As our seasons draw to a close I'd like to reflect on my lessons my first year of turkey hunting.
1. Pattern your shotgun. My son missed two birds by the time we realized it may be the gun. I've always shot doves, deer, and ducks with shotguns with good success. Never considered zeroing-in a shotgun. I'm very particular about my deer rifles, making sure they are zeroed before hunting with them each year. I'm embarrassed that I did not do that with our shotguns before turkey hunting.
2. Decoys don't mean much. I use decoys with good success duck hunting, and ducks drop in on us each week using decoys. Turkeys, not so much. I saw a range of behaviors with turkeys attacking my decoys and then some avoiding them like the plague.
3. Scouting the day before is essential to success. The veteran turkey hunter that helped us put us on turkeys that he roosted the evening before. Each time a shot was taken, and we did get a turkey. I'd go plop down where I'd seen turkeys a day or even a week before and it was a crap shoot.
4. Knowing how to call helps. I saw my buddy call turkeys and they'd come in looking, some times they'd come in hot. I sent more turkeys the other way than I did my way. Knowing the right sounds at the right time is critical.
5. Turkeys are smart. I've told several people this year that if turkeys had guns there'd be more dead hunters than turkeys. I've not hunted anything else that made me feel that way.
6. Comfortable seats are important. Can't sit still very long (especially my 13 year old son) if your butt hurts like you are sitting on nails. A good seat is a game changer.
I've got plans to make good on all my lessons from my first year of turkey hunting. Hopefully we'll have better luck next year.
Good list of things learned in year one. Can't say I disagree with anything on your list. I would say you are well on your way to being a consistently successful turkey hunter (assuming you have good places to pursue them).
Excellent points that show you have learned a whole lot in your first year. I only disagree with one, but on that one I think you are completely wrong.
Quote5. Turkeys are smart. I've told several people this year that if turkeys had guns there'd be more dead hunters than turkeys. I've not hunted anything else that made me feel that way.
I believe turkeys are random, wary, panicky and have very keen hearing and eye sight. Everything in the woods that eats critters wants to eat them. They are not smart though. They don't learn like we do (I guess if a human is smart). They will do things that just seem so dang smart (had one circle me in a field on the last day I could hunt - circled me in a way I could not see him). I think that was just him being random. You can't figure out what a turkey is gonna do in the morning, because he doesn't know what he is gonna do. If you accept that, it will shorten your learning curve and also let you know if you are a second guesser like me, that sometimes, no matter how perfect your setup is, how perfect your calling is, etc. he just won't come in. If everything you know tells you that setup was just right, it may have been and he just did not want to play that day. Since we are reversing nature (tom to hen instead of hen to tom), sometimes he just is not willing to walk the extra dozen steps.
Quote from: g8rvet on May 11, 2017, 12:39:07 PM
Excellent points that show you have learned a whole lot in your first year. I only disagree with one, but on that one I think you are completely wrong.
Quote5. Turkeys are smart. I've told several people this year that if turkeys had guns there'd be more dead hunters than turkeys. I've not hunted anything else that made me feel that way.
I believe turkeys are random, wary, panicky and have very keen hearing and eye sight. Everything in the woods that eats critters wants to eat them. They are not smart though. They don't learn like we do (I guess if a human is smart). They will do things that just seem so dang smart (had one circle me in a field on the last day I could hunt - circled me in a way I could not see him). I think that was just him being random. You can't figure out what a turkey is gonna do in the morning, because he doesn't know what he is gonna do. If you accept that, it will shorten your learning curve and also let you know if you are a second guesser like me, that sometimes, no matter how perfect your setup is, how perfect your calling is, etc. he just won't come in. If everything you know tells you that setup was just right, it may have been and he just did not want to play that day. Since we are reversing nature (tom to hen instead of hen to tom), sometimes he just is not willing to walk the extra dozen steps.
