Hope all is well with all of you. I have been waiting to review the turkey harvest results from last spring in NJ. It was a tough year last year here. The results showed the story. The harvest last spring was 2327 gobblers, down from 2850 in 2020. That is a 17 year low since 2004. The harvest was lower by 523 birds, roughly 18.5% from the previous year. I reviewed the 2022 regulations and was surprised to see no quota/permit changes. They must make too much money with the permits. I myself have seen this coming for awhile, thus I have been limiting what I take on the properties that I hunt. I know this is definitely not unique to NJ, reading all the forum feedback last spring shows this is a big problem in our country. Hopefully this trend turns around, but a 17 year slide here tells me it doesn't look good. I guess all we can do now is control what we do and hope.....thanks for listening, be safe.
First of all, I admire your willingness to limit your own harvests by assessing the health of your turkey population each year and voluntarily choosing to kill fewer birds than the state allows if conditions seem to call for it. Turkey hunters should all have that mind-set, regardless of where we hunt.
Having said that, I don't necessarily think that wildlife agencies look at it from the perspective of how many dollars they can bring in. Personally, I believe it all comes down to understanding that harvest in any given year is going to be a function of reproductive success in the preceding years. Short term harvest numbers, especially in the spring season, can be greatly affected by how many turkeys were born and survived in the preceding two or three years, in particular. The decrease in harvest you cite in your example could very easily be a function of the number of two and three-year-old gobblers that were present in your turkey population, and that would directly correlate to reproductive success in the preceding, corresponding years.
Long term, precipitous declines in turkey population numbers are another matter altogether. If that is happening, and it appears it is in a number of places, there comes a time when the "human hunting" element in the equation must be evaluated and, if needed, addressed. Wildlife managers, if they are paying attention and are conscientious about doing their jobs, should have their "fingers on the pulse" of what is happening, both short term and long term, with their wild turkey populations and adjust the elements they can control accordingly.
We, as conscientious hunters, are all "wildlife managers" in our own right to some degree. Recognizing when to stop pulling the trigger is a virtue that is sometimes hard to grasp for the guy that is just counting bodies without any forethought as to how that is impacting the resource. :icon_thumright:
Great info, thanks. I know the biologists definitely are handling it, I hate to see decline. Let's pray it changes direction to a healthy population we all can continue to enjoy.....
Some years ago it was easy enough to buy lots of turkey tags in NJ. Did they ever change that? They really should have a reasonable limit, particularly given the declining numbers.
Tom,
A question regarding the comparison of hunter/permit sales between 2020 and 2021? Here there seems to be a greater number of hunters out during the Spring of 2020 opposed to 2021. The difference in hunter numbers could account for some of the reduced harvest. Just a thought for a possible cause.
Quote from: Tail Feathers on December 02, 2021, 10:31:49 AM
Some years ago it was easy enough to buy lots of turkey tags in NJ. Did they ever change that? They really should have a reasonable limit, particularly given the declining numbers.
Yes, the permit system is still the same. 2020 was a pretty good year, but there might have been more hunters due to COVID. Thanks....
Quote from: NCL on December 02, 2021, 11:09:44 AM
Tom,
A question regarding the comparison of hunter/permit sales between 2020 and 2021? Here there seems to be a greater number of hunters out during the Spring of 2020 opposed to 2021. The difference in hunter numbers could account for some of the reduced harvest. Just a thought for a possible cause.
I will try to get number of permits sold in 2021 and 2020. Good point , there could have been more hunters in 2020 due to COVID. I did notice it was tougher to find birds last year compared to previous years. I really had to grind to locate them....nothing wrong there though. Makes it more rewarding...Thx again...
I was a committee member and officer for a large NWTF chapter for many years. I saw the push over time to liberalize hunting seasons here in Minnesota. The whole lottery and limited hunting season process was dismantled. It is not a change for the better. I can't say that it directly impacted populations (although it might have), but you can bet that if there is a natural declining population cycle it surely doesn't help to have things wide open. I enjoy turkey hunting above all other recreation and I would support more conservative management.
Quote from: Timmer on December 02, 2021, 04:30:42 PM
I was a committee member and officer for a large NWTF chapter for many years. I saw the push over time to liberalize hunting seasons here in Minnesota. The whole lottery and limited hunting season process was dismantled. It is not a change for the better. I can't say that it directly impacted populations (although it might have), but you can bet that if there is a natural declining population cycle it surely doesn't help to have things wide open. I enjoy turkey hunting above all other recreation and I would support more conservative management.
Minnesota's turkey lottery was basically 100% success for as long as I've been hunting. I never failed to draw the A season tag. Eliminating the lottery had absolutely zero impact on the turkeys or turkey hunting in Minnesota. The limit is still the same. One spring, one fall. Minnesota has never seen a drop in turkey harvest. The last 10 years have been the best 10 years the state has had since it started in 1978.
Quote from: scattergun on December 02, 2021, 07:16:53 PM
Quote from: Timmer on December 02, 2021, 04:30:42 PM
I was a committee member and officer for a large NWTF chapter for many years. I saw the push over time to liberalize hunting seasons here in Minnesota. The whole lottery and limited hunting season process was dismantled. It is not a change for the better. I can't say that it directly impacted populations (although it might have), but you can bet that if there is a natural declining population cycle it surely doesn't help to have things wide open. I enjoy turkey hunting above all other recreation and I would support more conservative management.
Minnesota's turkey lottery was basically 100% success for as long as I've been hunting. I never failed to draw the A season tag. Eliminating the lottery had absolutely zero impact on the turkeys or turkey hunting in Minnesota. The limit is still the same. One spring, one fall. Minnesota has never seen a drop in turkey harvest. The last 10 years have been the best 10 years the state has had since it started in 1978.
