writer asked the guest if was going to call. "Nope" was the guests reply.
The gobbler flew down and gobbled on the ground. The writer asked the guest again if he was going to start calling. The guest said "nope" and replied "you better put some of your woodsmanship on that gobbler as he's fixing to leave on out of here."
Quote from: Paulmyr on November 17, 2022, 11:09:50 AM
Listened to a podcast recently, I forget who the guest was. During the podcast the guest relayed a story about how him and a bunch of industry big shots were on a turkey hunt. The night before the hunt these big shots got into this same argument with the guest getting lambasted, I believe by an outdoor writer, because the guest thought calling played a bigger role in killing turkeys.
Any who, the next morn the guest was set up on a roost to hunt with this writer. The Tom gobbled on the roost and the writer asked the guest if was going to call. "Nope" was the guests reply.
The gobbler flew down and gobbled on the ground. The writer asked the guest again if he was going to start calling. The guest said "nope" and replied "you better put some of your woodsmanship on that gobbler as he's fixing to leave on out of here."
:TooFunny: ...Point made. ;D
In defense of the "woodsmanship proponents" however, if someone had enough experience with that gobbler to know what he was likely to do when he flew down, they could likely kill him without ever making a peep on a call. The question then becomes: "Is that what turkey hunting is really about"? Speaking only for myself here,... NO, it is not...
I agree with Gobblenut on that calls is a very interregnal important part of hunts. Though this may sound backwards the mistakes are a very important part of the hunt, I seem to remember my mistake while I was hunting better than the kills.
Quote from: Paulmyr on November 17, 2022, 11:09:50 AM
Listened to a podcast recently, I forget who the guest was. During the podcast the guest relayed a story about how him and a bunch of industry big shots were on a turkey hunt. The night before the hunt these big shots got into this same argument with the guest getting lambasted, I believe by an outdoor writer, because the guest thought calling played a bigger role in killing turkeys.
Any who, the next morn the guest was set up on a roost to hunt with this writer. The Tom gobbled on the roost and the writer asked the guest if was going to call. "Nope" was the guests reply.
The gobbler flew down and gobbled on the ground. The writer asked the guest again if he was going to start calling. The guest said "nope" and replied "you better put some of your woodsmanship on that gobbler as he's fixing to leave on out of here."
Ray Eye
Quote from: EZ on November 21, 2022, 10:24:31 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on November 17, 2022, 11:09:50 AM
Listened to a podcast recently, I forget who the guest was. During the podcast the guest relayed a story about how him and a bunch of industry big shots were on a turkey hunt. The night before the hunt these big shots got into this same argument with the guest getting lambasted, I believe by an outdoor writer, because the guest thought calling played a bigger role in killing turkeys.
Any who, the next morn the guest was set up on a roost to hunt with this writer. The Tom gobbled on the roost and the writer asked the guest if was going to call. "Nope" was the guests reply.
The gobbler flew down and gobbled on the ground. The writer asked the guest again if he was going to start calling. The guest said "nope" and replied "you better put some of your woodsmanship on that gobbler as he's fixing to leave on out of here."
Ray Eye
That's sounds right. Listened to it about a month and half ago.
Last year was my first year of committed turkey hunting and I would have said calling matters most. Now I think that both matter about equally but that depends. I seem to be in constantly shifting situations all complicated by the reality that I am not good at either.
Quote from: Brillo on December 19, 2022, 09:35:02 PM
Last year was my first year of committed turkey hunting and I would have said calling matters most. Now I think that both matter about equally but that depends. I seem to be in constantly shifting situations all complicated by the reality that I am not good at either.
Your observation that "both (calling and woodsmanship) matter about equally,...but that depends" is right on target. There is a learning curve for every one of us throughout our turkey hunting lives. That curve is pretty steep at first, but it will remain until the very last hunt each of us will have.
Those "constantly shifting situations" you speak of are collectively one of the reasons why turkey hunting is so intriguing to many of us. The reality for all of us is that there are situations we are put in where we come to the realization that, like you discovered in your first year, all of us are sometimes "not good at either". ;) :D
Quote from: GobbleNut on December 21, 2022, 08:50:50 AM
Quote from: Brillo on December 19, 2022, 09:35:02 PM
Last year was my first year of committed turkey hunting and I would have said calling matters most. Now I think that both matter about equally but that depends. I seem to be in constantly shifting situations all complicated by the reality that I am not good at either.
Your observation that "both (calling and woodsmanship) matter about equally,...but that depends" is right on target. There is a learning curve for every one of us throughout our turkey hunting lives. That curve is pretty steep at first, but it will remain until the very last hunt each of us will have.
