Just getting into tss loading. And I just can't get a great pattern. 870, 21" barrel and Hal's big 20xl load, 1 5/8 oz number 9. Indian creek 555 and my old trulock choke from fed hw. I'm averaging 180 in the 10. What's really driving me is on the whole paper I'm only counting in the 400s of pellets total. 711 grains of shot equals the 1 5/8 oz right. Idk what's up.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180109/940bbd3b3287cf578ef141c9f85eb066.jpg)
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180109/2384946775abaa6d2da5ea1b010b859d.jpg)
Crimp is tight, no shot rattling at all.
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What wad is it?
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CSD
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Where did you buy your shot from ? The holes in the paper look a lil big to me TSS #9 shot
There should be 362 pellets per oz with the 9's
Hal, the holes are dotted in permanent marker so they look bigger. I counted em today and had around 560 in the load and I wasn't to thorough on the count so ther was prob more
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What gun and how long is the barrel
Remington 870, 21" barrel
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How did you slit the wads? It looks like you are slinging shot. See if you can recover your wads and post a pic. Look at the powder skirt too.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on January 09, 2018, 07:03:18 PM
How did you slit the wads? It looks like you are slinging shot. See if you can recover your wads and post a pic. Look at the powder skirt too.
Ok, I split one 3/4 way down and the other half way down. Shot twice, same results. What do you mean by the powder skirt?
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Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 09, 2018, 07:15:02 PM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on January 09, 2018, 07:03:18 PM
How did you slit the wads? It looks like you are slinging shot. See if you can recover your wads and post a pic. Look at the powder skirt too.
Ok, 4 slits, I split one 3/4 way down and the other half way down. Shot twice, same results. What do you mean by the powder skirt?
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The base of the wad adjacent to the powder that forms the gas seal. Is it still intact, or did part of it blow off?
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on January 09, 2018, 07:17:11 PM
The base of the wad adjacent to the powder that forms the gas seal. Is it still intact, or did part of it blow off?
Ok I'll go back and try to find the wads tomorrow
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Why are you cutting the slits differently?
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Quote from: davisd9 on January 09, 2018, 07:44:26 PM
Why are you cutting the slits differently?
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In each shell they were the same. I just loaded two differently shells with diff length cuts to see which would maybe pattern better. They were about the same pattern wise though.
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I cut mine almost to the hash marks
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on January 09, 2018, 07:17:11 PM
The base of the wad adjacent to the powder that forms the gas seal. Is it still intact, or did part of it blow off?
Ok, so I can't find the wads, however I loaded another round. This time I cut the wad almost all the way down. This is the results and wad from that shot While they a good bit better, I am still far short of the patterns of most I see post here. 247 in the 10 now
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/a931f240bd08489bfba2c62b37ac16c9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/abcd5ac040f8afa6876cffdb69d56edf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/8a7791ca2f2d8baefc4a0363931a8855.jpg)
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Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 10, 2018, 02:17:05 PM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on January 09, 2018, 07:17:11 PM
The base of the wad adjacent to the powder that forms the gas seal. Is it still intact, or did part of it blow off?
Ok, so I can't find the wads, however I loaded another round. This time I cut the wad almost all the way down. This is the results and wad from that shot While they a good bit better, I am still far short of the patterns of most I see post here. 247 in the 10 now
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/a931f240bd08489bfba2c62b37ac16c9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/abcd5ac040f8afa6876cffdb69d56edf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/8a7791ca2f2d8baefc4a0363931a8855.jpg)
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IC or Trulock?
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That is a beautiful pattern! Is the barrel clean or is it fouled? Those HTL wads create a mess in a barrel. I shot 5-6 times before I clean but like to clean it every 5-6 shot cause of the plastic build up. May have nothing to do with your numbers though.
What is the 20" pattern? If you have 230 in the 20" then you are about 50/50 between the 10" and 20" and in my opinion that is perfection.
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That was a fresh cleaned barrel
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Idk about the 20" I'd have to draw another circle. I know almost all the shot is in the 30" that's drawn on opposite side the paper
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That was the Indian creek
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Agreed, that looks like a nice hunting pattern. Count the 20". Definitely stick with the longer slits. But I'd shoot a few more just like it to be sure it is consistent. Your wad is much more torn up on one side than the other, along with the gas skirt on that side. Anything that causes your wad to tilt before all the shot has left the shot cup can sling some shot and mess up your patterns. The long slits will help with that.