The one bird limit keeps the population up. It's great to see your population remaining strong.....best of luck....
Evaluating population trends in wildlife is an extremely long term and complex thing for states. Many states approach it on a state wide basis, but I think that may be an error. Doing it as a one regulation fits all means averaging. What's average usually only is optimum for a very limited area. In most areas it's either less or more restricting then necessary. What I am saying is don't be too harsh on state biologist, they usually have good reasons behind what they are doing. However, they do sometimes screw up and sometimes regulations are socially driven. Being informed and involved is your best bet.
On the declining flocks problem, When looking at what the trend is for a population you need to look back at many years of data on harvest, poult survival and habitat changes. Looking at anything less then tens years of datat is usually not indicative. Many times what you find is a graph that looks like a roller coaster, with ups and downs. What is important is what does the trend line look line. Does the regression show a mean/average line sloping upward or sloping Downward. Then transpose the harvest and reproduction charts and see if the mean average is consistent on both. Like I said, it's not as simple as we didn't kill as many birds this year.
One other thing that happens that alarms hunters is the dynamic way stocked or reintroduced birds react. The most common response to introduction into a habitat void of birds is to saturate this habitat and the excess spread into new areas. I have seen it happen over and over and over. So, after years of this explosion all of a sudden some areas are super saturated with birds and it seems like they are everywhere. I know a valley you could hear 25 gobblers in about 10-15 years after initial stocking. Hunters make an assumption this is normal, it is not.
Any given habitat will have a carrying capacity, or a level that is annually sustainable. All flocks will decrease back to this level after a few years of saturation. It often appears like a mass disappearance of your birds and often invokes panic among hunters. Biologist understand this and watch the long-term trends. They watch to see if the population is just leveling out or actually falling, it takes time. I saw this in my home area. We had a period in the mid to late 80s there were birds galore in the original stocked areas and everyone was having success. Then within a few years everyone was screaming about losing our flock. Within a short period a valley that you heard 10 gobblers in only had 3-5. The good news is for the last 20 years that valley always has 3-5 gobblers, with only year to year fluctuations. The other good news is there are birds everywhere in all the available habitat. In those boom years you had to hunt limited areas. Now you can throw a dart at a map in our area and it will hit an area that has turkeys. So, I suggest we don't panic and let the biologist work. Sure there are bad trends in some areas, but for the most part the states are working on it.
One thing will often happen is this scenario. State wildlife agencies will give hunters what they want if it will not adversely affect the population, even if it means less harvest. If enough people lobby for a more restricted harvest and the population is stable, they may just reduce your tags to "give hunters what they ask for", even if it's not a necessary management move. Regardless of what we often think, they do realize they serve us and as long as it's not harmful to wildlife, they will give you what the masses ask for.
Great info, thank you........
Yep. Great info here. I always learn a lot. How do they count them to establish those population trends?
Quote from: Spurs Up on December 04, 2021, 07:28:52 AM
Yep. Great info here. I always learn a lot. How do they count them to establish those population trends?
Great question? My though maybe aerial?
Quote from: Tom007 on December 04, 2021, 07:31:20 AM
Quote from: Spurs Up on December 04, 2021, 07:28:52 AM
Yep. Great info here. I always learn a lot. How do they count them to establish those population trends?
Great question? My though maybe aerial?
I am not sure anymore as I have been out of the loop too long. They used to do it by various methods. Mail carriers used to report sightings, they had public sighting reports and they used to do a winter fly over in some areas. Also, wildlife officers would report on flock sightings. It just an estimate, but it's does give a general idea of trends. I came back to add that this is how Ohio does it.
Tom007-- I was hoping that when,I bought my new 2022 New Jersey Hunting License in January that,I would see Big Time Changes in the Spring Gobbler Limit . But you viewed the New Regs Guide and no Changes.
That is both Sad and not at all good for the Spring Turkey Hunter in New Jersey looking for Turkey numbers to increase in NJ.
As it stands now a Spring Turkey Hunter with very Deep Pockets,Alot of Free Time on his Hands, as well as both Private + Public Lands to hunt on in possibly Several Zones can buy up to 25 or so Spring Turkey Permits "if" those Turkey Permits are still available in that Zone after the Lottery and during the " over the Counter" sale of Leftover Turkey Permits.
And at 22 Bucks for a Turkey Permit,I usually Buy 3 to 4 during the much later- over the Counter process.
The Problem is and it is a Problem that expands every Spring before the Spring Turkey Season Starts is Turkey Hunters who are Rich- perhaps retired or the ability to hunt every morning before working later will Buy as many Spring Turkey Permits as they can possibly afford!
Especially that opening "A" Week of 5 Days as well as that 1st Saturday.
Now imagine someone who Hunts 2 or more Zones with good Private Land in each Zone as well as nearby Public Dirt. Alot of Gobblers could be killed in just those 1st 6 Days..
No one here will hear about how many Gobblers some of these Guys will ultimately take in 1 Small State.
This System makes it Tougher for the Poor Sap who Hunts Public and has been struggling to take even 1 Gobbler because perhaps his Calling Skills are nothing compared to the Guy who has already killed 6 Gobblers and now easily Calls that Gobbler up and away from that Poor Sap.
The New Jersey Spring Turkey Limit should be 5 Gobblers Max. Many would say 2 or at the most 3 Gobblers.
Unfortunately this outdated System probably won't change because- Money Talks and Bull@#$% walks.
If the harvest continues to decline, we all have to hope changes are made. I fall into the category of retired, but not rich. I do love to hunt turkey, l go out everyday that the weather dictates in NY and NJ. But like all valuable resources, over harvesting and not paying attention to brood size and reproduction numbers will certainly lead to a decline. Like others have said in this thread, we hope the biologists have the correct info and foresight to keep our populations strong and healthy for generations to come....have a safe season...