That may be. I do know they have more survival instincts than domestic turkeys, basically from the time they come out of the shell. I've raised domestics and eastern wild turkeys side-by-side and as chicks they act completely differently. This spring I had one particular gobbler I was hunting one afternoon and I placed two Avian X feeder hens directly in his path to where I knew he wanted to go (I had patterned him, or so I thought). I wanted him to stop and flirt a bit but at 200 yards he locked up like a statue for what seemed forever. I started thinking he was a fencepost that I had not seen earlier. He eventually turned and went the other way. I think he figured out they weren't moving and concluded (which may be giving him too much intellectual credit) that it was a trap to be avoided. That was my read on the situation. I was hidden, I was still, I wasn't calling that time.
Great example and unless there was something wrong with your setup or decoys, he was probably just being a turkey. May have had his butt whipped the day before by another bird or a gang of jakes when he went to a hen. What I am sure he did not do is think, "hey, that there seems unusual and there could be a hunter near there". They will booger off for any number of a thousand reasons, most of which we never know. They the next time, they come in on a string. I always assume I did something wrong and try to figure it out, but I think a lot of time it is just their randomness.
Quote from: g8rvet on May 11, 2017, 05:21:00 PM
Great example and unless there was something wrong with your setup or decoys, he was probably just being a turkey. May have had his butt whipped the day before by another bird or a gang of jakes when he went to a hen. What I am sure he did not do is think, "hey, that there seems unusual and there could be a hunter near there". They will booger off for any number of a thousand reasons, most of which we never know. They the next time, they come in on a string. I always assume I did something wrong and try to figure it out, but I think a lot of time it is just their randomness.
Well that makes me feel better. I can accept randomness better! :funnyturkey:
Anybody that hunts wild turkeys would be wise to recognize that they have at least a rudimentary ability to "think". Selling them short in this regard will ultimately make you less successful in hunting them.
My son and I have personally witnessed three occasions where turkeys have clearly demonstrated problem solving ability. The three incidents have occurred over a period of several years and involved gobblers that have learned to fly up and shake feeders that were almost empty to shake the last remaining feed out of them.
At no time were these gobblers conditioned to do that. They figured it out all on their own. Is it such a stretch from turkeys doing something like that to the possibility that they can learn to associate such things as non-moving decoys, or invisible turkeys calling to them, with danger?
Yes they can associate things with danger, but not because they are smart. I am actually trained in animal ethology, so my opinion is not without some degree of education and reading on this subject.
You example is perfect to prove my point. Let me explain.
The turkey in your situation learned through positive reinforcement (operant conditioning). There is absolutely no possible way that turkey walked by and considered its actions before hand in the way a human would. That turkey did not think to itself "hmm, lets see, I can fly up to this particular spot, lets see, right there, and bang that feeder in such a position and the corn should come out and I can eat it". Not even close. The turkey did observe what was the source of the corn and just reacted. Flew up and hit the thing and some corn came out. Then shook it and more came out. It was instantly reinforced and learned this behavior. That is not reasoning, that is learning and there is a massive difference.
Turkeys learn from positive punishment as well. I come to this situation (calling, setup, etc) and I get chased by a coyote or shot at by a hunter or whatever and then they learn through negative stimulus that they should avoid that situation. There is no reasoning though, only learning. They learn through reinforcement and repetition, they do not learn through reason-they cannot take a series of steps and come to a conclusion.
Smart to me implies intelligence and reason, not reaction and learning. If you ascribe them intelligence, you will overthink yourself. They are not smart. And don't teach them!
Reasonable response, g8rvet,...but you are basically stating exactly what I said. The only difference is semantics and definition of terminology. To many of us, the terms "thinking", "reasoning", and "learning" are not so clearly delineated with specific, and different, meanings as apparently they are to others such as yourself.
Your statements on positive and negative reinforcement are exactly what I have been stating on these forums for years. There are those that claim, ad nauseum, that turkeys are incapable of "learning" to associate certain things,...such as turkey calling, decoys, etc.,...with danger and "learn" to avoid them. They most certainly are capable of that learned behavior.
Define it by using any terminology you would like. The fact is, however, hunters that do not recognize that turkeys are capable of such are only hurting their own chances of success in hunting them by discounting their abilities to "learn".
Perhaps, as Tidewater Tom stated, turkeys are not "smart",...but they sure as hell are capable of learning to avoid humans that use the same tactics over and over again thinking that, at some point, the outcome is going to change because turkeys are "dumb".
:newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot:
Correct. But new hunters sometimes, and I have heard seasoned hunters with the same opinion, say that turkeys are smart. Meaning they can reason things out. The key distinction is that while turkeys can most assuredly learn things, they have no ability to infer anything. That seems like a subtle distinction, but it is not. they don't know the difference between a golf cart or a tractor unless they are taught that a golf cart means human pressure and a tractor means no danger. It would take a lot of reinforcement for them to learn that difference too. My only point is that we can get away with a lot more if we think about how turkeys learn. Getting called to a hunter one time is not going to teach a bird to avoid all calling - if so, they would never be able to breed in hard hunted public locations. Just like the tree question on another thread. Having a hunter under a tree a few times over the course of a couple of years is not going to cause the birds to avoid big trees.
Case in point: my nephew and BIL called some birds in on our little lease and my BIL (new hunter) shot one of the jakes. 4 days later I called in and killed one of the longbeards that was in that group. He was alone. My other nephew was avoiding that spot because he assumed the birds would not be there. I told him one episode of hearing calling and a boom was not going to be enough to teach those birds that they should avoid calling, or even that general area. They were boogered, but did not learn why they were scared.
If we understand how they learn we can:
a)avoid teaching them
b)realize what we can and can't do in chasing them in the same general areas.
I was not disagreeing, but pointing out that there are some differences in learning and reasoning and how we can use those differences to our advantage.
Good talk though!
Quote from: g8rvet on May 12, 2017, 01:57:55 PM
Good talk though!
Yes,...good discussion. Except for the terminology confusion, I suppose we will just have to agree to agree. ;D :D
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 12, 2017, 02:40:36 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on May 12, 2017, 01:57:55 PM
Good talk though!
Yes,...good discussion. Except for the terminology confusion, I suppose we will just have to agree to agree. ;D :D
Quote from: g8rvet on May 12, 2017, 01:57:55 PM
Correct. But new hunters sometimes, and I have heard seasoned hunters with the same opinion, say that turkeys are smart. Meaning they can reason things out. The key distinction is that while turkeys can most assuredly learn things, they have no ability to infer anything. That seems like a subtle distinction, but it is not. they don't know the difference between a golf cart or a tractor unless they are taught that a golf cart means human pressure and a tractor means no danger. It would take a lot of reinforcement for them to learn that difference too. My only point is that we can get away with a lot more if we think about how turkeys learn. Getting called to a hunter one time is not going to teach a bird to avoid all calling - if so, they would never be able to breed in hard hunted public locations. Just like the tree question on another thread. Having a hunter under a tree a few times over the course of a couple of years is not going to cause the birds to avoid big trees.
Case in point: my nephew and BIL called some birds in on our little lease and my BIL (new hunter) shot one of the jakes. 4 days later I called in and killed one of the longbeards that was in that group. He was alone. My other nephew was avoiding that spot because he assumed the birds would not be there. I told him one episode of hearing calling and a boom was not going to be enough to teach those birds that they should avoid calling, or even that general area. They were boogered, but did not learn why they were scared.
If we understand how they learn we can:
a)avoid teaching them
b)realize what we can and can't do in chasing them in the same general areas.
I was not disagreeing, but pointing out that there are some differences in learning and reasoning and how we can use those differences to our advantage.
Good talk though!
It is a great discussion!
If you kill them the first time they screw up then it prevents them from getting any more wary. That's the aproach I take on anything with a full fan. More than one customer can cause a crinkle in that plan tho. :D
Sent from my SM-G800R4 using Tapatalk
Yes, they are smarter than given credit for. They can easily discern what is natural and what is not. They like to keep a tree on you when approaching or departing. They are as different as night and day from a domestic bird.
Your list 30 years from now will look a lot like this years list.
Exactly, you will learn from experience with the turkeys if you pay attention. That is the only "degree" that will benefit you in turkey hunting. No need to try and outsmart your common sense.
QuoteThey can easily discern what is natural and what is not.
Like, say, a new blind popped up in a field? Lots of dead turkeys who's last thought was "Oh, sh**" would argue with that. I have no first hand experience with a pop-up but lots of folks swear they ignore them.
Technically though, what you say is correct. They probably notice it, they just do not associate it with danger.
