Turkey hunting forum for turkey hunting tips
General Discussion => Turkey Hunting Tips ,Strategies & Methods => Topic started by: jims on May 12, 2018, 03:19:48 PM
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I was wondering how many have noticed the steady decline in turkey numbers the past few years in the Midwest states (S Dak, Nebraska, Kansas, etc)? I hunted several states this year and there seemed to be a similar decrease in the population across the board at all of them. Other hunters that I ran into also said the same thing.
I have a feeling there is a combination of things that has lead to this decline. In Nebraska I have notice a huge increase in the coyote population. In the past I spotted very few coyotes and the ones I saw seemed to have mange. I would expect coyotes, raccoons, and other predators have a pretty high impact on poult survival. I also noticed that the turkeys tend to be a lot quieter in recent springs with very little gobbling off the roost. This may be an indication that they get eaten if they make noise! Where I recently hunted in S Dakota there was hardly a turkey in the river bottoms. I talked to several hunters and farmers that mentioned that they tend to leave the river bottoms (at least during daylight hours) to get away from predators. Hens may totally leave river bottems to nest....and I'm sure the toms follow them.
I guess I'm curious if anyone else has noticed this in some of the Midwest areas where there are adjoining open draws and canyons above river bottoms where they tend to be in large flocks during the winter months? If you happen to be big game hunting this fall be sure to do the turkeys a favor and shoot every coyote you run into!
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What I have seen on the west coast is that turkey populations are extremely cyclic... You can go from feast to famine in one season with the proper (or improper) weather or habitat conditions... Seems that it can take about 2 years to go from famine to feast in my experience as well...
However, it is likely that we will see a continued overall down-ward trend of turkey (and other game populations) due to changes in farming practices and more and more loss and change of habitat...
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Marc is right. Farming practices are hurting the population. I’m not sure what could be done to change them. I’m the south east populations have declined severely. Hope it’s not to late to turn it around.
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I think they're getting killed! I have hunted WIHA in a certain area of Kansas for years with very rarely seeing another hunter except for the last couple years started seeing more and more people and population shows it!
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More people every year... Less land every year...simple. Think about how much it's changed in just the last 10-15 years. Grim outlook for you younger guys.
Start saving now...because if you enjoy hunting in piece and quiet...its going to cost big $$$ in the coming years.
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Seen a lot of jakes in NE this year but KS has been down for 10 years at least.
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I'm from MS but have hunted NE for close to 20 yrs. The population there has steadily declined. The coyote population has exploded, that would be my guess as the reason for decline. I never heard a coyote there until about 2005 or so.
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How about them nest raiders and egg sucking raccoon, no one hunts them ,traps them or monitors that population. Hides are worth virtually nothing and except for a few hard core hound guys no one bothers with them.
Bet I saw more of them this year than strutting toms.
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Not sure about the Midwest, but I feel like our population is down quite a bit here (VA). Some may disagree, but that’s been my experience. I do feel like the farming practices have a negative effect on the turkeys, as well as predators. Hopefully it’ll turn around but I wouldn’t bet on it.
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There's a lot of factors, predation, drought, to much rain at the wrong time, hunting pressure, and hunting pressure can be broken down into several aspects, land access, length of season, harvest, online information exchange.
I just got back from Nebraska and I saw plenty of birds on private ground that received no pressure. Public was a different story. Sure it was late season. Some things we as hunters can change or at least try to effect such as predator numbers, bag limits, or length of season and such. Other things like weather is out of our hands.
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One of the bigger problems has been the fur prices being down in my opinion. Nobody traps just to trap. It was a way to make extra money or a living in some parts of the country. In central Illinois, I’ve also noticed the buffalo gnats seem to affect the turkey population. They can be downright agitating being outside. I can remember my face swelling up like a basketball after one hunt and I was only out there for about 15 minutes. Think about what a turkey has to endure while sitting on a nest.