Another scary issue that started last spring is you now phone in your harvest results instead of checking them in in person in NJ. which I believe is not good. In person check in to me is essential to keep the numbers correct. We can only hope that the final numbers account for all the birds taken and that all the hunters that harvest birds do the right thing and phone them in....
Retired here also and hunt in both New York + New Jersey.
I enjoyed taking my Gobbler to the Check Stations and meeting other successful Turkey Hunters,I otherwise would never have met.
Without a Doubt- there will be some who do not call in their Harvest.
Quote from: Tom007 on December 03, 2021, 06:47:28 AM
Quote from: scattergun on December 02, 2021, 07:16:53 PM
Quote from: Timmer on December 02, 2021, 04:30:42 PM
I was a committee member and officer for a large NWTF chapter for many years. I saw the push over time to liberalize hunting seasons here in Minnesota. The whole lottery and limited hunting season process was dismantled. It is not a change for the better. I can't say that it directly impacted populations (although it might have), but you can bet that if there is a natural declining population cycle it surely doesn't help to have things wide open. I enjoy turkey hunting above all other recreation and I would support more conservative management.
Minnesota's turkey lottery was basically 100% success for as long as I've been hunting. I never failed to draw the A season tag. Eliminating the lottery had absolutely zero impact on the turkeys or turkey hunting in Minnesota. The limit is still the same. One spring, one fall. Minnesota has never seen a drop in turkey harvest. The last 10 years have been the best 10 years the state has had since it started in 1978.
The one bird limit keeps the population up. It's great to see your population remaining strong.....best of luck....
Yes I'm very grateful for the Minnesota Turkey hunting. Fortunately our turkey population is doing very well and I'm seeing birds way up north. And I'm certain parts of the state the hunting is absolute dynamite.
I agree that the 1 bird limit is what keeps things good. And the mid April start date.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ament to all, thanks for the great info. We will keep it all going together...best of luck
Quote from: eggshell on December 03, 2021, 07:47:18 AM
Evaluating population trends in wildlife is an extremely long term and complex thing for states. Many states approach it on a state wide basis, but I think that may be an error. Doing it as a one regulation fits all means averaging. What's average usually only is optimum for a very limited area. In most areas it's either less or more restricting then necessary. What I am saying is don't be too harsh on state biologist, they usually have good reasons behind what they are doing. However, they do sometimes screw up and sometimes regulations are socially driven. Being informed and involved is your best bet.
On the declining flocks problem, When looking at what the trend is for a population you need to look back at many years of data on harvest, poult survival and habitat changes. Looking at anything less then tens years of datat is usually not indicative. Many times what you find is a graph that looks like a roller coaster, with ups and downs. What is important is what does the trend line look line. Does the regression show a mean/average line sloping upward or sloping Downward. Then transpose the harvest and reproduction charts and see if the mean average is consistent on both. Like I said, it's not as simple as we didn't kill as many birds this year.
One other thing that happens that alarms hunters is the dynamic way stocked or reintroduced birds react. The most common response to introduction into a habitat void of birds is to saturate this habitat and the excess spread into new areas. I have seen it happen over and over and over. So, after years of this explosion all of a sudden some areas are super saturated with birds and it seems like they are everywhere. I know a valley you could hear 25 gobblers in about 10-15 years after initial stocking. Hunters make an assumption this is normal, it is not.
Any given habitat will have a carrying capacity, or a level that is annually sustainable. All flocks will decrease back to this level after a few years of saturation. It often appears like a mass disappearance of your birds and often invokes panic among hunters. Biologist understand this and watch the long-term trends. They watch to see if the population is just leveling out or actually falling, it takes time. I saw this in my home area. We had a period in the mid to late 80s there were birds galore in the original stocked areas and everyone was having success. Then within a few years everyone was screaming about losing our flock. Within a short period a valley that you heard 10 gobblers in only had 3-5. The good news is for the last 20 years that valley always has 3-5 gobblers, with only year to year fluctuations. The other good news is there are birds everywhere in all the available habitat. In those boom years you had to hunt limited areas. Now you can throw a dart at a map in our area and it will hit an area that has turkeys. So, I suggest we don't panic and let the biologist work. Sure there are bad trends in some areas, but for the most part the states are working on it.
One thing will often happen is this scenario. State wildlife agencies will give hunters what they want if it will not adversely affect the population, even if it means less harvest. If enough people lobby for a more restricted harvest and the population is stable, they may just reduce your tags to "give hunters what they ask for", even if it's not a necessary management move. Regardless of what we often think, they do realize they serve us and as long as it's not harmful to wildlife, they will give you what the masses ask for.
EVERYONE on the forum needs to read this and take it to heart.
We are entering pivotal times in the turkey hunting world. The last paragraph in particular is very applicable to today's environment. Be careful what you wish/ask for, because if hunting opportunity is taken away, it just may not come back!
Good post, Nathan.
Good Post but if you think the DF&W in NJ will make it better for you as a Hunter I got a bridge I'd like to sell you. If you want things to change for the better Move out of the State Murphy back for another term to control your life.
Of course,I read all the replys. I Stand behind what,I posted. A Small State like New Jersey should have a set Bag Limit of Gobblers then can be Taken. 5 should be the absolute limit.