482 in the 20" so there was 235 in the 10-20 mark
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I know it sounds crazy but looking at the pattern and the clusters of shot opening up the choke a little may produce a tighter pattern. It's a little blown bit is a awesome hunting pattern. That's 230 in the 10 inch and 250 in the 20 inch.
Are you cutting slits free handed or with a jig?
Got a 328 10" I will trade you.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/cacfe0aa95e0c11261b4077e81cba9fd.jpg)
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Free handed, but they cuz pretty even. I wish I'd break 300. Maybe some more adjusting and testing. Was thinking of buying a box of apex just to see if it's me loading it or gun/choke issie
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Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 10, 2018, 05:26:27 PM
Free handed, but they cuz pretty even. I wish I'd break 300. Maybe some more adjusting and testing. Was thinking of buying a box of apex just to see if it's me loading it or gun/choke issie
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Stick to what you are doing. There is a jig being made to help cut those wads.
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Maybe try a few different chokes. I am using a Mossberg 500 with a Carlson 575.
What gun are you shooting?
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remington 870 youth
Id try a sumtoy .562 or a Remington super full
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They shot awfully well for us.
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FWIW I get inconsistent patterns shooting 1-5/8 oz of #9 TSS thru an IC 555 in my 870 compact. Different recipe than yours and no chewed up wads. But I'll get a dense core (350-ish) one shot and 250 the next. Total in the 20" is a little less variable but inconsistent all the same. Much more consistent results (10"=260/10-20"=240) for me using a RSF. The RSF goes to the woods with me when using that shot size and weight.
That chewed up wad is not right, I have recovered several of mine and they sure do not look like that.
Where you located at ??
Quote from: Fullfan on January 11, 2018, 06:17:28 PM
That chewed up wad is not right, I have recovered several of mine and they sure do not look like that.
Where you located at ??
South Louisiana, New Orleans area
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Youve got something messed up, I shoot that same load and get around 300 in the ten inch at 40, with around 200 in the 20 inch. You have to be consistent and precise in loading these. Go exactly by Hal's direction and dont deviate from it
Quote from: Hevishot 13 on January 11, 2018, 10:28:13 PM
Youve got something messed up, I shoot that same load and get around 300 in the ten inch at 40, with around 200 in the 20 inch. You have to be consistent and precise in loading these. Go exactly by Hal's direction and dont deviate from it
Trying, ordered a box of apex ammo, once I shoot them I'll know if it's gun or load maybe
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Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 11, 2018, 11:34:31 PM
Quote from: Hevishot 13 on January 11, 2018, 10:28:13 PM
Youve got something messed up, I shoot that same load and get around 300 in the ten inch at 40, with around 200 in the 20 inch. You have to be consistent and precise in loading these. Go exactly by Hal's direction and dont deviate from it
Trying, ordered a box of apex ammo, once I shoot them I'll know if it's gun or load maybe
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Possibly but they could be using a different wad. That is a variation of the BIG 20XL with the VP92 wad, which I shoot. Hal changed the load cause the VP92 was not being carried by BP. Someone elsewhere did a big order and got more wads for people. My friend USMC0331 is shooting that load with that wad and I think he is doing a bit more in the 10" with a BPS with 26" barrel. Not sure which choke.
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Quote from: davisd9 on January 12, 2018, 06:29:58 AM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 11, 2018, 11:34:31 PM
Quote from: Hevishot 13 on January 11, 2018, 10:28:13 PM
Youve got something messed up, I shoot that same load and get around 300 in the ten inch at 40, with around 200 in the 20 inch. You have to be consistent and precise in loading these. Go exactly by Hal's direction and dont deviate from it
Trying, ordered a box of apex ammo, once I shoot them I'll know if it's gun or load maybe
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Possibly but they could be using a different wad. That is a variation of the BIG 20XL with the VP92 wad, which I shoot. Hal changed the load cause the VP92 was not being carried by BP. Someone elsewhere did a big order and got more wads for people. My friend USMC0331 is shooting that load with that wad and I think he is doing a bit more in the 10" with a BPS with 26" barrel. Not sure which choke.
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I'm loading it with the CSD wad, which was in the load data when I got it.
