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I remember listening to a Lovett Williams recording a long time ago where he was talking about drumming and he said that while he was unsure how exactly they made the sound he was fairly certain it wasn't a vocalization. He believed it had something to do with a vibration of feathers, I think. Anyhow, I always wondered why he didn't think it was a vocalization. I believed it probably was. Well a bird I was on this season proved me wrong and this is how. Bird drops within about 50yds of me off the roost and I can see him but don't have a shot. I watch him gobble and strut and drum for about an hour and a half constantly. Bird drummed more than any I've ever encountered, at times only drumming. Well at different points the bird drummed WHILE gobbling. I watched him gobble and while that sound was taking place the zoom sound of the drum was also occurring at the same time. I'm still not wholly convinced it can't be taking place internally, but what I do know for sure is that it's not a vocalization, at least not in the way we'd normally think. Still never encountered a definitive answer from scientists about the origin of sound. What are y'all's thoughts?


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I have no idea how he does it, but I'm sure glad he has it figured out.  :)

I've read that as well from Lovett Williams and I'm certainly not one to argue with him. However, my guess is it might also have something to do with the air sac inflating and the somehow control of that. If you ever watch a video of a ruffed grouse drum it seems the source is certainly from them flapping their wings, ruffing their feathers and then inflating their air sac at the end. I think the drum is a combination of that but more to do with the air bladder.

My theory is the spit is them taking air in and the drum comes as the bladder compresses as they strut and makes a base kind of sound. But, that's just my theory and would love to know what it really is.

Quote from: btomlin on May 18, 2021, 04:57:30 PM
I have no idea how he does it, but I'm sure glad he has it figured out.  :)

That answer made me laugh.  Good one.  The drumming is internal and is a forced burp of air. 

Well...Lovett Williams was a renowned biologist but if you knew him, as I did, he also thought very highly of himself to the point of being arrogant. Regarding his analysis of drumming he was totally incorrect. Drumming has nothing to do with feather vibration but is totally vocal. Anyone that has observed multiple birds doing so knows this. Many years ago...preseason while scouting...I called in a jake. It was a very cold morning and as he passed by, drumming, I could see the vapor coming out of his mouth during the Chhhkk followed by the Harommnn. Even though they give a bit of a shake to their feathers when they do the Chhhkk no sound is emitted by the feathers as a result. All sounds are vocal. Absolutely no way can you manipulate feathers to make that sound.

It is internal...feathers can't produce that low frequency. I don't know if it's the crop, the vocal chords, or somewhere in the birds guts, but it's definitely an internally produced sound.

Just compare the sound on your cell phone to the sound of a subwoofer in a box. The sub needs the box to produce the deep tones. Feathers ain't gonna make that drumming sound, although they do shake when the bird drums.


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Quote from: FLGobstopper on May 18, 2021, 05:16:22 PM
I've read that as well from Lovett Williams and I'm certainly not one to argue with him. However, my guess is it might also have something to do with the air sac inflating and the somehow control of that. If you ever watch a video of a ruffed grouse drum it seems the source is certainly from them flapping their wings, ruffing their feathers and then inflating their air sac at the end. I think the drum is a combination of that but more to do with the air bladder.

My theory is the spit is them taking air in and the drum comes as the bladder compresses as they strut and makes a base kind of sound. But, that's just my theory and would love to know what it really is.

You and me kind of have the same theory, and likewise mine comes from thinking of ruffed grouse. The bird mentioned above never spit and drummed together. For about an hour and a half he just drummed and gobbled (as said, sometimes at the same time). After that he only spit. No gobbling. No drumming. Just strutting around spitting like a manager in a dugout. Bird changed the way I thought about those two sounds.


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Guys...don't even think about it. Just read mine and Catman529's posts and let it go. It's TOTALLY VOCAL. If you disagree the just go out and hear/observe birds drumming. Subject closed.

Quote from: Turkeyman on May 18, 2021, 05:52:27 PM
Guys...don't even think about it. Just read mine and Catman529's posts and let it go. It's TOTALLY VOCAL. If you disagree the just go out and hear/observe birds drumming. Subject closed.