If you "experts" think that a turkey can reason out things, I don't know what else to tell you.
I agree that they can and will become educated. Easily and quickly. Smart = intelligence and turkeys ain't got it. Dumb people can learn as well. Heck, you even make the point that a bird needs to learn what to be wary of! I realize we are debating semantics, but to a newcomer, they need to realize that they can get away with more than they think with an uneducated bird and less with an educated one. It is why 2 year olds are easier to kill than mature birds, why hard hunted public birds are harder to kill than low pressured private land birds - they don't have a lower IQ, they just have not learned what to be scared of! The point that Happy made is if you kill the bird, he is done learning.
I mean, are you guys saying that the more education you have, the smarter you are? That IS what you are saying and I say nothing could be further from the truth. Plenty of non-educated people I know are as smart as can be. Plenty of educated people I know are not particularly smart.
To the OP when they say "smart" they mean they have learned what to be wary of, when I say "smart", I mean, well, "smart" by the definition of the word-having or showing intelligence.
Well this educated veterinarian knows that if you think turkeys can reason regardless of where you hunt or how you hunt you don't understand the workings of an avian brain. Don't feel bad. Most don't. it makes a lot of folks feel better to think a turkey is smart, so when they can't kill one it is for that reason. They are wary, random and easily taught danger. If they had reasoning ability they could not be killed by most folks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hard to out think something that doesn't think.
True wild turkeys, true killers :TooFunny:
Quote from: warrent423 on May 25, 2017, 09:30:22 PM
Quote from: guesswho on May 25, 2017, 07:19:51 PM
Hard to out think something that doesn't think.
True wild turkeys, true killers :TooFunny:
See, now if you were a true killer you would know that it is not about out thinking them, but more about thinking "like" them ;)
And that is probably the best lesson there is!
Quote from: warrent423 on May 25, 2017, 09:30:22 PM
Quote from: guesswho on May 25, 2017, 07:19:51 PM
Hard to out think something that doesn't think.
True wild turkeys, true killers :TooFunny:
See, now if you were a true killer you would know that it is not about out thinking them, but more about thinking "like" them ;)
See, now if you had any comprehensive skills you would know what I was talking about and could have saved that Teacher/Grasshopper crap for someone who doesn't know any better ;) ;) You may be able to BS a couple people, but I'm not one of them, killer ;)
I hope to one day reach the status of true killer of true wild turkeys :TooFunny:
As your years of turkey hunting experience begin to add up, you'll discover that a turkey will do what a turkey wants to do. That includes flying across a creek or small river, climbing from limb to limb up a downed tree in order to get a better view, sitting on his rump to fan and gobble, returning several times to flog a just-shot more dominate gobbler, hens literally standing at your feet while looking for the "hen" that's been calling, and other "stuff" that turkeys do. This is part of what makes turkey hunting both exciting and unpredictable. Regardless of the number of years you have in the turkey woods, there's a very good chance that you'll learn something new during the season.
Quote from: g8rvet on May 25, 2017, 06:17:45 PM
Well this educated veterinarian knows that if you think turkeys can reason regardless of where you hunt or how you hunt you don't understand the workings of an avian brain. Don't feel bad. Most don't. it makes a lot of folks feel better to think a turkey is smart, so when they can't kill one it is for that reason. They are wary, random and easily taught danger. If they had reasoning ability they could not be killed by most folks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree. I can't believe any animal with a brain the size of a turkey is "smart". Fantastic eye sight and instincts that tell them to run at even a hint of danger, but not smart.
I don't get this. G8rvet always has good information that he's wiling to share. He puts things in a way that make sense too. Gobblenut n Guesswho also have good well thought out advice. We're all entitled to opinion but people refuting them like they started last week is nuts.
Great input guys.
Good first year Tidewatertom
Thanks Bow, but I freely admit I am learning all the time and I have a small percent of time in the woods and dead birds that some of these folks do. I only know the biology very well. Thinking like a Tom is a major weak point of mine.
I've been at it a long time n am pretty good at reading most animals behaviors, except cats lol. But your info is always interesting to read n informative so thanks
Again, this thread has been a good discussion by a number of contributors. Having said that, we all need to understand that each of us bases our opinions through the "lens" of our own experiences. While it is true that there are a lot of "generalities" in turkey hunting, there are also variables that change the nature of the game from place to place.