Those "constantly shifting situations" you speak of are collectively one of the reasons why turkey hunting is so intriguing to many of us. The reality for all of us is that there are situations we are put in where we come to the realization that, like you discovered in your first year, all of us are sometimes "not good at either". ;) :D
Very well put GobbleNut. We all get "humbled" no matter how long we've been at it.
I'm gonna say neither are more important than one another. You can sit in a general area but without having some type of calling ability you're lowering your chances to get him close enough for a shot. But on the same foot, you can be a world champion caller but if you sit down wrong to him, you're a had lad, every time.
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Since Scott brought this back up, I will expand on the concept a bit more to perhaps stir a little more discussion.
Recognizing that both calling and woodsmanship are important components to being successful, here's a scenario and question for all. Let's say you put two hunters in the same location in the turkey woods,...that is, they have chosen the same set-up on a gobbler.
Hunter #1 is a highly skilled caller in terms of being able to make most all turkey sounds very realistically. He can yelp, cluck, cutt, purr, cackle, etc. very realistically. He can change tones, pitches, cadence, etc. to mimic live turkeys very accurately. He has some experience hunting turkeys, but not as much as hunter #2.
Hunter #2 is not as good "technically" a caller as #1, but has had more experience calling to gobblers in assorted situations. In short, #2 knows a bit more about "what to say" to turkeys, but his calling ability,...that is, making very accurate sounds with a turkey call,...is borderline. More specifically, his yelping, clucking, cutting, purring, etc. is "off" just a little, but he understands more about interacting with turkeys in terms of when to apply those calls.
So here's the question:
Removing the woodsmanship component,...and again, both hunters are in unfamiliar country, set up in the same location and otherwise under the same circumstances,...which of the two do YOU think would call-in more turkeys? That is, would hunter #1's calling skills possibly supersede his lack of experience and result in gobblers coming to his calling more often than hunter #2, or would #2's experience in "knowing what to say" make him the better bet? ....Or perhaps would their different skills more or less "even out" in equivalent hunting situations?
What say you? Who would you bet on to call in a gobbler in that situation?
Quote from: GobbleNut on January 28, 2023, 11:40:40 AM
Since Scott brought this back up, I will expand on the concept a bit more to perhaps stir a little more discussion.
Recognizing that both calling and woodsmanship are important components to being successful, here's a scenario and question for all. Let's say you put two hunters in the same location in the turkey woods,...that is, they have chosen the same set-up on a gobbler.
Hunter #1 is a highly skilled caller in terms of being able to make most all turkey sounds very realistically. He can yelp, cluck, cutt, purr, cackle, etc. very realistically. He can change tones, pitches, cadence, etc. to mimic live turkeys very accurately. He has some experience hunting turkeys, but not as much as hunter #2.
Hunter #2 is not as good "technically" a caller as #1, but has had more experience calling to gobblers in assorted situations. In short, #2 knows a bit more about "what to say" to turkeys, but his calling ability,...that is, making very accurate sounds with a turkey call,...is borderline. More specifically, his yelping, clucking, cutting, purring, etc. is "off" just a little, but he understands more about interacting with turkeys in terms of when to apply those calls.
So here's the question:
Removing the woodsmanship component,...and again, both hunters are in unfamiliar country, set up in the same location and otherwise under the same circumstances,...which of the two do YOU think would call-in more turkeys? That is, would hunter #1's calling skills possibly supersede his lack of experience and result in gobblers coming to his calling more often than hunter #2, or would #2's experience in "knowing what to say" make him the better bet? ....Or perhaps would their different skills more or less "even out" in equivalent hunting situations?
What say you? Who would you bet on to call in a gobbler in that situation?
I'm going with hunter #2. I'm betting on experience every time. I'm far from a competition grade caller on anything but I'd say I'm average to slightly above average on a variety of callers, pot calls, box calls, scratch box, diaphragm, trumpet, and learning a tube. I routinely kill turkeys when others aren't. I was fortunate enough to live on a farm my parents owned growing up and from age 6 until age 18, when the real world started, I was turkey hunting every day of the season and after tagging out I'd ask every body I knew that turkey hunted if they wanted me to take them and call. For the past 9 years after age 18, I still typically get 2 to 2 1/2 weeks of the season to hunt but it's been public land only for me. I say all that to say, the guy who has the most experience has also made the most mistakes and has a good understanding of what not to do or when not to call. The other guy, though he's a premium caller, doesn't.
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Woodsmanship, Experience, Knowledge and a general understanding of making the proper calling to a gobbler with at least a good RHYTHM are the most important. And as we all know having turkeys to hunt... IMO... Setup is key also in getting to pull the trigger ... Pattern your shotgun and know its limitations. My Vegas bet is on hunter number 2 ... but i also like the odds of hunter number 1
Quote from: GobbleNut on January 28, 2023, 11:40:40 AM
Since Scott brought this back up, I will expand on the concept a bit more to perhaps stir a little more discussion.