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The private land I hunted in Nebraska has 0 hunting pressure. I'm the only hunter allowed on a couple of the properties. There has been a slow decline in turkey numbers and around 2/3 fewer turkeys than there were 7 years ago. Predator numbers have skyrocketed plus they've had some lousy nesting conditions. Hopefully things turn around soon!
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I have hunted Central Kansas for 10 years, and this year there was a noticeable decline in the population.
Drought, hard winter, down fur prices, increase OOS hunters, etc. are probably all factors.
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What I don't quite understand is why states are lowering tags. Many states up their winter tag quotas and even offer hen tags. I'm not sure if many hens are harvested in the winter but it may be a good idea to eliminate hen tags in areas where turkey numbers have dramatically declined?
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The sad reality is limited tags sales means limited income for the DNR. I also agree on agricultural practices have changed. Here in Iowa, 25-30 yrs ago you could drive down the road and tell where every creek was from all the trees. Now all the trees and fence rows have been torn out and the sloughs have been tiled. Not only has it hurt the turkey population, but pheasants and other small game also. Iowa went from one of the top Pheasant hunting states in the country to nothing. It use to pretty common to get out of school and be able to shoot a Pheasant or two before season closed at 4:30. Now you can hunt most of the day and feel lucky to see a couple of birds.
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The sad reality is limited tags sales means limited income for the DNR. I also agree on agricultural practices have changed. Here in Iowa, 25-30 yrs ago you could drive down the road and tell where every creek was from all the trees. Now all the trees and fence rows have been torn out and the sloughs have been tiled. Not only has it hurt the turkey population, but pheasants and other small game also. Iowa went from one of the top Pheasant hunting states in the country to nothing. It use to pretty common to get out of school and be able to shoot a Pheasant or two before season closed at 4:30. Now you can hunt most of the day and feel lucky to see a couple of birds.
Mennonites are raping the land here with the same practices and worse.
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You sure don't see the flocks in Nebraska that were 250+ birds like you use too. In one of there areas I hunted there use to be 3 groups that were 250+ in the winter know your lucky to 50 birds in that same area and that's just in the last 5 years. I think in some of the high flock areas it may be disease. I also believe its farming practice, habitat, trapping, urban sprawl, and most of everything that's been mentioned.
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People are overpopulating the world, no one ever mentions that cold hard truth. There's a REASON farm practices and lands are disappearing.
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People are overpopulating the world, no one ever mentions that cold hard truth. There's a REASON farm practices and lands are disappearing.
I beg to differ, let me drop you off in the middle of Alaska or Montana and you walk home and then tell me how we are overpopulating.
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People are overpopulating the world, no one ever mentions that cold hard truth. There's a REASON farm practices and lands are disappearing.
I beg to differ, let me drop you off in the middle of Alaska or Montana and you walk home and then tell me how we are overpopulating.
I’ve been to most states hunting. Except alaska. Ik of the huge plains out west. A lot of which is just that. Plains!
What is most resourceful is being raped more and more. Plain and simple. We have changed the land scape and migrations ramping up farming practices and building up cities and stuff.
Why do you think farmers are eliminating hedges? More money to be made. Why is that? Supply and demand, more demand less product.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/c19d1055bdc85483e6a567114184d966.png)
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People are overpopulating the world, no one ever mentions that cold hard truth. There's a REASON farm practices and lands are disappearing.
I beg to differ, let me drop you off in the middle of Alaska or Montana and you walk home and then tell me how we are overpopulating.
I’ve been to most states hunting. Except alaska. Ik of the huge plains out west. A lot of which is just that. Plains!
What is most resourceful is being raped more and more. Plain and simple. We have changed the land scape and migrations ramping up farming practices and building up cities and stuff.
Why do you think farmers are eliminating hedges? More money to be made. Why is that? Supply and demand, more demand less product.
