Ballistically speaking, what's the maximum effective range of Winchester longbeard xr's out of the 20 gauge? 5's vs. 6's? Im concerned about lead shot and a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps, regardless of # of pellet strikes. Anybody else share my concern? Anybody with kpy ballistic software got any numbers for me? TIA.
I posted the same concern. According to Clark at allaboutshooting, the 6s carry energy to kill to 40 yards. I would message him for further info. I kind of doubt the 5s can pattern at 40, but I'm going to find out later when I get time
Quote from: donjuan on April 26, 2017, 01:03:44 PM
I posted the same concern. According to Clark at allaboutshooting, the 6s carry energy to kill to 40 yards. I would message him for further info. I kind of doubt the 5s can pattern at 40, but I'm going to find out later when I get time
Patterned the 5's out of my Remington 870 youth with a crappy undertaker choke. Got 107 hits in a 10" at a measured 40 yards. Just wondering about the lethality at that distance
Both 5s and 6s would penetrate adequately (1.25") to 40 yds. Not allowed to discuss beyond that distance.
Quote from: BandedSpur on April 26, 2017, 03:11:26 PM
Both 5s and 6s would penetrate adequately (1.25") to 40 yds. Not allowed to discuss beyond that distance.
Velocity of 5's and 6's at 40?
Quote from: BandedSpur on April 26, 2017, 03:11:26 PM
Both 5s and 6s would penetrate adequately (1.25") to 40 yds. Not allowed to discuss beyond that distance.
I was concerned it wasn't even going to make 40, to be honest
Quote from: tman91 link=topic=74018.msg720259#msg720259 okdate=1493227968
Quote from: donjuan on April 26, 2017, 01:03:44 PM
I posted the same concern. According to Clark at allaboutshooting, the 6s carry energy to kill to 40 yards. I would message him for further info. I kind of doubt the 5s can pattern at 40, but I'm going to find out later when I get time
Patterned the 5's out of my Remington 870 youth with a crappy undertaker choke. Got 107 hits in a 10" at a measured 40 yards. Just wondering about the lethality at that distance
Quite impressive! A 1 1/4 oz load of 5s only starts with 212 pellet s!
Quote from: donjuan on April 27, 2017, 10:37:55 AM
Quote from: tman91 link=topic=74018.msg720259#msg720259 okdate=1493227968
Quote from: donjuan on April 26, 2017, 01:03:44 PM
I posted the same concern. According to Clark at allaboutshooting, the 6s carry energy to kill to 40 yards. I would message him for further info. I kind of doubt the 5s can pattern at 40, but I'm going to find out later when I get time
Patterned the 5's out of my Remington 870 youth with a crappy undertaker choke. Got 107 hits in a 10" at a measured 40 yards. Just wondering about the lethality at that distance
Quite impressive! A 1 1/4 oz load of 5s only starts with 212 pellet s!
I would hunt any day with a 20 gauge that put 107 number five shot in a ten inch circle at 40 yards!!!! Buford
Just one more thing. I shoot a 11-87 20 gauge, 21 inch barrel with a .575 undertaker choke and longbeard number five shot and only put 89 in a ten inch circle at forty yards. Anything over 100 and it goes to the woods with me!!! Buford
Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal. You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc. You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 27, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal. You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc. You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.
That used to always be true before LBs, but I suspect the LB 6s in 20 ga (at only 1000 fps) may run out of gas before the pattern does. Wouldn't trust them past 40.
Quote from: tman91 on April 26, 2017, 08:05:05 PM
Quote from: BandedSpur on April 26, 2017, 03:11:26 PM
Both 5s and 6s would penetrate adequately (1.25") to 40 yds. Not allowed to discuss beyond that distance.
Velocity of 5's and 6's at 40?
5s=625 fps; 6s=598 fps @ 40 yds when started @ 1000 fps.
Quote from: BandedSpur on April 28, 2017, 08:50:18 AM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 27, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal. You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc. You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.
That used to always be true before LBs, but I suspect the LB 6s in 20 ga (at only 1000 fps) may run out of gas before the pattern does. Wouldn't trust them past 40.
So some hevi shot loads are only 1100 FPS out of a 12Ga and kill turkeys at 40 with out concern! You really think 100 fps is going to make that much difference??