Honestly, there have been discussions on this forum in which really experienced hunters have outlined their preferred hunting tactics to which I have said to myself,..."If somebody came here and used those tactics, not only would they probably not kill a turkey, but they would miss out on some really great turkey hunting". I have also said a time or two,..."Boy, if I had to turkey hunt that way, I would just quit turkey hunting". I am sure that some on here have said the same about some of the tactics I have promoted.
The point to be made is that, if we all listen to what others say on here,...and do so with an open mind,...each of us will probably become a better turkey hunter for it, regardless of how good we think we are right now. I know I have.
Great point and the truly great turkey hunters, duck hunters, redfish fisherman, etc are humble and gracious. They are not humble because they are great, they are great because they are humble. They improve every year because they never stop learning. When someone starts telling me how great they are, my brain shuts off with them.
I've got some time on my hands, so here's a little tale. I've told this story before, but it sort of fits in with some elements of this discussion.
Several years ago, we entertained a few folks for a filmed turkey hunt at our property here in the mountains of New Mexico. A couple of them were "world-class" turkey callers, and in fact, one of them had won one of the national calling contests a few years prior. No doubt, they were good on a turkey call.
Each spring, we always have some gobblers that hang out around our cabin. They get hunted a little bit every year by a number of our guests, and by the middle of our season, the ones that have survived are pretty well wised up.
We had one old gobbler that hung around. He had survived several seasons, but every evening he would roost close enough to our place that, like clockwork, we would hear his gobbles after he flew up to roost. I, and a number of other pretty darn good turkey hunters, had been "put through the ringer" with this bird enough times that we had just decided to let him be. It wasn't that we couldn't have killed him, he was so patternable that we could have just spent enough time in the area where he hung out that somebody would have eventually killed him,...if they wanted to do so without calling to him. We had long since concluded that he would avoid turkey calling,...any kind of turkey calling,...like the plague. At one time or another, we had tried it all.
Well, one of the evenings while our "calling champion" guests were here, the old boy sounded off on the roost,...as usual. The "regulars" at the cabin laughed it off as we always did, but two of our guests boldly stated that they would go out in the morning, call that gobbler in post-haste, dispatch him, and bring him back to the cabin bright and early so we could all marvel at their supernatural turkey hunting/calling abilities.
Being as how we had heard all of that before,...many times,...we just snickered under our breath and said,..."Sure, you boys get out there in the morning and kill ya' that gobbler". Mind you, they knew EXACTLY where that old gobbler was. So off they went in the dark the next morning, all of us snickering again as they left.
Well, somewhere around 10 or 11:00, here they came moping back to the cabin, no gobbler in tow. All of us chuckled and said, "Hmmm,...don't see no gobbler, boys. What happened?"
"Ain't never seen a gobbler like that", was the reply. "We tried every trick in the book on him. He would gobble at everything. We could get right in front of him and the second we called, regardless of what we did, he would gobble at us and then turn and go the other way. He kept moving up the mountain away from us, gobbling at every call, and we would keep climbing and circling in front, but the second we called, he would turn and go a different direction. Last time we heard him he was headed down the back side of the mountain, still gobbling every time we called."
All the "regulars" just looked at each other and laughed. We had all been there before. Boys, it don't make no difference how good you think you are at this game, there are some gobblers out there that are "gooder".
Post script: That old gobbler was back roosting in the same place that evening.... ;D :newmascot: :toothy9:
^^^^^^^^
Enjoyed that Jim. Thanks!
HAH! Great story! Sometimes they just do what they wanna do.
Yea. LOL Call shy does not exist. Nothing more than a myth and excuse hunters use for why they were unable to call in a particular gobbler. They will get shy of people/hunters and the stupid things they do, but shy of a GOOD hen sound, Never.
We KNOW you could have called him in IHOS, cause you are the bestest ever.
CLICK
Quote from: g8rvet on June 13, 2017, 06:41:32 PM
We KNOW you could have called him in IHOS, cause you are the bestest ever.