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Now this I agree with and is what I was talking about with the Mennonites around here raping the land. They do it everywhere they go as I understand it. The other thing is we are living much longer and that is where I see the demand coming in.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/c19d1055bdc85483e6a567114184d966.png)
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This graph shows what I was saying about more demand because we are living longer. I have to go take the dog for a walk on the trail before it gets to hot, you have a good day bud.
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People are overpopulating the world, no one ever mentions that cold hard truth. There's a REASON farm practices and lands are disappearing.
I beg to differ, let me drop you off in the middle of Alaska or Montana and you walk home and then tell me how we are overpopulating.
I’ve been to most states hunting. Except alaska. Ik of the huge plains out west. A lot of which is just that. Plains!
What is most resourceful is being raped more and more. Plain and simple. We have changed the land scape and migrations ramping up farming practices and building up cities and stuff.
Why do you think farmers are eliminating hedges? More money to be made. Why is that? Supply and demand, more demand less product.
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I agree with population being an issue... it floors me people don't really talk about this as it's the root of many issues. Knowing that... do you really think your secret public land hunting spot is going to be less crowded next year and the year after?
Also - private lease prices are going to continue to go through the roof as more land vanishes to accommodate more people, development, etc.
Just look at what has happened to Florida over the last 30 years.... I would bet a guided Osceola hunt in Florida will cost over 10K in the not so distant future.
I see turkey hunters will a few choices in the decades to come. 1. Hunt public with countless other hunters calling every 100 yards apart. Or pay for high dollar leases, or outfitters. Hunting will become a rich mans sport over the coming decades for those hunters that can't tolerate the rat race on public land. This is already becoming the case in Fla.
And yes, there is still plenty of open land in Montana, Wyoming and some other western states now... but I assure you that will change to with time. You guys over 40 can remember how things "used to be" around where you live. Just imagine the changes to come..
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People are overpopulating the world, no one ever mentions that cold hard truth. There's a REASON farm practices and lands are disappearing.
I beg to differ, let me drop you off in the middle of Alaska or Montana and you walk home and then tell me how we are overpopulating.
And then you can tell us how many Wild Turkeys are in Alaska.
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People are overpopulating the world, no one ever mentions that cold hard truth. There's a REASON farm practices and lands are disappearing.
I beg to differ, let me drop you off in the middle of Alaska or Montana and you walk home and then tell me how we are overpopulating.
And then you can tell us how many Wild Turkeys are in Alaska.
lol Not the point I was making, but no there are none.
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I would totally agree that public land hunting is going to be tougher in the years to come. The turkey population where I hunt in Nebraska has plummeted in the last 5 years. I wouldn't say it's due to an increase in hunting pressure...it is likely due to the increase in predators plus possibly poor nesting conditions for several consecutive years in a row. With the decrease in turkey numbers it doesn't seem like states have decreased tag numbers..especially in the winter when quite a few states offer quite a few either sex tags where hens can legally be harvested! From what I've heard declines in turkeys is on a fairly large scale across the Midwest.
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There are many possible factors, either singly or collectively, that are the possible culprits. When it comes down to it, turkey population stability is a function of nesting success and poult survival. The real question, to me, is what are wildlife management agencies doing to address the issue? And the secondary question is what is the main organization focusing on wild turkeys, the NWTF, doing to assist in addressing the issue in both funding and expertise?
Not living in the Midwest or Southeast, and hence not being directly involved in what's going on, I am not familiar enough with the situation to know much about it. If I lived there and was witnessing what some here are indicating is happening, I would be doing what I could as a turkey hunter and conservationist to get to the bottom of the issue.
I can tell you this. If the turkey population is significantly decreasing over time, the first response in terms of hunting change is to curtail the hunting of hens, assuming that hen numbers are considered to be low. If there are plenty of hens about and population recruitment is still going downhill, then hen harvest is not the problem. There is something going on environmentally that is the issue.
The second thing to look at related to hunting is to make sure the spring hunting season takes place after the onset of the breeding season so that the gobblers have had a chance to fertilize the hens. In addition, overly long spring hunting seasons have the potential to disrupt nesting, as well, although that is probably not as big an issue as the first two in most places.
