There had to be more to it than just having fewer pellets to work with. Pellet size vs Bore Diameter maybe? A combo that would throw nice even relatively dense patterns with #4's was rare. #5's or #6's were much easier to work with. Shucks, even 00 Buck was easier to work with!!!
Hard to say. I have read articles from guys who hunted turkeys in the 50's and 60's and back then they would recommend #6 high brass shot. One of lifes mysteries I guess! Heck here in VA it's still legal to hunt with #2 shot if you like. ???
I shot a lot of #4 at small game as a kid. Never did pattern it but I killed a lot of stuff and sometimes at a pretty good distance. Maybe shooting through tighter chokes is the issue.
Kind of interesting..until you pattern you really don't know what you have. We turkey hunted with guns in the 70's and early 80's and never considered patterning. We shot 5's and 6's cause they had more shot and shot full chokes cause they patterned tighter. Really didn't know what we had we just called the turkeys in close and kept our shots inside 30yds. Shot a couple of those guns recently at 40yds and it's no wonder why dad taught me to shoot turkeys close.
It seems like the Browning 32" full choke was a good #4 shot gun as was the Win Model 12 in a 30 " bbl.
However, there was a tendency to shoot the neck or just at beard height and there were more body shots, in general because patterns were not so tight. Most of the modified choke guys used 6s or even high brass 7.5s and in general were shooting at 30 yds and in.
My first "wow" pattern of #4s was one of the older 835s with a 3.5 Winchester HV #4 load at 30 yards.
So yeah, 4s were used a lot then but weren't exactly 40 yard patterns so much.
Ben Lee recommended 3" #4 shot, lead of course.
Used win xtended range hd 3" 4s (htl though, not p.b) to take a gobbler this year,and was very impressed with it's performance. With the choke I was using it put up some nice patterns out to 35 yds, and was still decent enough at 40 to work if I misjudged my 35 yrd limit for this particular combo. Really liking the p.b 4s in my 10 gauge, I am getting some good patterns out to 40 with it. I think mostly why patterns are better today with 4s might be a combo of better components and quality in the shells and chokes. It's not my ideal first choice in shot size for turkeys, but if you keep the range in sync with the pattern density the results can be devastating to ole' Mr Tom!
In 1985 I had a hard time patterning my 12ga 870 spst with a briley .665 choke, I bought and shot just about every shell at the time in 4,5, & 6 shot 3". finally I tried the supreme HV in a #5, it worked wonders, I bought a lot of them.
I think basically it comes down to the expertise of the shell manufactures learning a lot since then and the quality of todays components in the shells. I believe if I had todays shells back then finding a pattern that was huntable to 40 yards would not have been so tough. For example the Longbeard shells, wow.
I remember reading somewhere that most 16 gauges and some 12 gauges have trouble patterning 4's very well. Whereas a 10 gauge bore handles the larger size pellets better.
I never cease to be amazed at how much shotgunning has advanced and changed during the last 50 years in which I have been a participant. You must realize that historically most patterning was done based upon the percentage of shot within a 30" circle to determine what the gun/shell combo produced at various ranges ie. IC, Mod. Full etc. Most of the patterning for large shot (BB's, 2's, 4's) was done in conjunction w/ waterfowl hunting and waterfowl loads which were a major component of the shotshell market. Most hunters didn't hunt turkeys due to their sparsity, and those that did used waterfowl loads and advocated "body shooting" w/ large shot. The technology of interchangeable choke tubes and back-boring shotgun barrels are fairly recent innovations, and prior to their introduction to put more shot on target, manufacturers began buffering shotshells and increasing the payload. The 3", 12 gauge went from a magnum load of 17/8 oz to 2 oz and eventually w/ the Activ shell to 21/4 oz.. Good even tight patterns w/large shot has always been a challenge, but due to numerous recent advances in the technology of shotshells and modern firearms and design, it is not the obstacle it once was.
Quote from: decoykrvr on July 28, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
I never cease to be amazed at how much shotgunning has advanced and changed during the last 50 years in which I have been a participant. You must realize that historically most patterning was done based upon the percentage of shot within a 30" circle to determine what the gun/shell combo produced at various ranges ie. IC, Mod. Full etc. Most of the patterning for large shot (BB's, 2's, 4's) was done in conjunction w/ waterfowl hunting and waterfowl loads which were a major component of the shotshell market. Most hunters didn't hunt turkeys due to their sparsity, and those that did used waterfowl loads and advocated "body shooting" w/ large shot. The technology of interchangeable choke tubes and back-boring shotgun barrels are fairly recent innovations, and prior to their introduction to put more shot on target, manufacturers began buffering shotshells and increasing the payload. The 3", 12 gauge went from a magnum load of 17/8 oz to 2 oz and eventually w/ the Activ shell to 21/4 oz.. Good even tight patterns w/large shot has always been a challenge, but due to numerous recent advances in the technology of shotshells and modern firearms and design, it is not the obstacle it once was.
This brought back some memories..yup, 40-45 years ago we hunted turkeys with the same lead loads that we used for duck hunting. We shot the tightest chokes we had which was full choke. We werent looking to shoot distance. Inside 25 was what we wanted and 30 was stretching it we thought. We killed our limit and cherished the opportunity to have shot at a turkey. We didnt take chances and rarely lost a bird. The wild turkey was and is something special. Dad and I learned from folks like Ben Rogers Lee and Tom Kelly that were advocating call the turkey close and shoot him right where the feathers start on his neck. We didnt have decoys and you learned when to stop calling so the turkey would walk right up in your wheelhouse looking for the hen. As a little boy I would walk up to the sporting goods store and talk to Cuz Strickland who worked there about turkey hunting. Tommy Borne who later worked in the game call business worked in the Pick & Pack and I would ride my bicycle to the store and talk to him about turkey hunting. Turkey hunters were few back then and they were a close mouthed bunch of folks about turkeys. Felt like we were in some kind of secret society. Those were the days.
THIS IS JUST ANOTHER REASON TOO HEAD OUT TOO THE WOODS , BEAST OF TIMES , :icon_thumright:
Quote from: outdoors on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
THIS IS JUST ANOTHER REASON TOO HEAD OUT TOO THE WOODS , BEAST OF TIMES , :icon_thumright:
Yup, these guns we shoot these days whether it's Pb, HTL, or LB's are absolutely business. We lose turkeys these days..can't blame the guns much. Sometimes they shoot overly tight up close..but we got it made..my dad would have never believed how these setups will shoot. I've opened my choke/pattern up some just to decrease my chances of missing. Who would have ever thunk it. :)
probably cause lead is not a superior pellet....try Hevishot