I don't think any one Spring Turkey Hunter should be able to Kill 6-8-10 or more Gobblers in New Jersey.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on December 04, 2021, 04:16:08 PM
Quote from: eggshell on December 03, 2021, 07:47:18 AM
Evaluating population trends in wildlife is an extremely long term and complex thing for states. Many states approach it on a state wide basis, but I think that may be an error. Doing it as a one regulation fits all means averaging. What's average usually only is optimum for a very limited area. In most areas it's either less or more restricting then necessary. What I am saying is don't be too harsh on state biologist, they usually have good reasons behind what they are doing. However, they do sometimes screw up and sometimes regulations are socially driven. Being informed and involved is your best bet.
On the declining flocks problem, When looking at what the trend is for a population you need to look back at many years of data on harvest, poult survival and habitat changes. Looking at anything less then tens years of datat is usually not indicative. Many times what you find is a graph that looks like a roller coaster, with ups and downs. What is important is what does the trend line look line. Does the regression show a mean/average line sloping upward or sloping Downward. Then transpose the harvest and reproduction charts and see if the mean average is consistent on both. Like I said, it's not as simple as we didn't kill as many birds this year.
One other thing that happens that alarms hunters is the dynamic way stocked or reintroduced birds react. The most common response to introduction into a habitat void of birds is to saturate this habitat and the excess spread into new areas. I have seen it happen over and over and over. So, after years of this explosion all of a sudden some areas are super saturated with birds and it seems like they are everywhere. I know a valley you could hear 25 gobblers in about 10-15 years after initial stocking. Hunters make an assumption this is normal, it is not.
Any given habitat will have a carrying capacity, or a level that is annually sustainable. All flocks will decrease back to this level after a few years of saturation. It often appears like a mass disappearance of your birds and often invokes panic among hunters. Biologist understand this and watch the long-term trends. They watch to see if the population is just leveling out or actually falling, it takes time. I saw this in my home area. We had a period in the mid to late 80s there were birds galore in the original stocked areas and everyone was having success. Then within a few years everyone was screaming about losing our flock. Within a short period a valley that you heard 10 gobblers in only had 3-5. The good news is for the last 20 years that valley always has 3-5 gobblers, with only year to year fluctuations. The other good news is there are birds everywhere in all the available habitat. In those boom years you had to hunt limited areas. Now you can throw a dart at a map in our area and it will hit an area that has turkeys. So, I suggest we don't panic and let the biologist work. Sure there are bad trends in some areas, but for the most part the states are working on it.
One thing will often happen is this scenario. State wildlife agencies will give hunters what they want if it will not adversely affect the population, even if it means less harvest. If enough people lobby for a more restricted harvest and the population is stable, they may just reduce your tags to "give hunters what they ask for", even if it's not a necessary management move. Regardless of what we often think, they do realize they serve us and as long as it's not harmful to wildlife, they will give you what the masses ask for.
EVERYONE on the forum needs to read this and take it to heart.
We are entering pivotal times in the turkey hunting world. The last paragraph in particular is very applicable to today's environment. Be careful what you wish/ask for, because if hunting opportunity is taken away, it just may not come back!
I hate that Eggshell can relate to the last paragraph of his comment, Ohio immediately comes to mind. Judging from the data over 10+ years the decrease in bag limit was meritless and that of grievances from uneducated hunters. My prediction for Ohio in 2022 is the harvest will remain the same but will be spread out amongst a larger pool of hunters rather than those killers who've managed to tag out on 2 birds year after year. Smells like socialism and the "everyone deserves a trophy mindset" has entered the hunting world.
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on December 06, 2021, 12:03:24 AM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on December 04, 2021, 04:16:08 PM
Quote from: eggshell on December 03, 2021, 07:47:18 AM
Evaluating population trends in wildlife is an extremely long term and complex thing for states. Many states approach it on a state wide basis, but I think that may be an error. Doing it as a one regulation fits all means averaging. What's average usually only is optimum for a very limited area. In most areas it's either less or more restricting then necessary. What I am saying is don't be too harsh on state biologist, they usually have good reasons behind what they are doing. However, they do sometimes screw up and sometimes regulations are socially driven. Being informed and involved is your best bet.
On the declining flocks problem, When looking at what the trend is for a population you need to look back at many years of data on harvest, poult survival and habitat changes. Looking at anything less then tens years of datat is usually not indicative. Many times what you find is a graph that looks like a roller coaster, with ups and downs. What is important is what does the trend line look line. Does the regression show a mean/average line sloping upward or sloping Downward. Then transpose the harvest and reproduction charts and see if the mean average is consistent on both. Like I said, it's not as simple as we didn't kill as many birds this year.
One other thing that happens that alarms hunters is the dynamic way stocked or reintroduced birds react. The most common response to introduction into a habitat void of birds is to saturate this habitat and the excess spread into new areas. I have seen it happen over and over and over. So, after years of this explosion all of a sudden some areas are super saturated with birds and it seems like they are everywhere. I know a valley you could hear 25 gobblers in about 10-15 years after initial stocking. Hunters make an assumption this is normal, it is not.
Any given habitat will have a carrying capacity, or a level that is annually sustainable. All flocks will decrease back to this level after a few years of saturation. It often appears like a mass disappearance of your birds and often invokes panic among hunters. Biologist understand this and watch the long-term trends. They watch to see if the population is just leveling out or actually falling, it takes time. I saw this in my home area. We had a period in the mid to late 80s there were birds galore in the original stocked areas and everyone was having success. Then within a few years everyone was screaming about losing our flock. Within a short period a valley that you heard 10 gobblers in only had 3-5. The good news is for the last 20 years that valley always has 3-5 gobblers, with only year to year fluctuations. The other good news is there are birds everywhere in all the available habitat. In those boom years you had to hunt limited areas. Now you can throw a dart at a map in our area and it will hit an area that has turkeys. So, I suggest we don't panic and let the biologist work. Sure there are bad trends in some areas, but for the most part the states are working on it.