Catman didn't say it was vocal. He said he thought it was internal. I agree with that. It can't be vocal if a bird is capable of gobbling and drumming at the same time which I observed (the whole point of the OP). I seriously doubt you've observed more birds drumming than the biologists who still can't pinpoint the cause. That to say, all are theories. Yours just as valid as mine, but theories just the same.


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I don't know exactly how but I've seen it, heard it, and felt it enough to know it's vocal and if he does it in front of me very long I'll let the air out of him.

Quote from: Gooserbat on May 18, 2021, 06:17:50 PM
I don't know exactly how but I've seen it, heard it, and felt it enough to know it's vocal and if he does it in front of me very long I'll let the air out of him.

I guess we need to define what we mean by vocal. Do we mean that sound comes from his mouth? That's how I meant vocal in the context of this post. And in that case I know it's inaccurate as the bird I observed gobbled and drummed simultaneously. Not once but multiple times over an extended period. Not one sound right before the other, or one sound right after. Simultaneous. Cold enough and close enough I could see his breath when he gobbled, and I know for a fact the two sounds were taking place at the same time.


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Turkeyman and catman nailed it.
Spot on about Lovett Williams and his arrogance too I might add.

Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on May 18, 2021, 06:35:47 PM
Turkeyman and catman nailed it.
Spot on about Lovett Williams and his arrogance too I might add.

They're not saying the same thing so I'm confused. Turkeyman says its vocal as in he saw the breath come out of a bird's mouth (although by his description it sounds like the breath was with regard to the spit and not the drum), while Catman said he believes it's internal in nature (which I absolutely agree with). I didn't know Lovett. Might have been an arrogant a$$hole for all I know, but that has no bearing on my question other than to have stated what he hypothesized. I don't agree with him. I think it's internal. Not anything to do with feathers. Not vocal out of the mouth either, but internal. Imagine your stomach growling while you're talking, one guttural and one vocal. All I know for certain after what I witnessed multiple times is that the drum zoom most certainly doesn't come out of its mouth.


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This is what he does.... when a gobbler spits he forces air out in a burst. You can actually see spit come out of the beak of the gobbler. Then the drum follows instantly. The air of the drum is also forced out the body like he is exhaling. The vibration comes from deep within the chest. It's not really known if that vibrate comes from their throat or from their chest.

IMO, it's 100% vocal. If you've ever heard a turkey gobble up close and personal, you should have heard the deep sound at the back end of the gobble (on an Eastern in the deep south). I believe whatever it is that produces that deep sound is what produces the drum. Two things I can tell you for a fact, #1. I can hear drumming very well AND #2. I'm thankful that I can.

I'll take a different stance on this.
I believe the "spit" is a rapid INHALATION of air, not air being exhaled.
After this quick huff to inhale air, the drum is merely a turkeys version of a deep chest humming noise similar to the way a human would hum at the lowest possible frequency.

Watch the way a gobbler tucks his beak towards his throat during a loud spit sound. This motion leads me to further believe it is an inhale motion and not an exhale.

I don't know much about anything nor how he produces the spit or the drum.    I do feel confident it's air being either inhaled or exhaled rapidly some type of way.  Not sure which one. 
I did hear a turkey make a noise this spring I've never heard before.  It was an audible type sigh.  I know that sounds crazy.  It was like he exhaled a deep breath.  He kinda was stretching a bit when I heard it.  Never heard that before.   


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Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 18, 2021, 04:40:23 PM
I remember listening to a Lovett Williams recording a long time ago where he was talking about drumming and he said that while he was unsure how exactly they made the sound he was fairly certain it wasn't a vocalization. He believed it had something to do with a vibration of feathers, I think. Anyhow, I always wondered why he didn't think it was a vocalization. I believed it probably was. Well a bird I was on this season proved me wrong and this is how. Bird drops within about 50yds of me off the roost and I can see him but don't have a shot. I watch him gobble and strut and drum for about an hour and a half constantly. Bird drummed more than any I've ever encountered, at times only drumming. Well at different points the bird drummed WHILE gobbling. I watched him gobble and while that sound was taking place the zoom sound of the drum was also occurring at the same time. I'm still not wholly convinced it can't be taking place internally, but what I do know for sure is that it's not a vocalization, at least not in the way we'd normally think. Still never encountered a definitive answer from scientists about the origin of sound. What are y'all's thoughts?