CLICK
Not only could he have calt him and kilt him lickety split, he could do so having the additional disadvantage of having to cover up that big red S on his chest and that shiny blue cape whilst he did it!
...
And he can leap tall roost trees in a single bound! :toothy12: :toothy9: :TooFunny: :toothy9: :toothy12:
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 13, 2017, 08:26:10 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on June 13, 2017, 06:41:32 PM
We KNOW you could have called him in IHOS, cause you are the bestest ever.
CLICK
Not only could he have calt him and kilt him lickety split, he could do so having the additional disadvantage of having to cover up that big red S on his chest and that shiny blue cape whilst he did it!
...And he can leap tall roost trees in a single bound! :toothy12: :toothy9: :TooFunny: :toothy9: :toothy12:
:TooFunny: :TooFunny:
Yea, that poor, lonely, "call shy" gobbler. He's just so shy and so afraid of the sound of a wild turkey hen that he will respond and give away his location every time he hears her. Thats logical. Every Spring he is able to resist the strong physiological urge to breed for he is so frightened by those hen turkey sounds that he runs away and "avoids them like the plague." LMAO. And you have been hunting that same gobbler year after year after year LMAO. You probably think early season hunting is best because gobblers are less "call shy" at that time LMAO.
You can't call him in so that automatically makes him call shy LMAO.
......I'm sorry I'm late here, but I'm understanding you don't think birds get call shy? Especially older birds who have been put through the proverbial ringer?
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on June 13, 2017, 10:12:00 PM
Yea, that poor, lonely, "call shy" gobbler. He's just so shy and so afraid of the sound of a wild turkey hen that he will respond and give away his location every time he hears her. Thats logical. Every Spring he is able to resist the strong physiological urge to breed for he is so frightened by those hen turkey sounds that he runs away and "avoids them like the plague." LMAO. And you have been hunting that same gobbler year after year after year LMAO. You probably think early season hunting is best because gobblers are less "call shy" at that time LMAO.
You can't call him in so that automatically makes him call shy LMAO.
Geez,...here we go again....the old "I'm a better turkey hunter than you, and I can kill 'em when you can't" defense.
In response to your "hypothesis",... yes, as a matter of fact it is quite "logical", which one would understand if one was to try reading a few books on animal behavior about the vast number of studies that clearly have shown that most all organisms, which would include turkeys, are perfectly capable of adapting their behavior through the effects of positive or negative reinforcement. You may LYAO all you want to, but that is not going to change the fact that your position that turkeys cannot become call shy has been soundly disproven by FACTUAL evidence to the contrary.
The "logical" explanation for that gobbler gobbling in response to turkey calling, but not going to the call, is that he has "learned", through his experiences, that approaching turkey calling can result in bad things happening,...such as being shot at or otherwise having the bejesus scared out of him by a human being. So rather than going to a turkey call in the distance, he announces his presence by gobbling, and then waits for a real hen turkey to GO TO HIM.
Perhaps, in what I will assume to be your wide turkey hunting travels, you have been fortunate enough to never have hunted a truly "call shy" turkey, but rest assured, they are out there. Any claims that they are not are nonsense,...not because I say so, but because of the clear animal-behavior science that has proven similar capabilities in organisms time and time again. You are wrong,...so while you are LYAO, chew on that for a while,...and maybe pick up a book or two and read about animal behavior. Education can be a wondrous thing. ;D :toothy12: :toothy9:
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 13, 2017, 08:26:10 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on June 13, 2017, 06:41:32 PM
We KNOW you could have called him in IHOS, cause you are the bestest ever.
CLICK
Not only could he have calt him and kilt him lickety split, he could do so having the additional disadvantage of having to cover up that big red S on his chest and that shiny blue cape whilst he did it!
...And he can leap tall roost trees in a single bound! :toothy12: :toothy9: :TooFunny: :toothy9: :toothy12:
:z-winnersmiley:
Interesting read for anyone smart enough to understand it.
http://www.rnr.lsu.edu/bret/BretWebSiteDocs/35_Gross_259-268.pdf
So your telling me they put a radio collar on silvestris? :)
Sent from my SM-G800R4 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Happy on June 14, 2017, 07:02:50 PM
So your telling me they put a radio collar on silvestris? :)
Sent from my SM-G800R4 using Tapatalk
Not only him, but meleagris and gallopavo, too! My feeling are hurt because I didn't get one! I bet our superhero is fuming! ;D :TooFunny:
Quote from: g8rvet on June 13, 2017, 06:41:32 PM
We KNOW you could have called him in IHOS, cause you are the bestest ever.