The natural/environmental/ecosystem factors are considerably more complex and difficult to identify. However, the solution lies in actually getting the folks that are supposed to be addressing the problem to do so. In my opinion, the three areas to focus on (as others have stated) are agricultural practices (both farming and poultry operations), nest predation, and nest failure due to increasing spring flooding.
Finally, in terms of gobbler harvest, that is usually a non-factor. However, it can be if conditions are such that population recruitment (successful hatches) do not occur over an extended period. If jakes are not recruited into the population over a period of time, then each year, hunters are taking our a few more of the mature gobblers until you reach a point where there are practically none there. It sounds to me like that is probably the situation in at least some of the described areas.
The "ace in the hole" for us as turkey hunters is that, turkey transplants have proven to be a very successful tool in wild turkey management. The worst case scenario is that turkey populations have to be supplemented with transplants. That is not the ideal solution, but it is always there.
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There are many possible factors, either singly or cThe "ace in the hole" for us as turkey hunters is that, turkey transplants have proven to be a very successful tool in wild turkey management. The worst case scenario is that turkey populations have to be supplemented with transplants. That is not the ideal solution, but it is always there.
I bet the N"WTF" would even provide boxes, especially if there are any cameras present! :toothy12:
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There are many possible factors, either singly or cThe "ace in the hole" for us as turkey hunters is that, turkey transplants have proven to be a very successful tool in wild turkey management. The worst case scenario is that turkey populations have to be supplemented with transplants. That is not the ideal solution, but it is always there.
I bet the N"WTF" would even provide boxes, especially if there are any cameras present! :toothy12:
Ha!!
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I would agree that eliminating hen (either-sex) tags in the fall would likely help. Many of the Midwest states don't seem to be willing to change things in response to the increase in hunting pressure (tag numbers, fall either sex tags, etc) and the declining number of birds (poor poult crops, predators, etc)! Hopefully they figure this out before numbers drop even lower than they already are! It would be super nice to see a rebound....but they may need a little help!
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Is it right that Kansas has reduced the fall tags from 4 to a limit of 1 this year. These are for any sex bird and a very long season.
This would be a great move by KDWP and hopefully other states will follow.
Heard about coons dying from disease a lot too this year.
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I don't know about the Midwest but numbers were down in Kentucky this past year. We had a few bad hatch years and the coon population has exploded in the past few years. My area isnt a big ag area so farming practices aren't to blame. I'm going to try and kill some coons this winter and maybe help a few poults hatch in spring 2019.
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It's getting towards that time of year...spring gobblers! It sounds like several mid-western states are taking eye to declining turkey numbers. Some states I've noticed have lowered quotas. Hopefully many states heads are up to prevent the downward spiral of turkey numbers. Keep your fingers crossed that winters aren't too severe and there are decent poult crops this summer.
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Anybody that knows anything about wild turkey management understands that spring gobbler harvest in properly-timed spring hunting seasons has absolutely no effect on overall turkey population numbers. Decreasing spring gobbler harvest as a tool to increase turkey numbers is a useless management decision.
Regardless of how low turkey numbers become in any area or region, decreasing spring gobbler harvest will have no impact towards population increase. Gobbler harvest is NEVER the reason turkey numbers are declining! Any wildlife manager that implements decreased-gobbler-harvest policies without corresponding research/investigation, and then remedial action, into the REAL causes of population decline should have his wildlife credentials revoked.
Here's what turkey hunters in every state that is experiencing (long term) population declines should do. DEMAND that your wildlife agency inform you as to what they are doing to combat that decline that provides REAL benefit. If it has anything to do with gobbler management, tell them to go back to school until they understand wild turkey biology!
Secondly, if you are an NWTF member, DEMAND that the organization explain what they are doing in your state to reverse turkey population declines. If they are not providing expertise and funding to address the problem, let them know that you will have a hard time supporting the organization in the future if they do not try to fix it. That was the NWTF mission at one time and they have strayed from it. Insuring healthy wild turkey populations across the country, as well as promoting sound management policy, was, and still should be, their first priority.