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Think I may have found a cause. I'm using an antique roll hand crimper, which I assume from its age was for 2 3/4 shells and by loading 3" shells into it, it kinda is putting pressure on the shell at and angle at first and slightly bending the shell in a sense. I guess I haven't noticed or this one did it worst to where it was more noticeable, idk, will do the next with a drill press and see.
Maybe this pic will show what I'm talking about (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180112/e855a5dd7d3e7c4c9a2b167ecc2ac788.jpg)
Will load some more and try and shoot next week again when it warms up a bit
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I use an antique roll crimper as well and they work great. The shell length shouldn't matter. It doesn't take much pressure to get a good crimp. You should be compacting the load in the hull before putting it in the crimper. You might be pushing it too hard in the crimper or it is out of alignment.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on January 12, 2018, 05:40:21 PM
I use an antique roll crimper as well and they work great. The shell length shouldn't matter. It doesn't take much pressure to get a good crimp. You should be compacting the load in the hull before putting it in the crimper. You might be pushing it too hard in the crimper or it is out of alignment.
I'm def applying a good bit of pressure but it seems I need too? The load is compact before I crimp but unless I just dnt know how long I have to turn it, it's not crimping down tight unless I push hard? Maybe I'm trying to crimp too much hull but I only have 3/8 above the wad
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This is how it's pushing sideways. By shell being to long the lever touches the edge of the shell at first and when applying pressure it pushes to the side slightly
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180112/f093656640429d182612094a95403002.jpg)
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Quote from: davisd9 on January 12, 2018, 06:29:58 AM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 11, 2018, 11:34:31 PM
Quote from: Hevishot 13 on January 11, 2018, 10:28:13 PM
Youve got something messed up, I shoot that same load and get around 300 in the ten inch at 40, with around 200 in the 20 inch. You have to be consistent and precise in loading these. Go exactly by Hal's direction and dont deviate from it
Trying, ordered a box of apex ammo, once I shoot them I'll know if it's gun or load maybe
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Possibly but they could be using a different wad. That is a variation of the BIG 20XL with the VP92 wad, which I shoot. Hal changed the load cause the VP92 was not being carried by BP. Someone elsewhere did a big order and got more wads for people. My friend USMC0331 is shooting that load with that wad and I think he is doing a bit more in the 10" with a BPS with 26" barrel. Not sure which choke.
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I'm shooting both wads in the big 20xl. the vp92 wad and the csd, my gun patterned better with the csd wad. I got in on that big bulk order and I currently have 500 each of both the csd wad and the vp92. the csd patterned better with less flyers. I hope this helps someone
I trim my hulls so that I have 1/4" above the overshot card before crimping. Your roll crimps do look just a bit deep to me, especially the first one you posted.
Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 11, 2018, 08:56:00 PM
Quote from: Fullfan on January 11, 2018, 06:17:28 PM
That chewed up wad is not right, I have recovered several of mine and they sure do not look like that.
Where you located at ??
South Louisiana, New Orleans area
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Then you're no Sasquatch. You're a straight up Skunk Ape.
Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 12, 2018, 06:07:52 PM
This is how it's pushing sideways. By shell being to long the lever touches the edge of the shell at first and when applying pressure it pushes to the side slightly
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180112/f093656640429d182612094a95403002.jpg)
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Okay, I can see what you mean. Mine is a different design. Trimming the hull might help.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on January 12, 2018, 06:16:50 PM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 12, 2018, 06:07:52 PM
This is how it's pushing sideways. By shell being to long the lever touches the edge of the shell at first and when applying pressure it pushes to the side slightly
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180112/f093656640429d182612094a95403002.jpg)
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Okay, I can see what you mean. Mine is a different design. Trimming the hull might help.
Yea I've done some on my cousins drill press with number 8s and was getting in the 180s in the 10 and was hoping for better with the 9s. So in that time I just got the crimper so o wouldn't have to go over there to use the press. Ordered my own today so will go that route when it comes in and report back!
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Quote from: Spurs Up on January 12, 2018, 06:14:47 PM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 11, 2018, 08:56:00 PM
Quote from: Fullfan on January 11, 2018, 06:17:28 PM
That chewed up wad is not right, I have recovered several of mine and they sure do not look like that.
Where you located at ??