CLICK
Ooh I bet he's fun a parties too !!
In my experience, location makes all the difference.you have to be in the right spot, and you have to know the land well. This is key. They are smart, but they can be fooled. Stay out of the open, they can see for a half mile.Keep your face, and hands covered at all times.Avoid other hunters, don't tell other hunters anything.Act like you are a greenhorn.
Quote from: Tidewater Tom on May 10, 2017, 09:38:01 PM
2. Decoys don't mean much. I use decoys with good success duck hunting, and ducks drop in on us each week using decoys. Turkeys, not so much. I saw a range of behaviors with turkeys attacking my decoys and then some avoiding them like the plague.
I've got plans to make good on all my lessons from my first year of turkey hunting. Hopefully we'll have better luck next year.
I'm not looking to debate using decoys or not, but just saying there is a definite skill set it takes to be consistently successful with using decoys.
So I do understand this is your first year and you are learning lessons, but I am confused about the statement about the decoys... Why would one think a decoy would work less with a turkey than a duck, goose or even a deer. My guess would be is that you haven't "Learned" how to hunt with them "right". I'm sure it took time to learn how to set your duck decoy spread "right", depending on that hunt situation and if you are successful you have learned a skill set. Same would apply with turkey decoys, once you learn the skill set and how to apply to your hunt then you will see success.
Now there are times I use turkey decoys and times I don't and just depends on the hunt, but when I do I have some success. I have learned that skill, and it's a lot more than just putting them out and expecting every gobbler in the timber to just come running. Just like with your duck decoys you can setup "wrong" and you won't see success...
If you are interested in learning these skills here is a good read.
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,70971.0.html
MK M GOBL
Quote from: warrent423 on May 25, 2017, 01:49:43 PM
Let me just clarify, this uneducated public ground killer considers the Gobblers he hunts to be smarter and have more intelligence and reasoning ability than most educated people he knows ;)This is just me though. Most would consider me "stupid" for thinking this. I've been humbled enough to accept that. Like OldSchool said, the only degree worth a piss in the turkey woods, is the one earned through trial and error.
^^^^^^ this
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
If you think a Gobbler has intelligence and reasoning ability, then you are defining those terms so outside of the normal use of them that I have no way to discuss anything with you.
Quote from: g8rvet on June 14, 2017, 05:07:49 PM
Interesting read for anyone smart enough to understand it.
http://www.rnr.lsu.edu/bret/BretWebSiteDocs/35_Gross_259-268.pdf
Very interesting read but when you boil it down it's the same thing most of us have known for years unpressured Gobblers are easier to kill. Doesn't matter if you call it intelligence or wariness or adaptability most of the gobblers didn't leave the pressured areas they just became harder to kill. It doesn't bother me when someone calls a gobbler smart I do find it disrespectful to a fine game bird when someone says there dumb. Its funny but I've noticed the ones that quote the walnut sized brains and not being able to reason etc. never are really good turkey hunters. And if you've been at this very long you have probably ran across a gobbler or two that would stop gobbling and go the other way if called too.Call shy or just being a turkey I hunt hard hunted public land and have seen it happen a lot.
I agree a lot with you Phillip, but to a new turkey hunter, which this was about in the beginning, I think it is important for them to understand the difference. Intelligence implies reasoning ability, which turkey's simply do not have. If you TEACH them something, they will dang sure learn (like hard pressured birds do learn). But the turkey can't reason ie I hear a hen sound and all the other gobblers are being quiet, so I better be quiet too because there could be a hunter here. The only reason I think the distinction is important is so that the new turkey hunter does not give them credit for more than they are capable. Good gravy, if they had reasoning ability along with their eyesight and natural wariness and randomness, they would be unkillable. A lot of folks, that are good hunters, like to ascribe supernatural ability to them to make themselves feel smarter or important. That's fine for their self worth, but not much use for someone learning how to turkey hunt, which is the only reason I have said anything on this thread at all. I have learned a lot on this forum, from a lot of folks, and I just have a lot of knowledge and interest on this particular subject professionally. Not trying to be a know it all, but to help the new hunters.