Quote from: coonhunter on April 28, 2017, 09:45:27 AM
Quote from: BandedSpur on April 28, 2017, 08:50:18 AM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 27, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal. You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc. You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.
That used to always be true before LBs, but I suspect the LB 6s in 20 ga (at only 1000 fps) may run out of gas before the pattern does. Wouldn't trust them past 40.
So some hevi shot loads are only 1100 FPS out of a 12Ga and kill turkeys at 40 with out concern! You really think 100 fps is going to make that much difference??
Hevi-shot is denser than lead, so it carries more momentum, and doesn't lose velocity as quickly as lead. Also, since it's a tungsten based material, it is harder than lead, therefore it penetrates better.
Quote from: coonhunter on April 28, 2017, 09:45:27 AM
Quote from: BandedSpur on April 28, 2017, 08:50:18 AM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 27, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal. You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc. You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.
That used to always be true before LBs, but I suspect the LB 6s in 20 ga (at only 1000 fps) may run out of gas before the pattern does. Wouldn't trust them past 40.
So some hevi shot loads are only 1100 FPS out of a 12Ga and kill turkeys at 40 with out concern! You really think 100 fps is going to make that much difference??
Good point. I just for one do not see a concern at 40 yards. Been turkeys killed with #7 lead and i'm sure it had slowed down a lot by then...
But if it's a concern then just use another type shot like the #7 heavyweight.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 27, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal. You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc. You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.
Only when the loads are all the made the same. Penetration and energy kill. If you are talking a max 40 yards, as I agree we all should be, then what you say holds true. If someone uses your statement to take 65 yard shots because they can pattern out there, then what you say is incorrect. You are way oversimplifying shotgun ballistics with that statement.
Quote from: g8rvet on April 28, 2017, 12:27:37 PM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 27, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal. You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc. You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.
Only when the loads are all the made the same. Penetration and energy kill. If you are talking a max 40 yards, as I agree we all should be, then what you say holds true. If someone uses your statement to take 65 yard shots because they can pattern out there, then what you say is incorrect. You are way oversimplifying shotgun ballistics with that statement.
Agreed
Quote from: coonhunter on April 28, 2017, 11:34:19 AM
Good point. I just for one do not see a concern at 40 yards. Been turkeys killed with #7 lead and i'm sure it had slowed down a lot by then...
But if it's a concern then just use another type shot like the #7 heavyweight.
I've got heavyweights, but that's not the purpose of this thread.
Quote from: tman91 on April 28, 2017, 01:05:41 PM
Quote from: coonhunter on April 28, 2017, 11:34:19 AM
Good point. I just for one do not see a concern at 40 yards. Been turkeys killed with #7 lead and i'm sure it had slowed down a lot by then...
But if it's a concern then just use another type shot like the #7 heavyweight.
I've got heavyweights, but that's not the purpose of this thread.
10/4.
I wonder if this would hold true for the 12 ga magnum long beards. They too are running slower!
Quote from: coonhunter on April 28, 2017, 02:51:27 PM
Quote from: tman91 on April 28, 2017, 01:05:41 PM
Quote from: coonhunter on April 28, 2017, 11:34:19 AM
Good point. I just for one do not see a concern at 40 yards. Been turkeys killed with #7 lead and i'm sure it had slowed down a lot by then...
But if it's a concern then just use another type shot like the #7 heavyweight.
I've got heavyweights, but that's not the purpose of this thread.
10/4.
I wonder if this would hold true for the 12 ga magnum long beards. They too are running slower!
The 4's at mv:1050 fps are good to 40. Idk any numbers, just personal experience
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on April 27, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
Well pattern density is what determines shotgun range so if you strike the brain or neck vertebrae it will most definitely be lethal. You don't have to concern yourself with ballistic gel penetration, foot pounds, velocity etc. You don't have to shoot plywood, soup cans, or loblolly pine trees to test penetration either. Pattern fails before penetration.
Well if that was proven to be be true then why don't everyone just shoot a 2 oz load of 9 lead shot . The factory loads and the custom loaders would be doing it. Hevi, heavyweight and tss loads wouldn't be even a thought and cheap lead loads would rule the market.