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I agree.
In Shane's video, at min 2:35, the last gobbler sounds like he's gobbling and drumming at the same time.( I had earbuds in while listening)

I don't know how he does it though lol.

https://youtu.be/oQDSrIUaQ2U


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Quote from: Chordeiles on May 19, 2021, 03:32:00 AM
I agree.
In Shane's video, at min 2:35, the last gobbler sounds like he's gobbling and drumming at the same time.( I had earbuds in while listening)

I don't know how he does it though lol.

https://youtu.be/oQDSrIUaQ2U


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I can't tell in that video, but with the bird I'm referencing it was very, very clear that the two sounds were happening simultaneously so I know for a fact it happens. The first time it happened I was stunned and thought I'd misheard or that there were multiple birds. The second, third, fourth, fifth time it happened it became clear to me he was doing it intentionally and it changed the way I'd thought of that sound. I wish the folks saying it's a vocalization—if they mean that as in the sound is coming out of the birds mouth—would address what I observed. How could a bird make both those sounds at once from his mouth?

A lot of folks also seem to correlate spitting and drumming, and, yes, most times the two go together. But they're most certainly not dependent on one another. Birds will just drum and drum sometimes and not gobble or spit. This bird after gobbling and drumming for an hour and half just spit. Made no other sounds. Just walked around and spit over and over.


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https://youtu.be/UI5eEApUXhQ (https://youtu.be/UI5eEApUXhQ)
Go to the :41 mark and watch.  I looks to me like the gobbler gets bigger, as in an inhalation, during the spit and then the gobbler gets smaller during the drum, as in an exhalation. There is a vibration or shaking of feathers but I don't believe that is creating the sound. To answer Chester's question after watching this video it appears to me that the drumming is a sound internal to the turkey and is not coming out of the mouth.  If that sound comes out of the turkey's mouth wouldn't that air that creates the sound have to pass over the bird's vocal chords? Making it impossible to gobble and drum at the same time?

I had a pet wild turkey when I was a kid. He would drum while standing on my lap. I could feel the vibration in his chest. Not sure how they do it but it is a sound and I don't believe it comes from the vocal cords.

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Quote from: Greg Massey on May 18, 2021, 08:13:51 PM
This is what he does.... when a gobbler spits he forces air out in a burst. You can actually see spit come out of the beak of the gobbler. Then the drum follows instantly. The air of the drum is also forced out the body like he is exhaling. The vibration comes from deep within the chest. It's not really known if that vibrate comes from their throat or from their chest.

I agree with this. I don't see how he could make the spitting sound inhaling. I think the spit sound is the air rapidly leaving him then he shuts it almost completely off tucks his head and slowly releases it. Ive seen their heads change several different colors while doing this. And I think its from the air pressure building in his head as he slowly releases.  Same way as we keep our mouth shut and try to force air out but not let it. Just my two cents.                     

I think it comes from the other end and he is actually passing gas 8)

All of those theories are wrong.  Toms have a built-in 15" Kicker sub.  You can't argue it...it's science.

I say it's air being pushed out his Kraw area causing vibration .

Quote from: stinkpickle on May 19, 2021, 06:10:26 PM
All of those theories are wrong.  Toms have a built-in 15" Kicker sub.  You can't argue it...it's science.

if i hear 'nothin' but a g thang' coming in, i know i have no chance

Quote from: Happy on May 19, 2021, 10:39:06 AM
I had a pet wild turkey when I was a kid. He would drum while standing on my lap. I could feel the vibration in his chest. Not sure how they do it but it is a sound and I don't believe it comes from the vocal cords.

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That's fascinating!


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They use their drumsticks.LOLLLLLLL

Quote from: jhoward11 on May 20, 2021, 01:55:28 PM
They use their drumsticks.LOLLLLLLL

:z-winnersmiley:

Quote from: Gooserbat on May 18, 2021, 06:17:50 PM
I don't know exactly how but I've seen it, heard it, and felt it enough to know it's vocal and if he does it in front of me very long I'll let the air out of him.

Gooserbat you get 2 thumbs up!

Good discussion here

Quote from: Howie g on May 19, 2021, 08:51:44 PM
I say it's air being pushed out his Kraw area causing vibration .

Bingo.

The drum comes from the crop that has been inflated with air. The gobble comes from his lungs. That is how he can do both at once. Just theory on my part, but that's what I believe is going on.