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Gobblernut, The decrease in quotas I was referring to that may possibly make a difference are the either-sex tags issued in the fall. I would expect more hens that don't get shot has the potential for producing more poults in the spring? I have a feeling back-to-back horrible conditions during nesting...plus the rise of predators has something to do with the decline. Coyotes were almost non-existent where I hunt in Nebraska 2 to 5 years ago due in part to mange. Now I see coyotes on just about every hillside!
It seems to me that there is significant decline in turkeys from where I've hunted in S Dakota south to Kansas so something is obviously is going on through the Midwest.
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I understand, jims. Reducing harvest of hens in the fall is an entirely different ball-of-wax than the knee-jerk reaction of some wildlife managers to reduce gobbler harvest thinking it will impact turkey population numbers. It is true that reducing gobbler harvest can impact "hunt quality" in an area, leaving more gobblers in the field for hunters over time, but that concept does in no way correlate to more turkeys overall.
As for predators, I personally believe that coyotes have very little impact on turkey populations. Adult turkeys are very capable of avoiding coyotes from what I have seen. I think the jury is still out as to whether they have a significant impact on turkey nesting and poult survival. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly an advocate of coyote control. I just don't think they contribute very much to decreasing turkey populations.
As I stated earlier in this discussion, if I was to speculate, I would put agricultural practices, climatic changes resulting in increased spring flooding during nesting season, and nest predation from increased numbers of nest-raiding predators as the primary culprits, with the first two being significantly more influential than the third.
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There are many possible factors, either singly or collectively, that are the possible culprits. When it comes down to it, turkey population stability is a function of nesting success and poult survival. The real question, to me, is what are wildlife management agencies doing to address the issue? And the secondary question is what is the main organization focusing on wild turkeys, the NWTF, doing to assist in addressing the issue in both funding and expertise?
Not living in the Midwest or Southeast, and hence not being directly involved in what's going on, I am not familiar enough with the situation to know much about it. If I lived there and was witnessing what some here are indicating is happening, I would be doing what I could as a turkey hunter and conservationist to get to the bottom of the issue.
I can tell you this. If the turkey population is significantly decreasing over time, the first response in terms of hunting change is to curtail the hunting of hens, assuming that hen numbers are considered to be low. If there are plenty of hens about and population recruitment is still going downhill, then hen harvest is not the problem. There is something going on environmentally that is the issue.
The second thing to look at related to hunting is to make sure the spring hunting season takes place after the onset of the breeding season so that the gobblers have had a chance to fertilize the hens. In addition, overly long spring hunting seasons have the potential to disrupt nesting, as well, although that is probably not as big an issue as the first two in most places.
The natural/environmental/ecosystem factors are considerably more complex and difficult to identify. However, the solution lies in actually getting the folks that are supposed to be addressing the problem to do so. In my opinion, the three areas to focus on (as others have stated) are agricultural practices (both farming and poultry operations), nest predation, and nest failure due to increasing spring flooding.
Finally, in terms of gobbler harvest, that is usually a non-factor. However, it can be if conditions are such that population recruitment (successful hatches) do not occur over an extended period. If jakes are not recruited into the population over a period of time, then each year, hunters are taking our a few more of the mature gobblers until you reach a point where there are practically none there. It sounds to me like that is probably the situation in at least some of the described areas.
The "ace in the hole" for us as turkey hunters is that, turkey transplants have proven to be a very successful tool in wild turkey management. The worst case scenario is that turkey populations have to be supplemented with transplants. That is not the ideal solution, but it is always there.
That’s about as well written as it can be. Well said. It’s frustrating to me to see such a population decline across so many states and see our wildlife officials make little or no change to our regulations. I understand turkey populations go up and down and weather and habitat are big factors but to see such a decline across so many states indicates to me that something else going on...and the N “WTF” seems to be more focused on raising money for a shooting complex.