South Louisiana, New Orleans area
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Then you're no Sasquatch. You're a straight up Skunk Ape.
Hahaha
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Getting better! Crimped one with the drill press and shot again. Got 290 in the 10 and another 212 in the 10-20 inch.
502 total in the 20.
Wad was still tore up, idk maybe it's the tight choke. Nice even pattern though, plus it was in the 40s when I shot today so I'm sure that ain't giving me the best results
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180114/bde60ff79a61bdd191521d762bb5080e.jpg)
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Very nice pattern, but the wad would have me wondering what is eating it up.
Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 14, 2018, 03:53:37 PM
Getting better! Crimped one with the drill press and shot again. Got 290 in the 10 and another 212 in the 10-20 inch.
502 total in the 20.
Wad was still tore up, idk maybe it's the tight choke. Nice even pattern though, plus it was in the 40s when I shot today so I'm sure that ain't giving me the best results
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180114/bde60ff79a61bdd191521d762bb5080e.jpg)
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With that, you're getting >85% retention in the 20" circle. Unless you're obsessed with achieving "300 in the 10", call it a day and shoot them in the face.
Quote from: Spurs Up on January 14, 2018, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on January 14, 2018, 03:53:37 PM
Getting better! Crimped one with the drill press and shot again. Got 290 in the 10 and another 212 in the 10-20 inch.
502 total in the 20.
Wad was still tore up, idk maybe it's the tight choke. Nice even pattern though, plus it was in the 40s when I shot today so I'm sure that ain't giving me the best results
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180114/bde60ff79a61bdd191521d762bb5080e.jpg)
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With that, you're getting >85% retention in the 20" circle. Unless you're obsessed with achieving "300 in the 10", call it a day and shoot them in the face.
Nah that's the plan now, few more shots to check consistency but that's all. And see if it chews up the wad in the apex loads just to see
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I recall very clearly using an Indian creek choke with my Mossberg 835 a few years back and it chewed up wads identical to the pic you posted. I thought it may be normal as different chokes have different effects on wads. I never ran into any problems (other than that) and know i must've put 100 shots through that choke.
Try the trulock
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You are going through the exact same experience I went through with my youth model 870. My gun and apparently your gun as well don't quite behave like most others with TSS. Every gun seems to be a little different. I went through 4 or 5 different chokes including a Sumtoy 562, RSF and several different Trulocks before I settled on the IC 555....sound familiar? My wads are tore up as well although they don't look quite as bad as yours do. The wad gets torn up from the wad strippers in the IC choke. Looks like you have a good pattern now. I would stick with it and don't look back.
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Ok so, looking at your wads... are you using Mylar? It sure looks like there's no Mylar in there, looks like pellets left the wad on that one petal, which can destroy your barrel finish. If you are using Mylar, it could be too tight of a choke.
All guns are different. My youth 870 hated the csd loads and LOVED the VP92 wad.
Quote from: bowhunter2k9 on January 26, 2018, 11:19:42 PM
Ok so, looking at your wads... are you using Mylar? It sure looks like there's no Mylar in there, looks like pellets left the wad on that one petal, which can destroy your barrel finish. If you are using Mylar, it could be too tight of a choke.
All guns are different. My youth 870 hated the csd loads and LOVED the VP92 wad.
Yes I'm using Mylar
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So after going to the drill press and getting that better pattern, are you still cutting slits in the wad?
Quote from: Doug Lewis on February 03, 2018, 02:40:59 AM
So after going to the drill press and getting that better pattern, are you still cutting slits in the wad?
Yes I cut the slits almost all the way down. Haven't had a change to load and shoot some more yet. Talked with Hal and he seems to think I may just need to drop the powder charge 1-2 grains maybe. Said he's only seen wads look like that when pressure is high usually.
I had another load I'm gonna try out too and make another 1-2 with lower powder charge and see what I get.
Open to other suggestions too. May get to shoot a few next week again.
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Ok so, got time to reload some more and compare the Indian creek .555 to the Carlsons .565.
It appears it was the choke tearing my wads up and not the load itself. When shot through the Carlson the WAD looks good but when through the Indian creek the wad looks beat up bad as in previous pictures.
However the Indian creek constantly patters better adding 20-40 pellets more in the 10" so maybe I'll stick with it.
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