Recognizing that both calling and woodsmanship are important components to being successful, here's a scenario and question for all. Let's say you put two hunters in the same location in the turkey woods,...that is, they have chosen the same set-up on a gobbler.
Hunter #1 is a highly skilled caller in terms of being able to make most all turkey sounds very realistically. He can yelp, cluck, cutt, purr, cackle, etc. very realistically. He can change tones, pitches, cadence, etc. to mimic live turkeys very accurately. He has some experience hunting turkeys, but not as much as hunter #2.
Hunter #2 is not as good "technically" a caller as #1, but has had more experience calling to gobblers in assorted situations. In short, #2 knows a bit more about "what to say" to turkeys, but his calling ability,...that is, making very accurate sounds with a turkey call,...is borderline. More specifically, his yelping, clucking, cutting, purring, etc. is "off" just a little, but he understands more about interacting with turkeys in terms of when to apply those calls.
So here's the question:
Removing the woodsmanship component,...and again, both hunters are in unfamiliar country, set up in the same location and otherwise under the same circumstances,...which of the two do YOU think would call-in more turkeys? That is, would hunter #1's calling skills possibly supersede his lack of experience and result in gobblers coming to his calling more often than hunter #2, or would #2's experience in "knowing what to say" make him the better bet? ....Or perhaps would their different skills more or less "even out" in equivalent hunting situations?
What say you? Who would you bet on to call in a gobbler in that situation?
I'm in with #2....but old lady luck often times has her way to equalize us.
Quote from: GobbleNut on January 28, 2023, 11:40:40 AM
Since Scott brought this back up, I will expand on the concept a bit more to perhaps stir a little more discussion.
Recognizing that both calling and woodsmanship are important components to being successful, here's a scenario and question for all. Let's say you put two hunters in the same location in the turkey woods,...that is, they have chosen the same set-up on a gobbler.
Hunter #1 is a highly skilled caller in terms of being able to make most all turkey sounds very realistically. He can yelp, cluck, cutt, purr, cackle, etc. very realistically. He can change tones, pitches, cadence, etc. to mimic live turkeys very accurately. He has some experience hunting turkeys, but not as much as hunter #2.
Hunter #2 is not as good "technically" a caller as #1, but has had more experience calling to gobblers in assorted situations. In short, #2 knows a bit more about "what to say" to turkeys, but his calling ability,...that is, making very accurate sounds with a turkey call,...is borderline. More specifically, his yelping, clucking, cutting, purring, etc. is "off" just a little, but he understands more about interacting with turkeys in terms of when to apply those calls.
So here's the question:
Removing the woodsmanship component,...and again, both hunters are in unfamiliar country, set up in the same location and otherwise under the same circumstances,...which of the two do YOU think would call-in more turkeys? That is, would hunter #1's calling skills possibly supersede his lack of experience and result in gobblers coming to his calling more often than hunter #2, or would #2's experience in "knowing what to say" make him the better bet? ....Or perhaps would their different skills more or less "even out" in equivalent hunting situations?
What say you? Who would you bet on to call in a gobbler in that situation?
#2 easy. Some of the worst callers in the world I have heard were live hens. They all have different voices.
Anybody that has turkey hunted long enough has heard those terrible sounding real hens. They'd finish last in any of our "human judged" turkey calling contests. But a tom goes bananas! They know...they know. That's why when I call I'm far more concerned with note length, note separation and cadence that tone and clarity.
Hunter #2 is my choice without question. I've heard awful callers that turned out to be live hens. Knowing what to say & when to say it goes a long ways towards sealing the deal on a gobbler. You could be the best "show" caller in the world, but too much, too loud, or in the wrong scenario just doesn't work. There's lots of days when the hens aren't too vocal. Loudly calling relentlessly on those days will usually force the turkeys to avoid you. It's all about taking the gobbler's temperature to see what he wants or what he'll react to in a positive manner.
Gobblers aren't always the only ones to call to either. Sometimes (especially early in the season) getting in a shouting match with a hen will get under her skin and cause her to tow a gobble to you...even if he's not saying much.
Jim
Knowledge of your quarry and wisdom. Never hurts to be a good caller but woodsmanship IMO is most important.
I do not see how one could "effectively" call wild turkeys without knowledge?
Making a turkey sound on a turkey call is not all that difficult (especially with a friction call). Knowing where to make those sounds, which sounds to make, and when to make them, all require knowledge...
For "me," the fun of turkey hunting is to utilize my limited knowledge to effectively call in, and trick a bird... Personally, I enjoy the fact that my knowledge base is ever increasing and changing where turkey hunting is considered...