Turkeys are galliformes (chicken like birds). When you think of other galliformes like sage grouse, sharptails, prairie chickens, blue grouse, etc...these birds have air sacs they use to attract mates. Why not a turkey using an air sac? But the turkey is a large bird and still needs to fly. So they could have evolved so their crop doubles as the air sac saving weight for flying. Just another theory of mine.

I don't know how it's done, if it came from the air in the crop, then they could only do it when it's completely empty, which first thing in the morning it usually is. I know gobblers don't eat much during breeding season, but they do eat some, it may come from the crop, but if there's any food in it, I don't know how that would work.
I think its a mystery, no one had figured out, and it should stay that way

I know when I try to mimic the sound it is easier to do the spit on the exhale, cut it off then vibrate my body to create the vibrating. I have seen featherless domestic turkeys strut and their remaining tail feathers are definitely shaking or vibrating. Perhaps the vibrating is an extension of the energy used when exhaling to drum. The sound has a tailing-off sound as if running out of air.

The spit is very much vocalized, but the drumming is certainly an internal sound. Their diaphragm has to be playing a big part of it.

 :D  Interesting discussion here,...with lots of theories!  For me, the question has always been about whether the vocal chords ("voice box") came into play in any of the sounds being made in the spit and drum.  To this day, I am not sure one way or the other. 

I do know there are three distinct sounds a gobbler makes in this process: 
The spit,...which I couldn't say for sure is caused by inhaling, exhaling, or by a burst of air through the voice box. 
The drum,...which I feel is a function of some sort of internal expansion of air in the chest area in some sort of body part that can inflate,...whether it be the lungs, the crop, the fat deposit, or a combination of any or all three. ...Not sure if I would call it a "vocalization" as relating to using the same mechanism (vocal chords) used in gobbling or other "turkey talk". 
The third sound is definitely the sound of the feathers "rustling" during the strut when the gobbler "expands" and "stiffens" his feathers. That is a more subtle sound, but it is certainly part of the entire display. 

From eating wild onions. Spit is a hiccup and the drum is indigestion.  That's why I scatter Rolaids and Tums around my tree....wait would that be considered baiting???  Honestly, the Ruffed Grouse comparison holds the best answer. Its internal definitely not feathers. The humming comparison is a good analogy as well.

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No way feathers are making that noise!


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The deep guttural rattle that you hear at the end of a gobble when he is really close, has a vibration to it  like drumming. You can definitely feel it if he's close enough, maybe the two sounds are related on how he makes them. Vocal and internal at the same time.

I don't care how he does it. I just wish that I could hear it. I've never heard a gobbler drum.

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Quote from: falltoms on June 20, 2022, 07:22:27 AM
I don't know how it's done, if it came from the air in the crop, then they could only do it when it's completely empty, which first thing in the morning it usually is. I know gobblers don't eat much during breeding season, but they do eat some, it may come from the crop, but if there's any food in it, I don't know how that would work.
I think its a mystery, no one had figured out, and it should stay that way

Why does the crop have to be completely empty? Why not partially empty?

I haven't shot a whole lot of gobblers late in the evening over the years, maybe 15 or so??? I always check the crop of a gobbler I get later in the morning, afternoon, or evening. Not much in the crops late morning or the afternoon. I expected the late evening toms to have a decent amount of food in their crops, but that is not what I have found in my small sample size. I think the most I have found is a crop about 1/3 full.

Here is a tom's crop filled with air. I pumped some air in it with a compressor and while it is stretched out, it is not overly stretched. Pretty big and lots of room for some air and some food. Now I don't think the crop gets that big inside a turkey, but its not much smaller either. Never seen a turkey crop absolutely full of food, but I have seen plenty of ruffed grouse crops very full of food. They are much bigger than you would think relative to the size of the bird.

Quote from: Treerooster on June 20, 2022, 11:39:28 PM

I always check the crop of a gobbler I get later in the morning, afternoon, or evening. Not much in the crops late morning or the afternoon. I expected the late evening toms to have a decent amount of food in their crops, but that is not what I have found in my small sample size. I think the most I have found is a crop about 1/3 full.