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That's a great read in the post above. I've noticed where I hunt turkeys in Nebraska many farmers have recently been plowing more and more areas that are possibly great nesting habitat for turkeys, pheasants and other game birds and animals. I'm pretty sure this is in response to the increase demand of corn used for gasoline? I wonder if some of the pheasant and turkey organizations have any influence in convincing farmers to leave critical nesting habitat? I expect this may have some impact on overall turkey, pheasant, quail, and other wildlife numbers?
It would be interesting to know which predator species have the highest impact on turkey egg and poult recruitment?
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That's a great read in the post above. I've noticed where I hunt turkeys in Nebraska many farmers have recently been plowing more and more areas that are possibly great nesting habitat for turkeys, pheasants and other game birds and animals. I'm pretty sure this is in response to the increase demand of corn used for gasoline? I wonder if some of the pheasant and turkey organizations have any influence in convincing farmers to leave critical nesting habitat? I expect this may have some impact on overall turkey, pheasant, quail, and other wildlife numbers?
It would be interesting to know which predator species have the highest impact on turkey egg and poult recruitment?
Raccoons and possum.
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That's a great read in the post above. I've noticed where I hunt turkeys in Nebraska many farmers have recently been plowing more and more areas that are possibly great nesting habitat for turkeys, pheasants and other game birds and animals. I'm pretty sure this is in response to the increase demand of corn used for gasoline? I wonder if some of the pheasant and turkey organizations have any influence in convincing farmers to leave critical nesting habitat? I expect this may have some impact on overall turkey, pheasant, quail, and other wildlife numbers?
It would be interesting to know which predator species have the highest impact on turkey egg and poult recruitment?
Racoons and possum.
I wouldn't be able to say for sure, but the question that needs to be asked is what has changed in the last decade or so that may be causing the current declines in turkey numbers in wide areas while other regions are not experiencing the same declines?
Regarding predators (and especially nest raiding predators), the first thing that comes to mind for me is the feral hog problem that seems to be getting worse. Is there a correlation between increasing feral hog populations and turkey declines in these regions? ...And conversely, looking at regions that have stable turkey populations, are there feral hog problems there?
In the agriculture industry, the questions that arise for me are whether there have been changes in chemical usage in farming practices that may be impacting egg fertility and/or poult survival? Are there new crop growing and harvesting practices that might be significantly impacting turkey-nest location choices and corresponding poult survival in cropland areas? Finally, what about poultry diseases that may have been introduced to regions through the influx and increase in domestic poultry farming?
These two topics don't even touch on the climatic changes that seem to be increasing the occurrence of flooding in widespread areas during nesting season. Again, though, one of the first steps in determining causation is by comparing differences in regions with stable turkey populations with those that are declining.
These most certainly are not all of the questions that need to be asked. I can think of a number of others. Perhaps wildlife agencies are doing all of the above, but if they are, they are doing a damn poor job of informing us turkey hunters as to how they are approaching wild turkey number declines,...and how they plan to address this seemingly significant problem.
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We are seeing a decline in turkey numbers in Tennessee also. We have a 4 bird spring limit. Bearded only. Some people have asked for it to be cut back to two birds and their reasoning has been that all of the hens may not be getting bred due to the possibility that all the males in an area may be getting killed. Do you think this is possible or are turkeys like deer. A buck will travel a long way to breed if need be.
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We are seeing a decline in turkey numbers in Tennessee also. We have a 4 bird spring limit. Bearded only. Some people have asked for it to be cut back to two birds and their reasoning has been that all of the hens may not be getting bred due to the possibility that all the males in an area may be getting killed. Do you think this is possible or are turkeys like deer. A buck will travel a long way to breed if need be.
I have seen a group of toms move about five miles during spring mating season. This is in open pasture , crp and crop ground area. Has happened multiple years in this area since the population has been going down.