One thing will often happen is this scenario. State wildlife agencies will give hunters what they want if it will not adversely affect the population, even if it means less harvest. If enough people lobby for a more restricted harvest and the population is stable, they may just reduce your tags to "give hunters what they ask for", even if it's not a necessary management move. Regardless of what we often think, they do realize they serve us and as long as it's not harmful to wildlife, they will give you what the masses ask for.
EVERYONE on the forum needs to read this and take it to heart.
We are entering pivotal times in the turkey hunting world. The last paragraph in particular is very applicable to today's environment. Be careful what you wish/ask for, because if hunting opportunity is taken away, it just may not come back!
I hate that Eggshell can relate to the last paragraph of his comment, Ohio immediately comes to mind. Judging from the data over 10+ years the decrease in bag limit was meritless and that of grievances from uneducated hunters. My prediction for Ohio in 2022 is the harvest will remain the same but will be spread out amongst a larger pool of hunters rather than those killers who've managed to tag out on 2 birds year after year. Smells like socialism and the "everyone deserves a trophy mindset" has entered the hunting world.
No doubt. I can't believe they dropped it to 1. What was their justification for doing so?
turkeyreaper69. You may be right about OHIO and that is exactly what the masses want and had in mind. They think, "hey if those guys aren't killing their second birds there will be more out there and I will get mine easier". The thing is, from what I've seen, those types still won't put anymore time or effort in, they just think that extra turkey will waltz right up to them. Most of those hunters who think that way, will hunt the first couple days and weekends. However, there will be exactly the same amount of pressure on the same group of birds and the kill will change very little the first 10 days of season. I would guess Most of the second tags are filled after the first 10 days. By that time a lot of those guys are not hunting at all. So I won't be surprised if the kill does drop.
You are right about state management wanting to spread the harvest out to more. They are deluded into thinking it is a way to retain hunters and sell license. I have bad news for them, it won't matter. The fact we are losing hunters has very little to do with success rates, it's a social mindset we are fighting. It's a smoke screen. That's why this move is not a biological strategy, it's manged by, as you say, socialism.
Dirtnap, They said it was becasue of lower poult production and survival. but this doesn't address that at all. This at best means possibly 1-2 more gobblers survive per Ohio township (~23,000 acres). That means nothing to poult survival. It's about what reaper and I said before. They made no changes to dates, zones, fall season, times or length of season.
Quote from: eggshell on December 06, 2021, 08:09:51 AM
turkeyreaper69. You may be right about OHIO and that is exactly what the masses want and had in mind. They think, "hey if those guys aren't killing their second birds there will be more out there and I will get mine easier". The thing is, from what I've seen, those types still won't put anymore time or effort in, they just think that extra turkey will waltz right up to them. Most of those hunters who think that way, will hunt the first couple days and weekends. However, there will be exactly the same amount of pressure on the same group of birds and the kill will change very little the first 10 days of season. I would guess Most of the second tags are filled after the first 10 days. By that time a lot of those guys are not hunting at all. So I won't be surprised if the kill does drop.
You are right about state management wanting to spread the harvest out to more. They are deluded into thinking it is a way to retain hunters and sell license. I have bad news for them, it won't matter. The fact we are losing hunters has very little to do with success rates, it's a social mindset we are fighting. It's a smoke screen. That's why this move is not a biological strategy, it's manged by, as you say, socialism.
Dirtnap, They said it was becasue of lower poult production and survival. but this doesn't address that at all. This at best means possibly 1-2 more gobblers survive per Ohio township (~23,000 acres). That means nothing to poult survival. It's about what reaper and I said before. They made no changes to dates, zones, fall season, times or length of season.
While on the subject of Ohio.
Basically a straight trendline. The harvest spike in 2017 and 2018 is directly attributed to a periodical cicada hatch in 2015 that lead to banner hatch and tons of 2 year olds for 2017 (and 3 year olds for 2018). Those harvest levels were not sustainable, any biologist worth a darn could have told you that.
(https://i.imgur.com/sNGXqPp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ourCN7U.jpg)
Ohio could likely save just as many adult gobblers by simply eliminating jake harvest rather than dropping the bag limit. See below:
(https://i.imgur.com/xdwa8jK.jpg)
deerhunt, you are right, a no jakes regulation would indeed have more impact for the future. I could swallow that as at least having some biological rational. Thanks for posting the stats
Looks like Ohio would have cut out fall hunting and the killing of hens as one of the first logical things to do.
I tend to agree with what you are saying eggshell, they could be "giving us what the masses ask for".
Serious question though, Did the masses really ask for the limit to be lowered to 1?
I don't live in OH so I really don't have my finger on the pulse of what's going on. I have hunted up there quite a bit though and adult gobblers and turkeys in general were thick in the areas I hunted.
QuoteDid the masses really ask for the limit to be lowered to 1?
I guess I am speculating on this as I haven't seen the numbers. But what I do know is very few apposed it and the State rarely changes their minds over a minority view. Sure you'll hear a lot of grumbling next spring but I am pretty sure 98% of those complaining never said a word during the public comment period. I guess I made some assumptions, but I seen comments made from members of certain groups that I know have the Division of Wildlife's ear that wanted something done from a perceived decline. Add to that a lot of talk about the studies done down south on spring season dates and breeding dynamics resonated in the right places.
Remember, I came out of this culture inside the ODW. The old timers are gone, retired. The new breed is hungry to make their mark in the field and "do something big". This is not always bad, but sometimes it is not productive. In a strong management system you have a mix of people that police each other and having some old timers sitting there to reign in the aggressive pups is important. Ohio seen a lot of it's old timers leave in the last 20 years and I fear the new managers are just throwing rocks in the pond with no target, to see if they get a splash.