Here is a tom's crop filled with air. I pumped some air in it with a compressor and while it is stretched out, it is not overly stretched. Pretty big and lots of room for some air and some food. Now I don't think the crop gets that big inside a turkey, but its not much smaller either. Never seen a turkey crop absolutely full of food, but I have seen plenty of ruffed grouse crops very full of food. They are much bigger than you would think relative to the size of the bird.

You have obviously delved into this topic to a greater degree than most of us, I think, Treerooster.   :D
Although I would not be so bold as to make a declaration of fact, I would surmise that your theory that the crop comes into play in this whole "turkey strutting noise" discussion is very possibly accurate. 

As for the tendency of gobblers to stuff their crops full to the brim, I would agree that I have rarely seen a full crop on a gobbler when dissecting the bird post mortem.  I must also readily admit that I have not been as conscientious about investigating that particular aspect of turkey dismemberment as you are.  However, there has been at least one occasion that a gobbler's crop was so full that it caught my attention during the butchering process.  That bird was stuffed full of dandelion flowers to a point that, if indeed the crop comes into play in drumming, he probably would have had to regurgitate some of them to do it!   :D

Quote from: GobbleNut on June 21, 2022, 08:03:37 AM

Quote from: Treerooster on June 20, 2022, 11:39:28 PM

I always check the crop of a gobbler I get later in the morning, afternoon, or evening. Not much in the crops late morning or the afternoon. I expected the late evening toms to have a decent amount of food in their crops, but that is not what I have found in my small sample size. I think the most I have found is a crop about 1/3 full.

Here is a tom's crop filled with air. I pumped some air in it with a compressor and while it is stretched out, it is not overly stretched. Pretty big and lots of room for some air and some food. Now I don't think the crop gets that big inside a turkey, but its not much smaller either. Never seen a turkey crop absolutely full of food, but I have seen plenty of ruffed grouse crops very full of food. They are much bigger than you would think relative to the size of the bird.

You have obviously delved into this topic to a greater degree than most of us, I think, Treerooster.   :D
Although I would not be so bold as to make a declaration of fact, I would surmise that your theory that the crop comes into play in this whole "turkey strutting noise" discussion is very possibly accurate. 

As for the tendency of gobblers to stuff their crops full to the brim, I would agree that I have rarely seen a full crop on a gobbler when dissecting the bird post mortem.  I must also readily admit that I have not been as conscientious about investigating that particular aspect of turkey dismemberment as you are.  However, there has been at least one occasion that a gobbler's crop was so full that it caught my attention during the butchering process.  That bird was stuffed full of dandelion flowers to a point that, if indeed the crop comes into play in drumming, he probably would have had to regurgitate some of them to do it!   :D

Call me a "Bird Nerd" and I might blush with embarrassment from such a compliment.  :toothy12:

I'm just jealous that you guys can hear so well. After 34 years in the fire department, I've got pretty bad hearing loss, as do a lot of my friends who were in the profession.
Usually by the time I hear drumming they're strutting into shooting range, and it's time to get down to business, not do a scientific study. The only time I hear drumming from far off is on cool, crisp mornings in relatively open woods.
I do however, tend to give more credence to the theory that drumming is internal and not vocal (through the vocal cords). In my opinion, the drum is just too deep and bass to come from the voice box. Especially when most other turkey noises that we do know are vocal are much higher pitched than the drum. As a couple of guys have commented, you can not only hear the drum, but if he's close enough, you can feel it. I don't think the feathers or the shaking create the noise. I believe they are a side effect of whatever internal action makes the drum.
Then again, I'm not a biologist. I'm just a hunter with hearing loss.

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Gobblers only do the drumming when they are in full strut

IMO I think the gobblers inhale air or ...hold onto Thier breath into Thier body to puff them selfs up ...when the drumming sound occurs you see a bit if "shuddering" ...I think the sound is a form of slow air belch escaping from Thier body past Thier vocal chords

Cool thread. It appears from this article, they start strutting and drumming when they are very young. I wonder if any of these little guys ever came in strutting to our calls, and we never saw them...lol