Great thread...
Back to the first page, I have to agree with G8rvet. Someone on the forums once said that "Turkeys have keen sight and vision, and one foot on the panic button..."
They are highly sought after as a food source and have adapted to learn to avoid dangerous situations, but I would not classify them as smart. Challenging to hunt, but I would not say overly intelligent.
As far as decoys, I have come to learn that in some cases they can make the deal, or break the deal. A hen decoy can make a tom hang up, or you may say a pair or small group race in to her... Sometimes a tom will run in to challenge a jake decoy, and other times run for the hills at the sight of one. Part of knowing which decoys to use is knowing what stage of the breeding season they are in, and also having a feeling for the birds in the area...
I tend to use decoys on open ground, and leave them in the truck in heavily wooded areas...
One of the aspects I enjoy about turkey hunting, is that I am still learning, and will hopefully continue to do so until I am no longer able to hunt them...
This is a great discussion,...especially for this time of year. ;D
We have come full-circle on the topic of turkey brain function and capabilities. When all is said and done, the best we can do is take our own personal experiences with the turkeys we hunt and use our own reasoning abilities to apply the best tactics we can to each individual encounter we have with these birds. For those of us that have a great deal of experience, I believe just about every one of us selects our specific hunting tactics based on the initial response (or two) any individual gobbler we call to. At least I know I do.
Regarding the thread title "Lessons...", here's my take for the newer hunters among us: You can almost always tell within the first few calling exchanges with a gobbler, as to what kind of bird you are dealing with,...and that evaluation will/should guide your choice of calling and tactics.
For instance, it is not unusual for a gobbler to gobble at your calling the first time he hears you. We call that the old "courtesy gobble". Personally I never choose my calling/tactics based on that first response. It is the subsequent responses, or lack thereof, from a gobbler that tells me how I should hunt him. We will often hear that called "taking his temperature",...and that evaluation of his "temperature",...and the associated tactics needed for that bird, will often separate "the men from the boys" in whether he ends up taking a ride in the truck.
In summary, regardless of whether we think turkeys are smart or dumb, can "think" or "reason",...if we want to kill them, we adjust our calling and hunting strategies completely based on how they react to what we do as hunters. Our "learning" to "think and reason"...and adjust our methods to how they react,...is the key to success.
:newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot:
Quote from: GobbleNut on February 05, 2018, 09:12:35 AM
For instance, it is not unusual for a gobbler to gobble at your calling the first time he hears you. We call that the old "courtesy gobble". Personally I never choose my calling/tactics based on that first response. It is the subsequent responses, or lack thereof, from a gobbler that tells me how I should hunt him. We will often hear that called "taking his temperature",...and that evaluation of his "temperature",...and the associated tactics needed for that bird, will often separate "the men from the boys" in whether he ends up taking a ride in the truck.
And there is no substitute for lots of gobbler encounters to get a sense of what that temperature scale is. Early on I didn't have a clue and was too passive. There were gobblers from those first few years than I am pretty sure I could have killed had I been more aggressive in calling or repositioning. Being too worried about screwing up slows the learning curve. Hopefully in a few years I can look back on some of the toms that got away last year and the year before and realize I could have played them better too.
Great thread and original observations.....and the lessons will continue year after year after year.......
Quote from: g8rvet on May 11, 2017, 05:21:00 PM
Great example and unless there was something wrong with your setup or decoys, he was probably just being a turkey. May have had his butt whipped the day before by another bird or a gang of jakes when he went to a hen. What I am sure he did not do is think, "hey, that there seems unusual and there could be a hunter near there". They will booger off for any number of a thousand reasons, most of which we never know. They the next time, they come in on a string. I always assume I did something wrong and try to figure it out, but I think a lot of time it is just their randomness.
. I agree, sometimes they just go the other way, for some reason.With decoys, I think they work. I've seen them work many times, but you have to place them 20 yards away.