The 3 1/2" 12 gauge would not have been even used. Heck a 20 gauge would be all anyone needed for anything.
Steel shot for waterfowl could be 1000 fps and 8 shot.
Pattern density is great but you still need penetration and power to get the job done.
Anyway at that velocity, shoot the 5's better energy at 40 yards away . Get a 100 plus in the 10" with your combo and you should be good to go.
Other than that shoot the Federal heavyweight 7's and have no doubt.
The reason everyone doesn't shoot a 2 ounce load of 9 shot lead is because it won't hold the pattern as far as say a 7 1/2 or a 6 lead shot will. Pattern fails before penetration. The lighter "9" shot as you talk about will give way and fly from center faster than larger, heavier shot such as 7 1/2 or 6 like I mentioned. Thats why such small shot like that is reserved for clay pigeons. Longbeards do not change this at all. Nothing does, it is a scientific fact that cannot be stressed enough. I repeat Pattern Fails Before Penetration.
And for Mr. g8rvet, I never suggested anyone should take 65 yard shots. In fact, in previous posts I have suggested they should not.
Some of you guys would be well served to spend more time hunting and shooting game and a little less time inside a magazine article, chart or a graph. Foot pounds are a great way to measure trains but are irrelevant when it comes to killing turkeys. It's not like we are trying to stomp them to death. Pattern Density is where its at when it comes to shotguns. Pattern your shotgun, not Penetrate your shotgun. I don't make this stuff up.
Down South they refer to it as having more money than sense.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on May 10, 2017, 07:40:39 PM
And for Mr. g8rvet, I never suggested anyone should take 65 yard shots. In fact, in previous posts I have suggested they should not.
I know this will shock you, but I was agreeing with your point. But only if it is inside 40 yards, where any legitimate turkey load will have lethal velocity and energy. I assume that was what you were talking about, but you did not say that.
The point I was making, is that if someone took your advice that said only worry about pattern, i guarandangtee you that my 20 gauge with Fed HW #7 will have a killing "pattern" at 50 yards. And that one should not just look at pattern to be the only marker for if a shot is acceptable. Because with or without a legit pattern, closer shots are more lethal. You might be able to get a good pattern with #6 LB at 50 yards. #6 lead at 50 yards has questionable energy which will lead to questionable penetration which will lead to crippling shots.
As to not caring about energy, it is just a way to compare penetration on loads before you waste time trying them out. I agree I don't worry much about it on turkey, but I studied it a little in deciding what I can kill snow geese with and what my ranges are. Just a rule of thumb, but it helps to know what your gun can do. On snows, I leave the #4 steel at home and hunt with #3 if there are lots and it is overcast and windy (closer shots)and #2 if it is clear and calm (longer shots).
Dang I was hoping that the 9 shot example would make a case for the penetration fails before pattern .
Quote from: owlhoot on May 16, 2017, 08:24:47 PM
Dang I was hoping that the 9 shot example would make a case for the penetration fails before pattern .
That is absolutely the case. Lead 9s at 1200 fps penetrate less than 1.25" @ 20 yds, where the patterns are still fantastic. A little dose of common sense goes a long way. It takes both pattern and penetration.
Quote from: BandedSpur on May 18, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
Quote from: owlhoot on May 16, 2017, 08:24:47 PM
Dang I was hoping that the 9 shot example would make a case for the penetration fails before pattern .
That is absolutely the case. Lead 9s at 1200 fps penetrate less than 1.25" @ 20 yds, where the patterns are still fantastic. A little dose of common sense goes a long way. It takes both pattern and penetration.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. So what you seem to be saying is that, in fact, pattern does not fail before penetration?
If IHOS had said that at standard turkey ranges and with standard turkey loads, in most cases, pattern before penetration, then that would have been correct. Like in most things, a simple explanation is rarely completely correct.
Correct and pattern fails before penetration when using adequate shot for your game.
As useing 4 lead your pattern would fail before penetration, at some distance Seems as for that saying to work you use a larger shot size for your game , if large enough shot size is used your pattern will be failing before your shot runs out of penetration for that game bird
Which is the whole issue with sniping of turkeys. I will not open the can of worms as to where it becomes sniping, but #9 TSS absolutely will run out of neither pattern nor penetration before the shot distance becomes, in my humble opinion, unethical. Just because someone CAN shoot them at that distance does not mean they SHOULD.