If you read through my comments in other threads you will see I still support fall hunting, but I wholeheartedly agree that it should be the first thing cut if there truly is a big problem. It would make more sense then reducing the bag limit by one gobbler. I would be disappointed, as I love fall hunting, but I would swallow hard and support it if the science dictated. That's what I want to see data supported decisions, that is all I ask.
The " other end" of the Spectrum of 1 Gobbler is not good either. At least Pennsylvania will give you the option of buying a 2nd Turkey Permit Separately.
The difference between Ohio and New Jersey is Stunning as far as a Gobbler Bag Limit.
That's absolutely ridiculous. In 2020, Ohio reported 17,894 turkeys killed in the spring. and later that year 1,063 in the fall.
You don't need to be a biologist to know that the fall season has no impact at all.
As for banning hunting jakes, why, and how? What difference does it make if you kill a 1 year old tom, or a 4 year old tom? They both do the same thing. It would do the same thing as antler point restrictions, which I am 110% against, and I can't even be in the same room as someone who wants to dictate to others about trophy hunting.
More practically, how are you supposed to enforce such a thing. Are you really going to support a regulation that says a beard must be X inches long? That's outrageous.
I'm not trophy hunting scattergun. I was alluding to the killing of hens in the fall. Isn't it legal to kill hens in Ohio during the fall season?
Quote from: scattergun on December 09, 2021, 07:52:17 PM
As for banning hunting jakes, why, and how? What difference does it make if you kill a 1 year old tom, or a 4 year old tom? They both do the same thing.
The idea behind a no jakes regulation is thay a jake will be doing the "same thing" for longer into the future. The average life span of a gobbler is 5 to 6 years. So a 4 year old has 1-2 breeding years left, the jake 5+. It has nothing to do with trophy size. Just like bag limits and everything else enforcemnet is mostly the honor system, unless caught in a violation.
Quote from: scattergun on December 09, 2021, 07:52:17 PM
As for banning hunting jakes, why, and how? What difference does it make if you kill a 1 year old tom, or a 4 year old tom? They both do the same thing. It would do the same thing as antler point restrictions, which I am 110% against, and I can't even be in the same room as someone who wants to dictate to others about trophy hunting.
More practically, how are you supposed to enforce such a thing. Are you really going to support a regulation that says a beard must be X inches long? That's outrageous.
Banning hunting jakes is simple. Multiple states do it.
Mississippi was the first to enact a "no jakes" rule in the late 90s to improve hunting quality and increase the availability of adult gobblers. It was overwhelming supported by hunters. Mississippi regulations state "a 6" beard OR adult gobbler" as we all know not all adult gobblers will have a 6" beard. Experienced turkey hunters should have no problem identifying an adult gobbler. And in my opinion, ALL turkey hunters should make an effort to learn how identify adult gobblers (full tail fans, wing feathers, other body and behavior characteristics)
Mississippi does allow youths to harvest a jake. Which I support 100%.
"No jakes" is a way to carry-over more birds without taking away hunting opportunity (decreasing season or bag limit). Jakes have the highest survival rate of any sex/age class of turkey. So once they make it through a spring, good chance they will make it to a 2-year old.
Surveys routinely show that hearing gobbling is one of the leading factors to an enjoyable turkey hunt. Protecting jakes is one way to ensure that you can continue to hear gobbling in successive springs. I'd bet the majority of posters on this forum would much rather hear more gobbling than shoot a non-gobbling jake. And I have nothing against harvesting jakes, I've killed a few myself. But the "no-jake" rule is an easy tool that can help improve hunting quality and ensure more adult birds make it to the following year.
Arkansas is another state that has implemented a "no-jakes" rule in recent times. For the same reasons as outlined above. Before taking away so much opportunity, more states should consider it. ESPECIALLY states where 15-25% of the harvest is jakes, like Ohio.
Well said Turkeyhunt88..
Quote from: dirtnap on December 09, 2021, 08:26:47 PM
I'm not trophy hunting scattergun. I was alluding to the killing of hens in the fall. Isn't it legal to kill hens in Ohio during the fall season?
Using the same data, in Fall 2020, Ohio saw 467 adult hens, and 106 juvenile hens killed. The Spring 2020 saw 333 bearded hens killed. Again, do we really need a biologist to see how ridiculous banning the fall hunt to raise populations would be?
As for the banning hunting jakes, absolutely not. Louisiana is the very last state you should ever be using as an example of a hunting model. If you want to start self imposed limits, great. If you want to share your opinion with others who ask, and you can back it up with data, then fine. If you need to use government to force your ethics down others throats, no, it isn't such a good idea. It is never right for anyone to dictate to others how they should hunt.
You might want to hear gobbling. You aren't everybody. Remember that.
A dead jake is just that, a dead jake. I have been greatly disappointed in every jake I have killed since my first three or years of my career. As Kenny Morgan stated in his first book, it is a sin to kill one.
Quote from: silvestris on December 10, 2021, 02:41:01 PM
A dead jake is just that, a dead jake. I have been greatly disappointed in every jake I have killed since my first three or years of my career. As Kenny Morgan stated in his first book, it is a sin to kill one.
And you can think that all you want. You can think it wrong to kill hens. You can think it wrong to kill any turkey that hasn't been called in.
What is wrong, is forcing everybody else to think as you do by way of government enforcement.
Quote from: scattergun on December 10, 2021, 06:10:11 PM
What is wrong, is forcing everybody else to think as you do by way of government enforcement.