I'll get back to ya'll what my thoughts are on the subject after my visit to my Ex's, Old #1
She did lot of squawking so the process might be similar.
Can't rightly say right now since I try my best to avoid her at all costs but for the sake of this discussion, I'll take one for the team. I'll go there and observe, take notes and file a report here at OG if I make it back unscaved!
I don't know exactly how she did it, but I've seen it, heard it, and felt it enough to know it's vocal, yes very vocal!
I know in the past when I ruffled her feathers, she would get to spittin, stompin' and a drumin' forcing air in and out. You can actually see spit coming out depending on the situation, or what she felt I did wrong.
She would take a deep breath to puff up before she would let go and when the drumming sound occurred I remember a bit of "shuddering" at the end as well. I think the sound is a form of air escaping her body past the vocal cords, as if running out of air. There was a deep guttural rattle as well. I would hear this  rattle at the end of her squawking if I was close, and it had somewhat of a vibration to it like drumming. Yes, I could definitely feel it if I was close enough, so maybe the two sounds are related!
Here again depending on the situation she could expand those lungs rather quickly and continue the squawkin', spittin' and a drumin' for an extending period of time!
It's amazing how they do that!

Quote from: Turkeybutt on June 22, 2022, 01:37:09 PM
I'll get back to ya'll what my thoughts are on the subject after my visit to my Ex's, Old #1
She did lot of squawking so the process might be similar.
Can't rightly say right now since I try my best to avoid her at all costs but for the sake of this discussion, I'll take one for the team. I'll go there and observe, take notes and file a report here at OG if I make it back unscaved!
I don't know exactly how she did it, but I've seen it, heard it, and felt it enough to know it's vocal, yes very vocal!
I know in the past when I ruffled her feathers, she would get to spittin, stompin' and a drumin' forcing air in and out. You can actually see spit coming out depending on the situation, or what she felt I did wrong.
She would take a deep breath to puff up before she would let go and when the drumming sound occurred I remember a bit of "shuddering" at the end as well. I think the sound is a form of air escaping her body past the vocal cords, as if running out of air. There was a deep guttural rattle as well. I would hear this  rattle at the end of her squawking if I was close, and it had somewhat of a vibration to it like drumming. Yes, I could definitely feel it if I was close enough, so maybe the two sounds are related!
Here again depending on the situation she could expand those lungs rather quickly and continue the squawkin', spittin' and a drumin' for an extending period of time!
It's amazing how they do that!

:TooFunny: :TooFunny:  They don't have to be "exes" to make those same sounds!  ;D :angel9:

True, they don't!

Quote from: Old Gobbler on June 21, 2022, 08:33:32 PM
Gobblers only do the drumming when they are in full strut

I beg to differ. Definitive statements are dangerous when referencing any animal behavior.

I've watched gobblers, on two different occasions and hundreds of miles apart, drum loudly without going into strut. Each time the gobbler was within 60yds of me in plain sight. One was in a field and one in the woods. They were both standing erect and when they would drum, their head would pull back slightly, their wingtips would drop a couple inches, and the tip of their tail feathers would rise a couple inches. Maybe into a 1/4 strut at most, but certainly not a full strut. Immediately after drumming they would raise their head and look/listen intently for a response from the hen they thought was in the area. Their behavior suggested to me that they were expecting a response from the noise. In both of those instances, there was no noticeable "spit" associated with the drum, just the low frequency reverberating drum.

I think gobblers use this "vocalization" even more in areas where increased hunting pressure has curtailed gobbling.


Generally, when a gobbler is in full strut, there's a lot going on that's making noise. They're probably sucking in air to puff out their, lungs, crop, and chest, they're dragging their wing feathers along the ground, they're making some sort of reverberation in their chest, and they could well be making additional noises with their vocal chords.

Add to all of this, as observers we are never of sound mind when in the presence of a strutting gobbler... so the world may never know.

I've seen gobblers drum with out strutting a few times also .

For those that say a bird was not strutting when drumming, what do you mean by that?  Tail fan is not up?  To me, strutting is tail-fan up, wings dragging...  But I would think a bird could still drum if his fan was not up???  Would wings down and dragging, but fan not up, still be strutting?

I have always thought that drumming was a vibration of air from outside the lungs...  (I always figured the crop)  Every bird that I have watched drumming, the bird has a full chest cavity, with wings "down and quivering"...  It does not seem to be something produced from the vocal cords of the bird (as gobbling is).

I figured it was the crop, as there is no other bird I have ever cleaned with a more difficult crop to remove than a turkey.