12 or 20 don't matter a #5 pellet traveling at 1000 fps is the same. Pattern will fail before Penatration
Quote from: dutch@fx4 on June 03, 2017, 07:22:53 PM
12 or 20 don't matter a #5 pellet traveling at 1000 fps is the same. Pattern will fail before Penatration
But only if you are talking about standard turkey loads. And just because a pattern does not fail, does not mean the shot is ethical. But we already covered all that.
Lead 9's will destroy a gobbler's head at 20 yards and then some (I don't recommend them though, better, tighter patterns can be had at distance with heavier shot which will fly straighter with slower spread from center) - Pattern failing before penetration.
Check with some of the guys who have killed with 7 1/2 shot at beyond 40 yards before you make an uneducated comment doubting lead 9's at 20 yards. Anyone remember the Federal 3 inch 2 ounce load of 7.5 shot. Yep pattern fails before penetration with them as well.
It doesn't matter how far the shot penetrates a piece of gel. The figures you are looking at are only averages anyway. The striking pellets in the center of your pattern are rounder, less deformed and hit harder than "average". Not to mention the fact that the pellets in the rear of the load push the leading pellets deeper and deeper resulting in more penetration. The only thing that matters is what they do to a gobbler's head. Not much protection on the ol' head and upper neck.
Pattern fails before penetration. But if you don't believe me you can always keep relying on energy charts, foot pounds, velocity data, ballistic gel penetration, penetration of plywood, cardboard backing, soup cans, loblolly pine trees, sheets of tin or any other irrelevant information that gives you confidence in your shell.
You know all this about pattern fails before penetration that I can find information on is a condition that the shotgun shooter creates by using a specific shot size for the game he is hunting . Any reference I find from any writing also stated that you use a shot size with enough energy for the game you are shooting You want your pattern to fail before penetration. Now these conditions are based of as early of writing as 1900 or so. Mostly refers to bird and waterfowl hunting. No one writing said anything about this being an automatic condition no matter what you shoot.
Now some seem to think that happens no matter what you shoot or twist it around to meet their needs.
You want your pattern to fail before penetration as this would insure that you are useing a large enough shot size with sufficient energy at the distance you plan to shoot.
By using to small of shot you reverse the conditions.
The wild turkey hunter who has a few seasons behind them has some experience and those he knows has some more. Many of us have had a lot of shotgunning experience on birds ,waterfowl, rabbits and squirrels that taught us about what loads killed good and what did not.
Funny thing though I don't remember or know off anyone that made their shotgun load decisions off a a nifty little saying such as PATTERN fails before PENETRATION!
Although a lot of what we used could have followed that saying or not.
QuoteNot to mention the fact that the pellets in the rear of the load push the leading pellets deeper and deeper resulting in more penetration.
LMAO. WTH? Are you saying the pellets in the rear of the load "stack up" and push the front pellets further into the wound channel (or gel channel)? Or are you saying that the pellets in the rear of the load have a charge in them that goes off like a booster rocket and bumps in to the pellets in front and push them faster down range? That is funny right there. I could explain why that is incorrect, but you already know everything, so would be a waste of time. Just go out there and shoot whatever and however you want and preach to who ever will listen. I don't think you have a basic grasp of physics, but fortunately for you, the people figuring out the lethality of modern loads do, so just grab a box and hunt. Smart people have done the work for you.
I got around 130 in the 10 at 40 with the 5s
Develop a solid pattern to 40yds with 20guage Longbeard 5's or 6's and all will be fine. No need to push past 40.
Quote from: Rockhound on June 05, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
I got around 130 in the 10 at 40 with the 5s
good stuff there! As Long shanks said 40 and closer and your good to go.
I shot my SA 20 @ 40yards with a tight wad .570 with 3" #5 long beards and watched the wad bounce off my target. I was impressed with the pattern but it impacted low. Definitely a effective 40yard killing pattern, I didn't count pellet holes.
I shot some LB 6's today out of my 21" 870 with a Jebs .555.
At 20 yards
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/96220de9700588c152c23a5f6cf653f2.jpg)
At 40 yards
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/29192199e0cfd3c1050d63698fef5398.jpg)