Don't think it is a case of forcing everyone to think in a particular way. It's about maintaining a healthy turkey population. Which falls to the government.
i think wanting our government is to strong, our wildlife departments in most states are working for us hunters, I'am gland to know of one guy that is working for my state, is on here, thanks Nathan!
Quote from: scattergun on December 10, 2021, 06:10:11 PM
And you can think that all you want.
It really doesn't matter what I think; what matters is that I do think.
Quote from: Crghss on December 10, 2021, 08:07:15 PM
Quote from: scattergun on December 10, 2021, 06:10:11 PM
What is wrong, is forcing everybody else to think as you do by way of government enforcement.
Don't think it is a case of forcing everyone to think in a particular way. It's about maintaining a healthy turkey population. Which falls to the government.
I can think of 3 things our DNR, GFP, or whatever your state calls them, can help turkey populations without mandating beard length requirements. It frankly makes me very sad to see hunters this willing to just keep dumping regulations like this, and hoping one of them sticks. It is disgusting. I was a waterfowl hunter before I was a turkey hunter. Take a lesson from the waterfowl hunters, don't become them. Duck hunters under stand other duck hunters, and they hate each other.
The great thing about turkey hunting is that we all for the most part get along. I can stop and chat with a stranger on the side of the road in the spring about turkeys for an hour. We all genuinely enjoy it.
As for raising the turkey populations, the good answers are not the easiest solutions. Expanding predator populations of coyote, fox, raccoon, and in the south I can only assume pigs wreak havoc on turkeys. They beat up deer too, but not as bad as the birds. Hunting these is not going to help, the same as our hunting is not declining turkey populations like so many seem to think here. Hunting is simply an ineffective tool for reducing populations. Snow geese are basically a free for all, no limits, no regulations, and they gain numbers every year. We somehow need to step up in trapping. I plan to do a lot more varmint/predator hunting this winter, but it won't do that much. Trapping is a legitimate tool, but with low fur prices, there are not much incentive for most people. I honestly do not know the best way to go about increasing predator harvest. I know I'd like to see a depredation style system, where landowners can call those on a list to trap or hunt their land.
The other thing we have to keep in mind is that our turkey populations are kind of a first time thing. We don't have many decades of data to draw from. Somewhat in the 80's, but really the last 30 years is what our current turkey population stems from. There's more than one study that shows that turkey density, and lack of suitable habitat is a huge driving factor for some declining populations. Not all states are seeing declines mind you. Some are increasing yet. It is very possible we have hit the capacity of turkeys for the land. The only long-term solution if the turkeys we have today are not enough for hunters, is to increase habitat, mainly nesting habitat. I'm a huge proponent of state leasing land for wildlife, CRP and other programs working with farmers, and basically anything that returns land to a natural and effective state for wildlife. Well human populations are growing fast, so something has to give.
Quote from: scattergun on December 10, 2021, 06:10:11 PMI can think of 3 things our DNR, GFP, or whatever your state calls them, can help turkey populations without mandating beard length requirements. It frankly makes me very sad to see hunters this willing to just keep dumping regulations like this, and hoping one of them sticks. It is disgusting. I was a waterfowl hunter before I was a turkey hunter. Take a lesson from the waterfowl hunters, don't become them. Duck hunters under stand other duck hunters, and they hate each other.
The great thing about turkey hunting is that we all for the most part get along. I can stop and chat with a stranger on the side of the road in the spring about turkeys for an hour. We all genuinely enjoy it.
As for raising the turkey populations, the good answers are not the easiest solutions. Expanding predator populations of coyote, fox, raccoon, and in the south I can only assume pigs wreak havoc on turkeys. They beat up deer too, but not as bad as the birds. Hunting these is not going to help, the same as our hunting is not declining turkey populations like so many seem to think here. Hunting is simply an ineffective tool for reducing populations. Snow geese are basically a free for all, no limits, no regulations, and they gain numbers every year. We somehow need to step up in trapping. I plan to do a lot more varmint/predator hunting this winter, but it won't do that much. Trapping is a legitimate tool, but with low fur prices, there are not much incentive for most people. I honestly do not know the best way to go about increasing predator harvest. I know I'd like to see a depredation style system, where landowners can call those on a list to trap or hunt their land.
The other thing we have to keep in mind is that our turkey populations are kind of a first time thing. We don't have many decades of data to draw from. Somewhat in the 80's, but really the last 30 years is what our current turkey population stems from. There's more than one study that shows that turkey density, and lack of suitable habitat is a huge driving factor for some declining populations. Not all states are seeing declines mind you. Some are increasing yet. It is very possible we have hit the capacity of turkeys for the land. The only long-term solution if the turkeys we have today are not enough for hunters, is to increase habitat, mainly nesting habitat. I'm a huge proponent of state leasing land for wildlife, CRP and other programs working with farmers, and basically anything that returns land to a natural and effective state for wildlife. Well human populations are growing fast, so something has to give.
That is a well thought out post and well said. I generally agree.
After commenting on scattergun's post I got to thinking. There's been a lot of discussion about predators and their impact. I then saw an article on a browser's homepage about an anti fur group shaming some celebrity. This triggered a thought in my mind. I wonder if anyone in any agency or University has compared turkey population trends to the fur market decline. The fur market pretty much went bust in the 90s. I know this because I worked in the fur business as a side job. I graded fur in auctions. Our company went bust mid-nineties and we closed down the company. We just weren't profitable enough anymore. By 2,000 raccoons were out of control in my area and mostly across the nation. So, I wonder is there a correlation. I know agencies keep track of turkey flocks and fur sales. I think it would be pretty doable to see if turkey populations started to decline once predators populations exploded due to the fur market bust. I know we handled tens of thousands of pelts in our auctions and it dwindled down to where we had so small a volume buyers wouldn't come. Just for fun here is a picture of me and my grading crew....
If there is one thing I learned from this Thread- it is indeed- All about the Money.
PS- if you want to take a Fall Hen and there are plenty around- take one.
If you want to take that Spring Jake - go right ahead.
Tom it's not just turkey though that's what we're discussing. It's bad and been getting worse. I agree w the limiting ourselves. Leave seed for stock.
There's few turkey around yet we still have numerous permits available. North Jersey at least in my area is deer beat yet does are unlimited. Tuesday I went out w 4 beagles that are run year round and 5 guys in a great cover spot yet not one rabbit started. Even the squirrels are hurting due to last years mast failure yet nothing changes. So much for management in our state. The game Dept are accountants, there's no way no how any sort of management of any resource except of course the bears we can't shoot that are everywhere
I will say the over harvest of turkey is on us though. It's the one animal imo if you know not how to hunt you won't damage the population all that much as you can't be consistent. The experienced guys do the damage. We need to help but easing off temporarily and totally not shooting any hens even when allowed imo.
Quote from: Bowguy on December 16, 2021, 03:39:22 AM
Tom it's not just turkey though that's what we're discussing. It's bad and been getting worse. I agree w the limiting ourselves. Leave seed for stock.
There's few turkey around yet we still have numerous permits available. North Jersey at least in my area is deer beat yet does are unlimited. Tuesday I went out w 4 beagles that are run year round and 5 guys in a great cover spot yet not one rabbit started. Even the squirrels are hurting due to last years mast failure yet nothing changes. So much for management in our state. The game Dept are accountants, there's no way no how any sort of management of any resource except of course the bears we can't shoot that are everywhere
I will say the over harvest of turkey is on us though. It's the one animal imo if you know not how to hunt you won't damage the population all that much as you can't be consistent. The experienced guys do the damage. We need to help but easing off temporarily and totally not shooting any hens even when allowed imo.
Agreed, this years deer season was the worst I have experienced since 1980. I heard one shot heard on opening day. That's real concerning. Only heard 3 shots all week. I only saw 2 small bucks that I passed on all week. I am concerned with the amount of does I am seeing, pretty much none...it seems like everything is on a down swing...
The best solution as,I wrote which hopefully will happen next year is to make " a Max Limit"-- Statewide on the number of Gobblers any 1 Man can take in NJ.
Drop it down to 5 Max or even 3 Gobblers max in NJ.
Quote from: quavers59 on December 16, 2021, 08:03:48 AM
The best solution as,I wrote which hopefully will happen next year is to make " a Max Limit"-- Statewide on the number of Gobblers any 1 Man can take in NJ.
Drop it down to 5 Max or even 3 Gobblers max in NJ.
Yes, I thought this would happen this year. The only thing I could not find relating to the 2021 data was how many permits were actually purchased? There was around 500 less birds recorded, does that coincide with less permits purchased due to hunters returning to work from the COVID era? Would love to match that up....
It's about making MONEY. Here you in North Carolina they raised hunting fees that they made a big deal about not having raised fees in years but added salt water fishing license. You could fish in county of residence with live bait they did away with that. You got a bear tag with license now that cost money. Like what's been said they're selling licenses and permits regardless if your successful or not. Insurance companies are loving it less deer collisions they have to pay for. Not one predator walking the woods is going to pass on a nest of eggs or even the hen sitting it. In the Old Days country folk took care of predators!!!! They killed hawks,raccoons opossum, snakes, foxes pretty much anything after there chickens and livestock. The tree huggers weren't much of an influence as they are today. Here you in North Carolina they reintroduced the Red Wolf. WHY. TREE HUGGERS. A lot of money wasted on this project that could have helped quail and turkey habit. In a five county area we can't shoot coyotes at night trying to protect the wolf. I've seen three coyotes in two nights coming home from work unable to pull the trigger.
I lease land to hunt good numbers of deer and turkeys. I'm on that land right much predator calling. Anything that comes to the call gets shot. It's amazing what comes to a dying rabbit. I also keep corn out during the off season especially during winter to help them get through till spring.
I try doing my part because most sitting at the state capital aren't hunting the peasants land.
That's my two cents.
Amazing moment. First time I've ever agreed w quavers sorta. They ain't gonna change nothing imo though. And we need to leave the hens alone, saving them is more important. Remember that and leave em alone quavers. Can't preach about what's good for the flock and than do what's counterproductive to it.
Bowguy/Foggy Mountain - we have indeed disagreed on another site.
My area of New York is overrun with Hens. So,I took one- case closed.
The situation is completely different in North New Jersey. Not many Turkeys- although the numbers are coming back in the areas,I hunt.
Hoping for a much better Spring in 2022 in New Jersey. And hopefully a milder Winter in North New Jersey.
Its definitely heading downhill. This year I have zero wintering turkeys on my creek. When I bought the place in 2013 I had 18 gobblers and 50+ hens. Last year was 2 gobblers and 10 hens. This year they are gone. I plant milo/millet food plots for the birds. I have winter wheat food plots. Ive increased native grass areas and plum thickets. Its disheartning to see all my blood and sweat not help the birds.
Quote from: nativeks on January 04, 2022, 11:15:19 PM
Its definitely heading downhill. This year I have zero wintering turkeys on my creek. When I bought the place in 2013 I had 18 gobblers and 50+ hens. Last year was 2 gobblers and 10 hens. This year they are gone. I plant milo/millet food plots for the birds. I have winter wheat food plots. Ive increased native grass areas and plum thickets. Its disheartning to see all my blood and sweat not help the birds.
Dang. That is disheartening. I hope things turn around for you in a positive way in your area.
I haven't hunted KS in several years and it was obvious on a downward trend then.